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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   51,459 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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222   richwicks   2024 Jan 21, 5:11pm  

Eman says




🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


A trillion? I'm very doubtful of that. I think what they are doing is including the ENTIRE US military budget in that calculation.

There should be no subsidies whatsoever. Eliminate them, and we will end up with the best solution if we allow the market to decide.
223   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 5:32pm  

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

https://apple.news/AoJQFQaBXQ6K7K3W3BBdE0w
224   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 5:00am  

RWSGFY says


"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

lol. You can't go full retard.

original link

Extra edit: This is just a rental. This guy spells it out almost exactly as imagined IMHO. And that doesn't include the price of the car if it was purchased and not a rental. They're not cheaper.
226   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 7:29am  

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.
227   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 7:58am  

Eman says

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

You don't think like a business person though. You buy a big vehicle and get the better tax incentive and write the gas off and it's cheaper than a Tesla and has more function. Again, you wanted a fun to drive car and status. There's nothing more to this. If you're truly a business owner and investor you would have taken advantage of this. You didn't.

I buy used cars because they're cheaper and I'm not an idiot. I don't need a fancy or fast car. There's literally no reason for it besides ego. Nothing else. I'll say it again and again and again. It's a fun car to drive. It's stupid to own one. I guess I like to work with my hands and not drive a baby car around. I need to tow stuff. Tesla's wouldn't even charge last week in Chicago. You got yourself a $70k paperweight.

Eman says

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

19 years, lol. Rarely does anyone live in a home that long. You just covered someone else's electric bill. Even if you did the next Tesla will be $100k and the next $150k by then. You literally don't have any savings dude. You paid for a car on a monthly basis for solar on your roof, financed to charge your expensive car... Dude, you're not making any sense.

You still haven't factored in the charges that are coming. It will be even more expensive. Especially in CA. Rising state income taxes, more EV's on the road and there will be a EVT (electric vehicle tax). Your utility is going to charge you more. For the 40th time or whatever. You bought a car that is fun to drive and you like it. It's not cheaper. It's not green. Just say that. You're trying to justify something that isn't true by any data readily available.
228   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 7:59am  

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.


Hahaha
229   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 8:14am  

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says


I understand numbers.


Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.
230   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 8:38am  

We’ll have to agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on this issue.

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here
231   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 9:21am  

“19 years”

It’s more often than you think. Ask all homeowners on Patnet how long have they been in their house?

We might be the exception, but I’ve been in our house for over 20 years. My older sister has been in hers for 27 years. Younger brothers 13-14 years. Youngest sister is 5+ years. She’ll likely keep it as a rental when she upgrades in the coming years. Low property tax basis, low fixed mortgage rate so why not. I bought this place 12 years ago during the downturn and she “inherited” the low basis.

Wife’s siblings, her youngest brother last move was 9 years ago. All others have been in theirs for 14-25 years.
232   GNL   2024 Jan 22, 10:23am  

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.
233   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 11:30am  

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.


The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..
234   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 11:42am  

WookieMan says

UkraineIsFucked says


WookieMan says



I understand numbers.


Hahaha


misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.


Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles. If you are only in a market for a basic 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to get you around, Tesla would still be a luxury.

EV prices (at least Teslas) will continue to drop as Tesla continues to revolutionize manufacturing and battery production. Tesla has already dramatically reduced the cost of batteries and have been creating a price war in the last 6 months that is killing the other OEMs.

Guarantee you that Tesla will be able to manage their COGS a fuck-ton better than the other OEM's are going to manage their Union labor and pension costs they just dramatically jacked up last year.


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-ev-market-ice-price-parity-2023/


235   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 12:05pm  

socal2 says

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles.


So? The COST of them is several times over.
236   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 12:13pm  

GNL says

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.


I know the average is 7 years, but it’s not common in my sphere of friends and family. We’re likely the exceptions. Maybe different cultures handle/view housing differently. Highly likely I’ll die in this house.
237   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 12:18pm  

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.
238   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 12:20pm  

Eman says

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.


So what?

Doesn't change reality.
239   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 12:37pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

So? The COST of them is several times over.


No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?


240   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 1:23pm  

socal2 says

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?


You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.
241   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 1:56pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.



242   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 2:08pm  

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says


You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.






That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.
243   Eric Holder   2024 Jan 22, 2:11pm  

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.
244   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 2:15pm  

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Autistic boy replies with his same screechy bot type reply.
245   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 2:25pm  

Eric Holder says


Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I already did. As have others, like Wookie has.. socal2 and Eman ignored it and started Tesla Fluffing.

That's what they do. I am not going to repeat the effort of what I have presented because those two Tesla Fluff to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Go back and read thru the thread if you like. Otherwise, don't bitch about 'lack of meat'.
246   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 2:26pm  

socal2 says

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.


Out of context Tesla Fluffing aren't assertions.
247   HeadSet   2024 Jan 22, 4:47pm  

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.
248   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 6:21pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.


The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂
249   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 22, 7:20pm  

Eman says

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here


That's true. Out of last 4 Ubers I took 3 were Teslas.
250   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 22, 9:20pm  

Eman says


Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂


Tesla! Tesla! Tesla!

I am not the one who is insane.

And trying to avoid facts that prove EVs are an unsustainable, inscaleable fad vs what they were hyped to be only because it shits all over your precious Tesla won't work here, either.
251   Blue   2024 Jan 22, 9:50pm  

HeadSet says


Blue says


Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.


Right, but most of the time I use ICE car for work so its not an issue to get public high speed charging point. At work, 7kw stations with 4h limit, Its not a solution for my model and also not convenient for me either. I was thinking to get a charger at home but I have similar concern like others above mentioned, fire hazard! Overall its a mixed bag!
252   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 11:31pm  

Eman says

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be. This topic is one of them. Just because you see a lot of Teslas in your state and it seems normal, it's simply another luxury car in the rest of the country. I've been to CA enough to see all these people trying too hard by buying BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, Tesla, etc. It's literally half the cars on the road out there. I laugh when I see it because it's a waste of money on cars with no utility.

I'll be out in Montana Wednesday. I'm gonna make note of how many Teslas I see during the trip. I know for a fact it's going to be Toyota and Subaru by a long shot. This is why I ask if you leave CA often. Your view on cars is simply that of insecure men that want something cool in California. No different than in the 90's you'd buy a Corvette or Dodge Viper. I'm not wrong and this has been my point in all my comments. It's a cool car that's NOT cheaper than comparative ICE vehicles, yet you keep saying it's saving you $300/mo. You paid $70k to save $3k/yr in gas?? When you could have paid $50k for a hybrid and still saved $300/mo and invest the $20k difference. There's no logic to that.

You have a right to defend your purchase as much as you want. It's simply not smart or logical by any metric. That would be like over paying for an investment property because it looked cool, when you could have bought an okay looking investment property and made more. You did that buying a Tesla. Poor use of money because it drives fun and you thought it saves you money. It wastes money. Doesn't save. Just admit you guys bought them for fun. You know I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive of a car.
253   Eman   2024 Jan 23, 7:09am  

My Tesla is hell of fun to drive I don’t dispute it. The instant torque is addictive. It puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. How much does that worth? Can anyone put a dollar amount on this?

I already shared what I was looking to buy at the time. Let’s compare apples to apples. Which $77k car, which doesn’t cost money to fuel (free supercharging for life), can do 0-60 in 4.2 sec, fun to drive, has air suspensions (something people will appreciate as you get older) with advanced hitech and autopilot?

With respect to status, you have no clue what it means in the Bay Area. Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

If I want status, I’d live in Atherton, or Hillsborough, or Los Altos Hills, or Palo Alto. In fact, I’ve thought about it for the sake of my daughter to be in a different sphere of friends. I asked her about it. She said she likes her friends here. Doesn’t want to move.
254   WookieMan   2024 Jan 23, 8:13am  

Eman says

Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

You still are missing the point. You are not living in reality. Your reality is going to come crumbling down. When was the last time you left CA, again? You live in over leveraged moron land. No one can afford those cars and aren't making $500k. You might be which is awesome. I do that in a land where $80k is a good family income and so is most of the country. I live modestly because I like where I'm at and there's no shit on the street and the people are amazing.

Just admit you haven't left CA in years. Name a spot you traveled? I'll post a screen shot at Bozeman/Yellowstone airport tomorrow if there's no delays in the afternoon and they hate Californians moving there. You don't get out of CA enough and live in a weird echo chamber you think is normal. Model 3 could maybe get by as an upper end car, but all other models are luxury cars.

CA is a pinkies up, yuppie state. It's not jealousy either. It's observing stupidity on my visits. I can't recall what model you have. Hopefully an X and you're writing it off the RE business. Much bigger tax incentive than other models besides Cyber Truck now. $7,500 is a joke on a $70k car. Again I'd take a $50k hybrid, invest the difference that pays me money and STILL pay $0 in gas. So I'm not saving, I'm making money. You're losing money owning a Tesla. Enjoy it I suppose, I'm not of that mindset.

Obviously I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree overall. Oh well. But I genuinely want to know when and where was the last time you've left CA for travel? It does matter because I think people do take your RE opinion at face value. I have. I just don't think you know the rest of the country. If you love it, get to know it dude. I get RE is scalable anywhere, but your take on cars is some CA disinformation in my opinion.
256   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 23, 3:34pm  

EV charging station in lovely Alaska. Look ma! No waiting like in Chicago!


257   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 6:15pm  

WookieMan says

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be.


Trust me - you don't want anything California is offering other than our perfect weather, natural beauty and Tesla!

I travel about every other week in the Western half of the US for work (Northern California, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Montana) and a couple East Coast trips a year. I grew up in the Midwest and go back home to visit frequently. Yes, California is Tesla Mecca because Tesla was founded here and there are alot of rich early adopters in the Bay Area that could afford them 10 years ago and were attracted to the perceived greenness of the car.

But Tesla's are now much more affordable instead of just being a rich man's toy and will only get cheaper as they continue to ramp production and introduce the Model 2. People like me (who don't care about climate change) can now afford them and we get them because they are a total blast to drive.

I convinced one of my burly aftermarket sales guy who covers heavy equipment in the water industry in the Pacific NW to get a Model Y last year and he loves it. He gets some grief from some of his rural customers until they drive it.

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.
258   GNL   2024 Jan 23, 7:13pm  

@socal2, you own your own business?
259   HeadSet   2024 Jan 23, 7:32pm  

socal2 says

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.
260   socal2   2024 Jan 23, 8:02pm  

GNL says

socal2, you own your own business?


No - I manage the West Region for a large water technology and infrastructure company. I was referring to "my guys" as my sales engineers who cover the territory and travel by car frequently. When I first started here about 3 years ago, I was the "new" senior guy they hired from SoCal and I'm visiting branches in Montana and Idaho talking up Tesla and surfing and they all thought I was a liberal California douche until they got to know my politics and drive my car!
261   ForcedTQ   2024 Jan 23, 9:01pm  

HeadSet says

socal2 says


No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.

At that point it may make sense to build retrofit packs for some of the EVs with high production figures and make solid state conversion batteries/controllers that will extend the life of the appliances.

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