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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   53,255 views  779 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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242   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:08pm  

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says


You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.






That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.
243   Eric Holder   2024 Jan 22, 2:11pm  

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.
244   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 2:15pm  

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Autistic boy replies with his same screechy bot type reply.
245   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:25pm  

Eric Holder says


Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I already did. As have others, like Wookie has.. socal2 and Eman ignored it and started Tesla Fluffing.

That's what they do. I am not going to repeat the effort of what I have presented because those two Tesla Fluff to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Go back and read thru the thread if you like. Otherwise, don't bitch about 'lack of meat'.
246   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:26pm  

socal2 says

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.


Out of context Tesla Fluffing aren't assertions.
247   HeadSet   2024 Jan 22, 4:47pm  

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.
248   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 6:21pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.


The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂
249   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 22, 7:20pm  

Eman says

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here


That's true. Out of last 4 Ubers I took 3 were Teslas.
250   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 9:20pm  

Eman says


Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂


Tesla! Tesla! Tesla!

I am not the one who is insane.

And trying to avoid facts that prove EVs are an unsustainable, inscaleable fad vs what they were hyped to be only because it shits all over your precious Tesla won't work here, either.
251   Blue   2024 Jan 22, 9:50pm  

HeadSet says


Blue says


Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.


Right, but most of the time I use ICE car for work so its not an issue to get public high speed charging point. At work, 7kw stations with 4h limit, Its not a solution for my model and also not convenient for me either. I was thinking to get a charger at home but I have similar concern like others above mentioned, fire hazard! Overall its a mixed bag!
252   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 11:31pm  

Eman says

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be. This topic is one of them. Just because you see a lot of Teslas in your state and it seems normal, it's simply another luxury car in the rest of the country. I've been to CA enough to see all these people trying too hard by buying BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, Tesla, etc. It's literally half the cars on the road out there. I laugh when I see it because it's a waste of money on cars with no utility.

I'll be out in Montana Wednesday. I'm gonna make note of how many Teslas I see during the trip. I know for a fact it's going to be Toyota and Subaru by a long shot. This is why I ask if you leave CA often. Your view on cars is simply that of insecure men that want something cool in California. No different than in the 90's you'd buy a Corvette or Dodge Viper. I'm not wrong and this has been my point in all my comments. It's a cool car that's NOT cheaper than comparative ICE vehicles, yet you keep saying it's saving you $300/mo. You paid $70k to save $3k/yr in gas?? When you could have paid $50k for a hybrid and still saved $300/mo and invest the $20k difference. There's no logic to that.

You have a right to defend your purchase as much as you want. It's simply not smart or logical by any metric. That would be like over paying for an investment property because it looked cool, when you could have bought an okay looking investment property and made more. You did that buying a Tesla. Poor use of money because it drives fun and you thought it saves you money. It wastes money. Doesn't save. Just admit you guys bought them for fun. You know I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive of a car.
253   Eman   2024 Jan 23, 7:09am  

My Tesla is hell of fun to drive I don’t dispute it. The instant torque is addictive. It puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. How much does that worth? Can anyone put a dollar amount on this?

I already shared what I was looking to buy at the time. Let’s compare apples to apples. Which $77k car, which doesn’t cost money to fuel (free supercharging for life), can do 0-60 in 4.2 sec, fun to drive, has air suspensions (something people will appreciate as you get older) with advanced hitech and autopilot?

With respect to status, you have no clue what it means in the Bay Area. Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

If I want status, I’d live in Atherton, or Hillsborough, or Los Altos Hills, or Palo Alto. In fact, I’ve thought about it for the sake of my daughter to be in a different sphere of friends. I asked her about it. She said she likes her friends here. Doesn’t want to move.
254   WookieMan   2024 Jan 23, 8:13am  

Eman says

Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

You still are missing the point. You are not living in reality. Your reality is going to come crumbling down. When was the last time you left CA, again? You live in over leveraged moron land. No one can afford those cars and aren't making $500k. You might be which is awesome. I do that in a land where $80k is a good family income and so is most of the country. I live modestly because I like where I'm at and there's no shit on the street and the people are amazing.

Just admit you haven't left CA in years. Name a spot you traveled? I'll post a screen shot at Bozeman/Yellowstone airport tomorrow if there's no delays in the afternoon and they hate Californians moving there. You don't get out of CA enough and live in a weird echo chamber you think is normal. Model 3 could maybe get by as an upper end car, but all other models are luxury cars.

CA is a pinkies up, yuppie state. It's not jealousy either. It's observing stupidity on my visits. I can't recall what model you have. Hopefully an X and you're writing it off the RE business. Much bigger tax incentive than other models besides Cyber Truck now. $7,500 is a joke on a $70k car. Again I'd take a $50k hybrid, invest the difference that pays me money and STILL pay $0 in gas. So I'm not saving, I'm making money. You're losing money owning a Tesla. Enjoy it I suppose, I'm not of that mindset.

Obviously I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree overall. Oh well. But I genuinely want to know when and where was the last time you've left CA for travel? It does matter because I think people do take your RE opinion at face value. I have. I just don't think you know the rest of the country. If you love it, get to know it dude. I get RE is scalable anywhere, but your take on cars is some CA disinformation in my opinion.
256   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 23, 3:34pm  

EV charging station in lovely Alaska. Look ma! No waiting like in Chicago!


257   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 6:15pm  

WookieMan says

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be.


Trust me - you don't want anything California is offering other than our perfect weather, natural beauty and Tesla!

I travel about every other week in the Western half of the US for work (Northern California, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Montana) and a couple East Coast trips a year. I grew up in the Midwest and go back home to visit frequently. Yes, California is Tesla Mecca because Tesla was founded here and there are alot of rich early adopters in the Bay Area that could afford them 10 years ago and were attracted to the perceived greenness of the car.

But Tesla's are now much more affordable instead of just being a rich man's toy and will only get cheaper as they continue to ramp production and introduce the Model 2. People like me (who don't care about climate change) can now afford them and we get them because they are a total blast to drive.

I convinced one of my burly aftermarket sales guy who covers heavy equipment in the water industry in the Pacific NW to get a Model Y last year and he loves it. He gets some grief from some of his rural customers until they drive it.

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.
258   GNL   2024 Jan 23, 7:13pm  

@socal2, you own your own business?
259   HeadSet   2024 Jan 23, 7:32pm  

socal2 says

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.
260   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 8:02pm  

GNL says

socal2, you own your own business?


No - I manage the West Region for a large water technology and infrastructure company. I was referring to "my guys" as my sales engineers who cover the territory and travel by car frequently. When I first started here about 3 years ago, I was the "new" senior guy they hired from SoCal and I'm visiting branches in Montana and Idaho talking up Tesla and surfing and they all thought I was a liberal California douche until they got to know my politics and drive my car!
261   ForcedTQ   2024 Jan 23, 9:01pm  

HeadSet says

socal2 says


No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.

At that point it may make sense to build retrofit packs for some of the EVs with high production figures and make solid state conversion batteries/controllers that will extend the life of the appliances.
262   WookieMan   2024 Jan 23, 10:00pm  

socal2 says

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

Where? Was just there this time last year roughly. Didn't see one Tesla. Was in Bozeman, Belgrade, Ennis, Livingston, Missoula and Big Sky (yuppieville). I've been in summer and winter for about a decade visiting every year. Never have seen a Tesla. Cyber trucks are obviously delivering at this point. I bet I don't see one. About the only thing you do is drive in MT. We'll see.

My point has been you CA guys are in a high cost of living area. So seeing a Tesla isn't a big deal because wages have to match the high cost of living. Tesla is reaching market saturation as well. Men want to wrench on a car. Not drive a golf cart. I actually do drive a golf cart. I like Musk as a person without knowing him. They're fun to drive, but so are a lot of other cars at lower prices. Depends on your needs. I need utility and Tesla has yet to provide that. It's just a zippy car that you pay double for than any similar size/model of car.

I'll take my bigger car and gas all day. It just makes more sense and is still cheaper. Enjoy a Tesla. There's a tidal wave of taxes and fees coming. You've been warned. You know the water industry and I'd listen to your input. Your fees whether it be at a charging station, your home with increased rates on electric based on registration or a flat out 4 figure tax annually when you renew is coming. They're coming for you. We don't have the grid. Especially CA. It's not your fault but your roads suck. Every EV takes away road taxes (MFT).

I've yet to see a user deny that Tesla is a good car. We're talking price, utility, range, charging, etc. If you drive 10 miles a day congrats on living close to work. That's not sarcasm either. A Tesla works for you. It doesn't for 70%+ of the population. They either can't afford it or need more utility. It's a novelty car.
263   AD   2024 Jan 26, 6:11pm  

.

Tesla only about 25% above fall of 2020 price level ... Tesla's real return is 25% minus 15% inflation, or 10% since 2020

.
264   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 10:07am  

For anyone who hasn’t driven a Tesla, or own one, give it a try and experience it first hand. I agree with this poster’s write up.

“Tesla is increasingly politicized. The extreme circumstances of which I don't think any car manufacturer has ever seen or endured this long. This is unfortunate and unfair to the designers, engineers, and the vehicles themselves to not get a fair shake. I think the way to overcome that is once again to get butts in seats. Without experiencing it personally, everyone will naturally reach an uninformed initial opinion of something when it is inherently foreign to them and divisive in nature. However, that surface-level prejudiced opinion (prejudiced, btw, on both excessively negative and excessively positive sides) melts away when it becomes a real, lasting experience like I've had the pleasure to have. It then is no longer a conceptual debate but is a life experience. Then, the odds of a more accurate understanding increase tenfold.”

https://x.com/unpluggedtesla/status/1751284051556835779?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

I’m also an early reservation holder for the Cybertruck and has been asked to design mine and take delivery. Due to the GVWR if the CT, it qualifies for IRS Section 179 business deduction.


265   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 11:12am  

Experience from a truck driver who had never driven a Tesla before. Seems like Semi trucks work for regional for now. Tesla is working on ramping up Semi production this year. Cost savings, or not, will be determine in the coming years.

https://x.com/gailalfaratx/status/1751246432584003679?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

https://x.com/evasteslasplaid/status/1750843655634530477?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
266   Onvacation   2024 Jan 27, 11:58am  

WookieMan says

So seeing a Tesla isn't a big deal because wages have to match the high cost of living.

We got so many Teslas that the HOV lane is the slow lane.
267   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 1:08pm  

This is just too funny. I'm supposed to ignore everything about EVs just because I like how it accelerates? Too funny. Wookieman has detailed the ridiculousness of EVs already. I will say that IMO the green agenda is all about 1 thing and 1 thing only...$$. How do you make ungodly amounts of money if you are a partner with the government? I'm not talking about just Elon. I'm talking about every politician and corporation that stands to gain monetarily. Change. Change, especially when you can front run the change, is extremely profitable. EVs simply do not make sense over an ICE vehicle.


268   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 1:14pm  

If that's a truck, then this is a breathing device....




269   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 6:17pm  

The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It’s definitely not for everyone. Some people are going nuts with their Cybertruck.

It’s also interesting to know where the designer got their concept/design from.
















270   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 7:13pm  

You're a rich guy right, Eman? Why not get yourself a real car.


273   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 7:16pm  

Why does Tesla feel they must be different to the point of making ugly vehicles? They have even less, I assume, restraints on design.
274   HeadSet   2024 Jan 27, 7:29pm  

GNL says

Why does Tesla focus on making ugly vehicles? They have even less, I assume, restraints on design.

Status. While some one may mistake your Model 3 for a Nissan or Toyota, no one will mistake that cybertruck for anything but a Tesla.
275   HeadSet   2024 Jan 27, 7:34pm  

Eman says

The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the behold

True, but Honda and GM tried a different look for a pickup (original Honda Ridgeline, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade Truck), but all went back to the conventional looking pickup.
276   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:00pm  

Tesla's design is not an improvement. No, in fact it's a downgrade in design and functionality.
277   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:05pm  

Beauty is beauty. I guess Tesla doesn't believe they can compete with beautiful cars. Seriously, no one ever creates something with the intent of the thing being ugly. Or do they? Are there any examples of where a manufacturer created something with the intention of the thing look different for the sole purpose of looking different? Even to the point that 1. The design sucks 2. It's fugly and 3. It was/is a successful product?
278   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:12pm  

Communism always creates ugly shit.
279   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 8:13pm  

GNL says

You're a rich guy right, Eman? Why not get yourself a real car.




What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

A buyer of a Tesla Model S is not in a market for a Camry hybrid or not. A person buying a new Model X is not in the market for a Rav 4 or a Nissan Armada, forget about a used one. This is why I insisted on comparing apples to apples.
280   Eman   2024 Jan 27, 8:18pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


The Cybertruck may look unconventional to some, but beauty is in the eye of the behold

True, but Honda and GM tried a different look for a pickup (original Honda Ridgeline, Chevy Avalanche, Cadillac Escalade Truck), but all went back to the conventional looking pickup.

I guess this is why the Rivian truck is doing well? It’s more conventional looking than the Cybertruck? People vote with their checkbook. Let’s give it a year or two and see how the Cybertruck does compared to the Rivian. I don’t think the Ford Lightning is doing as well as the Rivian.
281   GNL   2024 Jan 27, 8:37pm  

Eman says


What is your definition of rich? What is a real car? Honest questions. There must be some basis to compare.

I assume your income is in the 7 figures. A real car is, IMO, a car that can go anywhere at any time. Tesla cannot do that.

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