patrick.net

BayArea says

My gun isn’t going to jump out of my holster, chase a modem down, and kill them.

Do you take your fully loaded rocket launcher on leisurely strolls? No. One would assume you're aware you're carrying an explosive ordinance on your back and you should be behaving accordingly.

mell says

pitbulls were bred and trained to be aggressive and kill.

So I barely know anyone who owns this general breed, and the one person I do, just happens to have a dog that disproves every one of your assertions? Is that really the most likely explanation?

The most aggressive dog I've ever owned is a chihuahua mix. My Husky/Golden Retriever we had when I was a kid, such a sweetheart.

DhammaStep says

BayArea says

That’s completely wrong.

I’m pro-gun and against Pitt Bulls. I don’t want Pitt Bull owners to be defenseless.

I just don’t want them owning live defense with a brain of it’s own that’s been bred to kill and has awful statistics in our society.

Please, be my guest. Continue to give up rights to a government that hates you. Keep living in fear of potential hypothetical outcomes instead of the very real fact that you're ruled by psychopaths. History? Basically 100% of the time since the start of government, they've turned against their own citizens violently. They always start with taking animals and weapons away, too. Just look at when the CCP rose, they made sure to kill farmers' dogs under the similar guise of "pandemic fighting."

You want to ban a breed of dog because an idiot owner didn't know what he was doing? You're literally consumed wi...

The owner needs to be able to have their pitbull leashed and on control at all times, off leash only at their own property if it can't escape and designated dog parks. They also need to keep the distance from passer bys in public. A lunging dog getting into the virtual cage a human can describe with their arms is not different than an attack by a human and can be met with deadly force. With increased lethality comes increased responsibility. If you have ever experienced the force a lunging pit bull or similar dog exerts on the leash and their owner you would only give the leash in public to physically strong and fit males, or very strong and fit females as an exception. In your own property you can do whatever you want, but don't subject others to that force of nature unless they ask for it

rocketjoe79 says

BayArea says

When and where were these dogs breed to kill?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting#Breed_origins

Nope. This describes breeding strong animals, nothing in the article says that means they must kill and be aggressive. I own two guns, which I keep loaded at all times, not in a safe. I guess I'm dangerous then, and am about to shoot the next person who walks in my house right? By your logic, body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

Once I visited one of the oldest schools in Columbia CA with wife and young kids. Could not find any visitors around on the way up hill to the school on that day. Just before entering the door, there was a bulldog appeared from nowhere. We turned around and froze almost for a minute while it was barking and ready to attack us. I did not want to have full eye contact and slightly looking around and found a man 100ft away east side of the school behind the car partially watching us. I gradually pulled high zoom SLR to take a video. He called and let him in and drove away immediately. That was a terrible experience. I never like anyone who owns a dog and keep off leash particularly bull dogs.
By the way, there are so many great places around Sonora ca so beautiful, you would definitely love visiting.

NuttBoxer says

rocketjoe79 says

BayArea says

When and where were these dogs breed to kill?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting#Breed_origins

Nope. This describes breeding strong animals, nothing in the article says that means they must kill and be aggressive. I own two guns, which I keep loaded at all times, not in a safe. I guess I'm dangerous then, and am about to shoot the next person who walks in my house right? By your logic, body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

That's different as most animals, esp. dogs, are instinctive creatures, whereas humans are mainly driven by their brains. Sure there are bad hombres too amd that's why violent offenders (onto non violent victims) should he locked up to protect society

RWSGFY says

And why most of home insurance companies deny coverage if pitbull is living in the house? They must be delusional and don't want people's dollars...

Not a common concern in Arizona or Texas. But yes in California. In fact, it's rare to see an Arizona rental that doesn't allow dogs. But I guess they're just backwards hicks, and California is full of enlightened, normal people...

NuttBoxer says

RWSGFY says

And why most of home insurance companies deny coverage if pitbull is living in the house? They must be delusional and don't want people's dollars...

Not a common concern in Arizona or Texas. But yes in California. In fact, it's rare to see an Arizona rental that doesn't allow dogs. But I guess they're just backwards hicks, and California is full of enlightened, normal people...

If you want to own dogs you can always purchase your own property, ideally with a large lot of land cause they love to roam free. Fence it in securely and you can raise a whole dog academy. Or find a landlord who allows dogs. A lot of that is driven by supply and demand, I'd expect areas without supply to be more lenient in general towards any kind of pets.

mell says

With increased lethality comes increased responsibility. If you have ever experienced the force a lunging pit bull or similar dog exerts on the leash and their owner you would only give the leash in public to physically strong and fit males,

Absolutely. I did some dog walking for a pair of pitbulls right out of high school. Even with a few years of weight training by then, it was an entirely different beast than just simply "holding a leash." There's so many neglected connective muscles that get used throughout your body just trying to hold a dog like that back. It becomes imperative to not only be physically strong but mentally aware of things that might cause aggression from the animal. Anticipating based on your surroundings prevents a lot of need to physically strain.

Which is my point. Guns are not toys and pitbulls are not pets. I see teenaged girls walking their tiny dogs while surfing social media in the other hand. That's simply something you cannot do with a large and strong potentially aggressive dog. The world is a varied and dangerous place, we should be act accordingly instead of trying to ban reality.

BayArea says

My gun isn’t going to jump out of my holster, chase a child down, and kill them.

Neither is your dog unless you train them to. That could be intentional, or because you don't know how to train them at all, and allow them to run your house. Hmm, just like someone who buys a gun, never learns gun safety, never teaches their kids about guns, then an accident leaves someone dead or injured.

mell says

That's different as mist animals, esp. dogs, are instinctive creatures, whereas humans are mainly driven by their brains. Sure there are bad hombres too amd that's why violent offenders (onto non violent victims) should he locked up to protect society

Absolutely. My Husky used to kill squirrels and lay them on our doorstep. Dogs have instincts to hunt, but for food. They bark to protect territory, and they absolutely will kill to protect themselves or their pack. But killing just to kill accomplishes none of their natural goals. It's only in human created situations, where people are irresponsible that these types of events take place.

DhammaStep says

There's so many neglected connective muscles that get used throughout your body just trying to hold a dog like that back.

If you're pulling back on your dog, you don't know how to control them, and shouldn't be walking them around anyone else until you do.

NuttBoxer says

DhammaStep says

There's so many neglected connective muscles that get used throughout your body just trying to hold a dog like that back.

If you're pulling back on your dog, you don't know how to control them, and shouldn't be walking them around anyone else until you do.

I successfully walked those two pitbulls in New York City for four years without a single incident. I don't really care what you call "ensuring everyone stays with me around traffic, people, small animals, birds, other dogs etc." I call it "holding them back."

Is it ok to have people own lions and alligators in urban high density areas? … because freedom

I live in a rural area, and walk my dogs past a lot of large property's. Almost everyone out here has some form of big dog. There's one pit bull we see often enough, that when he gets aggressive, I correct him verbally. I'm fine with dogs barking if they don't know us, but after a while, enough is enough. I look the dog in the eye, and just make a quick sound or tell him to stop, and he does.

There is one family that has a few dogs, two of them large. One is a German Shepard, the other some kind of big brown dog. They have had them out without leash a few times while I was walking my dogs(old chihuahua's). The brown dog came right up to us, super friendly, I instantly knew I had nothing to worry about. Owner quickly called him back. That dog I don't think I've ever heard bark. The German Shepard though always goes crazy every time we go by. I just stare him down to let him know I'm not intimidated. One day he was out as the lady was bringing in groceries. He starts his barking and runs towards us. I pulled my dogs behind me, kind of flexed/made myself seem big, and he stopped short and backed off. Lady called him back, and he went to her right away.

Another time neighbor's pit bull(not the one I mentioned), was out, and kept wanting to get close to my male dog. I hadn't seen this dog before, so wasn't sure, but I just pushed him back, and kept putting myself in between. Eventually owner called him back. Dog seemed mostly curious, but didn't want to let him close and take chances. My dog even snapped at him at one point when he was getting close. He's old, but he will defend himself.

Point being, people who know how to master their dogs don't have problems with their dogs mauling people. And people who know dogs don't have problems protecting themselves. You all with the issues don't know dogs, and definitely should never have one until you learn more.

You pull up on a leash, never back. Create tension in the opposite direction you want your dog to go. Leash should be around the neck. And dog should walk beside, or slightly behind you, never in front. And you definitely need to walk or exercise your dog. Don't let them build up nervous energy. It's not that hard, but it does take lots of time and repetition. Don't own a dog if you aren't willing to put the work in.

BayArea says

Is it ok to have people own lions and alligators in urban high density areas? … because you know, freedom n shit

Why are you letting your lion around 10 year olds? Why did you think it was a good idea to take your alligator to the community pool?

I'm thinking you've never had one. I have and fully understand the responsibility one is taking when they get one. Most people that have problems with them should have never gotten one.
If you want a good guard dog they are the way to go. They instinctively know danger from casual behavior and rise to the occasion.
On the other hand keep them away from anything on four legs. I was surprised that mine left a wounded cowling crow completely alone and acted like he couldn't even see it. Then I realized, it was walking on two legs.

NuttBoxer says

rocketjoe79 says

BayArea says

When and where were these dogs breed to kill?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting#Breed_origins

Nope. This describes breeding strong animals, nothing in the article says that means they must kill and be aggressive. I own two guns, which I keep loaded at all times, not in a safe. I guess I'm dangerous then, and am about to shoot the next person who walks in my house right? By your logic, body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

Now your just makin up BS. A dog has a mind of it's own. Not only that but, do you reject the fact that breeds are created for certain purposes? How many stories have been told that "the dog was always loving and friendly. I have no idea why it snapped". There was a story of a family that had 2 Pits for over 5 years. One day they both attacked her young children. She did everything she could but to no avail, the dogs killed both of her children right in front of her. What should happen to that woman?

mell says

That's different as most animals, esp. dogs, are instinctive creatures, whereas humans are mainly driven by their brains.

You still believe that human beings are chiefly driven by their intellect after the last 2 years? I respectfully disagree.

BayArea says

Is it ok to have people own lions and alligators in urban high density areas? … because freedom

Yes, it absolutely is.

They just need to be responsible, legally - meaning legally liable, for anything that those animals do.

I remember when some Presa Canario's killed Mr. Whipple's daughter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diane_Whipple

Good doggie, good,…., aaaaarghhhh!!!!!

I don't think the babe below would be able to control this dog if it went off.

GNL says

NuttBoxer says

rocketjoe79 says

BayArea says

When and where were these dogs breed to kill?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_fighting#Breed_origins

Nope. This describes breeding strong animals, nothing in the article says that means they must kill and be aggressive. I own two guns, which I keep loaded at all times, not in a safe. I guess I'm dangerous then, and am about to shoot the next person who walks in my house right? By your logic, body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

Now your just makin up BS. A dog has a mind of it's own. Not only that but,...

"Well, he's never hurt anyone before".

NuttBoxer says

You pull up on a leash, never back. Create tension in the opposite direction you want your dog to go.

With all my dogs, I'd train them to heel. It's a shitty process, but it's doable. It's quite simple, if my dog got ahead of me, I'd stop and bring the dog back to my side before we'd continue while saying "heel". It could take me literally an hour to walk a mile. Dogs are goddamn patient, all you need to do is be more patient.

A dog should never pull on leash, and if they do, don't just deal with it, give the animal a sharp yank. Does the bastard just want to do whatever he fucking wants to do? Two can play at that game. When I was training a dog that did that, first it's a light yank to let them know I'm annoyed. If they do it again, it gets harder, and harder and harder, until there's a yelp.

Correction needs to ALWAYS be done. Reward is random, punishment isn't. You always punish. You don't have to hurt the animal, but you correct them.

A dog yanking on the leash is showing you disrespect AND the dog is chocking himself. Don't let your dog be an asshole to you. They aren't kids, but they are KIND of like kids, they don't think about you so much.

There are several dog breeds that cause most human Deaths and Serious Injuries. Pit Bulls are ALWAYS on top of the list. The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

DhammaStep says

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

If someone gets their face ripped off, what should happen to you? What has happened to any of these owners whose dogs have done such things?

My daughter and son in law have a 1 year old Cane Corso. The dog knows me. Last time I was there, I picked up my granddaughter and was playing around with her. She was laughing and having a good time. The dog was jumping at me and and biting my arm. He was doing what he was bred to do. Eventually I had to give the dog a hard knee to the chest. That did not deter him. I told my son in law to handle his dog. We will not go over there again unless the dog is crated. NO, they do not mistreat their dogs.

No, I did not make this story up.

DhammaStep says

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

GNL says

DhammaStep says

rocketjoe79 says

The breed is unnecessary and dangerous. They need to go.

The breed of human that believes in giving up rights for just a feeling of safety need to go.

You don't want a virus or to get mauled by a bear or get robbed or any number of bad things? Stay inside. I've had quite enough of other people's phobias being imposed on me these past few years.

If someone gets their face ripped off, what should happen to you? What has happened to any of these owners whose dogs have done such things?

There was a famous case in SFBA about two dogs getting out of an apartment and killing a neighbor. Both owners went to prison for a long time.

PS. The problem with "bully" breeds in the US is that most of these dogs are bred by lowlife ghetto scum and the the most typical path for these dogs into normal folks' homes is through shelters. So basically you don't know how that adorable pitbull puppy was bred, have no idea of the lineage and whether there were some vicious and uncontrollable dogs amongst its ancestors. When dogs are bred by responsible breeders such bad apples are weeded out from the gene pool. When Jamal and Trayvon decide to run a puppy mill go get some dogs for dogfighting - the opposite happens. And no, you can't control any dog, irregardless of its pedigree - it's just hubris and internet bravado talking.

If I was walking down the street and two pitbulls come running down the street at me my reaction would be 100% different if it was two golden retrievers, it would be common sense. I've seen enough issues with pitbulls going agro, my best friend was attached by one he had to smash its head in to get it to let go.

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

Did you press charges?

RC2006 says

If I was walking down the street and two pitbulls come running down the street at me my reaction would be 100% if it was two golden retrievers, it would be common sense. I've seen enough issues with pitbulls going agro, my best friend was attached by one he had to smash its head in to get it to let go.

Golden retrievers don't appear in rap music videos, not being bred in ghettos, never used in illegal dogfighting, etc. So different reaction is completely warranted. The gene pool of pitbulls, Staffordshire terriers, Presa Canario and several other breeds, has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

GNL says

Now your just makin up BS. A dog has a mind of it's own. Not only that but, do you reject the fact that breeds are created for certain purposes? How many stories have been told that "the dog was always loving and friendly. I have no idea why it snapped".

So you've gotta be against rifles then right? I mean they are created for only purpose, defense of country. Having a dog that can defend your property from intruders, just wrong huh? What about my husky from when I was a kid. She was a stray from the woods in Michigan. Could've had some wolf in here. Dangerous right, since huskies definitely know how to hunt. We found her because the bus stop was at the end of our street, and she used to come meet the kids after school every day. Viscous animal...

I personally have never heard a single story like that, and my BIL has been breeding and selling American Bully's for years. Like I mentioned, the sweetest dog we ever owned was big. My chihuahua is the only one that's ever gone after a kid.

GNL says

One day they both attacked her young children. She did everything she could but to no avail, the dogs killed both of her children right in front of her. What should happen to that woman?

What the fuck man!? You don't think enough has happened to here already. Don't you know not to kick someone when they're down?

GNL says

The dog was jumping at me and and biting my arm. He was doing what he was bred to do. Eventually I had to give the dog a hard knee to the chest. That did not deter him. I told my son in law to handle his dog. We will not go over there again unless the dog is crated. NO, they do not mistreat their dogs.

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened. If he's not careful, he will be one of your statistics.

My wife's friend does rescues for a living. They own the biggest fucking dog I've ever seen in my life. The dog has some training, but friend is one of those uneven people who view dogs as humans, not animals. They started noticing the dog getting anxious around the kids and the pool, so they've stopped having him out at parties. My wife has helped out when they're away a few times. Once she was out in the yard with my youngest, and the dog got a little aggressive with the contact, and very lightly put it's mouth on her arm while she was holding our daughter(because the dog was making her nervous). She jumped the fence and got them both out of there. She won't have my youngest around the dog anymore when she helps out, and is pretty careful herself around the dog. I've been with him since then, thrown his rope toy, played tug-of-war with him. But I make sure to maintain a calm demeanor, and never, EVER let the dog initiate contact with me, or get too close if I don't want him too.

People that don't know what they're doing are dangerous, whether it's guns or dogs.

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

When I was two, neighbor had some big dog, and every day when neighbor came home, I used to say hi to him, and would stick my hand right through the fence to pet his dog. Still have both hands today...

Hugh_Mongous says

has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

So any group that's naturally larger is going to be aggressive, violent, and kill? Guessing you stay far away from Nordic countries. Sweden, Denmark, Holland, dangerous places huh? North Korea on the other hand, or China, super safe, look at how small those Asians are!

NuttBoxer says

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened. If he's not careful, he will be one of your statistics.

It was an example of the innateness in that dog breed. He didn't teach the dog to do that, it was bred into the dog. Don't you get that? Also, comparing dogs and guns is pretty inappropriate.

Hugh_Mongous says

rocketjoe79 says

I was knocked down and severely bitten by a German Shepard leaped an 8' chain link fence and chased me to the street when I was a paperboy. Owner is still responsible. They weren't home to "control" their dog.

Did you press charges?

This was a long time ago and I was a kid. So, no.

NuttBoxer says

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened.

Or he tried and failed because the dog is genetically incapable of being trained to the necessary standard. There are retrievers which can't retrieve, shepherds which can't herd, standard poodles dumb as a bag of rocks, guard dogs which can't guard and then there are overly aggressive dogs which can't be trained to be 100% docile in a normal family environment. Getting a dog from a known lineage with ancestors proven to be able to do what they are supposed to do decreases chances to get a "dud", but does't not 100% guarantees it won't be one.

My other question would be: why the fuck one gets such a dog as a family companion? They weren't bred for that in the first place. What's the point of pressing, say, Dogo Argentino into a job of a coach cushion when they were bred for pack hunting of wild boars?

GNL says

It was an example of the innateness in that dog breed. He didn't teach the dog to do that, it was bred into the dog. Don't you get that? Also, comparing dogs and guns is pretty inappropriate.

Of course he didn't teach the dog to do that. Seems like he didn't teach the dog do much of anything. Didn't teach it he's the master of the house. Didn't teach it not to jump. Didn't teach it to respect others space. Just like if I leave a loaded gun around a 10 year old, and don't teach them shit about it, something bad might happen.

Also agree on the dog/gun comparison, it's not fair to the dog.