patrick.net

Putin is just following NATOs precedent set in 1999 when they illegally attacked a sovereign nation (Serbia) and chopped off Kosovo.

Yep. And nobody gave a shit about Austria and Italy arming the Croat Militias, or the Arabs dumping weapons and terrorist volunteers (many who went on to fight in Iraq and Syria as various AQ/ISIS members) in Bosnia. Only EBIL SERBIA was functionally blockaded.

The Western Press never mentioned that the first act of Independent Croatia was to round up all Serbian military age males in concentration camps with no trial and no charges, 70,000 of them. Reminding Serbia of Jasenovak, when Nazis and Croats executed hundreds of thousands of Serbian Orthodox.

Nomograph says

Well said, Neville.

Look who's gone full NeoCon! The warhawks find friends on all sides of the aisle now days.

Look at how the propaganda on the lab leak is changing now that China might start supporting Russia. We should have never gotten involved in Ukraine, NATO should have been dissolved with the end of the Soviet Union. The War machine just keeps it going.

Nomograph says

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Well said, Neville.

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

Ukraine War Poses Existential Threat To Survival Of The Russian People: Putin

(Interpretation: if Russia is backed into a corner by the USA & NATO, they will go nuclear)

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/ukraine-war-poses-existential-threat-survival-russian-people-putin

RayAmerica says

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

You keep asking these types of questions to America and the West.

Why aren't you asking this of Putin and the Russians since they are the only ones that can stop the carnage? Ukrainians are not going to just sit back and let Russia take over their country. America could cut off weapons today, but Ukraine would still fight and form insurgent movements in the occupied portions of their country - keeping this conflict burning hot for years.

Imagine the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - but 10X!

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing? Once you have identified the threat to Russia, was that threat greater than all of the Russian loss of life and military equipment this past year in their total fuck up of a war?

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing? Once you have identified the threat to Russia, was that threat greater than all of the Russian loss of life and military equipment this past year in their total fuck up of a war?

Outside of oil and gas Russia has nothing for the most part. Its land is shit besides the resources. Cold as fuck. It's misery. But someone has to make the vodka and get the resources out of the ground. That's why they want the somewhat more temperate land and access to a warm water port consistently.

Think Canada. Go 200 miles inland north of the border and live from October to May and enjoy. I believe Alaska is the highest suicide state in the nation. That's 80% of Russia basically. Actually it's Wyoming, didn't see that coming: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/suicide-mortality/suicide.htm

Either way, Russia is shit land. They're alway going to try and move West. IF they were a superpower they could have just purchased the land from one of the most corrupt nations on the planet. They chose to throw 1950's war machines at it and a bunch of drunks. It's like going into a bar and punching the guy that just got served a beer and you could have just bought it yourself. Russians are morons. So are Ukrainians.

socal2,

Several questions for you ... I'd really appreciate some answers.

Were you in favor of the CIA led Coup in 2014 which removed the duly elected government of Ukraine, only to be replaced by a CIA puppet government which just so happened to be hostile to Russia?

Are you in favor of the never ending expansion of NATO, all designed to isolate and threaten Russia?

Are you in favor of the placement of offensive weapons, all aimed at Russia, in NATO nations and territories, including Ukraine?

Are you willing to start World War III over the Ukraine conflict? (Rutgers Univ. recently conducted a study of such a scenario and concluded that within 5 years, over 2 BILLION people would die)

Would you be supportive of a hostile China organizing a coalition of nations in our region and hemisphere, along with installing offensive (including nuclear) weapons, all aimed at mainland America?

Would you be supportive of Canada, Cuba and Mexico joining such a coalition, or, would you view this as a threat to America?

HeadSet says

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

It's not about NATO necessarily. Western Europeans are pussies. They're worried about the US. We're literally at war with Russia now. We just don't have enlisted boots on the ground. This doesn't end well for Russia either way. Ukraine is already destroyed in many areas.

Frankly dumbfounded by anyone that thinks Russia wins this. If the West keeps sending weapons and training, Russia stands no chance. They've built nothing new. If Putin says push the nuclear button in 10 minutes, there's a high probability it won't work. They had 40 fucking miles of equipment destroyed and/or taken. They didn't bring fuel or food.

Do people not watch videos? There's a reason 90% of Russians have dash cams in their cars. Because people will walk out in front of cars, fake getting hit and make money off of it. I am of Eastern European descent. We are ass holes. My parents were born here and so was I, but it's in my gut. I know I'm a dick. Russian, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, etc are all dicks.

HeadSet says

socal2 says

Seriously, what would a Western/NATO aligned Ukraine "threat" be in concrete terms to Russia other than prestige and Putin's standing?

NATO naval bases on the Black Sea at Sevastopol and Odessa.

Would those naval bases result in 100,000+ dead/injured Russians and loss of thousands of tanks, BMPs, trucks, helicopters, jets.......let alone the destruction of Nord stream pipeline?

I just fail to see the cost benefit analysis or ROI for Russia in all this.

If Russia managed to quickly knock out Kiev in the first few weeks and limit casualties on both sides, it might have worked like Georgia and Crimea. But that ship has totally sailed where Russia's ham-fisted fuckups have only galvanized a generation of Ukrainians to hate Russia like never before. Even if Russia manages to totally pacify Ukraine and bomb it to the stone age - what have they gained other than a destroyed buffer zone holding tens of thousands of Russian corpses and a more unified Europe and NATO.

RayAmerica says

socal2,

Several questions for you ... I'd really appreciate some answers.

Were you in favor of the CIA led Coup in 2014 which removed the duly elected government of Ukraine, only to be replaced by a CIA puppet government which just so happened to be hostile to Russia?

Are you in favor of the never ending expansion of NATO, all designed to isolate and threaten Russia?

Are you in favor of the placement of offensive weapons, all aimed at Russia, in NATO nations and territories, including Ukraine?

Are you willing to start World War III over the Ukraine conflict? (Rutgers Univ. recently conducted a study of such a scenario and concluded that within 5 years, over 2 BILLION people would die)

Would you be supportive of a hostile China organizing a coalition of nations in our region and hemisphere, along with installing offensive (including nuclear) weapons, all aimed at mainland America?

Would you be supportive of Canada, Cuba a...

Respectfully, all these questions are meaningless because there was never a universe where Ukraine (let alone NATO) were going to invade or attack Moscow - let alone try to occupy that shit country. As Wookieman has pointed out, Russia's land is shit - their only value is oil and gas. And that won't be worth that much in 50+ years.

All of the actions of NATO and so called coups 10+ years ago are defensive REACTIONS of Eastern European nations trying to peel themselves away and protect themselves from Russian influence. They saw what Putin did to to Chechnya, Georgia and Crimea and didn't want to be next.

And judging by Russia's actions in the past year destroying hundreds of thousands of lives, Ukraine had every right to want the protection of NATO.

Some people are dumb and dishonest.

socal2 says

Would those naval bases result in 100,000+ dead/injured Russians and loss of thousands of tanks, BMPs, trucks, helicopters, jets.......let alone the destruction of Nord stream pipeline?

No, the Russians did not have a crystal ball. What they did see, and what the US government should have seen, is that Russia would consider a NATO aligned Ukraine as an existential threat. Thus, when the 2014 coup happened and replaced a pro-Russia government with a pro NATO government, then the Ukraine constitution was amended to allow membership in NATO, then the US Vice Presidents talks about adding Ukraine to NATO, then Russia sees fit to annex Crimea to stop a NATO naval base at Sevastopol. Seems to me that US government neocons wanted this war, and kept prodding the bear until it attacked.

The entire expansion of NATO after the USSR fell was total aggression against Russia. I'd say the only caveat being the three Baltic States.

Ukraine has been poking the bear since then and the neocons managed to prod Putin enough to make him out to be the aggressor in western media by invading. It's just such pro-level baiting and propaganda, which we excel at, and Ukraine and US taxpayers are paying for it.

HeadSet says

No, the Russians did not have a crystal ball. What they did see, and what the US government should have seen, is that Russia would consider a NATO aligned Ukraine as an existential threat

Sorry - I am just not buying any of this bit about an expanded NATO being "existential threat" to Russia or Putin.

There is no universe where NATO was going to invade Russia.

The EU was perfectly happy buying every last bit of oil and gas Russia was willing to sell. There is nothing else of value that Russia has or can provide. We just wanted Putin to stay in his borders and pump as much gas as possible.

An expanded NATO certainly puts a crimp on Putin's plans of invading and dominating more Eastern European countries - so unless we are now at the point where we are claiming Russia has legitimate rights to their former Commie Slave colonies they occupied after WWII - I really fail to see how we can blame any of this needless death and destruction on NATO or the West.

This ALL falls on Putin - and he is the only one that could stop this human catastrophe overnight.

But for some inexplicable reason, we have normally anti-war folks on the Right basically egging on Putin to keep fighting an unwinnable war and risking WWIII.

RedStar says

The entire expansion of NATO after the USSR fell was total aggression against Russia

Please be specific.

Can you define NATO "aggression"?

What territorial designs did NATO have on Russia other than building a defensive shield for sovereign nations that are not Russian?

No one was demanding that Russia change borders, give up land or pay reparations for 100+ years of fucking up the planet (including funding and arming Marxist insurgencies all over the 3rd world).

We just wanted Putin to stop invading their sovereign neighbors and getting thousands of human beings killed causing world instability. Based on Russia's recent history (let alone catastrophic history of the 20th century) - Eastern European countries like Ukraine had every right to want NATO protection and not be comically labeled an "aggressor".

cisTits says

socal2 says

Sorry - I am just not buying any of this bit about an expanded NATO being "existential threat" to Russia or Putin.

Then you just demonstrated a poor understanding of Russian geopolitical imperatives.

Russia doesn't need most of Ukraine for the sake of having it. Ukraine is just in the way. So is Moldova, the Baltic nations and chunks of Romania and Poland.

Please educate me.

What are Ukraine and Moldova in the way of? Sounds like Putin and Russia have some serious plans outside their borders??

Thought Russia was just a poor victim of NATO "aggression" and a victim in all this?

socal2 says

There is no universe where NATO was going to invade Russia.

Russian point of view. In 1939 Germany and the USSR had a non- aggression pact. Germany and the USSR just divided up Poland, with their soldiers shaking hands as they met in the middle. In 1940-41 Germany was busy with Britain. No way Germany would invade the USSR in 1941, especially since the USSR let the Germans train for years in Soviet territory as a way to undermine the Versailles Treaty limitations. Surprise!

^ 100 up votes.

HeadSet says

Russian point of view. In 1939 Germany and the USSR had a non- aggression pact. Germany and the USSR just divided up Poland, with their soldiers shaking hands as they met in the middle. In 1940-41 Germany was busy with Britain. No way Germany would invade the USSR in 1941, especially since the USSR let the Germans train for years in Soviet territory as a way to undermine the Versailles Treaty limitations. Surprise!

Right - the Commies teamed up with the Nazis to carve up Europe and got double-crossed by the Nazis.

Russia getting double-crossed by their Nazi allies, is in no way a legitimate excuse for Russia being the aggressor again in Ukraine 80 years later!

Total fucking paranoia!

In fact, Russia never paid the diplomatic price for being Nazi allies let alone occupying Eastern Europe after WWII - stunting generations with their retardation.

If we are going to use 20th century history to justify Russia's aggression in 2023, than Ukraine has a shit-ton of lived experience to justify wanting to be aligned with the West along with NATO protection.......and not be under the thumb of Putin and Russia.

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

Were you in favor of the CIA led Coup in 2014 which removed the duly elected government of Ukraine, only to be replaced by a CIA puppet government which just so happened to be hostile to Russia?

Are you in favor of the never ending expansion of NATO, all designed to isolate and threaten Russia?

Are you in favor of the placement of offensive weapons, all aimed at Russia, in NATO nations and territories, including Ukraine?

Are you willing to start World War III over the Ukraine conflict? (Rutgers Univ. recently conducted a study of such a scenario and concluded that within 5 years, over 2 BILLION people would die)

Would you be supportive of a hostile China organizing a coalition of nations in our region and hemisphere, along with installing offensive (including nuclear) weapons, all aimed at mainland America?

Would you be supportive of Canada, Cuba and Mexico joining such a coalition, or, would you view this as a threat to America?

socal2 says

If we are going to use 20th century history to justify Russia's aggression in 2023, than Ukraine has a shit-ton of lived experience to justify wanting to be aligned with the West along with NATO protection.......and not be under the thumb of Putin and Russia.

The other thing is geopolitically Russia simply needs more fertile land. This isn't an argument for either side. They want more tillable land. Gas and Oil only allow you to sell it and import most of you food that's not vodka. Russia is a generally useless landmass. Ice locked to the north with Crimea being their only 24/7 body of water for shipping and trade. We trade with China so an Eastern port is useless to them. South America has it's own oil, with issues, but it's cheaper to get from the ME.

Russia is 100% backed into a corner. That's what this is. Who honestly knows who blew up Nordstream? Doesn't matter. They're kind of fucked. Lob nukes and they're fucked in 24 hours with useless land besides the resources in the earth which can still be extracted upon take over. We'd take out military and civilians if they nuke civilians elsewhere. It would take two bombs on our end to wipe out Russia. We likely have 4-8 subs with ICBM's that could strike in 10 minutes.

As I said I give no shits about Ukraine. Russia has shown to be the emperor with no clothes.

Biden: Only the 'MAGA Crowd' Is Questioning the Billions Spent on War in Ukraine

(I guess Biden believes that all those Union workers with insolvent pension funds aren't bothered by the fact that we are bailing out the pensions for Ukrainians, but not Americans)

https://cnsnews.com/article/washington/susan-jones/biden-only-maga-crowd-questioning-billions-spent-war-ukraine

PS: Feeling the inflation pinch yet? If not, you will. It's only going to get worse.

RayAmerica says

Biden: Only the 'MAGA Crowd' Is Questioning the Billions Spent on War in Ukraine

(I guess Biden believes that all those Union workers with insolvent pension funds aren't bothered by the fact that we are bailing out the pensions for Ukrainians, but not Americans)

I hate Biden.

That said, people need to man/woman up and take care of their own finances and not expect any government to do shit for them. I sure as hell don't. I don't need a union. If yours is insolvent that's on you and your other members. Not the government. Government already pays out WAY too much for mindless jobs. Prevailing wage here in IL for sitting in a fucking truck is $40/hr+. Then the unions come after your company if you don't unionize.

If you can't live off ~$90k a year and not save or have a shit union, that's on you. These are jobs you can get out of high school.

I get the feeling that a lot of people went to college, see the government spending money elsewhere and are jealous about their situation in life. Odds are they didn't pay a dime in anything sent to Ukraine which is the ironic part. Bitching about something you didn't contribute to while your union fucking robs you.

RayAmerica says

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

I did answer you before.

I said all your questions are moot - because there was no universe where Ukraine or NATO was going to attack Russia. There was never a "threat" to Russia. It is all fucking Russian propaganda and paranoia trying to justify their monumental cock-up.

Everything Ukraine did leading up to Russia's illegal invasion (including the so called coup....) were efforts of Ukraine to get out from under the thumb of Russia. I fully support EVERY Eastern European country to be free of Russian influence and to finally get rid of the chains that were thrown on them after WWII with Communist USSR's occupation. Just like I support any nation (short of going to war or using violence) to try and get out from under the influence of Communist China.

I can see why Russia was pissed that they were losing another slave colony satrapy in Ukraine to launder money through and sell weapons (like the Bidens!) and secure fertile/productive land. But there was no military threat ever to Russia justifying this terrible war and loss of human life. It is just an old fashion land grab - nothing more.

Putin can stop the killing today if he wants. No matter how many times people want to bring up NATO, Nuland, coups, and Nazi Homo Globalists in Ukraine - Russia had no moral or legal justification for invading their sovereign neighbor.

WookieMan says

Russia is 100% backed into a corner. That's what this is. Who honestly knows who blew up Nordstream?

Everybody knows who blew up the Nordstream unless they have a brain parasite. I am so disgusted that people will believe the Neocons at this point. They always, always, always, every fucking time, tell the most outrageous lies.

They claim Russia did it, which means they did it. They always without fail accuse their enemies of what they have done. They've been doing this for 20 years. Where have you been?

richwicks says

They always, always, always, every fucking time, tell the most outrageous lies.

Is it not the most "outrageous lie" of them all to claim Ukraine is filled with Neo-Nazis threatening Russian sovereign territory - hence the need for a full blown war and hundreds of thousands of dead human beings?

socal2 says

RayAmerica says

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

I did answer you before.

I said all your questions are moot - because there was no universe where Ukraine or NATO was going to attack Russia. There was never a "threat" to Russia. It is all fucking Russian propaganda and paranoia trying to justify their monumental cock-up.

Everything Ukraine did leading up to Russia's illegal invasion (including the so called coup....) were efforts of Ukraine to get out from under the thumb of Russia. I fully support EVERY Eastern European country to be free of Russian influence and to finally get rid of the chains that were thrown on them after WWII with Communist USSR's occupation. Just like I support any nation (short of going to war or using violence) to try and get out from under the influence of Communist China.

I can see why Russia w...

You must live in another universe if you can't see the threat that NATO expansion was to Russia. First off, the US promised them not to expand into the former Soviet bloc, then we did so and armed them and set up nice shiny rocket bases in all of them too. How do you not see Russia's POV on this?

Then we invaded Kosovo/ bombed Sebia to the stone age in 99. Also deliberately bombed the Chinese embassy there.

Then we start muddling in Ukraine in 2014 and perform a coup de tat.

All the history is there unless you want to be a NATO apologist.

RedStar says

You must live in another universe if you can't see the threat that NATO expansion was to Russia

Again - please tell me what the "threat" NATO expansion was on Russia other than keeping Russia within their internationally recognized borders?

It's not as if the USSR and Russia don't have a major history of invading and occupying their smaller and weaker neighbors.

RedStar says

All the history is there unless you want to be a NATO apologist.

NATO wants nothing to do with Russia. There's nothing there and Westerners are not going in for gas and oil because it's cold as fuck and no one likes vodka generally. They were happy buying the gas and oil from Russia or the ME.

When NATO attacks Russia let us know. This is a proxy war and the only country that's attacked anyone is Russia. No one ever attacked Russia. I don't get this point of view. If Russia want to fuel the fire bring it on. They'll lose. And I don't even care who wins. It's a waste of fucking time and life.

WookieMan says

When NATO attacks Russia let us know.

But but but........we are being told that NATO's very existence is somehow an existential threat to Russia! Therefore, Russia has every right to invade their non-NATO neighbors and get hundreds of thousands of people killed for nothing!

We are to believe that Russia is somehow safer now, after losing so many of their military in Ukraine and showing the whole world the sad state of affairs of the Russian fighting force. Russia is using prisoners for cannon fodder FFS! How much more pathetic can they be?

Russia getting so many of their young men killed for nothing is just hastening their demographic collapse.

Where is the silver lining for Russia in all of this?

How many Russians do you think have died in this war? Best count I saw was about 28,000 to ten times that number of Ukrainians. Russia isn’t losing. Not by any metric. They’ve won a fair amount of land that won’t be given up without blood and they might just finish off Ukraine

cisTits says

Shaman says

How many Russians do you think have died in this war? Best count I saw was about 28,000 to ten times that number of Ukrainians. Russia isn’t losing. Not by any metric. They’ve won a fair amount of land that won’t be given up without blood and they might just finish off Ukraine

About that in their regular army. Convicts used as cannon fodder by Wagner Group don't count.

In virtually every war - attackers have 3X the casualties as defenders. The ratio is probably worse with the incompetent Russian military, untrained convicts and trench warfare with heavy reliance on artillery.

Every day, there are new videos like this showing 100's of Russian's getting killed or grievously wounded by off the shelf drones. Imagine how many more Russians are dying from HIMARS or massive artillery strikes that can't be filmed this close and personal? How many Russians are being executed by the Russian military and Wagner for fleeing the front lines? How many are freezing to death?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmfrKLiml2Y

Is this a job for our 'Treasury Secretary?' Why is the former head of the Federal Reserve in Ukraine promising another $1.25 BILLION to this notoriously corrupt little nation? By doing so, does she get
kick back money deposited into her off shore account?

Yellen In Ukraine Announces Another $1.25 Billion

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/yellen-ukrainian-announces-another-125-billion

The New York Times reports that "The trip — during which Ms. Yellen announced the transfer of $1.25 billion in economic and budget assistance to Ukraine — is part of a concerted diplomatic push by the Biden administration to show support for Ukraine while maintaining pressure on Russia."

PS: Why is there no accountability as to where all of this money is going, and, how EXACTLY it is being used for Ukraine's 'economic and budget assistance?'

America has a $31 Trillion National Debt ... and counting, with another $150 Trillion in off budget obligations. How long can this insane, reckless spending go on before there is a collapse?

Sorry but that’s just speculation based on nothing but Hopium.
Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.
When the foreign mercenaries joined the fight to help Ukraine, they did better for a time. But the thing about mercenaries is that they tend to abandon a losing side because they’re unwilling to be martyrs.

The war in Ukraine is just more money laundering for the NWO. Putin is likely just playing his part as the villain, but he’s staying within the lines.
Honestly, he seems like a much better President than Joementia who totters between senility and bouts of angry old man irrationality. That and he’s a fucking Nazi fascist asshole who mandated that people take the poisonous vaccine which has undoubtedly caused the greatest medical disaster of our time, targeting our own younger work force. It’s shameful that he’s our President. This country is run by scammers and bastards. The world would be safer without the USA.

Shaman says

Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.

And? This is a fucking bar fight for no legitimate reason. Until one side admits they were the idiot this will drag on. Unfortunately both sides are idiots. We're just buying one idiot a couple beers or vodkas to drag the fight out. This is the war. Russia was insecure that someone was hitting on their girlfriend and it escalated to this. Now the friends of the girl are coming in with guns blazing. Or at least handing them guns. That's a real world depiction of this war that many/most people have experienced.

WookieMan says

Shaman says

Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.

And? This is a fucking bar fight for no legitimate reason. Until one side admits they were the idiot this will drag on. Unfortunately both sides are idiots. We're just buying one idiot a couple beers or vodkas to drag the fight out. This is the war. Russia was insecure that someone was hitting on their girlfriend and it escalated to this. Now the friends of the girl are coming in with guns blazing. Or at least handing them guns. That's a real world depiction of this war that many/most people have experienced.

The problem is we are edging closer and closer to a hot war.And if it comes to that, I sure as hell dont want Lets go Brandon at the wheel.

And we are literally paying billions for it.

RayAmerica says

Nomograph says

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Well said, Neville.

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

you know this got me thinking. is ukraine more corrupt than us? lately im not sure if that answer is clear. have witnessed too much corruption.