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87
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 2:30pm
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 2:30pm
AmericanKulak says
NO! This was not when the break happened, it happened earlier.
I saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".
This is when our media moved from having any pretense of being informative, to being full on propaganda. I largely ignored it, because the Internet was replacing it anyhow, what I didn't realize though is that although I already had dumped television and newspapers as an information source, I was something like a decade ahead of most people.
AmericanKulak says
It was bullshit back then too, you just don't realize it, yet.
Perhaps it's been bullshit all my life. Maybe it's even before the naughts. I became an adult in the 1990's and that's when I really started to pay attention. I can readily accept that all the "news" I got before then was bullshit, and not mistakes but I know, for certain, our "news" became pure bullshit by 2001.
We're finding out just now that the CIA and FBI had a hand in murdering John Kennedy. Consider that. Where were the "investigative journalists"? Maybe they don't exist and have never existed. The people who actually did work to research it were either dismissed as crazy, or murdered - like Dorothy Kilgallen was.
I'm telling you our "news" media turned to shit before you realize, it happened earlier than you think. It probably happened before I think. I can only say for certainty I became absolutely aware of it 20 years ago.
It doesn't come from the Media, it comes from PostModernity, from Marcuse to Foucault. In college, Radical Professors taught Marcuse and Foucault and Bell but not any counter-narratives to compare and contrast. That is why the Media changed radically when in did, around 2010-2014.
NO! This was not when the break happened, it happened earlier.
I saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".
This is when our media moved from having any pretense of being informative, to being full on propaganda. I largely ignored it, because the Internet was replacing it anyhow, what I didn't realize though is that although I already had dumped television and newspapers as an information source, I was something like a decade ahead of most people.
AmericanKulak says
I succinctly remember in the 2000s there were MSM programs about Dr. Money and David Reimer and the "great mistakes" of the 60s-70s radicals. The reason it changed is because the first generation of brainwashed graduates went to work for the Media.
It was bullshit back then too, you just don't realize it, yet.
Perhaps it's been bullshit all my life. Maybe it's even before the naughts. I became an adult in the 1990's and that's when I really started to pay attention. I can readily accept that all the "news" I got before then was bullshit, and not mistakes but I know, for certain, our "news" became pure bullshit by 2001.
We're finding out just now that the CIA and FBI had a hand in murdering John Kennedy. Consider that. Where were the "investigative journalists"? Maybe they don't exist and have never existed. The people who actually did work to research it were either dismissed as crazy, or murdered - like Dorothy Kilgallen was.
I'm telling you our "news" media turned to shit before you realize, it happened earlier than you think. It probably happened before I think. I can only say for certainty I became absolutely aware of it 20 years ago.
88
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 20, 2:45pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 20, 2:45pm
richwicks says
We disagree on this one, and we've debated this many times.
richwicks says
There's always been bullshit and big gov bias. But back in the 90s there were MSM hosted debates between JFK Assassination Researchers and "It was all Oswald" types. "JFK" was released in Movie Theatres, which definitely takes the Conspiracy viewpoint.
The absolute clampdown on anything threatening to PostModernism and Neoliberal Fascism began in the 2010s. The 80s and 90s were full of everything from MRA's to NeoNazis to UFOs Concealed By Government to Everything Else making arguments on Talk Shows, both TV and Radio. The 2000s was the transition period but it was still Mainstream to assert Men couldn't become Women --- and to oppose the Iraq War.
Even in fiction: You'd NEVER get a show like the X-Files approved today, not just because the lead protagonists are White, but for the topic matter of a Deep State colluding against the Public Interest. And certainly not Silence of the Lambs. "IT DEPICTS WONDERFUL TRANSPERSONS AS INSANE SERIAL KILLERS! HATE SPEECH! JODIE FOSTER IS A BIGOT FOR EVEN THINKING OF ACTING IN THIS GENOCIDAL HIT PIECE!!";
The only surprising thing about this Era is that Hollywood and the BBC haven't incinerated the original copies of "Blazing Saddles" and "Benny Hill"
Woke Media has already called for Dude looks like a Lady and other songs to be removed from circulation.
Here's Forbes Magazine, 2021:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2021/04/19/why-white-people-should-stop-using-the-term-wokeimmediately/?sh=771c739d7779
This is the kind of sentiment you'd only see in "Maoist International Movement/Rally Against Imperialism" fliers in previous eras, never in a mainstream publication.
The Culture War is real. And Politics is downstream from Culture. Once the Culture is 100% Authoritarian Left-Neoliberal, forgot any hopes of politics, since most/all the voters will be for Authoritarian Neoliberal/Leftism.
I saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".
This is when our media moved from having any pretense of being informative, to being full on propaganda. I largely ignored it, because the Internet was replacing it anyhow, what I didn't realize though is that although I already had dumped television and newspapers as an information source, I was something like a decade ahead of most people.
We disagree on this one, and we've debated this many times.
richwicks says
It was bullshit back then too, you just don't realize it, yet.
Perhaps it's been bullshit all my life. Maybe it's even before the naughts. I became an adult in the 1990's and that's when I really started to pay attention. I can readily accept that all the "news" I got before then was bullshit, and not mistakes but I know, for certain, our "news" became pure bullshit by 2001.
There's always been bullshit and big gov bias. But back in the 90s there were MSM hosted debates between JFK Assassination Researchers and "It was all Oswald" types. "JFK" was released in Movie Theatres, which definitely takes the Conspiracy viewpoint.
The absolute clampdown on anything threatening to PostModernism and Neoliberal Fascism began in the 2010s. The 80s and 90s were full of everything from MRA's to NeoNazis to UFOs Concealed By Government to Everything Else making arguments on Talk Shows, both TV and Radio. The 2000s was the transition period but it was still Mainstream to assert Men couldn't become Women --- and to oppose the Iraq War.
Even in fiction: You'd NEVER get a show like the X-Files approved today, not just because the lead protagonists are White, but for the topic matter of a Deep State colluding against the Public Interest. And certainly not Silence of the Lambs. "IT DEPICTS WONDERFUL TRANSPERSONS AS INSANE SERIAL KILLERS! HATE SPEECH! JODIE FOSTER IS A BIGOT FOR EVEN THINKING OF ACTING IN THIS GENOCIDAL HIT PIECE!!";
The only surprising thing about this Era is that Hollywood and the BBC haven't incinerated the original copies of "Blazing Saddles" and "Benny Hill"
Woke Media has already called for Dude looks like a Lady and other songs to be removed from circulation.
Here's Forbes Magazine, 2021:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/danabrownlee/2021/04/19/why-white-people-should-stop-using-the-term-wokeimmediately/?sh=771c739d7779
This is the kind of sentiment you'd only see in "Maoist International Movement/Rally Against Imperialism" fliers in previous eras, never in a mainstream publication.
The Culture War is real. And Politics is downstream from Culture. Once the Culture is 100% Authoritarian Left-Neoliberal, forgot any hopes of politics, since most/all the voters will be for Authoritarian Neoliberal/Leftism.
89
Undoctored
2022 Dec 20, 4:33pm
Undoctored
2022 Dec 20, 4:33pm
DD214 says
Again I ask, how is what the physicists are saying about what came before the current universe any less of a word salad than what the clerics are saying came before the account in Genesis?
Here’s from the CNET article linked in the OP:
What kind of dressing would you like with that?
And how is this any better than saying, as the clerics do, “God always was and always will be”?
According to the physicists etc. there was nothing so how did God come out of nothing ?
[ links to physicists grappling with the something-from-nothing question ]
So as of today I have yet to get anything but a variety of wonderful word salads for an answer from clergy of any church or denomination.
Anyone on here have something better than word salad for an answer ?
Again I ask, how is what the physicists are saying about what came before the current universe any less of a word salad than what the clerics are saying came before the account in Genesis?
Here’s from the CNET article linked in the OP:
"Nothing was around before the Big, Big Bang," Hawking said.
He explained that Einstein's Theory of Relativity insists space and time form a continuum curved by the matter and energy in it.
For Hawking, therefore, the beginning of the universe is best described by a Euclidean approach.
"Ordinary real time is replaced by imaginary time," he said. Honestly, that happens to me all the time. I imagine time has gone by at a certain pace, only to discover I've been imagining things.
For Hawking, however, imaginary time "behaves like a fourth direction of space." He and Euclid believe imaginary time is a "four-dimensional curved surface like the surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions."
Six-dimensional, then?
The universe, insisted Hawking, has no boundaries. Yes, it's like true love.
What kind of dressing would you like with that?
And how is this any better than saying, as the clerics do, “God always was and always will be”?
90
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 4:50pm
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 4:50pm
AmericanKulak says
A fictional one. Sure it opened up the can of worms, but it was fantasized and this was for "artistic reasons" - bullshit, it was just more disinformation.
AmericanKulak says
This is a propaganda technique known widely as "kookification". What is done is to associate a real, serious, research movement with wacky crazy bullshit. That's what Judy Wood's job is with 9/11.
AmericanKulak says
Although I had an interest in the X-Files as a CHILD, it's another example of kookification.
AmericanKulak says
Well, the digital age has made it impossible to wipe this out. I know people with 100TB raided (equivalent) drives that just keep the data to share it, they will never use it.
AmericanKulak says
Culture is created by media. Just divorce yourself from it. I did, 30 years ago.
When I watch a film today, I see it as propaganda - and I used to be a huge film buff, but it's nearly all propaganda.
I noticed that I gravitated (without my awareness) away from that. Go watch The City of Lost Children for example, it's just a weird film. I can't see a political message, but there is with Top Gun...
There's always been bullshit and big gov bias. But back in the 90s there were MSM hosted debates between JFK Assassination Researchers and "It was all Oswald" types. "JFK" was released in Movie Theatres, which definitely takes the Conspiracy viewpoint.
A fictional one. Sure it opened up the can of worms, but it was fantasized and this was for "artistic reasons" - bullshit, it was just more disinformation.
AmericanKulak says
The absolute clampdown on anything threatening to PostModernism and Neoliberal Fascism began in the 2010s. The 80s and 90s were full of everything from MRA's to NeoNazis to UFOs Concealed By Government to Everything Else making arguments on Talk Shows, both TV and Radio.
This is a propaganda technique known widely as "kookification". What is done is to associate a real, serious, research movement with wacky crazy bullshit. That's what Judy Wood's job is with 9/11.
AmericanKulak says
Even in fiction: You'd NEVER get a show like the X-Files approved today
Although I had an interest in the X-Files as a CHILD, it's another example of kookification.
AmericanKulak says
The only surprising thing about this Era is that Hollywood and the BBC haven't incinerated the original copies of "Blazing Saddles" and "Benny Hill"
Well, the digital age has made it impossible to wipe this out. I know people with 100TB raided (equivalent) drives that just keep the data to share it, they will never use it.
AmericanKulak says
The Culture War is real. And Politics is downstream from Culture.
Culture is created by media. Just divorce yourself from it. I did, 30 years ago.
When I watch a film today, I see it as propaganda - and I used to be a huge film buff, but it's nearly all propaganda.
I noticed that I gravitated (without my awareness) away from that. Go watch The City of Lost Children for example, it's just a weird film. I can't see a political message, but there is with Top Gun...
91
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 20, 5:36pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 20, 5:36pm
richwicks says
Obviously movies are constrained by the media used. All movies, including the most historically accurate, have to take some liberties with dialogue and presentation. And the point of view of the producer, writer, director plays a role.
That it presented Garrison's case (although with some anachronisms, facts that weren't discovered until after the real trial) and made it to mainstream theaters is the point.
richwicks says
It's a Profit-making business seeking viewers, using controversy. That such programming would never be allowed in a far-more competitive world in 2023 is an indicator of the cultural Overton window being moved by Institutional Forces. We should expect to see MORE controversy today than around 1990, because networks are competing not just with each other and often cable, but now also and streaming and on-demand services. But we don't, and that's because of a massive increase in Social Engineering and Control by the Clerisy.
richwicks says
In modern society, Media is a, if not the, primary transmitter of culture.
Culture determines politics more than anything. If not checked and controlled, Culture will forbid you from divorcing yourself to it. As we saw with COVID and #MeToo, you will be assimilated or cut off.
Just because you ignore Culture, doesn't mean it will ignore you as it shifts Politics.
A fictional one. Sure it opened up the can of worms, but it was fantasized and this was for "artistic reasons" - bullshit, it was just more disinformation.
Obviously movies are constrained by the media used. All movies, including the most historically accurate, have to take some liberties with dialogue and presentation. And the point of view of the producer, writer, director plays a role.
That it presented Garrison's case (although with some anachronisms, facts that weren't discovered until after the real trial) and made it to mainstream theaters is the point.
richwicks says
This is a propaganda technique known widely as "kookification". What is done is to associate a real, serious, research movement with wacky crazy bullshit. That's what Judy Wood's job is with 9/11.
It's a Profit-making business seeking viewers, using controversy. That such programming would never be allowed in a far-more competitive world in 2023 is an indicator of the cultural Overton window being moved by Institutional Forces. We should expect to see MORE controversy today than around 1990, because networks are competing not just with each other and often cable, but now also and streaming and on-demand services. But we don't, and that's because of a massive increase in Social Engineering and Control by the Clerisy.
richwicks says
Culture is created by media. Just divorce yourself from it. I did, 30 years ago.
In modern society, Media is a, if not the, primary transmitter of culture.
Culture determines politics more than anything. If not checked and controlled, Culture will forbid you from divorcing yourself to it. As we saw with COVID and #MeToo, you will be assimilated or cut off.
Just because you ignore Culture, doesn't mean it will ignore you as it shifts Politics.
92
stereotomy
2022 Dec 20, 6:30pm
stereotomy
2022 Dec 20, 6:30pm
richwicks says
Considering all the evils that occurred during that decade, I prefer to call them "The naughties."
richwicks says
Junet is great, although I confess that "Amelie" is probably my favorite. Maybe one of these days we'll finally have a realease of "A Very Long Engagement."
saw the last dying gasps of the media, and it happened in early 2000, the early "naughts".
Considering all the evils that occurred during that decade, I prefer to call them "The naughties."
richwicks says
Go watch The City of Lost Children for example, it's just a weird film. I can't see a political message,
Junet is great, although I confess that "Amelie" is probably my favorite. Maybe one of these days we'll finally have a realease of "A Very Long Engagement."
93
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 6:39pm
richwicks
2022 Dec 20, 6:39pm
AmericanKulak says
No they don't. There is no need for this at all.
AmericanKulak says
I'm telling you that there are people hired by our intelligence agencies to spew bullshit, in order to mask the truth. That's who Judy Woods is. She's not an idiot, she's not insane, she's a liar, a paid propagandist.
AmericanKulak says
Yes. This the sickness of our society.
"Entertainment" is now propaganda.
AmericanKulak says
I fully recognize I live among grazing animals. What I struggle with is what side should I be on? Help them or slaughter them?
I fully understand the point of view of the people in power, however, I step back on cooperating with them, at this point. At this point.
Obviously movies are constrained by the media used. All movies, including the most historically accurate, have to take some liberties with dialogue and presentation.
No they don't. There is no need for this at all.
AmericanKulak says
We should expect to see MORE controversy today than around 1990, because networks are competing not just with each other and often cable
I'm telling you that there are people hired by our intelligence agencies to spew bullshit, in order to mask the truth. That's who Judy Woods is. She's not an idiot, she's not insane, she's a liar, a paid propagandist.
AmericanKulak says
In modern society, Media is a, if not the, primary transmitter of culture.
Yes. This the sickness of our society.
"Entertainment" is now propaganda.
AmericanKulak says
Just because you ignore Culture, doesn't mean it will ignore you as it shifts Politics.
I fully recognize I live among grazing animals. What I struggle with is what side should I be on? Help them or slaughter them?
I fully understand the point of view of the people in power, however, I step back on cooperating with them, at this point. At this point.
94
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 20, 7:39pm
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 20, 7:39pm
DD214 says
1. Anyone who realizes their need of salvation and turns to God’s promise/completed work of sacrifice for their sins is saved. Able sacrificed his livestock as a symbol that He trusted God to provide a savior. Cain wanted to earn his own salvation by providing his vegetables as an offering but this just showed that He did not trust God to provide a savior. The Old Testament Jewish sacrifices, the Passover, they are blood sacrifices to symbolize the fact that without the shedding of blood by the sinless spotless lamb there is no remission of sins. But whether you were born before Jesus or after, all you need is to believe that he has or will do what God promised.
2. God exists. What should you make of it? You should be interested to know why he created you! God created time, what should you make of it? God created time to demonstrate the urgency of seeking Him early, while there is still time to seek Him!
3. In heaven the physical body is reunited with the soul. Even cremated bodies can be reassembled by the Creator so there is no concern there. But the dead rising that I was speaking of happens on this earth during the great tribulation period, a 7 year period of judgement like never before in history that is soon to befall the earth. In the book of Revelation the antichrist is healed of a mortal wound, a kind of resurrection. Also the two witnesses that preach salvation and opposition to the antichrist during the great tribulation are killed and rise up from the dead. That is what I was referring to.
PeopleUnited says
The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.
First Question: For those who lived were before Christ what is their fate ?
Second Question: If "God" as you state existed before "time", than what are we to make of either ?
Third Question: The dead shall rise again - now if someone has been cremated, the ashes scattered - the Catholic Church talks in terms of the "Spiritual" Body.
Which are you talking about ? Physical or Spiritual and if the soul departs the body upon death, why is there a need to recreate it ?
https://www.tulipcremation.com/articles/tulip-expert-guides/cremation/catholic-cremation-beliefs.html
1. Anyone who realizes their need of salvation and turns to God’s promise/completed work of sacrifice for their sins is saved. Able sacrificed his livestock as a symbol that He trusted God to provide a savior. Cain wanted to earn his own salvation by providing his vegetables as an offering but this just showed that He did not trust God to provide a savior. The Old Testament Jewish sacrifices, the Passover, they are blood sacrifices to symbolize the fact that without the shedding of blood by the sinless spotless lamb there is no remission of sins. But whether you were born before Jesus or after, all you need is to believe that he has or will do what God promised.
2. God exists. What should you make of it? You should be interested to know why he created you! God created time, what should you make of it? God created time to demonstrate the urgency of seeking Him early, while there is still time to seek Him!
3. In heaven the physical body is reunited with the soul. Even cremated bodies can be reassembled by the Creator so there is no concern there. But the dead rising that I was speaking of happens on this earth during the great tribulation period, a 7 year period of judgement like never before in history that is soon to befall the earth. In the book of Revelation the antichrist is healed of a mortal wound, a kind of resurrection. Also the two witnesses that preach salvation and opposition to the antichrist during the great tribulation are killed and rise up from the dead. That is what I was referring to.
95
DD214
2022 Dec 21, 5:31am
AmericanKulak says
not much on geology huh ?
Those who insist on Physical Proof for some claims, should not be able to dodge Physical Proof for their claims.
not much on geology huh ?
97
DD214
2022 Dec 21, 5:37am
To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.
FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.
As for all of the rest, the best answers to my queries have come from Catholic Priests who are willing to take the time to sit and discuss over coffee and a couple of lay preachers who are not quick to condemn you to hell such as the case with the church I was forced to attend as a youth.
Best of all - no politics involved with these folks. Just spirited discussions and some genuine friendship as well.
FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.
As for all of the rest, the best answers to my queries have come from Catholic Priests who are willing to take the time to sit and discuss over coffee and a couple of lay preachers who are not quick to condemn you to hell such as the case with the church I was forced to attend as a youth.
Best of all - no politics involved with these folks. Just spirited discussions and some genuine friendship as well.
98
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 21, 9:09am
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 21, 9:09am
The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only. There are likely some Christians in the pews (though just because someone claims to be a Christian doesn’t mean they follow Christ), but I have serious doubts about the clergy because they don’t seem to follow the plain gospel truths and instead focus on silly things like baptism and communion as if they are magic. But if they told you that unless you have a Savior you will spend eternity in outer darkness hopelessly separated from God, and that offended you, then it is clear that the church is not to blame. Because that is basically exactly the reason Jesus came to earth, just as God promised Adam and Eve after they disobeyed His one rule for them and brought sin and death upon all their descendants.
100
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 12:52pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 12:52pm
Patrick says
Read the Greek. This is a reference to Jesus, the Logos.
RayAmerica says
the Word was God.
This is the closest I come to believing.
Read the Greek. This is a reference to Jesus, the Logos.
101
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 12:56pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 12:56pm
DD214 says
That hardline has softened in the past five years. But again, time is a construct God created, not binding for Him. So whether the time as we measure it was a millennium, 24 hours, or 24 seconds, it's irrelevant. Unless He's not God...
There are an awful lot of people running around at this very moment who take that to mean a day just like we know it right now. That is pretty scary in and of itself, but then again there are still people who believe the Earth is flat.
That hardline has softened in the past five years. But again, time is a construct God created, not binding for Him. So whether the time as we measure it was a millennium, 24 hours, or 24 seconds, it's irrelevant. Unless He's not God...
102
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 21, 12:58pm
AmericanKulak
2022 Dec 21, 12:58pm
“We have not government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” —U.S. President John Adams
From the aspect of broken homes, substance abuse, reversing longevity, obesity, mental disorders, lonliness/unhappiness surveys, etc. the growth of Agnostic/Atheist proportion of the population sure hasn't lead to ever-improving social health as predicted by Modernists but rather the reverse. In the past few years, crime has skyrocketed, wrecking the "Abortion=permanent valley of less crime" narrative.
This is a pattern repeated in the Western World, and to some degree in the advanced Asian Countries.
From the aspect of broken homes, substance abuse, reversing longevity, obesity, mental disorders, lonliness/unhappiness surveys, etc. the growth of Agnostic/Atheist proportion of the population sure hasn't lead to ever-improving social health as predicted by Modernists but rather the reverse. In the past few years, crime has skyrocketed, wrecking the "Abortion=permanent valley of less crime" narrative.
This is a pattern repeated in the Western World, and to some degree in the advanced Asian Countries.
103
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 1:08pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 21, 1:08pm
DD214 says
I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.
Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.
If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know that God loves you, I know it because He loves me. The relationship He wants is with you. It doesn't require a church, a priest, or a Bible. Just your willingness to accept the free gift of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. He welcomes your questions, and invites you to doubt. Thomas did not believe Christ had risen. And when Christ appeared He did not condemn Thomas, but invited him to put his hands into the wounds to remove His doubt. Only cults require blind trust. God asks for faith, built through a relationship with Him. Never blind.
I don't fit in well at most churches today. But there are good ones if you look. And good Christians, who you've already found. Don't see how Lutheran's get off being so judgy when they go all in on the alcohol. My mom worked for a Lutheran church where the pastor had to check into rehab. I shit you not.
To all concerned - I did not buy into the 7 days creation fantasy in Sunday School, didn't go for the Chariot of Fire either, asked too many questions and was deemed a troubled soul as well as a trouble maker.
FYI - It was an Evangelical Lutheran Church.
Left the "cult" as soon as I was able to make a clean break and never looked back.
I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.
Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.
If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know that God loves you, I know it because He loves me. The relationship He wants is with you. It doesn't require a church, a priest, or a Bible. Just your willingness to accept the free gift of salvation through His Son Christ Jesus. He welcomes your questions, and invites you to doubt. Thomas did not believe Christ had risen. And when Christ appeared He did not condemn Thomas, but invited him to put his hands into the wounds to remove His doubt. Only cults require blind trust. God asks for faith, built through a relationship with Him. Never blind.
I don't fit in well at most churches today. But there are good ones if you look. And good Christians, who you've already found. Don't see how Lutheran's get off being so judgy when they go all in on the alcohol. My mom worked for a Lutheran church where the pastor had to check into rehab. I shit you not.
104
stereotomy
2022 Dec 21, 1:42pm
stereotomy
2022 Dec 21, 1:42pm
NuttBoxer says
I'm more an agnostic than a Christian (even though I had 13 years of catholic school), but I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.
That's why, the only thing I believe from the Gospels is what Christ is claimed to have said in Matthew 18-20, "When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
I grew up Baptist, mostly in the Midwest. Maybe not as repressed as the south, but pretty freaking close. Although the last church I was a part of was started as an outreach to SE Asian's, and was comprised of mostly youth. Problem, it was headed my missionary's from the Midwest. They instilled a very works based belief system, that was quick to write you off if you didn't adhere to their unspoken rules. Little love, little grace.
Fortunately, I know God, and He's never shied from my doubts or questions. I have asked Him for specific signs at three points in my life, and He delivered every time. When I was on summer mission trips during college, and had some mighty prayer warriors supporting me, I saw things I have never seen since.
If you look to man, you will be forever disappointed, few of us measure up to the Christians we should be. The good at least have the sense to admit our failures. That helps us to stay humble, and extend the grace we so desperately need ourselves. I know ...
I'm more an agnostic than a Christian (even though I had 13 years of catholic school), but I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.
That's why, the only thing I believe from the Gospels is what Christ is claimed to have said in Matthew 18-20, "When two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them."
105
DD214
2022 Dec 22, 3:24am
PeopleUnited says
Why can't you all just learn to get along instead of tearing each other down just to claim my god if better than your god and my sect/denomination/synod whatever the fuck is better than yours and is the only one to get your a permanent pass into Elysian Fields.
This is what I do not get about the whole thing. There are entirely too many "Christians" in name only along with too many of every other religion in name only as well.
And when I run into someone who is born again, reformed, in recovery etc. - I get away as fast as humanly possible because the shit is getting flung high, wide and handsome.
The evangelical Lutheran church (among many others) is Christian in name only.
Why can't you all just learn to get along instead of tearing each other down just to claim my god if better than your god and my sect/denomination/synod whatever the fuck is better than yours and is the only one to get your a permanent pass into Elysian Fields.
This is what I do not get about the whole thing. There are entirely too many "Christians" in name only along with too many of every other religion in name only as well.
And when I run into someone who is born again, reformed, in recovery etc. - I get away as fast as humanly possible because the shit is getting flung high, wide and handsome.
106
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 4:03am
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 4:03am
As stated by others previously, and the Bible itself: People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point. Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.
By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.
By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.
107
DD214
2022 Dec 22, 5:06am
PeopleUnited says
That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.
Case closed.
By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.
That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.
Case closed.
108
RayAmerica
2022 Dec 22, 5:42am
RayAmerica
2022 Dec 22, 5:42am
PeopleUnited says
Many years ago, I worked closely, on a daily basis, with a man that professed to be a 'born again Christian,' but, in reality, he was a hypocrite of the worst kind. He was well known to be a conniver, a liar, and just overall someone that could not be trusted in the slightest. He was also vulgar and would often use the name of Jesus Christ in a
blasphemous manner. Yet, he kept telling me that I 'needed to be born again.' The entire experience left me very sour regarding 'religion.'
Several years after our daily work relationship ended, I began receiving phone calls from an old friend that I attended high school with. He would often tell me about things that
he had read in the Bible, etc. Originally, I thought he fell off the deep end. For whatever reason, I decided to buy a Bible and read it for myself, starting with the New Testament. What I read surprised me, much of it bringing comfort to what was then a tortured soul. Some verses and passages provoked me to really think about what was
being said. My reading the Bible went on for quite some time, when suddenly, I was confronted, by His word, with my own sin and rebellion against God. I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad. I needed to either follow what I believed to be true, or go back to my life that, on the inside, was a wreck. By God's infinite grace,
He gave me the ability to choose His path. That was over 40 years ago, and even though I went through many trials, etc. I never once regretted making that decision.
One other item; we all have our own 'belief' system that provides the foundation for our life. The question is this: upon what authority do you base that belief system upon?
Is there a higher 'authority' that exceeds God's Word? If so, what is it?
Humans will always let you down, but look to Christ because he never will fail you.
Many years ago, I worked closely, on a daily basis, with a man that professed to be a 'born again Christian,' but, in reality, he was a hypocrite of the worst kind. He was well known to be a conniver, a liar, and just overall someone that could not be trusted in the slightest. He was also vulgar and would often use the name of Jesus Christ in a
blasphemous manner. Yet, he kept telling me that I 'needed to be born again.' The entire experience left me very sour regarding 'religion.'
Several years after our daily work relationship ended, I began receiving phone calls from an old friend that I attended high school with. He would often tell me about things that
he had read in the Bible, etc. Originally, I thought he fell off the deep end. For whatever reason, I decided to buy a Bible and read it for myself, starting with the New Testament. What I read surprised me, much of it bringing comfort to what was then a tortured soul. Some verses and passages provoked me to really think about what was
being said. My reading the Bible went on for quite some time, when suddenly, I was confronted, by His word, with my own sin and rebellion against God. I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad. I needed to either follow what I believed to be true, or go back to my life that, on the inside, was a wreck. By God's infinite grace,
He gave me the ability to choose His path. That was over 40 years ago, and even though I went through many trials, etc. I never once regretted making that decision.
One other item; we all have our own 'belief' system that provides the foundation for our life. The question is this: upon what authority do you base that belief system upon?
Is there a higher 'authority' that exceeds God's Word? If so, what is it?
109
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 8:56am
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 8:56am
DD214 says
Is the person who believes the world is flat at a lower level than a person who believes it is a sphere?
I don’t think so, and never said so. One is simply right and the other wrong. Examine your own words. It is you who are projecting and accusing me of claiming something I do not claim. My beliefs do not make me superior, I am not superior to anyone in any moral sense.
Truth is truth, and pointing out error is pointing out is pointing out error. If my pointing error is offensive, I would expect it is because the offended person knows it is true, but does not want to accept it and/or make a change. It is called conviction and a sign that God is striving with a person to point out their error and draw them to His words of salvation.
(By the way I was raised Lutheran just like you, and I’m thankful for the upbringing. My family is Lutheran and many friends as too, but when God showed me what I was missing, I followed Him on a new path, a path where religion and denomination are worthless compared the the relationship I have with Him)
PeopleUnited says
By the way, it was you who started to tear down the evangelical Lutherans. I believe that you referred to them as a cult. I would not go that far, but they do have some serious doctrine issues. Jesus did not baptize babies for example.
That is true since I was forced to attend and however your commentary is a Class 1A example of Moral Superiority which I have noted before. You may not go so far as labelling them a cult but you have no problem putting your beliefs at a higher and better level.
Case closed.
Is the person who believes the world is flat at a lower level than a person who believes it is a sphere?
I don’t think so, and never said so. One is simply right and the other wrong. Examine your own words. It is you who are projecting and accusing me of claiming something I do not claim. My beliefs do not make me superior, I am not superior to anyone in any moral sense.
Truth is truth, and pointing out error is pointing out is pointing out error. If my pointing error is offensive, I would expect it is because the offended person knows it is true, but does not want to accept it and/or make a change. It is called conviction and a sign that God is striving with a person to point out their error and draw them to His words of salvation.
(By the way I was raised Lutheran just like you, and I’m thankful for the upbringing. My family is Lutheran and many friends as too, but when God showed me what I was missing, I followed Him on a new path, a path where religion and denomination are worthless compared the the relationship I have with Him)
110
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 9:11am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 9:11am
stereotomy says
Stick to Jesus words in the gospels. That's a good starting point. And it doesn't line up with "they" nearly as often as you might think. In fact, in Jesus times His greatest opponents, and the ones who set Him up, where "they". The Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious leaders of the time.
I find it hard to believe that the God that loves us and wants us to know Him can be so secretive and obtuse when it comes to doing what "they" claim we should do.
Stick to Jesus words in the gospels. That's a good starting point. And it doesn't line up with "they" nearly as often as you might think. In fact, in Jesus times His greatest opponents, and the ones who set Him up, where "they". The Pharisees and the Sadducees, the religious leaders of the time.
111
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 9:16am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 9:16am
PeopleUnited says
I disagree. We have a duty to reflect God to the world, and our failure is something we are accountable for. Yes, it's unfair to God, but it's also unfair to ask a believer to "Do as I say, and not as I do".
People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point.
I disagree. We have a duty to reflect God to the world, and our failure is something we are accountable for. Yes, it's unfair to God, but it's also unfair to ask a believer to "Do as I say, and not as I do".
112
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 10:22am
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 10:22am
NuttBoxer says
What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.
In Christ alone.... Even if the world and all it’s people turn against me , by the grace of God, I will still follow Him.
PeopleUnited says
People who blame Christians for their unwillingness to follow Christ have missed the point.
I disagree. We have a duty to reflect God to the world, and our failure is something we are accountable for. Yes, it's unfair to God, but it's also unfair to ask a believer to "Do as I say, and not as I do".
What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.
In Christ alone.... Even if the world and all it’s people turn against me , by the grace of God, I will still follow Him.
113
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 2:48pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 2:48pm
RayAmerica says
My Dad asked me about getting saved when I was like four or something. I did the prayer, but it didn't mean anything. I know because when I was a bit older I got caught stealing gum from church. I remember distinctly not feeling bad at all that I had done it, but only that I had gotten caught. It was one night in my room before I fell asleep around around the age of 14 or so that I remember not wanting to be alone anymore. It was at that moment I asked God into my life.
I distinctly recall
the sense that I had reached a crossroad.
My Dad asked me about getting saved when I was like four or something. I did the prayer, but it didn't mean anything. I know because when I was a bit older I got caught stealing gum from church. I remember distinctly not feeling bad at all that I had done it, but only that I had gotten caught. It was one night in my room before I fell asleep around around the age of 14 or so that I remember not wanting to be alone anymore. It was at that moment I asked God into my life.
114
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 2:51pm
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 22, 2:51pm
PeopleUnited says
Sure. In the end we are each responsible for our own lives. We can do a great job, and our kids could still turn out bad. Because we all have a choice. But Christians will have to give account for every believer they discourage from the faith.
What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.
Sure. In the end we are each responsible for our own lives. We can do a great job, and our kids could still turn out bad. Because we all have a choice. But Christians will have to give account for every believer they discourage from the faith.
115
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 7:38pm
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 22, 7:38pm
NuttBoxer says
Most people who claim to be Christian are probably not following Christ. Sure a real Christ follower will be held accountable for the missed opportunities to serve God and make a difference for others, but the fake Christians cause way more harm and confusion (examples are most televangelists, and really any so called religion that put denomination before salvation in Jesus) than the Christians who screw up. And any fool who blames Christians for their own unwillingness to follow Christ, is a fool who will die in their sins. And anyone who dies in their sins has only one person to blame, themselves.
PeopleUnited says
What I mean is anyone who says the reason I’m not a believer is because so and so did this, is a liar and missed the point, it’s not about church, religion or any other person. It’s about Jesus and a relationship with Him.
Sure. In the end we are each responsible for our own lives. We can do a great job, and our kids could still turn out bad. Because we all have a choice. But Christians will have to give account for every believer they discourage from the faith.
Most people who claim to be Christian are probably not following Christ. Sure a real Christ follower will be held accountable for the missed opportunities to serve God and make a difference for others, but the fake Christians cause way more harm and confusion (examples are most televangelists, and really any so called religion that put denomination before salvation in Jesus) than the Christians who screw up. And any fool who blames Christians for their own unwillingness to follow Christ, is a fool who will die in their sins. And anyone who dies in their sins has only one person to blame, themselves.
117
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 23, 2:39am
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 23, 2:39am
How so? If someone is bitter about their upbringing or the things that happen to them, they are actually bitter at God, because God allows everything that happens for a reason, and everything that happens happens by the Grace of God to bring the expected end He desires for every believer. No person in hell is there by any reason but their own choice. And every person knows in their heart that there is a God, no matter how hard they try to tell themselves differently and justify their rebellion against Him.
Grace and Mercy abound. And when the gifts of Grace and Mercy are rejected (as most people do reject them according Christ and his teaching of the broad road and the narrow gate).... well that is why everyone deserves a warning because without repentance, changing your mind about sin and rebellion against God, there can be no forgiveness.
Grace and Mercy abound. And when the gifts of Grace and Mercy are rejected (as most people do reject them according Christ and his teaching of the broad road and the narrow gate).... well that is why everyone deserves a warning because without repentance, changing your mind about sin and rebellion against God, there can be no forgiveness.
118
FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden
2022 Dec 23, 7:30am
didn’t saint george if fetalyn create everything with saint Obama and angelic Biden?
119
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 23, 9:56am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2022 Dec 23, 9:56am
PeopleUnited says
You're forgetting this is a world of choice. Not everything happens the way God would do it, because He allows us to choose.
PeopleUnited says
I heard a story once about a missionary traveling down the river to bring the gospel to a tribe. On the way he passed a different tribe who knew he was a missionary, and desperately tried to get him to stay as his boat passed. As he went out of site down a bend in the river, he heard a great wail. Point being, not everyone gets the same opportunities to learn about God.
PeopleUnited says
From God yes, but we have a duty to personally demonstrate those qualities as well.
PeopleUnited says
Absolutely, don't sugar coat the truth. But also don't forget the most important part of salvation, is that it's only by grace. And if we can't demonstrate grace in our lives with others, how can they understand that crucial point?
because God allows everything that happens for a reason
You're forgetting this is a world of choice. Not everything happens the way God would do it, because He allows us to choose.
PeopleUnited says
And every person knows in their heart that there is a God, no matter how hard they try to tell themselves differently and justify their rebellion against Him.
I heard a story once about a missionary traveling down the river to bring the gospel to a tribe. On the way he passed a different tribe who knew he was a missionary, and desperately tried to get him to stay as his boat passed. As he went out of site down a bend in the river, he heard a great wail. Point being, not everyone gets the same opportunities to learn about God.
PeopleUnited says
Grace and Mercy abound.
From God yes, but we have a duty to personally demonstrate those qualities as well.
PeopleUnited says
well that is why everyone deserves a warning because without repentance, changing your mind about sin and rebellion against God, there can be no forgiveness.
Absolutely, don't sugar coat the truth. But also don't forget the most important part of salvation, is that it's only by grace. And if we can't demonstrate grace in our lives with others, how can they understand that crucial point?
120
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 23, 4:18pm
PeopleUnited
2022 Dec 23, 4:18pm
Well said brother.
And surely God never wanted people to suffer or die in the first place, but that is the path we all have chosen (sin). But if a person is bitter about their parents, their upbringing, how they were treated, their infirmity or unfair lot in life, they truly are bitter at God, because He reminds us that His grace is sufficient. He knows our suffering and sorrows, and He endures them with us, if we let Him. Even the apostle Paul has a chronic ailment that God did not heal him from, and only God knows for certain why all the evil things happen, but still He can turn every evil, and every pain into victory.
Not everyone has equal access to the gospel, but everyone who seeks Him will find Him, no matter the odds.
The gospel is a two edged sword, Grace yes, but repentance as well. The momentary pain of repentance is replaced by joy. But if there is no conviction, no pain of repentance, there is no salvation.
And surely God never wanted people to suffer or die in the first place, but that is the path we all have chosen (sin). But if a person is bitter about their parents, their upbringing, how they were treated, their infirmity or unfair lot in life, they truly are bitter at God, because He reminds us that His grace is sufficient. He knows our suffering and sorrows, and He endures them with us, if we let Him. Even the apostle Paul has a chronic ailment that God did not heal him from, and only God knows for certain why all the evil things happen, but still He can turn every evil, and every pain into victory.
Not everyone has equal access to the gospel, but everyone who seeks Him will find Him, no matter the odds.
The gospel is a two edged sword, Grace yes, but repentance as well. The momentary pain of repentance is replaced by joy. But if there is no conviction, no pain of repentance, there is no salvation.
121
AD
2022 Dec 23, 4:53pm
AD
2022 Dec 23, 4:53pm
Conservation of matter applies, as the universe has always existed even if its total mass has changed in shape, etc.
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The questions I have posed to numerous clergy of all denominations are as follows:
What was God doing before he started creating ?
Where was God, if there was nothing before he started creating ?
According to the physicists etc. there was nothing so how did God come out of nothing ?
https://www.cnet.com/science/stephen-hawking-tells-degrasse-tyson-what-preceded-big-bang/#:~:text=%22Nothing%20was%20around%20before%20the%20Big%2C%20Big%20Bang%2C%22,universe%20is%20best%20described%20by%20a%20Euclidean%20approach.
https://www.livescience.com/what-came-before-big-bang.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/10/05/what-existed-before-the-big-bang/?sh=67c5e507671e
So as of today I have yet to get anything but a variety of wonderful word salads for an answer from clergy of any church or denomination.
Anyone on here have something better than word salad for an answer ?