patrick.net

Onvacation says

DeficitHawk says

'take the jab or you cant work here'.

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

Dooood! Why didn't you steer her towards filing a religious accommodation request? It's been extensively discussed on this very site.

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly when he starts killing people with the vaxx, ventilators, Remdesivir, suppression of ivermectin, etc.

Fauci is in control of a vast amount of funding for scientific research, so there is little willingness among scientists to stand up and speak out. The official scientific "evidence" will always be on the side of the people funding the creation of that "evidence".

And then there's the timing issue. Do you wait years for an election as people are killed by Fauci's policies, knowing that whoever is elected probably cannot touch Fauci anyway?

Patrick says

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly

How is "Dr" Fuckyouchi immune from the firing by the President? I believe the fucker could be fired at any second.

Patrick says

Not every time, THIS one time. The vaxx mandates are the worst crime against the largest number of people ever committed. It is THE moral issue which divides the people who would collaborate with genocide from those who would resist genocide.

Sure for you its this one time, this vaccine mandate for just covid is the straw that broke the back. But for the next guy, maybe measles vaccine. or for the next guy, maybe nevada senate race fraud allegations. or for the next guy who knows what it is. I guess Im saying if you cant get behind the democratic principles on the whole, then every random nutjob will up on the clocktower with a rifle over his own personal "THIS one time".

Patrick says

I think the subconscious realization that they have participated in true evil on a mind-boggling level make them uncomfortable, so they don't want to think about it.

I will offer you a different explanation. Most mainstreamers and democrats have seen a few unfounded conspiracy theories coming from echo chambers like this, and attempts to engage in discussion result in impasse and inability to agree on basic facts. I was at that point of hopelessness earlier in this thread myself. So what to do? simple, dismiss the entire crowd as tinfoil hat folks and dont bother talking to them. Certainly several people on this thread advocated the same course of action regarding discussions with me!. I am certain if I told my leftie friends that I was having conversations on this thread they'd tell me I am wasting my time with loonies.

The true answer here is mainstreamers and democrats have dismissed you as crazy just as this community has dismissed mainstream community as crazy.

I really think you should deeply consider that this is the main factor if you want to improve the situation.

Patrick says

The total popular House vote was majority Republican. That's not minority.

The election of Trump was not getting beat. Not that I'm much of a Trump fan, but his historic win in 2016 energized a lot of people who have been harmed for decades by, for example, the outsourcing of US manufacturing to China.

Thats fine. Win some lose some. I am not questioning the results, and I am not getting out my microscope to look for anomalies. But Patrick, tell me... how many hours have you and the others on this thread spent pouring over election result anomalies in the republican house wins? Is it the same as the Trump loss?

I do not mean that "people who vote republican" are a minority. Thats close to half and half or maybe only slight minorty. The minority positions I mean are:

"Trump Won" (Most people dont believe this, maybe 30%)
"Covid was a hoax or conspiracy" (Most people do not believe this. maybe 25%)

Hugh_Mongous says

Patrick says

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly

How is "Dr" Fuckyouchi immune from the firing by the President? I believe the fucker could be fired at any second.

I recall articles calling for the power of the president to fire anyone in the executive branch, implying that that power does not exist, especially with respect to Fauci.

Patrick says

I recall articles calling for the power of the president to fire anyone in the executive branch, implying that that power does not exist, especially with respect to Fauci.

The president can fire political appointees, but not civil servants.

I have a simple question. If everyone you know who got the vaxx died, but the government kept denying it, would you still stick to voting alone as a way to oppose the vaxx?

I want to know what it would take to turn you into me.

I tried to converse with a democrat last year on several topics and all I heard was "this was debunked" and "already debunked" offering no explanation only emotion. I guess if they all have their abortions there will be less of these idiots around to put the country into ruin.

DeficitHawk says

I guess my take on this all is that if you have a minority view on things like this, you will sometimes be forced to endure some inconvenience by the majority. It is part of democracy.

We don't live in a democracy! We live in a constitutional republic based on liberty, justice, and the rights of the individual.

You seem to be lobbying for a country of rulers who restrict liberty. We are already living in a country of injustice.

Patrick says

I have a simple question. If everyone you know who got the vaxx died, but the government kept denying it, would you still stick to voting alone as a way to oppose the vaxx?

I want to know what it would take to turn you into me.

Yes, Patrick at that point I would turn in to you. But the information I am seeing looks nothing remotely like that scenario.

Yes even I will wind up at the top of the water tower if you push me far enough.... but I am frankly willing to live in the give and take of democracy and I realize I wont get my way all the time. I am a moderate, living SF Bay area which is very left. I often dont get my way. I know this. I know why I live in the area anyway, its the decision I have made. I want the police in my city to do more to prevent petty crime, but I dont get the response I want from my city officials. Im not going up the water tower over those issues. But I do vote. and I do communicate with my city officials directly over my concerns.

OK, we actually agree on the principle of defending basic human rights against a government/corporate machine which is out of control.

What if, say, 0.1 percent of vaxx recipients died or were severely injured, yet the government kept denying it?

I think that’s approximately how it is now.

This conversation is nice and all... however, we all need to realize that we are living in times of deceit. There are literal armies foreign and domestic (well-funded, mind you) deployed to sway public opinion and it has been particularly noticeable over the past several years. Credit to those who realized this long before me. The shills will do anything to throw you off, make you doubt there is malicious intent. No need to go into the various techniques. OK, now I will butt out.

DeficitHawk says

"Trump Won" (Most people dont believe this, maybe 30%)
"Covid was a hoax or conspiracy" (Most people do not believe this. maybe 25%)

Would you agree that there was a lot of fraud in 2020?

Will you acknowledge that 75% of Covid deaths were amongst those 65 or older?

Facts are facts. If numbers and logic won't change your mind then you are probably a victim of propaganda. The fact that you are trying to debate, the fact that you are bringing redacted (wonder why?) documents in an attempt to support your ideas, the fact that you are trying, shows that your eyes may yet be opened.

Patrick says

What if, say, 0.1 percent of vaxx recipients died or were severely injured, yet the government kept denying it?

This would be a high rate of side effects, only acceptable if the severity of the disease is higher still. covid is probably higher than 0.1 percent, but only by a few times, and I'd want a better risk/benefit in a vaccine.

But I think you are alleging that there is a high rate of side effects than studies show, people know about this, and a cover up going on. I dont see the evidence for it. and when I've looked, I've gotten lost in tin foil hat world of non credible information, and given up. So it puts me back to the same way of thinking as the Trump election theft allegations. I dismiss it as conspiracy theory after reasonable effort to check... after the first few leads turn to be non credible or debunked, it is deminishing returns to keep following up on more. At some point, I have to get on with my life.

Let me put it this way: I dont really believe there are conspiracies going on regarding covid or elections. But sure I'd allow that maybe there are and Im wrong. Im not going to spend much of my personal effort doing this research, because I dont see much likelyhood of a return on that effort. I generally regard the people who tout the conspiracies as tin-foil hatters. BUT I am glad the tin-foil hatters exist, because every once in a while the tin-foil hatters are right. If the tin-foil hatters are right, I expect they'd be able to put forth a cogent explanation that makes sense, is grounded in evidence, and isnt readily debunked.. and if such an explanation were to come forward and gain visibility, I'd want to make sure to know about it. Its one of the reasons I read this forum.

But until I see something that breaks through the level non-credible/debunkable/circumstantial 'only makes sense to a tin foil hatter'... I will just go on living my life. I dont have time to do otherwise.

Onvacation says

Will you acknowledge that 75% of Covid deaths were amongst those 65 or older?

Sure, this is a disease that disproportionately affects older people, diabetics, and a few other risk factors. I dont have the percentages broken down by risk factor handy, but sure that's the truth as I understand it.

DeficitHawk says

But I think you are alleging that there is a high rate of side effects than studies show, people know about this, and a cover up going on.

I don't think the cover up is people whispering in a room, at least not outside the CDC/FDA/NIH management.

I think the cover up is mostly self-censorship by doctors out of fear of being classified as a conspiracy theorist.

So, for example, the woman I know who got myocarditis after the vaxx was told it would not be entered into VAERS, and her conclusion was that the doctors were afraid of exactly that.

And now it has reached the extreme of doctors in California being told by law that they may not report or repeat what they see with their own eyes or they will be punished for spreading "disinformation".

You admit this has a strong chilling effect on reporting anything contrary to the Pfauci-pfunded studies, right?

DeficitHawk says

Sure, this is a disease that disproportionately affects older people, diabetics, and a few other risk factors. I dont have the percentages broken down by risk factor handy, but sure that's the truth as I understand it.

Can't change age. You can change health 9 out of 10 times. Yes there are diseases that you can't control. Is that worth shutting down the world for 95% of humans though? I say no.

Patrick says

And now it has reached the extreme of doctors in California being told by law that they may not report or repeat what they see with their own eyes or they will be punished for spreading "disinformation".

Yes, I agree these types of laws can be an overreaction, and maybe detrimental. On the other hand, at the practitioner level, you do want a standard of care to exist and not have your medical advice depend on the political leanings of your doctor. I dont ask my docs if they are left or right leaning, and I dont really want to have to... People are worried it is getting to the point that if I go to a Trumper doctor i'll be given horse tranqs, while if I got to a leftie doctor I'll be given steroids or whatever else and the standard of care will become divided along political lines. But I think this type of legislation is an overreaction.

DeficitHawk says

Onvacation says

Will you acknowledge that 75% of Covid deaths were amongst those 65 or older?

Sure, this is a disease that disproportionately affects older people, diabetics, and a few other risk factors. I dont have the percentages broken down by risk factor handy, but sure that's the truth as I understand it.

Actually age is hardly relevant, health is. Plenty of centennial with sniffles. But statistically people become less healthy as they age. So what's more satanic than killing children, adolescents and adults at the peak of their lives so they are less likely to transmit a cold virus for 3-6 months max? You know it's evil bulllshit of you look at countries (most of Africa, Haiti etc.) that have close to zero vaccination rates and far less deaths and hospitalizations than pretty much every jabbed country. Math doesn't lie, it just is

@DeficitHawk

Interested in comparing personal experience, first and second hand only. And second hands is from people we trust. I personally don't know a single person who didn't take the shots and had any serious medical issues as a result. However, this is what I know personally about the health of several people who did take the shots. My friend's grandfather, who was double jabbed, when that used to be all there was, died of what the hospital called Covid. My massage therapists husband, after taking his shots, had an unprecedented growth in his cancer, which was being checked monthly by UCSD. He died shortly after. My upstairs neighbor, after getting her booster(third shot), was in the hospital for several months, suffered some kind of stroke, required a cane to get around for months after being discharged. My massage therapist was so sick after her first shot, she refused to do a second. Several of my co-workers have contracted what they call Covid multiple times, and one of them told me his symptoms were far from mild. They had all taken every shot up the the time they got sick.

Myself and my family visited Florida, Michigan, Arizona, and moved back to California, all during what I call the scamdemic. We almost never masked, did not wash our hands more, were exposed to sick people, and our youngest daughter was less than a year old. My oldest daughter went to several raves, concerts, and events that people her age normally attend. None of us ever took a single shot. We all got Covid around the same time, about a year ago. It was fatiguing and annoying, but we've all had flu's that were way worse. You know, the kind where you promise to be a better person if you can only get recover. Yeah, never felt the need to pray during our mild, but long lasting, and annoying sickness.

Interested in how your experience compares?

DeficitHawk says

I've gotten lost in tin foil hat world of non credible information,

AKA "the rabbit hole". People smart enough to set up the flat earth website don't believe in flat earth, but they can lure some idiots in. It is so bad out there that it really is hard to tell what is true and what is false. I am not sure if there is anyone that REALLY believes the world is flat because evidence. Many people still believe the vax is "safe and effective" despite evidence.

Remember how the goal posts changed, "two weeks to flatten the curve", "Wear Masks", "the vax will be here soon and you will be immune from contagion and spreading..." Less than 3% of the population has taken the bivalent booster.

The biggest problem with mis/disinformation is the fact that the government, corporations, and media lie to us. So many "conspiracy theories" could be put to rest if the government would just release information.

But they won't.

Welcome to the real world where we can hear directly from the doctors that invented mRNA. Question why that other world would cancel leading authorities in the field that do not want to go along with the ultimate agenda of complete social control.

Don't be the sheep that bleats, "How could I have known?"

Mell, nearly every comment you put says "math doesnt lie"... i also am pretty capable at doing math. The issue isnt how to do the math, its what dataset you trust to use for the analysis and avoiding the use of apples vs. oranges in analysis... Do you think all countries have equal reporting probability for deaths and cause of death? do they have the same prevalance rates of the same strains? Did their waves of infection coincide with the same treatment options becoming available? Do you think comparing two different countries outcomes in a cherry picked way like this without developing methods to account for all those differences in the dataset is just "math doesnt lie"?

Math can very much mislead to wrong conclusions if you do this sort of thing.

DeficitHawk says

Sure, this is a disease that disproportionately affects older people, diabetics, and a few other risk factors. I dont have the percentages broken down by risk factor handy, but sure that's the truth as I understand it.

I could graph the numbers again but I seem to recall that 93% of the Covid-19 deaths were people that Died "with" not "from". I also recall that most of the casualties had multiple comorbidities.

In hindsight, would you agree that there was a severe over-reaction to this pandemic?

Can you imagine any reasons doctors were forbidden to use therapies (hydroxy, Ivermectin, etc.) that could have saved lives?

@Patrick If we have someone who openly said they are a Democrat on this thread, willing to debate/discuss things, I think people need to refrain from insulting Democrats in general. Because by association you are lobbying insults at DeficitHawk. Not cool.

Onvacation says

I could graph the numbers again but I seem to recall that 93% of the Covid-19 deaths were people that Died "with" not "from". I also recall that most of the casualties had multiple comorbidities.

I dont really know what percentage of poeple were with vs. from.... I dont have that fact at my fingertips... but if the jist of what you are saying is that few people actually died FROM covid, this is just not true.

I have posted the CDC chart many times in this thread, but no one seems to look at it or respond. I wont re-post it again. But the excess mortality is deaths FROM covid... not WITH covid. It is people who would not be expected to die except for that COVID happened.

Now maybe you can say that those people were predominately older and unhealthy and would have been expected to die from other causes in the next 5-10 years.... and that may well be true.... and if it is we may see death rates BELOW normal rates after covid is over because some of the expected future deaths got 'pulled in' to 2020-2021 time frame.

But this type of statement you make seems to be made along with a narrative that "covid doesnt kill, only vaccines kill", and that narrative is not true.

NuttBoxer says

@Patrick If we have someone who openly said they are a Democrat on this thread, willing to debate/discuss things, I think people need to refrain from insulting Democrats in general. Because by association you are lobbying insults at DeficitHawk. Not cool.

True. I wish people would be more welcome to the lone democrat to brave these waters lately.

DeficitHawk says

I have posted the CDC chart many times in this thread, but no one seems to look at it or respond. I wont re-post it again. But the excess mortality is deaths FROM covid... not WITH covid. It is people who would not be expected to die except for that COVID happened.

According to the CDC data as of 11/9/2022 87.95% of the victims of the Wuhan died WITH not FROM.
https://data.cdc.gov/NCHS/Monthly-Provisional-Counts-of-Deaths-by-Select-Cau/9dzk-mvmi
Sure, the lab engineered virus killed a lot of people that would not have died but much of that was from lack of treatment and mismanagement. And, in my opinion, evil.

Onvacation says

In hindsight, would you agree that there was a severe over-reaction to this pandemic?

Can you imagine any reasons doctors were forbidden to use therapies (hydroxy, Ivermectin, etc.) that could have saved lives?

Honestly a part of me felt like 'rip the bandaid.. let it rifle through and kill people and then we'll come out the other side with the survivors being immune' was a valid strategy. Another part of me was afraid of the disease and the potential for civil breakdown as a result of it. BUT in retrospect it was good that we took measures to slow the disease. It allowed time for treatments to be developed and become available and saved lives. Overall Id say moderate overreaction, but it is good that we did something to intervene rather than nothing.

Hydroxi and the others, medical community (for good reason) is pretty reserved about indroducing medicines and requires double blind studies for efficacy. I think if those studies showed efficacy they should use the treatments. This was controversial... actually some of the earliest low statistics studies on it DID show efficacy. I read them back in 2020. actually I looked into buying some for myself at that time. Later ones with more statistics said not effective. Overall I think you need to go with efficacy and safety as measured in studies to decide the standard of care. I probably have more trust in the institutions that make these decisions than you do.

DeficitHawk says

Mell, nearly every comment you put says "math doesnt lie"... i also am pretty capable at doing math. The issue isnt how to do the math, its what dataset you trust to use for the analysis and avoiding the use of apples vs. oranges in analysis... Do you think all countries have equal reporting probability for deaths and cause of death? do they have the same prevalance rates of the same strains? Did their waves of infection coincide with the same treatment options becoming available? Do you think comparing two different countries outcomes in a cherry picked way like this without developing methods to account for all those differences in the dataset is just "math doesnt lie"?

Math can very much mislead to wrong conclusions if you do this sort of thing.

Again, I'm not disputing the initial rise in antibodies and the reduced symptomatic infection risk for 3-6 months, I'm showing you that the outcome is worse over time, worse with each booster. If at all countries in Africa would be at a disadvantage wrt treatments and many other technical details, yet they vastly outperform the US (partially cause the US banned ivermectin). The "endpoints" you are looking at don't matter, only deaths and serious cripplings over the mid to long term matter, how can anyone not agree with it. At the best you could flatten the curve for a very short time, but we all know that mass vaccinating during a pandemic will cause far more deaths in the long run due to ADE

"Can anyone find some Democrats willing to debate on patrick.net?"

Lol. Good luck with that :)

mell says

The "endpoints" you are looking at don't matter, only deaths and serious cripplings over the mid to long term matter,

WE've seen serious infections and side effects out to about 250 days in that one study, adn the vaccines overwhelmingly reduce severe infecton and have few side effects. but I agree this is not 'long term' enough to remove all doubts. One has to start to extrapolate on what likely side effects may present in the future etc, adn we wont have the data on that for a long time, I agree with that. Thats why I dont think the risk/benefit is there for mandating vaccines

But if you are saying the data are already that outcomes with vaccine during the pandemic are WORSE than they would have been without, I dont know how you are reaching that conclusion, at least not from the studies I've shared with you. Im not going to spend the time digging into the Africa data. Im filing that under the 'not enough roi for me to make the effort' category. But if you can do a good job distilling your analysis and taking into account the concerns I raised above, I'd give it a read.

DeficitHawk says

mell says

The "endpoints" you are looking at don't matter, only deaths and serious cripplings over the mid to long term matter,

WE've seen serious infections and side effects out to about 250 days in that one study, adn the vaccines overwhelmingly reduce severe infecton and have few side effects. but I agree this is not 'long term' enough to remove all doubts. One has to start to extrapolate on what likely side effects may present in the future etc, adn we wont have the data on that for a long time, I agree with that. Thats why I dont think the risk/benefit is there for mandating vaccines

But if you are saying the data are already that outcomes with vaccine during the pandemic are WORSE than they would have been without, I dont know how you are reaching that conclusion, at least not from the studies I've shared with you. Im not going to spend the time digging into ...

Fair enough. I spent some time researching it and also have a medical background, but ultimately people have to dig into it if they want clear answers. Ioannidis, Kulldorf, Risch are good MDs/statisticians to start with and check out their work on covid stats

cisTits says

mell says

also have a medical background

I have 7 PhDs and 11 Masters, myself.

Haha it's true though. Now that doesn't mean shit these days, but a little anatomy, biology, biochemistry and statistics can't hurt

DeficitHawk says

Patrick says

What if, say, 0.1 percent of vaxx recipients died or were severely injured, yet the government kept denying it?

This would be a high rate of side effects, only acceptable if the severity of the disease is higher still. covid is probably higher than 0.1 percent, but only by a few times, and I'd want a better risk/benefit in a vaccine.

What's worse is that the deaths and myocarditis from the vaxx are disproportionately in the young, who have exceptionally low risk from the virus itself. The risk of death from the virus, while not that different from flu, goes up exponentially with age, with almost all virus deaths being among people who are quite likely to die in the next year anyway.

Entire countries, Germany for example, could not find even one healthy child who died from the virus in that country.

To "vaccinate" children and young adults in the military for something which they have no measurable risk of dying from and thereby increase their risk of dying many times, is nothing but criminal.

If you peruse https://patrick.net/post/1340336/2021-07-29-thread-for-vax-deaths-maimings you can find plenty of people who suddenly died young, where the vaxx is the obvious culprit. Example, https://www.tmz.com/2022/10/08/us-rep-sean-casten-teen-daughter-gwen-died-heart-cardiac-arrhythmia/

Not to mention Gavin Newsom and Justin Bieber's Bell's Palsy and many other celebs who obviously had vaxx-induced problems:

https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/society-must-be-defen-estrated

DeficitHawk says

But this type of statement you make seems to be made along with a narrative that "covid doesnt kill, only vaccines kill", and that narrative is not true.

I never said that.

The flu kills more kids than covid. You would expect after the kill off of all the old people the last couple of years that overall mortality would drop. But it hasn't. Instead of the people you say , " would have been expected to die from other causes in the next 5-10 years.... " have been replaced by a younger group of deaths. SADS is not exactly new, but it has gone from killing 69 people a year to 69 people a day.

I do agree that the extra mortality from March 2020 to March 2022 was caused by the Wuhan.

DeficitHawk says

I disagree, because I think vaccine mandates ARE within their authority, and its a judgement call on a case by case basis based severity/efficacy/safety....

Again with the false equivalence. The Covid jab is NOT a vaccine, but rather an experimental biological agent. Pfizer tried to seal the results of their developmental studies for 75 years to hide negative results. ALL mandates were on the experimental shots, since the only FDA approved Covid shot was not made available. Doctors were prohibited from using known treatments like HCQ and Ivermectin, drugs with no more side effects than aspirin. However, the expensive and dangerous Remdesivir was approved as a treatment. Doctors and other qualified researchers that had a different opinion on the safety or effectiveness of the Covid jab were severely censored and threatened. All this leads credence to Fauci et al pushing the jab and Remedisvir for Pharma profit alone, with no concern about safety or effectiveness.

to be honest, there are democrats out there that openly can't stand what's going on. It's starting to become slightly trendy in entertainment now (Bill Maher etc). But on the flip side, you can list a good 2 dozen major stories/incidents that they were totally lied to about. If they haven't seen the light by now, they are hopeless.

theoakman says

there are democrats out there that openly can't stand what's going on

I hope you are correct, but I am just seeing the willfully ignorant. It seems the Tulsi Gabbards are rather rare.