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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   52,328 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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73   PeopleUnited   2023 Oct 20, 11:50am  

HeadSet says

richwicks says


In 20 years, we'll just see this as a minor mania because the world won't be burning down (again) from climate change.

The goal is to make cars too expensive for anyone except the rich and politically connected. In 20 years, owning a car will be like owning a private jet today.

I’m not sure we have 20 years to wait.
The stuff going on in Israel and Russia right now is an indication that Bible prophecy is likely soon to be fulfilled. Remember, prophecy is not a prediction, it is a promise.

https://patrick.net/post/1378973/2023-04-02-the-rapture-thread?start=54
74   HeadSet   2023 Oct 20, 2:15pm  

PeopleUnited says

The stuff going on in Israel and Russia right now is an indication that Bible prophecy is likely soon to be fulfilled. Remember, prophecy is not a prediction, it is a promise.

In the year 1000 AD and at many other times. people thought current events indicated the Bible prophesy coming to pass. Everyone thinks the end of the world will occur during their lifetimes.
75   SunnyvaleCA   2023 Oct 20, 3:32pm  

zzyzzx says

I think that it's only a matter of time before homeowner insurance companies drop or rate jack EV owners over all the EV's spontaneously combusting and taking the house with it.

Here in California (and I suspect every other state), the state government heavily "manages" the so-called "private" insurance market. CA government is heavily invested in pushing EVs on everyone. So, they will mandate insurance companies offer low rates to EV vehicles even if it means they jack up rates on ICE vehicles. Dropping EVs won't be an allowed option, but we are seeing companies leave the state altogether (mostly for homeowner insurance because of forrest fires). As insurance companies leave the state, the government will rejoice, because it will give an excuse to take over the industry entirely—socialism for all!
76   PeopleUnited   2023 Oct 20, 4:10pm  

HeadSet says

PeopleUnited says


The stuff going on in Israel and Russia right now is an indication that Bible prophecy is likely soon to be fulfilled. Remember, prophecy is not a prediction, it is a promise.

In the year 1000 AD and at many other times. people thought current events indicated the Bible prophesy coming to pass. Everyone thinks the end of the world will occur during their lifetimes.

Except you and 8.1 billion other humans?
77   Booger   2023 Oct 20, 4:10pm  

SunnyvaleCA says

Dropping EVs won't be an allowed option


They will drop your homeowners insurance over the EV fire risk, or leave the state.

That or some newer batteries will be produced that don't catch on fire so much.
78   PeopleUnited   2023 Oct 20, 4:15pm  

By the way the rapture is not the end of the world, it is the beginning of the closest thing to hell on earth. Imagine every single horror and disaster movie happening at the same time nonstop for 7 years. It will be worse than that! And then Jesus will return and set up his millennial kingdom in which he will rule on earth for a thousand years. After 1000 years Satan will be loosed for one last time and then the end will come.

So we are at least 1007 years before the end of the world. But when the rapture comes hell on earth begins, so best not be left behind!

Jesus and only Jesus can save and keep you from the great tribulation soon to be unleashed on the world by Satan and his minions.
79   stereotomy   2023 Oct 20, 4:39pm  

I'm ready for hell. In fact, if Jesus comes toward me I'll thank Him,"Thank you Lord, for allowing me to drop my firearm. I am tired dispensing righteous wrath to the agents of Satan. Am I still not worthy to be enraptured?"

Christ would gently say "Ever since Michael flew off after the last kerfluffle with Lucifer back in the day, we've had to improvise somewhat. Tell you what, you just keep doing Our work for us, and we'll put a good word in when it's you're time at the Pearly Gates,"

I would say "Thanks Lord, if that is your will."

Christ would look askance at me and ask "And . . . "

I would then hopefully remember to say "You are my lord and personal savior. Whoever believes in you will sit with you at the right hand of the Father."

Every club has its code words.
80   PeopleUnited   2023 Oct 20, 8:05pm  

Every fool has a cute story bro. And when you stand before God, let me know what He thinks.

Perhaps He will gently say, if you really believed me, why did you mock my sacrifice for your disobedience (sin) and make me pay for it on the cross? Why did you also mock my children who believe in me? For if you had repented I would know you, but I tell you the truth I never knew thee, depart from me ye that work iniquity.
81   AD   2023 Oct 20, 8:11pm  

.

Look at the "entry level" electric vehicle, the Chevy Bolt with MSRP of around $26,500 and a range of about 260 miles.

Its been reported owners are easily getting 300 miles range.

Chevy needs a marketing campaign to show life cycle or total ownership costs for at least 10 years. Chevy guarantees the batteries for 100,000 miles. So figure based on 15,000 miles per year that is 6.7 years.

.
82   HeadSet   2023 Oct 20, 9:03pm  

ad says

.

Look at the "entry level" electric vehicle, the Chevy Bolt with MSRP of around $26,500 and a range of about 260 miles.

Its been reported owners are easily getting 300 miles range.

Chevy needs a marketing campaign to show life cycle or total ownership costs for at least 10 years. Chevy guarantees the batteries for 100,000 miles. So figure based on 15,000 miles per year that is 6.7 years.

.

I had a Bolt EV on loan from Chevy for a week, as they were trying to sell the cab company I worked for a fleet of them. The car got about 230 miles in range on a full charge. I loved that car. The only issue is that Chevy limited the charge speed so from empty to full would take 2 hours on a Level 3 charger. I presume they did this to save the battery, as repeated fast charges, even on a Tesla, shorten battery life. Tesla owners are richer so are likely to have a Level 2 charger at home and use the Level 3 chargers only on road trips. The Bolt was aimed at a lower economic market that would include apartment dwellers who with no home charger would thus regularly use the Level 3 chargers. Therefore, Chevy limited the charge speed to preserve battery life. Unfortunately, nobody wants to wait 3 hours to charge a car while on a road trip. For those who stayed in town and lived in a house with a level 2 charger or even a accessible dryer plug, one could easily charge overnight. If one just used the Bolt as a commuter car and lived 10 miles from work, one could use plain old household 110v current to top off the car each night. At 110v, the Bolt recharged at about 4 miles per hour.
83   AD   2023 Oct 20, 9:38pm  

HeadSet says

I presume they did this to save the battery, as repeated fast charges, even on a Tesla, shorten battery life.


Yep.
.



.
84   AD   2023 Oct 20, 9:47pm  

Minimum wage was $1.60 an hour back in 1970. Cars were affordable relative to minimum wage. You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick. City/Highway mileage was 17/22 only :-/

I like how Chevy Bolt similarly markets to the working class who may make $15 an hour.


85   HeadSet   2023 Oct 21, 6:57am  

ad says

You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick.

True, but there were no 5 year loans back then. Then, as now, minimum wage earners made due with used cars. Today's used cars are a far better deal than used cars in the 1960s. A 5 year old car today likely has no issues and lots of life left, while a 5 year old car in 1969 likely was starting to burn oil, had broken door knobs, saggy seats, leaky heater core, rusted radiator, lots of rattles, brake issues, and rust. If one had a 5 year old car, it was likely you needed the services of AAMCO or the many other transmission specialists that used to exist in every town. 1970s cars were even worse.
87   Eric Holder   2023 Oct 26, 5:36pm  

ad says


.

Look at the "entry level" electric vehicle, the Chevy Bolt with MSRP of around $26,500 and a range of about 260 miles.

Its been reported owners are easily getting 300 miles range.

Chevy needs a marketing campaign to show life cycle or total ownership costs for at least 10 years. Chevy guarantees the batteries for 100,000 miles. So figure based on 15,000 miles per year that is 6.7 years.

.


They killed it. Bolt is no more.
89   WookieMan   2024 Jan 5, 8:58am  

UkraineIsFucked says

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

Was always a flaw in the model for EV. When you give people tax advantages to buy new, the used is going to be worthless. I've said it before, we've had electric golf carts forever. Even lead acid batteries you're looking at $800 for a 48v setup.... for a golf cart. If you go lithium, you're looking at $2,500 for a quality battery battery replacement.

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery. You'd be stupid to buy them used and if you did the price would need to be massively lower than an ICE car because you're needing to replace something 3-4x's an ICE engine at some point.
90   zzyzzx   2024 Jan 5, 9:52am  

WookieMan says

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.


Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?
91   WookieMan   2024 Jan 5, 10:50am  

zzyzzx says


WookieMan says


That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.


Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?


You can put whatever electric source you want in them. I was just pointing out that a 800lbs vehicle/cart is gonna run you $2,500. That's a battery that gets you maybe 30 miles. Add weight and distance and I think you get the idea and why I've been saying Tesla is just a glorified golf cart. It is. Just a bigger battery at a massive cost that's currently subsidized by the public.

It's a big argument in the golf cart community (lol) about ICE or electric. For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me. Back to carts, the gas ones are fucking annoying and loud and have a ton of lag pressing the peddle if you golf. I hate them. Golfing I hate the ass hole that starts going in the middle of my swing. Fucking d-bag.
92   socal2   2024 Jan 5, 11:35am  

WookieMan says

For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me.


Yes - Tesla's are fantastic for roughly 90% of US drivers who aren't constantly taking long road trips.

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.
97   WookieMan   2024 Jan 8, 10:52am  

socal2 says

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.

I rented a Jaguar out in Washington about 3 years ago. I didn't touch the steering wheel 90% of the time. Just perpendicular turns. The tech has been out and in other models for a while now.

That said, having a perfect driving record, I don't see the point. I don't trust the electronics. No different than the Boeing 737 MCAS system. I don't fly myself, but I personally would want to hand fly as much as possible. Same with driving. I also admittedly have drinks and drive, again perfect driving record at 40. The electronics fail on me slightly buzzed I'm fucked. Note I've never put anyone in danger before the anti drinking crowd comes in. I just stayed at my buddies house Saturday because we drank. You don't keep that record without discipline.

I know you like your EV/Tesla, but I just don't see the point. At least as someone with kids I need to transport. Tesla and other car makers have not come out with an EV model with a 3rd row, towing weights that aren't gay, and don't likely cost $100k when they do. I'll take a lightly use Armada or Sequoia for $35-50k all day. We don't drive baby cars in my family is what we say. That's not a knock, it's literally what we say. No Tesla model could handle our family needs. Also when you can sell $625/hr 365, 24/7, that 20-30 minutes at the electric "pump" matters. You lose $200-400 per "fill up", when it costs me $80 in 3 minutes. Time is money.
99   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 10, 1:15pm  




True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO
101   socal2   2024 Jan 10, 5:43pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO


I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.
102   WookieMan   2024 Jan 10, 7:17pm  

socal2 says

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?

Factoring in the cost of the car I'd lose money switching to EV. This is indisputable. It would take 3-5 years with an EV to beat a similar model ICE. Sure they're not as fun to drive, but it's a waste of money. More coal burnt. There's nothing green about it. Just admit it's a fun car to drive and is more expensive. Because that's what it is. Trust me I like Mercedes and BMW, but I'm not getting it as a daily driver. A Tesla is lost capital. AKA money could be better spent.
103   socal2   2024 Jan 10, 7:34pm  

WookieMan says

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?


I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon. My wife's Hyundai gets maybe 26 mpg. That works out to about $210 month in gas.

The same amount of miles in my Tesla costs $40 in electricity when I charge at home at night.
104   socal2   2024 Jan 10, 7:51pm  

Great video of Tesla's Full Self Driving.

No one else has anything close to this.

https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1745151497103683625
105   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 10, 8:04pm  

socal2 says

I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.


You're not paying full freight, as those costs prove.

You just say you are because to admit otherwise is to face the bullshit you don't want to.

Explains a lot.
106   SunnyvaleCA   2024 Jan 11, 3:34am  

ad says

Minimum wage was $1.60 an hour back in 1970. Cars were affordable relative to minimum wage. You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick. City/Highway mileage was 17/22 only :-/

It's unfortunate we can't get a truly cheap car these days, but even paying up front for all those modern long-term cost savings features like 50k mile tires, no-tuneup fuel injection, and 10k oil changes, a modern car will simply run (cost) circles around one from that era simply based on longevity.

5 year loan for a $2000 car with 20% down. Assuming 5% interest (extremely generous for a car loan in 1970), means you pay $30/month or 18.75 hours of work per month. But that car is unlikely to make it 5 years without major repairs.

How about today with California's minimum wage? For 18.75 hours per month, that's $16 * 18.75 = $300/month. Precisely 10x the 1970 spend. Yeah, you aren't likely to buy any brand new car for $20k, but if you extend to 7 year loan that'll get you to nearly of $27k.

So when you paid off your loan you have a 5 year old Maverick that is nearing (or passed) end-of-life or a 7 year old Toyota Corolla that'll give you less trouble in the next 7 years than the Maverick did in the first 5.

I think you should try to test drive some of those cars from the 60s and 70s. I had a friend who recently paid quite a bit of money for a well-restored Mustang V8 from that era (sadly, an automatic). He soon realized that, although our current cars are mostly soulless and have entirely too many electronic "features," they are miles easier to live with on a daily basis. He sold it pretty quickly.
107   WookieMan   2024 Jan 11, 4:21am  

socal2 says

I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon.

You're in CA dude. Gas isn't that much in most places. We're under $3 here because it's an election year. It's literally $2.99 and that's at the expensive gas station that is most convenient.

I can't tow with any model of Tesla. Cyber Truck is ugly as can be and has no range. I HAVE to do things. I have to drive long distances. EV's are not there yet. It works for some that are just commuting to work and the grocery store. I have to do not girly things if I'm being honest. EV's are the VW Bug of the 2020's. They're gay. It's literally a golf cart.

Your $200/mo turned into $170 savings from your own comment. Your wife's Hyundai was likely $20k less as well. That $15-20k in financing eats up any savings. And mark this comment. Your cost are going to skyrocket. Do you actually trust liberals that push EV's and this tech???? They're gonna get their money.
110   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 11, 12:12pm  

Eman says


zzyzzx says











ICEs don't catch on fire when they have no gas in them.

EVs catch on fire just sitting in scrap yards.

EVs catch on fire on ships. So bad extra insurance has to be paid when shipping them. ICEs don't have this problem.

Vast majority of ICEs that catch on fire are in accidents.
111   WookieMan   2024 Jan 11, 12:14pm  

This is similar to a model 3: https://www.toyota.com/corollahybrid/2023/

MSRP $23k for the Corolla
MSRP $36k for Tesla Model 3

Similar sized. AWD versus rear wheel on the Tesla. 50mpg. Fine you have oil changes once a quarter at $50 and you buy a K&N air filter and it's the same maintenance for the same miles you'd likely keep both cars. Not sure where you're making up the $13k. Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

The math doesn't add up for basically the same car. You don't need to pay $13k extra for faster 0-60 times and 20 minutes to "fuel" up on a road trip or work trip. That's kind of the definition of stupidity. Enjoy them, but the value is simply not there and no one can prove otherwise. I just picked one model. There are many others that beat the cheapest Tesla that would take 5 years at least to make up the difference in Tesla's price difference even with paying for gas. It's not even a debate.
112   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 11, 1:39pm  

WookieMan says

Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.


And I just got a letter from PG&E showing the new rate plans based upon what I paid in electricity last year. $300 more projected for EV charging plan.

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