patrick.net

Minimum wage was $1.60 an hour back in 1970. Cars were affordable relative to minimum wage. You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick. City/Highway mileage was 17/22 only :-/

I like how Chevy Bolt similarly markets to the working class who may make $15 an hour.

ad says

You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick.

True, but there were no 5 year loans back then. Then, as now, minimum wage earners made due with used cars. Today's used cars are a far better deal than used cars in the 1960s. A 5 year old car today likely has no issues and lots of life left, while a 5 year old car in 1969 likely was starting to burn oil, had broken door knobs, saggy seats, leaky heater core, rusted radiator, lots of rattles, brake issues, and rust. If one had a 5 year old car, it was likely you needed the services of AAMCO or the many other transmission specialists that used to exist in every town. 1970s cars were even worse.

Auto execs are coming clean: EVs aren't working

https://www.businessinsider.com/auto-executives-coming-clean-evs-arent-working-2023-10?amp=

ad says

.

Look at the "entry level" electric vehicle, the Chevy Bolt with MSRP of around $26,500 and a range of about 260 miles.

Its been reported owners are easily getting 300 miles range.

Chevy needs a marketing campaign to show life cycle or total ownership costs for at least 10 years. Chevy guarantees the batteries for 100,000 miles. So figure based on 15,000 miles per year that is 6.7 years.

.

They killed it. Bolt is no more.

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

UkraineIsFucked says

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

Was always a flaw in the model for EV. When you give people tax advantages to buy new, the used is going to be worthless. I've said it before, we've had electric golf carts forever. Even lead acid batteries you're looking at $800 for a 48v setup.... for a golf cart. If you go lithium, you're looking at $2,500 for a quality battery battery replacement.

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery. You'd be stupid to buy them used and if you did the price would need to be massively lower than an ICE car because you're needing to replace something 3-4x's an ICE engine at some point.

WookieMan says

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.

Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.

Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?

You can put whatever electric source you want in them. I was just pointing out that a 800lbs vehicle/cart is gonna run you $2,500. That's a battery that gets you maybe 30 miles. Add weight and distance and I think you get the idea and why I've been saying Tesla is just a glorified golf cart. It is. Just a bigger battery at a massive cost that's currently subsidized by the public.

It's a big argument in the golf cart community (lol) about ICE or electric. For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me. Back to carts, the gas ones are fucking annoying and loud and have a ton of lag pressing the peddle if you golf. I hate them. Golfing I hate the ass hole that starts going in the middle of my swing. Fucking d-bag.

WookieMan says

For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me.

Yes - Tesla's are fantastic for roughly 90% of US drivers who aren't constantly taking long road trips.

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.

socal2 says

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.

I rented a Jaguar out in Washington about 3 years ago. I didn't touch the steering wheel 90% of the time. Just perpendicular turns. The tech has been out and in other models for a while now.

That said, having a perfect driving record, I don't see the point. I don't trust the electronics. No different than the Boeing 737 MCAS system. I don't fly myself, but I personally would want to hand fly as much as possible. Same with driving. I also admittedly have drinks and drive, again perfect driving record at 40. The electronics fail on me slightly buzzed I'm fucked. Note I've never put anyone in danger before the anti drinking crowd comes in. I just stayed at my buddies house Saturday because we drank. You don't keep that record without discipline.

I know you like your EV/Tesla, but I just don't see the point. At least as someone with kids I need to transport. Tesla and other car makers have not come out with an EV model with a 3rd row, towing weights that aren't gay, and don't likely cost $100k when they do. I'll take a lightly use Armada or Sequoia for $35-50k all day. We don't drive baby cars in my family is what we say. That's not a knock, it's literally what we say. No Tesla model could handle our family needs. Also when you can sell $625/hr 365, 24/7, that 20-30 minutes at the electric "pump" matters. You lose $200-400 per "fill up", when it costs me $80 in 3 minutes. Time is money.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-67893216

True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO

UkraineIsFucked says

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-67893216

Retard has no boundaries

UkraineIsFucked says

True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO

I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

socal2 says

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?

Factoring in the cost of the car I'd lose money switching to EV. This is indisputable. It would take 3-5 years with an EV to beat a similar model ICE. Sure they're not as fun to drive, but it's a waste of money. More coal burnt. There's nothing green about it. Just admit it's a fun car to drive and is more expensive. Because that's what it is. Trust me I like Mercedes and BMW, but I'm not getting it as a daily driver. A Tesla is lost capital. AKA money could be better spent.

WookieMan says

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?

I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon. My wife's Hyundai gets maybe 26 mpg. That works out to about $210 month in gas.

The same amount of miles in my Tesla costs $40 in electricity when I charge at home at night.

Great video of Tesla's Full Self Driving.

No one else has anything close to this.

https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1745151497103683625

socal2 says

I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

You're not paying full freight, as those costs prove.

You just say you are because to admit otherwise is to face the bullshit you don't want to.

Explains a lot.

ad says

Minimum wage was $1.60 an hour back in 1970. Cars were affordable relative to minimum wage. You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick. City/Highway mileage was 17/22 only :-/

It's unfortunate we can't get a truly cheap car these days, but even paying up front for all those modern long-term cost savings features like 50k mile tires, no-tuneup fuel injection, and 10k oil changes, a modern car will simply run (cost) circles around one from that era simply based on longevity.

5 year loan for a $2000 car with 20% down. Assuming 5% interest (extremely generous for a car loan in 1970), means you pay $30/month or 18.75 hours of work per month. But that car is unlikely to make it 5 years without major repairs.

How about today with California's minimum wage? For 18.75 hours per month, that's $16 * 18.75 = $300/month. Precisely 10x the 1970 spend. Yeah, you aren't likely to buy any brand new car for $20k, but if you extend to 7 year loan that'll get you to nearly of $27k.

So when you paid off your loan you have a 5 year old Maverick that is nearing (or passed) end-of-life or a 7 year old Toyota Corolla that'll give you less trouble in the next 7 years than the Maverick did in the first 5.

I think you should try to test drive some of those cars from the 60s and 70s. I had a friend who recently paid quite a bit of money for a well-restored Mustang V8 from that era (sadly, an automatic). He soon realized that, although our current cars are mostly soulless and have entirely too many electronic "features," they are miles easier to live with on a daily basis. He sold it pretty quickly.

socal2 says

I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon.

You're in CA dude. Gas isn't that much in most places. We're under $3 here because it's an election year. It's literally $2.99 and that's at the expensive gas station that is most convenient.

I can't tow with any model of Tesla. Cyber Truck is ugly as can be and has no range. I HAVE to do things. I have to drive long distances. EV's are not there yet. It works for some that are just commuting to work and the grocery store. I have to do not girly things if I'm being honest. EV's are the VW Bug of the 2020's. They're gay. It's literally a golf cart.

Your $200/mo turned into $170 savings from your own comment. Your wife's Hyundai was likely $20k less as well. That $15-20k in financing eats up any savings. And mark this comment. Your cost are going to skyrocket. Do you actually trust liberals that push EV's and this tech???? They're gonna get their money.

zzyzzx says

Eman says

zzyzzx says

ICEs don't catch on fire when they have no gas in them.

EVs catch on fire just sitting in scrap yards.

EVs catch on fire on ships. So bad extra insurance has to be paid when shipping them. ICEs don't have this problem.

Vast majority of ICEs that catch on fire are in accidents.

This is similar to a model 3: https://www.toyota.com/corollahybrid/2023/

MSRP $23k for the Corolla
MSRP $36k for Tesla Model 3

Similar sized. AWD versus rear wheel on the Tesla. 50mpg. Fine you have oil changes once a quarter at $50 and you buy a K&N air filter and it's the same maintenance for the same miles you'd likely keep both cars. Not sure where you're making up the $13k. Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

The math doesn't add up for basically the same car. You don't need to pay $13k extra for faster 0-60 times and 20 minutes to "fuel" up on a road trip or work trip. That's kind of the definition of stupidity. Enjoy them, but the value is simply not there and no one can prove otherwise. I just picked one model. There are many others that beat the cheapest Tesla that would take 5 years at least to make up the difference in Tesla's price difference even with paying for gas. It's not even a debate.

WookieMan says

Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

And I just got a letter from PG&E showing the new rate plans based upon what I paid in electricity last year. $300 more projected for EV charging plan.

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

And I just got a letter from PG&E showing the new rate plans based upon what I paid in electricity last year. $300 more projected for EV charging plan.

It's coming. We don't agree on everything, but the EV owners are likely over the next 2-4 years to eat shit on rates. The infrastructure is not there and will take a decade plus out of their pocket. They don't get it. I literally just posted a Corolla Hybrid VS a Model 3. If you're cool eating $13k cash or financed at high rates, good for you. You're not getting a good deal with an EV. Even with government subs.

Gas is cheaper and EV's are essentially subsidizing ICE vehicles at this point and they think they're doing the environment a favor.. Less demand for oil makes ICE vehicle cheaper. Electric companies AND governments will charge more in the coming years. MFT's are from gas. They're gonna get their piece of the pie. It's a when, not if. I don't get the EV fan boys.

I see electric vehicles as the current distraction to bilk money on something that will not replace gas vehicles until we have something that will. Possibly hydrogen. So in the meantime they want to take peoples money. Same thing as this country. We don't allow people or laws that will actually work or make a difference, only offer people ineffective options that are very weak tools at best.

Toyota is doing an end run around the 'designed to fail Green Electric Vehicle' by investing in production lines of hydrogen vehicles. I gather hydrogen may be a technology that works, to the consternation of the energy heroin dealers.

WookieMan says

Less demand for oil makes ICE vehicle cheaper.

Doomberg has a 'law' on that: Hydrocarbon molecules not consumed by one group of people will only be gladly consumed by another.

Like Russian oil or 'evil fracked' shale oil from Texas banned in California (Cali refineries can't use it anyway).

Ceffer says

Toyota is doing an end run around the 'designed to fail Green Electric Vehicle' by investing in production lines of hydrogen vehicles. I gather hydrogen may be a technology that works, to the consternation of the energy heroin dealers.

https://doomberg.substack.com/p/hydrogen-bomb (that might be behind a paywall)

Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.

The sales of 20,000 EVs began last month and will continue over the course of 2024, the rental giant said Thursday in a regulatory filing. Hertz will record a non-cash charge in its fourth-quarter results of about $245 million related to incremental net depreciation expense.

The dramatic about-face, after Hertz announced plans in 2021 to buy 100,000 Tesla Inc. vehicles, underscores the waning demand for all-electric cars in the US. EV sales growth slowed sharply over the course of 2023, rising just 1.3% in the final quarter as consumers were put off by high costs and interest rates.

“The elevated costs associated with EVs persisted,” Hertz Chief Executive Officer Stephen Scherr said in an interview. “Efforts to wrestle it down proved to be more challenging.”

Hertz plans to use some of the money raised by selling off EVs to buy gas-powered vehicles. “The company expects this action to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs,” it said in the filing.

The shift back to more conventional cars marks a reversal of a strategy centered on EVs, which the company hoped would fetch higher prices at the counter and hold their value.

Tesla’s price cuts raised his company’s depreciation costs, Scherr said. EVs also come with higher repair costs compared to the rest of its cars, which has hurt its bottom line and played a big role in missing third-quarter earnings estimates.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-143449475.html

Higher repair costs? You mean like having to replace an entire $26,000 battery pack if the car gets in an accident that otherwise would be a minor fender bender?

UkraineIsFucked says

Higher repair costs? You mean like having to replace an entire $26,000 battery pack if the car gets in an accident that otherwise would be a minor fender bender?

That rarely happens. At least not with Teslas.

Tesla is still a very new car company (despite the Model Y being the best selling car in the world) and there still aren't enough body shop repair places who have experience working on Teslas, so the repairs can be expensive.

Hertz paid full freight for their Teslas and didn't get any kind of volume or commercial discount. So their timing was terrible since Tesla dropped prices last year to combat the higher interest rates and competition from China leaving Hertz with lesser residual value.

Big rental car companies like Hertz don't keep cars beyond a couple years. So it was expected that some of the higher mileage Teslas would be turned over by now.

This whole story is a nothing burger for Tesla. Tesla still can't build cars fast enough to meet their astronomical demand.

SunnyvaleCA says

I think you should try to test drive some of those cars from the 60s and 70s. I had a friend who recently paid quite a bit of money for a well-restored Mustang V8 from that era (sadly, an automatic). He soon realized that, although our current cars are mostly soulless and have entirely too many electronic "features," they are miles easier to live with on a daily basis. He sold it pretty quickly.

The 2 most popular types of old classic cars are 1. Pure original and for investment only and 2. Restomods. Restomods are badass. This is where an old vehicle is modernized and are a dream to drive. I'm a Restomod guy myself.



Believe me, this car is as much fun to drive as any new corvette AND you'd get more admirers.

socal2 says

That rarely happens. At least not with Teslas.

80% of Hertz' EV fleet they are complaining about the repairs being costly are Teslas.

socal2 says

This whole story is a nothing burger for Tesla. Tesla still can't build cars fast enough to meet their astronomical demand.

And yet Hertz is taking a bath in selling these off.

UkraineIsFucked says

80% of Hertz' EV fleet they are complaining about the repairs being costly are Teslas.

But it has nothing to do with the battery as you were alluding to.UkraineIsFucked says

And yet Hertz is taking a bath in selling these off.

Yeah - because Tesla is pumping out their brand new and improved Model 3 Highland versions and the Model Y's are still stupid cheap with the government incentives.

Who wants to buy a beat-up rental Model 3 when you can get a brand new Tesla for a few thousand more?

socal2 says

But it has nothing to do with the battery as you were alluding to.

How do you know?

socal2 says

Who wants to buy a beat-up rental Model 3 when you can get a brand new Tesla for a few thousand more?

Used prices are a lot cheaper now.

Doesn't change the fact that EVs are shit.

UkraineIsFucked says

Doesn't change the fact that EVs are shit.

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?