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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   53,313 views  779 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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282   PeopleUnited   2024 Jan 27, 8:43pm  

GNL says

Eman says



What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.



Anywhere, any time! 3.5 mpg.
283   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 27, 9:05pm  

GNL says

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?


Model S looks good. The rest look worse because stretching or shrinking of the original rarely match, let alone exceed it.
284   rocketjoe79   2024 Jan 27, 10:47pm  

UkraineIsFucked says







It also turns out Mississippi has the lowest per capita income of all states. California is top 5, and very high population.
Charts can lie.
285   Booger   2024 Jan 28, 6:41am  

It was never about EV vs REAL CARS. It was a trap.

https://youtu.be/fNK0mUhRKDo?si=rtHYa1l4aqvIjNfg
286   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 7:11am  

PeopleUnited says

GNL says


Eman says




What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.




Anywhere, any time! 3.5 mpg.

I didn't mean to include rock climbing. I meant anywhere as in the car won't be stranded because there's nowhere to charge it. Let's see a Telsa go the length of route 66 without getting stranded.
287   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 8:35am  

GNL says

Eman says



What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.

Is your definition of rich making 7 figures/year? Not rich is making less?

By your definition, Tesla is a real car FOR US. We haven’t had any issues going anywhere we wanted to go FOR US. We don’t own an ICE car and don’t see us going back to one in the future. 4 of our siblings are 100% Tesla households. Some are 50/50. Some get free charging at work. They work for where we live. That’s why I repeatedly said do what works for us. Do what we can control. No need to force anyone to do anything.
288   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 8:45am  

GNL says

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?

To your points, which products, could you think of, that have an ugly design and a success?

If the Cybertruck outsold the Rivian, Ford Lightning, and Hummer trucks combined in the next year or two, would you consider it’s a success?
289   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 9:05am  

Eman says

No need to force anyone to do anything.

But that's not what's going to happen. I believe things will become more and more restrictive.
290   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 9:07am  

Eman says


If the Cybertruck outsold the Rivian, Ford Lightning, and Hummer trucks combined in the next year or two, would you consider it’s a success?

Yes, depending on how many years. Hummer was big. Now I don't see them at all. Are we going to compare each vehicle at their highest sales volumes? Lots of vehicles are going to go the way of the Dodo bird simply because of the government. EVs have an unfare advantage going forward, no? I believe something similar happened that helped the VW bug sell more cars than ever in history. Would you really call that success?
291   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 9:40am  

All EV trucks are on the same playing field aren’t they? This is why I compare this “fugly” Cybertruck to other conventional looking trucks. If the goal is for the Cybertruck to over taken the F-150, I don’t see it happening.

I’m a realist. I like to compare apples to apples. I won’t wast my time with people who compare apples to oranges to make a point.

Going back to your definition of “rich”. What is your definition? I can’t answer your question if I’m rich, or not, without knowing your definition.
292   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 10:05am  

Ok, you're saying let's see if the cybertruck outsells other EV trucks? In that case, well I'm not sure. I can't imagine anyone would want the cyber truck over a "normal" looking EV truck all things considered. Yes, I guess we'll see.

Is top 10% considered rich any more?
293   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 10:21am  

GNL says

Ok, you're saying let's see if the cybertruck outsells other EV trucks? In that case, well I'm not sure. I can't imagine anyone would want the cyber truck over a "normal" looking EV truck all things considered. Yes, I guess we'll see.

Is top 10% considered rich any more?

I don’t know. You tell me since you’re the one asking the question. I don’t know what is considered rich. As I mentioned before, households in the Bay Area making $350-$500k/year consider themselves “middle class”. Is that middle class to you?
294   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 11:12am  

350-500 is upper middle class where I live. Certainly at the 500 mark.
296   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 28, 4:47pm  

Eman says

Very interesting. Who would have thought?



https://x.com/teslaconomics/status/1751653318362108182?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


What? A bunch of photoahopped Tesla Fluffing bullshit?
297   GNL   2024 Jan 28, 5:02pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

Eman says


Very interesting. Who would have thought?



https://x.com/teslaconomics/status/1751653318362108182?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


What? A bunch of photoahopped Tesla Fluffing bullshit?

Photoshop is the first thing I thought also.
298   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 5:43pm  

Not sure if it’s photoshop or not. I don’t speak the language, but heard the lady said “Cybertruck” in the video.

https://x.com/ray4tesla/status/1751648079525327166?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
299   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 5:49pm  

This is from Tesla Shanghai Analyst. Can’t be fake, or can it?

https://x.com/teslashanghai/status/1751540422722138413?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
300   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 7:17pm  

Will this guy learn it the hard way, or will the Cybertruck serve his needs just fine?



https://x.com/pmgraham86/status/1751569563412484149?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
301   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 28, 8:46pm  

Eman says

This is from Tesla Shanghai Analyst. Can’t be fake, or can it?

https://x.com/teslashanghai/status/1751540422722138413?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


Definitely. Fluffing is Fluffing.
302   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 9:46pm  

Interesting Cybertruck is not road legal in China. Why display something that Tesla cannot sell? 🤔



https://x.com/ray4tesla/status/1751812174115443008?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
303   Eman   2024 Jan 28, 9:58pm  

Why do some Chinese want to buy this not road legal Cybertruck? It’s either the coolest or the most hated truck for people.

https://x.com/jayinshanghai/status/1751788955580956853?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
304   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 29, 7:53am  

Saw at least 15 of these angular chariots yesterday while passing by local
Tesla $tealership. It's habbening! I bet next weekend there will be traffic jam on Lake Tahoe Blvd 80% made out of them.
305   HeadSet   2024 Jan 29, 10:05am  

RWSGFY says

Saw at least 15 of these angular chariots yesterday while passing by local
Tesla $tealership. It's habbening! I bet next weekend there will be traffic jam on Lake Tahoe Blvd 80% made out of them.

Tesla has dealerships now?
306   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 29, 10:15am  

HeadSet says


RWSGFY says


Saw at least 15 of these angular chariots yesterday while passing by local
Tesla $tealership. It's habbening! I bet next weekend there will be traffic jam on Lake Tahoe Blvd 80% made out of them.

Tesla has dealerships now?



Always had.


307   HeadSet   2024 Jan 29, 12:48pm  

RWSGFY says

Always had.

Interesting. I thought Tesla was direct sales only since a few years back in Virginia there was a court case about Tesla flouting a state law about how car manufacturers must sell through dealerships. I did a quick and found a Tesla dealership in Norfolk, VA, as well.
308   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 29, 12:51pm  

HeadSet says

RWSGFY says


Always had.

Interesting. I thought Tesla was direct sales only since a few years back in Virginia there was a court case about Tesla flouting a state law about how car manufacturers must sell through dealerships. I did a quick and found a Tesla dealership in Norfolk, VA, as well.


They are Tesla-owned $tealerships.
309   Eman   2024 Jan 30, 4:47pm  

Funny this also happened to me. Everything changed when Elon bought Twitter. People are sheep.



310   socal2   2024 Jan 30, 5:16pm  

Eman says

Funny this also happened to me. Everything changed when Elon bought Twitter. People are sheep.


Yup.

I remember defending Elon at this site years before he bought Twitter pointing out he was the least woke/leftist of all of the big time Silicon Valley CEO's.
311   Eman   2024 Jan 30, 7:03pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


Funny this also happened to me. Everything changed when Elon bought Twitter. People are sheep.


Yup.

I remember defending Elon at this site years before he bought Twitter pointing out he was the least woke/leftist of all of the big time Silicon Valley CEO's.

Well, you and I have been on both sides of the aisle so we speak from personal experience. People will believe what they want to believe. No point of trying to convince them.

Can’t believe the hatred I witnessed for Elon after he bought Twitter. People, who were for free speech, suddenly showed their real nature. Free speech = whatever they agree with. Otherwise, it’s hate speech.
313   WookieMan   2024 Jan 31, 5:10am  

Eman says

Can’t believe the hatred I witnessed for Elon after he bought Twitter. People, who were for free speech, suddenly showed their real nature. Free speech = whatever they agree with. Otherwise, it’s hate speech.

I actually like Musk for what that's worth. For me it's not about EV's themselves. It's about capacity. We don't have it. It's about infrastructure, we can't lose that tax revenue and repair our already shitty roads. We can't subsidize China and Africa for the minerals needed for batteries. We don't have the electric utility for it to jump even 30%.

My point has been the whole time. They're fun to drive. Not green. And cost more. No one has defeated any of these. Just enjoy it and not get defensive. No biggie on my end. Just don't make shit arguments about the car.
315   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Feb 3, 5:50pm  

Eman says






China dumping cheap EVs below cost is cooked into those figures.
316   AD   2024 Feb 3, 7:02pm  

Don't know if this was posted as far as how much Ford lost on its electric truck. Seems like Tesla is the only viable EV player. I don't think the Chinese are going to be able to dump their cheap EVs on the USA, so they'll just suck out of Tesla in China as much as they can.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ford Loses $36,000 On Every F-150 Lightning Sold – Fires 70% Of EV Workers, Ramps Up Gas Production

https://greenbuildingelements.com/ford-loses-36000-on-every-f-150-lightning-sold-fires-70-of-ev-workers-ramps-up-gas-production/

.
317   Eman   2024 Feb 3, 7:21pm  

Lucid, the California-based electric vehicle company that makes the Air Sedan, lost over $430,000 for every car it sold in the third quarter of this year, according to the firm's latest financial report.

https://insideevs.com/news/695176/lucid-lost-money-on-every-car-it-made-in-q3-2023/
318   Eman   2024 Feb 3, 7:23pm  

The standout stat in the article is that Nio loses $35,000 on every car it makes.

https://www.carscoops.com/2023/10/nio-loses-35000-a-car-that-should-scare-the-u-s-and-europe/
319   Eman   2024 Feb 3, 7:26pm  

Tesla's profit margin per car in 2023 was $8,279, compared to $9580 in 2022, over $6000 in 2021, and over $1700 in 2020.

https://fourweekmba.com/tesla-profit-margin-per-car/#:~:text=Tesla's%20profit%20margin%20per%20car,and%20over%20%241700%20in%202020.
320   WookieMan   2024 Feb 3, 7:47pm  

Tesla will do fine until it hits market saturation. Which isn't too far off at the current price point. It needs to come down 20% and at that rate it's no longer profitable. Factor in grid issues, registration, MFT and it's about to slam into a wall.

As repeated before. No issues with EV's. It's not the future though. This market literally has been discovered in the golf cart industry. Hybrids are the future. EV's only work in warm(ish) climates over short distances. Hybrids work everywhere and have better range and power. Cyber Truck is a joke and gimmick. Cool, I can tow something for 50 miles fast, which is illegal anyway so who cares?

We simply don't have the grid for it. Prices per model are too high and that's WITH subsidies. It's provably NOT green so no one can argue that. It's a sports car that's not at a Ferrari level of cost. Upper middle class. Has no balls. I was just at a chick friends house with a Tesla I've driven last night. It's a status, mid life crisis vehicle. Again, not debatable. This is a car market bubble. I can promise I know people in the know more than anyone here with regards to the car market.
321   Eman   2024 Feb 3, 10:19pm  

Someone, who owns a “real truck” probably $40-$50k new, just bought a “not real truck” for over $100k and wrapped it too. Hope he makes his money back quickly with the biz. 👊


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