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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   28,742 views  695 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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637   Eman   2024 Mar 9, 11:35am  

GNL says

socal2 says



Absolutely it can. It is perfect for localized farm work. Same thing for heavy construction, landscaping, local deliveries and majority jobs that don't require daily long hauls.

Next question: can it do it better and more economically than an F-150?




These questions should be asked directly to the farmers. Only they know why they’re doing it. We’re speculating at best from the sidelines.

Maybe SoCal has a farming history, or a farmer himself so he can answer these questions. That would be so cool.

With respect to driving Tesla is a status symbol, someone mentioned this on X that a new Model Y sells for $36.5k after the Fed $7.5k tax credit while an average new ICE car sells for over $46k. I didn’t know this fact. Now I know what status means from some Patnet folks.
638   GNL   2024 Mar 9, 4:12pm  

Eman says

With respect to driving Tesla is a status symbol, someone mentioned this on X that a new Model Y sells for $36.5k after the Fed $7.5k tax credit while an average new ICE car sells for over $46k. I didn’t know this fact. Now I know what status means from some Patnet folks

Maybe it's less about status and more about virtue signaling?
639   Eman   2024 Mar 9, 5:47pm  

GNL says

Eman says


With respect to driving Tesla is a status symbol, someone mentioned this on X that a new Model Y sells for $36.5k after the Fed $7.5k tax credit while an average new ICE car sells for over $46k. I didn’t know this fact. Now I know what status means from some Patnet folks

Maybe it's less about status and more about virtue signaling?

I’m not sure what you mean by virtue signaling. Both SoCal and I bought Teslas because they’re fun to drive, and they serve our purpose. The tax credit and business deduction were some nice icing on the cake.
640   GNL   2024 Mar 9, 6:55pm  

Eman says

GNL says


Eman says



With respect to driving Tesla is a status symbol, someone mentioned this on X that a new Model Y sells for $36.5k after the Fed $7.5k tax credit while an average new ICE car sells for over $46k. I didn’t know this fact. Now I know what status means from some Patnet folks

Maybe it's less about status and more about virtue signaling?


I’m not sure what you mean by virtue signaling. Both SoCal and I bought Teslas because they’re fun to drive, and they serve our purpose. The tax credit and business deduction were some nice icing on the cake.

I'm wasn't referring to you and SoCal. I do think lots of Tesla owners think they're saving the planet though.
641   HeadSet   2024 Mar 9, 7:15pm  

GNL says

I do think lots of Tesla owners think they're saving the planet though.

That used to be the job of a Prius.
642   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 10, 8:08am  

GNL says

I'm wasn't referring to you and SoCal. I do think lots of Tesla owners think they're saving the planet though.


You should have.
643   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 1:36pm  

Interesting statistics, not professionally compiled of course. Does this make the Cybertruck a SUT now? Selling 250k of these CT annually? Pipe dream?



https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1766895549763232145?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
644   WookieMan   2024 Mar 10, 2:42pm  

Eman says

The Tesla community has shared construction worker hauling sheetrock with the Cybertruck and farmer hauling hay with theirs too.

I can put sheetrock IN my Armada OR on the roof with ease. AND still fit at least a 3rd passenger if I wanted. With the roof option probably 10 sheets and still put 7 people in there. AND tow 9k lbs at the same time. You absolute Cannot do that with a Cyber truck or any pickup truck period.

I frankly don't like any pickup trucks for non-business use. Maybe if you're a bachelor. I do tend to believe dudes driving around in pickup trucks are generally closeted gays if it's not primarily for daily work. There's no need for it. Even 4 door models are gay to drive around in for the 3-5 times a year you might need to use the bed on a Home Depot trip or drag a kayak around or something. It's a waste.

So my take isn't really about the EV part of it, though that just makes it overpriced waste. There's these things called trailers. They're bigger than truck beds and can hold more weight. I appreciated you admit it's fun to drive and that's basically it. That's not worth $30-50k more and waiting in line to charge for an hour to get 100 miles. I could do that for $25 of gas in 3 minutes and not wait.

Sorry
645   WookieMan   2024 Mar 10, 2:56pm  

Eman says

These questions should be asked directly to the farmers. Only they know why they’re doing it. We’re speculating at best from the sidelines.

I actually have asked a farmer with 8,000 acres that I grew up with and now our kids are friends go to the same school. It's a solid no. At least in IL 100%. He wouldn't bull shit me. He's my age and been farming his whole life. He's smart and knows what he needs to farm here and it was a resounding no.

How much bed is left in the truck when you put a diesel tank in there with 200 gallons fuel all the time? Then any gear you need. You'd maybe get 50 miles out of that. Real farmers easily will drive that in a day, especially seasonal crops for harvesting. That's why in my previous comment I mentioned the utility of trucks and it only being practical for work. Cyber Truck isn't. I've looked up the specs. A farmer also cannot wait around for it to charge either. This topic on the truck in frankly not debatable.
646   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 3:11pm  

Good news for ICE drivers. I guess EV drivers help to put a dent in the gasoline consumption. Hope gasoline prices will come down.



https://x.com/johnrhanger/status/1766817407115345986?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
647   WookieMan   2024 Mar 10, 3:12pm  

Eman says

With respect to driving Tesla is a status symbol, someone mentioned this on X that a new Model Y sells for $36.5k after the Fed $7.5k tax credit while an average new ICE car sells for over $46k. I didn’t know this fact. Now I know what status means from some Patnet folks.

Gonna pull a Rich on this one. Link? My mom's RAV4 hybrid can run 90 miles on electric, so an easy daily commute for 95% of the population probably. She basically has an EV and can still fill it up with gas and go 300-400 miles in one drive. And can always just gas up quick if on a road trip and not have to find charging stations.

She loves it and it was cheaper than $46k. And can tow decent weight for a mid sized SUV. New ICE cars are not that expensive unless you're including super high end cars. Straight non-hybrid cars prices are not bad at all for similar sized Teslas. So taking an average of all ICE cars is misleading.
648   WookieMan   2024 Mar 10, 3:15pm  

Eman says

Good news for ICE drivers. I guess EV drivers help to put a dent in the gasoline consumption. Hope gasoline prices will come down.

Natural gas prices and electric rates will go up.... You seriously can't be this obtuse? Not trying to be a dick, but power has to come from somewhere. They are going to charge you more my friend based on registration. With the subsidy they won't feel as bad raising rates and taxes on EV owners. It's coming dude.
649   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 3:19pm  

Wookie,

Do you read what you write? Why is it always about you? Each vehicle is designed with a purpose and cater to different group of people. The Cybertruck may not be for you or your farmer friend, but it suits other people and farmer. I show proof while you’re all talk without any proof.

Why do you think people pay $4M for a Bugatti? Do you believe you’re smarter than someone who owns a Bugatti?
650   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 3:21pm  

WookieMan says

Eman says


Good news for ICE drivers. I guess EV drivers help to put a dent in the gasoline consumption. Hope gasoline prices will come down.

Natural gas prices and electric rates will go up.... You seriously can't be this obtuse? Not trying to be a dick, but power has to come from somewhere. They are going to charge you more my friend based on registration. With the subsidy they won't feel as bad raising rates and taxes on EV owners. It's coming dude.

Tell me something I don’t know. I’ve witnessed it for years. That was why I got solar. Someone already mentioned that CA has included $175 surcharge for EVs to make up for the loss of revenue as they’re not paying gas taxes. Did you see that?
651   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 3:30pm  

When was the last time any here is excited about buying a car or truck like this guy? There’s something about the Cybertruck that make people either love it, or hate it.



https://x.com/dirtytesla/status/1766610256661020813?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
652   WookieMan   2024 Mar 10, 4:25pm  

Eman says

Why do you think people pay $4M for a Bugatti? Do you believe you’re smarter than someone who owns a Bugatti?

It's a cool looking car that has actual craftsmanship. As GNL said some cars are art. Not my style personally so I'm not a Bugatti fan either. Teslas just aren't good looking cars. Again as others have said it's virtue signaling when the cars are worse for the environment. They're ugly with no utility. So is a Bugatti in my world. I don't care about speed or looks. I need to get shit done and raise a family and not worry about being "hip."

There's not a single model of Tesla that looks good. It's fine they hold up well in accidents. All modern cars do. I promise you if I T-boned any model of Tesla (besides the truck) going 55 there's a death or ambulance coming at minimum. It's just an overpriced car. You've answer that you like acceleration. That's worth it for frankly a stupid thought process. I'm clearly not changing that and it's actually fact, not opinion.

I could make $10M a year and I would have no interest in it or any fancy/expensive car. It's a waste. I'd rather take a trip with the wife and kids 10 times a year before you make up the difference my car costs and has utility. I just did, hence why I'm catching up with this thread. It was a blast. Couples trip with a VRBO in Galena, IL. Sex twice daily. Hot tub. Great restaurant, like actual good food. Hanging with good friends. I give no shit about the speed and acceleration of a car that got me to Galena because I have to follow the speed limit.

Maybe get off X. That's most of your posts recently. If you don't think their algorithms are gonna feed you his products you've clearly been bought and sold. I don't know, I do things with my hands and time. You can't do that with a Tesla.... It's not opinion either. Hybrids are the future and cheaper AND greener if you're into that. I'm not sure why we go back and forth on this. You like acceleration. It's not better or cheaper than similar sized cars besides acceleration. Is a field of beaten dead horses in your back yard?
653   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Mar 10, 6:49pm  

The article on page B1 of this weekend's WSJ is about a Tiger Mom drowning in her status symbol SUV on her Texas Ranch.

She was the sister of Trump's Transportation Secretary.

" The Death of Angela Chao: A Mistake in a Tesla and a Panicked Phone Call."
"What happened on a remote Texas ranch in a billionaire shipping scion's final hours".

by Valerie Bauerlein and others.
654   Eman   2024 Mar 10, 8:11pm  

B.A.C.A.H. says

The article on page B1 of this weekend's WSJ is about a Tiger Mom drowning in her status symbol SUV on her Texas Ranch.

She was the sister of Trump's Transportation Secretary.

" The Death of Angela Chao: A Mistake in a Tesla and a Panicked Phone Call."
"What happened on a remote Texas ranch in a billionaire shipping scion's final hours".

by Valerie Bauerlein and others.

“Although the preliminary investigation indicated this was an unfortunate accident, the Sheriff’s Office is still investigating this accident as a criminal matter until they have sufficient evidence to rule out criminal activity,” the Blanco County Sheriff’s Office wrote in a Thursday letter to state Attorney General Ken Paxton.

“This incident was not a typical accident,” the agency added.

Chao’s sister Elaine Chao is married to McConnell and served as Secretary of Labor under President George W. Bush and Secretary of Transportation in President Donald Trump’s administration.

https://nypost.com/2024/03/09/us-news/angela-chao-made-panicked-call-before-dying-in-completely-submerged-tesla-on-texas-ranch/amp/
655   GNL   2024 Mar 10, 9:08pm  

B.A.C.A.H. says

her status symbol SUV on her Texas Ranch.

It was a cyber truck?
656   WookieMan   2024 Mar 11, 4:15pm  

GNL says

B.A.C.A.H. says


her status symbol SUV on her Texas Ranch.

It was a cyber truck?

Either way, sounds like she was drunk given the time. Some people have no business having even one beer and getting behind the wheel. At that time it was likely more than that. A car that accelerates fast and your responses are slow. There's a reason insurance companies charge more for certain cars. They kill more people no matter how "safe" they are.
658   WookieMan   2024 Mar 13, 8:08am  

NuttBoxer says

Electric cars pollute over 1,000 times more than gas. Why am I not surprised...

This has been known. Maybe not so much in different states as far as the grid goes. EV's make amazing sense for 3 seasons here in IL. Winter... lol hell no. We have the most nukes is why I say that. Some of the largest wind farms. They're getting going with solar as well. We have little coal plants. And supplement with nat gas. But if the car doesn't work in the winter cold there's no point here. Add that 2nd car onto the cost that works when it's cold.

ICE cars just work everywhere. Including the hybrid variety. If people want to accelerate fast and speed and break laws, go ahead. Not worth it to me to drive a car with no utility and as you say worse for the environment. In IL technically from a charging perspective they're pretty green. Just not functional.

Fact is, depending on your grid and if you can't charge, you're up shits creek of bull shit without a car. I can't be in that position. Never will be. Kind of like the vaccine. Not doing it. Not getting an EV in my lifetime. I need security of being able to move about for my family and myself. And for that reason I'll always be out on pure EV's. Accelerating fast doesn't move me. I'd rather pull over on a gravel road and get a BJ.
659   Patrick   2024 Mar 14, 11:53am  

Eman says

Chao’s sister Elaine Chao is married to McConnell and served as Secretary of Labor under President George W. Bush and Secretary of Transportation in President Donald Trump’s administration.





She was a billionaire?
660   RWSGFY   2024 Mar 14, 4:11pm  

What is the point of breaking glass when all you need is to wait until car is filled with water, thus equalizing inside and outside pressure, and simply open the door using a mechanical handle*?

*) Yes, Teslas have these and they are rather intuitive to find, unlike ones in Corvettes.
661   HeadSet   2024 Mar 14, 6:37pm  

RWSGFY says

What is the point of breaking glass when all you need is to wait until car is filled with water, thus equalizing inside and outside pressure, and simply open the door using a mechanical handle?

) Yes, Teslas have these and they are rather intuitive to find, unlike ones in Corvettes.

Does the battery short out when the car is submerged? If so, maybe the driver was shocked unconscious.
662   WookieMan   2024 Mar 15, 1:16am  

HeadSet says

RWSGFY says

What is the point of breaking glass when all you need is to wait until car is filled with water, thus equalizing inside and outside pressure, and simply open the door using a mechanical handle?

) Yes, Teslas have these and they are rather intuitive to find, unlike ones in Corvettes.

Does the battery short out when the car is submerged? If so, maybe the driver was shocked unconscious.

I'd go a step further. Don't submerge a car... Tesla or any model. But my guess is she just drove safely... lol, with acceleration she couldn't control...

This is why I laugh at the people and the acceleration. Illegal and dangerous. I'll admit I crashed into my own car in my driveway because of the speed of the cart going in reverse. Popped the entire bumper of my car off. Fortunately could clip it back in place and no cosmetic damage. Electric has massive torque and acceleration if you're not used to it.

People think EV's are fun to drive, but they are dangerous. The speed picks up so quick. We're giving unskilled drivers the ability to drive cars 0-60 in seconds. I'm not sure when that became a good idea? Women aren't buying Covettes or similar. They're buying Teslas they have no clue how to handle.

Since my seizure the wife drives. I wear a relief band for nausea and she's actually a decent driver. Call me sexist but I won't drive with women drivers. I have to be hammered to not drive myself. Now throw them in a Tesla at 10pm after a few drinks. Fuck no.
663   socal2   2024 Mar 15, 12:52pm  

WookieMan says

I'd go a step further. Don't submerge a car... Tesla or any model.


Actually, Tesla's do very well under water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwmAMNI9qk
664   GNL   2024 Mar 15, 6:37pm  

The Pinto is the poster car, supposedly, of incompetent engineering.

"But the Pinto was, otherwise, not an unsafe car. It didn’t catch fire spontaneously, when parked. It didn’t catch fire when it was being fueled up. It didn’t drive itself into other cars – or people. And if you managed to back one up into a pond, the doors could be opened manually. Also the (usually) manual, crank-down windows."

--Eric Peters

In case no one else mentioned it, the billionairess's Telsa, as all Teslas, rely on electricity and computers to open the doors even from the inside. When the batteries got wet, they stopped working and she couldn't get out. Supposedly, rescue arrived in time to save her but even they couldn't get the doors open.

Can anyone confirm this is true or not?

Remind me to never purchase a Tesla.
665   Onvacation   2024 Mar 16, 6:59am  

Misc says

So....uhhhh.....EVs are so good that the car manufacturers are making them sound and feel like real cars ????

It's like vegans eating fake bacon.
666   WookieMan   2024 Mar 16, 9:26am  

Onvacation says

Misc says


So....uhhhh.....EVs are so good that the car manufacturers are making them sound and feel like real cars ????

It's like vegans eating fake bacon.

Let's not get started on that shit. That needs its own thread. Fucking impossible burger or whatever it is.... I eat cows. I eat pigs. Chicken. Turkey. I'm not eating processed fake meat. If I want veggies I'll get them from my garden or a decent grocery store. You're a fag if you eat that fake shit.
667   GNL   2024 Mar 23, 7:11pm  

What happened to @Eman? Here's a pretty good article https://www.theburningplatform.com/2024/03/23/the-hertz-meltdown-reveals-scale-of-the-ev-debacle/

I wonder if Tesla stock will take a hit.
668   WookieMan   2024 Mar 24, 6:00am  

GNL says

What happened to Eman? Here's a pretty good article https://www.theburningplatform.com/2024/03/23/the-hertz-meltdown-reveals-scale-of-the-ev-debacle/

I wonder if Tesla stock will take a hit.

I think he bailed on the site. Too negative… lol. Pointing out fact is just reality when entering a discussion. There’s going to be disagreements. He’s in RE. One of the most contentious industries. Too many hands in the cookie jar. They will be arguments and yelling. I’ve dealt with plenty.

It’s why I question what he has posted being true. Anyone can copy and paste from another forum none of us read. He started getting defensive and left I believe. That speaks volumes.

I’ve made an ass of myself here but I’ll never run. For good or bad. If I stop posting for more that a month I’m dead.
669   komputodo   2024 Mar 24, 10:40am  

WookieMan says

I wonder if Tesla stock will take a hit.

who knows? when good news is bad and bad is good, nobody can predict what will happen.
670   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 24, 11:38am  

WookieMan says

It’s why I question what he has posted being true. Anyone can copy and paste from another forum none of us read. He started getting defensive and left I believe. That speaks volumes.


On the Ukraine thread, he stated that he backed socal2s bs. Then I provided some choice samples of socal2's posts and pointed out to Eman this is what he was 'backing' whether he was aware of that or not. Then I asked him if he wanted to back out

Disappeared.
672   RWSGFY   2024 Apr 1, 9:20am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says







These are jornos playing with their employer's money, right? Because I can't imagine a normal person shelling out their hard-earned $70K for some midsize SUV from an unknown, unproven manufacturer....

2 yr lease - maybe, but buying it outright - no way, Jose.
673   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Apr 2, 1:42pm  

RWSGFY says

These are jornos playing with their employer's money, right? Because I can't imagine a normal person shelling out their hard-earned $70K for some midsize SUV from an unknown, unproven manufacturer....

2 yr lease - maybe, but buying it outright - no way, Jose.


Oh contraire. They do.
675   socal2   2024 Apr 2, 6:06pm  

Great day to by MOAR TSLA because "smart people" in Wall Street don't seem to understand macro in Q1.

- Eco-terrorist attack on Berlin factory shutting down production for over 2 weeks
- Houthi attacks on shipping causing thousands of cars to be stuck on ships from China going around Africa to reach Europe
- Fremont factory re-tooling for the new Model 3 Highland launch

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