patrick.net

NuttBoxer says

Great example of someone who should not own a dog. If your son had properly trained and mastered that dog, never would have happened.

Or he tried and failed because the dog is genetically incapable of being trained to the necessary standard. There are retrievers which can't retrieve, shepherds which can't herd, standard poodles dumb as a bag of rocks, guard dogs which can't guard and then there are overly aggressive dogs which can't be trained to be 100% docile in a normal family environment. Getting a dog from a known lineage with ancestors proven to be able to do what they are supposed to do decreases chances to get a "dud", but does't not 100% guarantees it won't be one.

My other question would be: why the fuck one gets such a dog as a family companion? They weren't bred for that in the first place. What's the point of pressing, say, Dogo Argentino into a job of a coach cushion when they were bred for pack hunting of wild boars?

GNL says

It was an example of the innateness in that dog breed. He didn't teach the dog to do that, it was bred into the dog. Don't you get that? Also, comparing dogs and guns is pretty inappropriate.

Of course he didn't teach the dog to do that. Seems like he didn't teach the dog do much of anything. Didn't teach it he's the master of the house. Didn't teach it not to jump. Didn't teach it to respect others space. Just like if I leave a loaded gun around a 10 year old, and don't teach them shit about it, something bad might happen.

Also agree on the dog/gun comparison, it's not fair to the dog.

Eric Holder says

Or he tried and failed because the dog is genetically incapable of being trained to the necessary standard.

So what about all the stories I've told about big dogs who don't exhibit those behaviors? Do I just happen to know every exception to the rule?

All of you who don't understand dogs. If you want to learn more trying watching one of Caesar Milan's shows. Pretty entertaining, and you'll get to see him train these big vicious animals using the same techniques he applies to small breeds. In fact, he specializes in Pit Bulls, and has refuted every point made here resoundingly, because it's what he does for a living, and how he started his career.
That guy isn't a genius or anything, he just really knows dogs, and his experience shows.

So, according to NuttBoxer, owners of dangerous dogs are supposed to...
1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

Am I close to correct?

Btw, I agree that my son inlaw should not own a Cane Corso. Now what?

NuttBoxer says

Hugh_Mongous says

has been severely tainted by irresponsible uncontrolled breeding aimed at participation in dogfighting - it's a fact.

So any group that's naturally larger is going to be aggressive, violent, and kill? Guessing you stay far away from Nordic countries. Sweden, Denmark, Holland, dangerous places huh? North Korea on the other hand, or China, super safe, look at how small those Asians are!

I stay out of black areas.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/pitbull-attacks-for-third-time-neighbors-call-for-dog-to-be-euthanized

The chief overpaid dog catcher insists she did the right thing by not euthanizing, the dog in the first place.

https://slaynews.com/news/family-releases-update-on-georgia-boy-mauled-by-pit-bulls-what-little-bit-justin-has-been-up-today-he-just-wanted-to-say-thank-you-to-everyone/

Family Gives Update on Georgia Boy Mauled by Pit Bulls: ‘He Just Wanted to Say Thank You to Everyone’

GNL says

1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

If you want to own a dog capable of killing someone, absolutely on number one. I don't require anyone else to know that I am personally responsible for my actions and mistakes. For those who do, your problems start there.

I don't believe I ever said anything close to number two. The disagreement here is you believe dogs have been bred to kill, I know they have only been trained to do so, regardless of their genetic capabilities.

The problem here isn't conflicting ideas, it's a knowledge gap. And a very common one from what I see in most dog owners.

NuttBoxer says

body builders are all mass killers, waiting to snap.

Agreed!

NuttBoxer says

GNL says

1. Be expert dog trainers except there's no governing body to decide who can and who can't own these dogs.
2. Not believe that breeds have been bred for different purposes.

If you want to own a dog capable of killing someone, absolutely on number one. I don't require anyone else to know that I am personally responsible for my actions and mistakes. For those who do, your problems start there.

I don't believe I ever said anything close to number two. The disagreement here is you believe dogs have been bred to kill, I know they have only been trained to do so, regardless of their genetic capabilities.

The problem here isn't conflicting ideas, it's a knowledge gap. And a very common one from what I see in most dog owners.

If you're going to compare dogs and guns, then we need dog registration, classes and rules/laws on where you can take them and how old you must be to own one. Seems fair, right?

GNL says

If you're going to compare dogs and guns, then we need dog registration, classes and rules/laws on where you can take them and how old you must be to own one. Seems fair, right?

I think a lot of that is already in place. But again, there's a big difference between something that is made to kill, a gun, and something that must be trained, or neglected to create the same affect, a dog.

The comparison rings true in that owning big dogs, and owning guns requires personal responsibility. The other part that is true, if you see a man with a big dog, or a gun, coming down the street, you assess your risk by the character of the man, not the dog or the gun.

NuttBoxer says

But again, there's a big difference between something that is made to kill, a gun, and something that must be trained, or neglected to create the same affect, a dog.

This is complete bullshit.

That's the kind of response I'd expect from a vaxhead. Goes to show you shouldn't judge them too harshly, as anytime you let emotion rule over logic, you will fall into the same pattern they do.

dangerous weapon

NuttBoxer says

if you see a man with a big dog, or a gun, coming down the street, you assess your risk by the character of the man, not the dog or the gun.

But that means that I would have to be judgmental and possibly racist.

RC2006 says

I stay out of black areas.

That has always been a good policy

https://www.ksat.com/news/local/2023/02/24/watch-live-san-antonio-police-at-scene-of-serious-dog-attack-on-west-side/

SAN ANTONIO – A “horrific scene” unfolded on the West Side Friday afternoon after a brutal dog attack claimed an elderly man’s life and left three other people injured, officials said.

As of Friday night, San Antonio police confirmed one of the dogs’ owners has been arrested.

Christian Alexander Moreno, 31, is facing a felony charge of attack by dangerous dog causes death and a felony charge of injury to an elderly. ...

When San Antonio fire crews arrived at the scene, they saw an 81-year-old man being dragged on the sidewalk by one of the two dogs involved in the attack.

SAFD Chief Charles Hood said the man was “completely bloody” before crews made their way off of the fire truck.

“This is not something normal for us. We usually don’t show up and have to defend patients from animals or ourselves,” Hood said.

The dogs also confronted firefighters, who had to fight them off with pickaxes and pike poles so they could attend to the victims, Hood said.

One of the fire captains was bit in the leg, but is OK. The dogs also attacked a woman, who was critically injured and another person.

First comment in the comment section of that article...

"Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

Imagine a helpless baby screaming in agony and terror as a dog rips the facial flesh off, one piece at a time, and eats it. Then they break the jaw and rip out the baby's tongue. 5-10 minutes for baby to finally die of blood loss. This is why coroners don't like to release their reports on these cases, it's too sickening.

Pit bulls were bred in the 1700s to torture bulls in a fighting ring (pit bull).

In American in 2022, we allow these dogs to torture babies.

Congratulations to everyone."

Patrick says

Christian Alexander Moreno, 31, is facing a felony charge of attack by dangerous dog causes death and a felony charge of injury to an elderly. ...

Glad their charging the person responsible, but why isn't it at least manslaughter? If Christian is in this area, see's a gang-banger walk by, and puts his gun on the ground, the hood picks it up and kills the old man, is it really any different?

GNL says

Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

But let's focus on genetics, because obviously evil is bred, not taught. There are Satan factories where devil worshipers pop out like zits on a 16 year old. I mean that was the case for Dahmer, Bundy, etc right? No abuse in their past when they were children, they were just born evil.

By the way, if you push genetics as the reason for things, you are in the company of the woman who founded Planned Parenthood, and therefore share responsibility for the ideals that have killed more children than any of these abominations to date. You are a hypocrite, and part of the problem.

NuttBoxer says

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

Not wrong. Never had met a pit bull I'd "trust" around children though. Abortion, accidents, some vaccinations, etc are bad. There's no need for the breed of dog in modern times.

To be honest it's a small penis syndrome type thing. Like dudes getting F-350 trucks or something similar. Or a black thing. No logical person owns a dog that can kill people regardless of how well trained and good of an owner they are. It's an animal. Let me know when you want to pet my nice mountain lion and it decapitates you with one swipe. Great pet. That's a pit bull.

NuttBoxer says

GNL says

Pit bulls kill 10 or more babies per year in the USA.

How many you think are murdered by their own mothers in abortion clinics? Killed in car accidents? Died after being injected with spike protein poison? From vaccinations? Die from abuse in the foster system? Have been killed in Ukraine or the Middle East? Die in satanic ritual sacrifices by pedophiles who occupy top positions in our government? In every case it's more than 10 a year. Most WAY more.

But let's focus on genetics, because obviously evil is bred, not taught. There are Satan factories where devil worshipers pop out like zits on a 16 year old. I mean that was the case for Dahmer, Bundy, etc right? No abuse in their past when they were children, they were just born evil.

By the way, if you push genetics as the reason for things, you are in the company of the woman who founded Planne...

Pitbulls were created by man.

It's clear that we're going to disagree until the end of time on this subject and frankly the knowledge gaps makes any actual discussion on the topic impossible. I would rather posit a speculative question to everyone: what do you believe a "pitbull ban" would look like? Do you really believe pitbull owners are going to gladly give up their animals? Or are you going to need the government mafia to show up, breaking your door down with guns because your neighbor said they heard barking?

I don't really need to speculate, we have recent history on this.

In the cities some families kept them as pets, while in the countryside they were popular for guard duty, herding and food. They were routinely put down in communist-held areas during the civil war. Like everything else, the cull came in stages after liberation. In Beijing, a swoop cleared thousands of wild dogs from the streets, often with the support of local residents, as policemen armed with wire nooses on bamboo poles rounded them up. Then, by September 1949, dog owners were required to register their pets and keep the animals indoors. A year later the destruction of registered dogs started. Some of the animals were voluntarily turned in, but a few owners refused to surrender them. In a few cases the police were even confronted by angry dog keepers, who sometimes had the crowd on their side. The police then started breaking into houses. Owners came back home to find their doors broken down and their pets gone

Even though her roommates objected to the animal, Esther Cheo kept a small female dog in her dormitory, which she had taken in as a puppy. She shared all her food with it, and the dog was named Hsiao Mee, after the millet they ate. During the cull one of her colleagues who disliked dogs opened the door and let her out. The dog was soon caught and carried away, but, with the help of a high-ranking cadre, Esther managed to locate the compound where the animals were kept. ‘I walked up and down stumbling over dead and dying dogs, shouting out Hsiao Mee’s name, trying to drown out the barks and whines of hundreds of dogs. Eventually I found her. She was in a cage with several others. She jumped up and tried to lick my face, trembling with fear and perhaps excited, hoping that I had come to take her home. I could only sit there and stroke her.’ Esther came back to the compound regularly, even taking a pair of scissors to the dog’s coat in the hope that she would not be slaughtered for her skin. But in the end all she was allowed to do was to feed her pet some scraps of pork from the canteen and look on as the animal shivered and ate from the bowl in her mangled coat. Finally, with the help of a sympathetic cadre, Esther was given a pistol. She took off the safety catch, pressed the barrel against the dog’s ear and blew her head off.

Dogs were denounced as a threat to public hygiene and a symbol of bourgeois decadence at a time of food shortages. Except for those owned by a few privileged diplomats and top officials, they were soon cleared from the cities. But parts of the countryside continued to resist for several years. In Guangdong, efforts to impose a cull backfired in 1952, as angry villagers openly defied the authorities. Killing a landlord was one thing, but taking away a man’s dog was another matter altogether, as they protected homesteads, crops and livestock. In Shandong, where almost every family kept a dog, repeated culls also failed. In the end, however, even the countryside fell into line.

Maybe you should ask yourselves why a totalitarian government thought it was a worthwhile venture to spend time and resources on killing dogs in the name of "germs" especially right after disarming the citizens and before implementing horrifying policies like the One-Child policy.

https://anti-empire.com/forced-vaccinations-face-masks-cities-washed-in-poisons-the-maoist-anti-germ-frenzy-of-of-1952/

DhammaStep says

It's clear that we're going to disagree until the end of time on this subject and frankly the knowledge gaps makes any actual discussion on the topic impossible.

It's not impossible. I don't want government intervention as a semi libertarian for sure, but that's not the discussion. Just stop breeding them. There are other breeds that should be banned as well. There are also other breeds of dogs you can get.

Counterpoint. Should I be able to have a mountain lion, bear or tiger as a pet that could potentially get out? I'd imagine that's a resounding no unless you've got enclosures that are secure and inspected. Look at Turkey after that earthquake. They built buildings like shit and killed thousands, but you thought you could live in them.

A pitt bull can kill in a moment regardless of the owners training. Even if by the best pit bull trainer. Especially older pits where they go the equivalent of senile with old age. The training goes out the window and it's a 100lbs dog that could still rip your arm off. A dog like a yorkie will do the same. The bites would hurt, but it's not going to kill you. Probably more common honestly. It's the idea that an animal at any moment, unprovoked could kill you or someone else.

Another point, drug dogs. Super trained. They've gotten it wrong on me multiple times when I was in high school. I had fun Junior and Senior year in high school, but I got hit two times by the K-9 unit random search of the parking lot (illegal) at school. I never smoked in my car. I never even had a bag of weed in my car. This was the 90's. So these "super highly trained" dogs fucked it up, yet I'm expecting Dante and Shaquanda down the block to train their pit properly? Hells no.

Ok, if your illegal dog breed kills someone, then you're subject to lethal injection. As well as the person that sold you the dog. You'll also be responsible for health bills and pain and suffering. Can't pay, prison. Deal?

WookieMan says

It's not impossible

Sorry, but it is. I've already stated my stance that I don't consider pitbulls and similar breeds to be "pets" and you respond with the nonsense about bears and lions. The word "pet" evokes some strange comparision that they should be treated like goldfish or cats. I consider having large animals of any kind to be a full time responsibility. These are not animals you let your children hang out with alone. No responsible pitbull owner I've known has had children below the age of 14 before owning one and those teenagers must be trained themselves on dog ownership as well. Based on what you said about "Dante and Shaniqua" it's clear you're depending on some sort of government intervention to police human behavior, not animal behavior. What if I want to keep Dante and Shaniqua off my property when I'm not around? Is the government going to keep watch for me?

Should I be able to have a mountain lion, bear or tiger as a pet that could potentially get out? I'd imagine that's a resounding no unless you've got enclosures that are secure and inspected.

We have zoos that are "secure and inspected" and animals still get out. We don't ban zoos entirely because a small minority of animals escape, do we? The entire stance screams of "please don't let the bad things happen." Impossible, bad things will happen. Schools are shot up yearly and that's something we've learned to live with, isn't it?

Do I think people should be owning animals because of image or status symbols? No, I don't think you should even own a cat just because you think they're cute. Just like arms, animals are a responsibility. For clarity sake I will spell it out: pitbulls (and similar breeds) are territorial defense weapons and the need for defending your territory has not and will not change, ever.

GNL says

Ok, if your illegal dog breed kills someone, then you're subject to lethal injection. As well as the person that sold you the dog. You'll also be responsible for health bills and pain and suffering. Can't pay, prison. Deal?

I don't make deals with people that use propaganda and emotional appeals to take my rights away. Sorry.

DhammaStep says

For clarity sake I will spell it out: pitbulls (and similar breeds) are territorial defense weapons and the need for defending your territory has not and will not change, ever.

Defense of what? I live in the middle of nowhere. Never have remotely felt threatened. Where are these dogs needed as a territorial defense weapon?? Isn't that what a gun is for? I'm not relying on an animal to protect me that will eat a steak thrown their way as a treat when I rob you. Protection is on me as a man. I'm not following your logic.

If you're the F-350 guy that doesn't haul, tow or use it for anything that's productive, that's fine. The F-350 isn't going to just run me over though out of your control. A pit bull and similar breeds is all image like you're a tough guy. This really isn't a topic that's worth discussing, but I bit on it... like a pit bull. Get a gun and call it a day. Even trained aggressive dogs are easy to tame in 2 seconds. You're not stopping a thinking human with a shotgun.

WookieMan says

Defense of what?

This attitude is precisely why having a discussion about this is impossible. The entire world isn't like your Disney life. My cousin was raped by three men and they slit her throat, in her own house. Breaking and entering is illegal. Rape is illegal. Murder is illegal. Would a pitbull have been an additional deterrent? You better believe it. Would even a single bark in the night given her enough time to wake up and arm herself? Maybe. We'll never know now. Or in your imagination, these scumbags are carrying around steaks in their back pocket when they're feeling rapey? Shooting the dog itself would make enough noise to alert the neighborhood, or are they carrying shotgun silencers too?

You talk about "tough guy image" and "small dick energy" because you believe your experience and viewpoint is the only correct one. This is ego speaking, not logic. Not facts. Not truth.

DhammaStep says

WookieMan says

Defense of what?

This attitude is precisely why having a discussion about this is impossible. The entire world isn't like your Disney life. My cousin was raped by three men and they slit her throat, in her own house. Breaking and entering is illegal. Rape is illegal. Murder is illegal. Would a pitbull have been an additional deterrent? You better believe it. Would even a single bark in the night given her enough time to wake up and arm herself? Maybe. We'll never know now. Or in your imagination, these scumbags are carrying around steaks in their back pocket when they're feeling rapey? Shooting the dog itself would make enough noise to alert the neighborhood, or are they carrying shotgun silencers too?

You talk about "tough guy image" and "small dick energy" because you believe your experience and viewpoint is the only correct one. This is ego speaking...

You're not making a bad point. The problem is responsibility and how far do we take it. Answer Wookieman's question...should I be able to have a self defense lion or not?

Does this dumb bitch look like she could stop this dog from killing your child?

GNL says

Does this dumb bitch look like she could stop this dog from killing your child?

If I'm being forced to answer stupid questions I'll just ask them back. Why don't you just shoot the dog attacking your child? In fact, why not give your five year old a gun to make sure they're safe 24/7? After all, it's just personal responsibility, isn't it?

@WookieMan @GNL I'm sorry but I'm going to have to back away from this thread for now. It's brought up a lot of bad memories and feelings for me and it's become too personal. You can take it as a sign of cowardice or a failure of my ability to debate as you please but I know my limits. Perhaps I'll be back to this topic in a few months.

DhammaStep says

WookieMan GNL I'm sorry but I'm going to have to back away from this thread for now. It's brought up a lot of bad memories and feelings for me and it's become too personal. You can take it as a sign of cowardice or a failure of my ability to debate as you please but I know my limits. Perhaps I'll be back to this topic in a few months.

Your story sucks dude. I mean that in an empathetic way. I don't want anyone to have to go through that. I've had personal trauma as well and I'm sure other users have as well. Not trying to shit on you. We're not attacking, just conversing about a controversial breed of dog. We had no clue what you or your family went through until you mentioned. My apologies. No offense was intended.

Get the dog if you want it though. It won't be outlawed ever. But have sympathy for the kids and people that have been maimed and killed by them. It's a two way street is all. My opinion is they should not be breeding them anymore. There's security cameras, alarms, guns, etc. A dog is child's play for a real criminal. If you have a postal carrier that walks and drops mail off, let me know how that pit bull does is all. I am sincerely sorry for the trauma you endured, all we're saying is a dog is not the answer and it can harm other people just as your family member was.

Seriously sorry though dude. I did not expect it to go down this rabbit hole. As someone with multiple suicides and early deaths in the family I can understand the anger. Sorry we triggered an awful memory.

Yes, sorry for your loss. Do you have the same empathy for children who have been killed by these dogs? If not, then you really only care about yourself and your own experiences.

Look, there's less than 100 deaths by dogs per year in the United States:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States

The vaccines have killed more people, FAR more people. Drug over doses kill more people, automobile accidents kill more people, guns kill more people.. The number of deaths caused by dogs is so low, it's not even worth thinking about.

GNL says

Ok, if your illegal dog breed kills someone, then you're subject to lethal injection. As well as the person that sold you the dog. You'll also be responsible for health bills and pain and suffering. Can't pay, prison. Deal?

Now something along this lines I would be fine with. The only question, don't we have it already? If it's shown that your dog was not trained, or trained to be aggressive, that you did not properly secure them, and they kill someone, I think the owner should at the least be up for manslaughter.

On the person who sold it, only if it can be proven they knowingly sold the dog to someone who was not qualified to own the dog. And then, at most manslaughter, but only in the worst cases. Again, if we follow the same philosophy as we would for anything that could be a potential danger or weapon, it should be a fairly standard assessment.

GNL says

You're not making a bad point. The problem is responsibility and how far do we take it. Answer Wookieman's question...should I be able to have a self defense lion or not?

No self defense lion, this is totally different from a weapon which can be controlled. That's why even people who mostly succeed at controlling lions do so in cages so only they get maimed if the lion decides otherwise. No man/womyn has enough body strength to control a lion on a leash. Strong/big dogs are pretty much the borderline.

mell says

GNL says

You're not making a bad point. The problem is responsibility and how far do we take it. Answer Wookieman's question...should I be able to have a self defense lion or not?

No self defense lion, this is totally different from a weapon which can be controlled. That's why even people who mostly succeed at controlling lions do so in cages so only they get maimed if the lion decides otherwise. No man/womyn has enough body strength to control a lion on a leash. Strong/big dogs are pretty much the borderline.

But what if I can demonstrate that my self defense lion won't bite my head off when I put my head in it's mouth? Doesn't that prove that MY lion is safe?

GNL says

mell says

GNL says

You're not making a bad point. The problem is responsibility and how far do we take it. Answer Wookieman's question...should I be able to have a self defense lion or not?

No self defense lion, this is totally different from a weapon which can be controlled. That's why even people who mostly succeed at controlling lions do so in cages so only they get maimed if the lion decides otherwise. No man/womyn has enough body strength to control a lion on a leash. Strong/big dogs are pretty much the borderline.

But what if I can demonstrate that my self defense lion won't bite my head off when I put my head in it's mouth? Doesn't that prove that MY lion is safe?

Haha, no, because they are ruled by animal instincts unbeknownst to men, next time could be different