patrick.net

RedStar says

The entire expansion of NATO after the USSR fell was total aggression against Russia

Please be specific.

Can you define NATO "aggression"?

What territorial designs did NATO have on Russia other than building a defensive shield for sovereign nations that are not Russian?

No one was demanding that Russia change borders, give up land or pay reparations for 100+ years of fucking up the planet (including funding and arming Marxist insurgencies all over the 3rd world).

We just wanted Putin to stop invading their sovereign neighbors and getting thousands of human beings killed causing world instability. Based on Russia's recent history (let alone catastrophic history of the 20th century) - Eastern European countries like Ukraine had every right to want NATO protection and not be comically labeled an "aggressor".

cisTits says

socal2 says

Sorry - I am just not buying any of this bit about an expanded NATO being "existential threat" to Russia or Putin.

Then you just demonstrated a poor understanding of Russian geopolitical imperatives.

Russia doesn't need most of Ukraine for the sake of having it. Ukraine is just in the way. So is Moldova, the Baltic nations and chunks of Romania and Poland.

Please educate me.

What are Ukraine and Moldova in the way of? Sounds like Putin and Russia have some serious plans outside their borders??

Thought Russia was just a poor victim of NATO "aggression" and a victim in all this?

socal2 says

There is no universe where NATO was going to invade Russia.

Russian point of view. In 1939 Germany and the USSR had a non- aggression pact. Germany and the USSR just divided up Poland, with their soldiers shaking hands as they met in the middle. In 1940-41 Germany was busy with Britain. No way Germany would invade the USSR in 1941, especially since the USSR let the Germans train for years in Soviet territory as a way to undermine the Versailles Treaty limitations. Surprise!

^ 100 up votes.

HeadSet says

Russian point of view. In 1939 Germany and the USSR had a non- aggression pact. Germany and the USSR just divided up Poland, with their soldiers shaking hands as they met in the middle. In 1940-41 Germany was busy with Britain. No way Germany would invade the USSR in 1941, especially since the USSR let the Germans train for years in Soviet territory as a way to undermine the Versailles Treaty limitations. Surprise!

Right - the Commies teamed up with the Nazis to carve up Europe and got double-crossed by the Nazis.

Russia getting double-crossed by their Nazi allies, is in no way a legitimate excuse for Russia being the aggressor again in Ukraine 80 years later!

Total fucking paranoia!

In fact, Russia never paid the diplomatic price for being Nazi allies let alone occupying Eastern Europe after WWII - stunting generations with their retardation.

If we are going to use 20th century history to justify Russia's aggression in 2023, than Ukraine has a shit-ton of lived experience to justify wanting to be aligned with the West along with NATO protection.......and not be under the thumb of Putin and Russia.

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

Were you in favor of the CIA led Coup in 2014 which removed the duly elected government of Ukraine, only to be replaced by a CIA puppet government which just so happened to be hostile to Russia?

Are you in favor of the never ending expansion of NATO, all designed to isolate and threaten Russia?

Are you in favor of the placement of offensive weapons, all aimed at Russia, in NATO nations and territories, including Ukraine?

Are you willing to start World War III over the Ukraine conflict? (Rutgers Univ. recently conducted a study of such a scenario and concluded that within 5 years, over 2 BILLION people would die)

Would you be supportive of a hostile China organizing a coalition of nations in our region and hemisphere, along with installing offensive (including nuclear) weapons, all aimed at mainland America?

Would you be supportive of Canada, Cuba and Mexico joining such a coalition, or, would you view this as a threat to America?

socal2 says

If we are going to use 20th century history to justify Russia's aggression in 2023, than Ukraine has a shit-ton of lived experience to justify wanting to be aligned with the West along with NATO protection.......and not be under the thumb of Putin and Russia.

The other thing is geopolitically Russia simply needs more fertile land. This isn't an argument for either side. They want more tillable land. Gas and Oil only allow you to sell it and import most of you food that's not vodka. Russia is a generally useless landmass. Ice locked to the north with Crimea being their only 24/7 body of water for shipping and trade. We trade with China so an Eastern port is useless to them. South America has it's own oil, with issues, but it's cheaper to get from the ME.

Russia is 100% backed into a corner. That's what this is. Who honestly knows who blew up Nordstream? Doesn't matter. They're kind of fucked. Lob nukes and they're fucked in 24 hours with useless land besides the resources in the earth which can still be extracted upon take over. We'd take out military and civilians if they nuke civilians elsewhere. It would take two bombs on our end to wipe out Russia. We likely have 4-8 subs with ICBM's that could strike in 10 minutes.

As I said I give no shits about Ukraine. Russia has shown to be the emperor with no clothes.

Biden: Only the 'MAGA Crowd' Is Questioning the Billions Spent on War in Ukraine

(I guess Biden believes that all those Union workers with insolvent pension funds aren't bothered by the fact that we are bailing out the pensions for Ukrainians, but not Americans)

https://cnsnews.com/article/washington/susan-jones/biden-only-maga-crowd-questioning-billions-spent-war-ukraine

PS: Feeling the inflation pinch yet? If not, you will. It's only going to get worse.

RayAmerica says

Biden: Only the 'MAGA Crowd' Is Questioning the Billions Spent on War in Ukraine

(I guess Biden believes that all those Union workers with insolvent pension funds aren't bothered by the fact that we are bailing out the pensions for Ukrainians, but not Americans)

I hate Biden.

That said, people need to man/woman up and take care of their own finances and not expect any government to do shit for them. I sure as hell don't. I don't need a union. If yours is insolvent that's on you and your other members. Not the government. Government already pays out WAY too much for mindless jobs. Prevailing wage here in IL for sitting in a fucking truck is $40/hr+. Then the unions come after your company if you don't unionize.

If you can't live off ~$90k a year and not save or have a shit union, that's on you. These are jobs you can get out of high school.

I get the feeling that a lot of people went to college, see the government spending money elsewhere and are jealous about their situation in life. Odds are they didn't pay a dime in anything sent to Ukraine which is the ironic part. Bitching about something you didn't contribute to while your union fucking robs you.

RayAmerica says

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

I did answer you before.

I said all your questions are moot - because there was no universe where Ukraine or NATO was going to attack Russia. There was never a "threat" to Russia. It is all fucking Russian propaganda and paranoia trying to justify their monumental cock-up.

Everything Ukraine did leading up to Russia's illegal invasion (including the so called coup....) were efforts of Ukraine to get out from under the thumb of Russia. I fully support EVERY Eastern European country to be free of Russian influence and to finally get rid of the chains that were thrown on them after WWII with Communist USSR's occupation. Just like I support any nation (short of going to war or using violence) to try and get out from under the influence of Communist China.

I can see why Russia was pissed that they were losing another slave colony satrapy in Ukraine to launder money through and sell weapons (like the Bidens!) and secure fertile/productive land. But there was no military threat ever to Russia justifying this terrible war and loss of human life. It is just an old fashion land grab - nothing more.

Putin can stop the killing today if he wants. No matter how many times people want to bring up NATO, Nuland, coups, and Nazi Homo Globalists in Ukraine - Russia had no moral or legal justification for invading their sovereign neighbor.

WookieMan says

Russia is 100% backed into a corner. That's what this is. Who honestly knows who blew up Nordstream?

Everybody knows who blew up the Nordstream unless they have a brain parasite. I am so disgusted that people will believe the Neocons at this point. They always, always, always, every fucking time, tell the most outrageous lies.

They claim Russia did it, which means they did it. They always without fail accuse their enemies of what they have done. They've been doing this for 20 years. Where have you been?

richwicks says

They always, always, always, every fucking time, tell the most outrageous lies.

Is it not the most "outrageous lie" of them all to claim Ukraine is filled with Neo-Nazis threatening Russian sovereign territory - hence the need for a full blown war and hundreds of thousands of dead human beings?

socal2 says

RayAmerica says

I wonder why socal2 won't answer these simple, direct questions?

I did answer you before.

I said all your questions are moot - because there was no universe where Ukraine or NATO was going to attack Russia. There was never a "threat" to Russia. It is all fucking Russian propaganda and paranoia trying to justify their monumental cock-up.

Everything Ukraine did leading up to Russia's illegal invasion (including the so called coup....) were efforts of Ukraine to get out from under the thumb of Russia. I fully support EVERY Eastern European country to be free of Russian influence and to finally get rid of the chains that were thrown on them after WWII with Communist USSR's occupation. Just like I support any nation (short of going to war or using violence) to try and get out from under the influence of Communist China.

I can see why Russia w...

You must live in another universe if you can't see the threat that NATO expansion was to Russia. First off, the US promised them not to expand into the former Soviet bloc, then we did so and armed them and set up nice shiny rocket bases in all of them too. How do you not see Russia's POV on this?

Then we invaded Kosovo/ bombed Sebia to the stone age in 99. Also deliberately bombed the Chinese embassy there.

Then we start muddling in Ukraine in 2014 and perform a coup de tat.

All the history is there unless you want to be a NATO apologist.

RedStar says

You must live in another universe if you can't see the threat that NATO expansion was to Russia

Again - please tell me what the "threat" NATO expansion was on Russia other than keeping Russia within their internationally recognized borders?

It's not as if the USSR and Russia don't have a major history of invading and occupying their smaller and weaker neighbors.

RedStar says

All the history is there unless you want to be a NATO apologist.

NATO wants nothing to do with Russia. There's nothing there and Westerners are not going in for gas and oil because it's cold as fuck and no one likes vodka generally. They were happy buying the gas and oil from Russia or the ME.

When NATO attacks Russia let us know. This is a proxy war and the only country that's attacked anyone is Russia. No one ever attacked Russia. I don't get this point of view. If Russia want to fuel the fire bring it on. They'll lose. And I don't even care who wins. It's a waste of fucking time and life.

WookieMan says

When NATO attacks Russia let us know.

But but but........we are being told that NATO's very existence is somehow an existential threat to Russia! Therefore, Russia has every right to invade their non-NATO neighbors and get hundreds of thousands of people killed for nothing!

We are to believe that Russia is somehow safer now, after losing so many of their military in Ukraine and showing the whole world the sad state of affairs of the Russian fighting force. Russia is using prisoners for cannon fodder FFS! How much more pathetic can they be?

Russia getting so many of their young men killed for nothing is just hastening their demographic collapse.

Where is the silver lining for Russia in all of this?

How many Russians do you think have died in this war? Best count I saw was about 28,000 to ten times that number of Ukrainians. Russia isn’t losing. Not by any metric. They’ve won a fair amount of land that won’t be given up without blood and they might just finish off Ukraine

cisTits says

Shaman says

How many Russians do you think have died in this war? Best count I saw was about 28,000 to ten times that number of Ukrainians. Russia isn’t losing. Not by any metric. They’ve won a fair amount of land that won’t be given up without blood and they might just finish off Ukraine

About that in their regular army. Convicts used as cannon fodder by Wagner Group don't count.

In virtually every war - attackers have 3X the casualties as defenders. The ratio is probably worse with the incompetent Russian military, untrained convicts and trench warfare with heavy reliance on artillery.

Every day, there are new videos like this showing 100's of Russian's getting killed or grievously wounded by off the shelf drones. Imagine how many more Russians are dying from HIMARS or massive artillery strikes that can't be filmed this close and personal? How many Russians are being executed by the Russian military and Wagner for fleeing the front lines? How many are freezing to death?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmfrKLiml2Y

Is this a job for our 'Treasury Secretary?' Why is the former head of the Federal Reserve in Ukraine promising another $1.25 BILLION to this notoriously corrupt little nation? By doing so, does she get
kick back money deposited into her off shore account?

Yellen In Ukraine Announces Another $1.25 Billion

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/yellen-ukrainian-announces-another-125-billion

The New York Times reports that "The trip — during which Ms. Yellen announced the transfer of $1.25 billion in economic and budget assistance to Ukraine — is part of a concerted diplomatic push by the Biden administration to show support for Ukraine while maintaining pressure on Russia."

PS: Why is there no accountability as to where all of this money is going, and, how EXACTLY it is being used for Ukraine's 'economic and budget assistance?'

America has a $31 Trillion National Debt ... and counting, with another $150 Trillion in off budget obligations. How long can this insane, reckless spending go on before there is a collapse?

Sorry but that’s just speculation based on nothing but Hopium.
Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.
When the foreign mercenaries joined the fight to help Ukraine, they did better for a time. But the thing about mercenaries is that they tend to abandon a losing side because they’re unwilling to be martyrs.

The war in Ukraine is just more money laundering for the NWO. Putin is likely just playing his part as the villain, but he’s staying within the lines.
Honestly, he seems like a much better President than Joementia who totters between senility and bouts of angry old man irrationality. That and he’s a fucking Nazi fascist asshole who mandated that people take the poisonous vaccine which has undoubtedly caused the greatest medical disaster of our time, targeting our own younger work force. It’s shameful that he’s our President. This country is run by scammers and bastards. The world would be safer without the USA.

Shaman says

Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.

And? This is a fucking bar fight for no legitimate reason. Until one side admits they were the idiot this will drag on. Unfortunately both sides are idiots. We're just buying one idiot a couple beers or vodkas to drag the fight out. This is the war. Russia was insecure that someone was hitting on their girlfriend and it escalated to this. Now the friends of the girl are coming in with guns blazing. Or at least handing them guns. That's a real world depiction of this war that many/most people have experienced.

WookieMan says

Shaman says

Ukraine is losing quite badly. Best estimates put their dead at almost 300,000 soldiers with at least that number wounded.

And? This is a fucking bar fight for no legitimate reason. Until one side admits they were the idiot this will drag on. Unfortunately both sides are idiots. We're just buying one idiot a couple beers or vodkas to drag the fight out. This is the war. Russia was insecure that someone was hitting on their girlfriend and it escalated to this. Now the friends of the girl are coming in with guns blazing. Or at least handing them guns. That's a real world depiction of this war that many/most people have experienced.

The problem is we are edging closer and closer to a hot war.And if it comes to that, I sure as hell dont want Lets go Brandon at the wheel.

And we are literally paying billions for it.

RayAmerica says

Nomograph says

RayAmerica says

Is Ukraine worth risking World War III???

Well said, Neville.

Question: How is Ukraine, one of the most corrupt nations on earth, a threat to our national interests?

you know this got me thinking. is ukraine more corrupt than us? lately im not sure if that answer is clear. have witnessed too much corruption.

Maybe there will be a Coup in Ukraine and WW III can be avoided? We can only hope ...

Zelensky, not Putin, is increasingly threatened by the prospect of a palace coup

Engaged in a continuing Great Purge against top officials, the authoritarian Ukrainian president finds himself with fewer and fewer allies where it matters.

From the article:

He’s got the Uniparty in Washington, D.C. on his side, coupled with the international globalists in the robust World Economic Forum-attached network, along with the public-private asset management behemoth financiers in BlackRock and co, and another heavy line of credit through the IMF-World Bank group.

Domestically, it’s an entirely different story. The Ukrainian people are suffering greatly under Zelensky, with mandatory conscription and half the country’s land mass now exposed to the horrors and bombardment of an indefinite war footing. Kiev once pursued neutrality and embraced its role as a buffer state as the functioning gold standard for geopolitical relations. Now, at the insistence of the western ruling class, Ukraine has committed realpolitik seppuku and has become fiercely antagonistic to its more powerful neighbor.

More here:
https://dossier.substack.com/p/zelensky-not-putin-is-increasingly

Biden isn't capable of running in this complicated game as said above ^ The world uni-party is going to get blind sided by the chi-coms and their ilk. The US is focused on global unity lol

socal2 says

richwicks says

They always, always, always, every fucking time, tell the most outrageous lies.

Is it not the most "outrageous lie" of them all to claim Ukraine is filled with Neo-Nazis threatening Russian sovereign territory - hence the need for a full blown war and hundreds of thousands of dead human beings?

That's not why Russia is at war with Ukraine.

Russia is at war with Ukraine, because Ukraine won't remain neutral. Russia has been EXTREMELY clear on this for 8 years. Beyond that, but FAR LESS RELEVANT is that Ukraine is in civil war and it's between the Ukrainian population and the Ethnic Russian population.

FURTHERMORE, it was the West claiming that Ukraine had a Neo-Nazi problem:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/11/opinion/what-ukraines-jews-fear.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/02/world/europe/02history.html
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/02/neo-nazi-groups-recruit-britons-to-fight-in-ukraine

Those are the same assholes telling you why there's a war now and calling Putin Putler.

When I say the're FUCKING LIARS, I mean it. You'll go CRAZY listening to these assholes and believing anything they say. They'll never, ever stop lying to you.

socal2 says

Again - please tell me what the "threat" NATO expansion was on Russia other than keeping Russia within their internationally recognized borders?

The US is trying to prevent Russia from trading energy with Europe. They are trying to institute regime change within Russia.

Those threats.

WookieMan says

NATO wants nothing to do with Russia. There's nothing there and Westerners are not going in for gas and oil because it's cold as fuck and no one likes vodka generally. They were happy buying the gas and oil from Russia or the ME.

Well, what a waste it was then to blow up the Nordstream pipelines. I mean, nobody wanted it and they were all happy getting it from the Middle East...

Instead of all the bullshit back-and-forth on this thread, can we all just look at the title and agree, we don't want WWIII, and we won't support one. Fuck Ukraine, fuck Russia, fuck Europe, and fuck our government. No war!

NuttBoxer says

Instead of all the bullshit back-and-forth on this thread, can we all just look at the title and agree, we don't want WWIII, and we won't support one. Fuck Ukraine, fuck Russia, fuck Europe, and fuck our government. No war!

Agreed - that is why I keep pointing out the quickest way to end the war and avert WWIII is for Putin to end his illegal invasion and bring his troops home.

There is no conceivable "win" for Russia that doesn't involve MANY more dead on all sides and further world instability.

Whereas a Ukrainian "win" (Russia leaving and going back to status quo ante) would end the violence and world instability overnight.

richwicks says

The US is trying to prevent Russia from trading energy with Europe. They are trying to institute regime change within Russia.

Those threats.

After the pipeline explosion Secretary Blinken said it was a great opportunity for the USA to sell LNG to Germany.

Right now Russia is getting by with selling natural gas and oil to India and China, albeit at lower prices than if it was to sell to the European Union.

Russia's economy is still holding up and has not collapsed like some forecasted.

Look at natural gas prices. Propane is back to 2019 levels, for example. So Europe did not suffer too much from very high gas prices.

.

The ongoing expansion of the Ukraine conflict ...

Mass Drone Attack Unleashes Chaos, Air Raid Sirens Inside Russia

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/mass-drone-attack-unleashes-chaos-air-raid-sirens-inside-russia

socal2 says

Agreed - that is why I keep pointing out the quickest way to end the war and avert WWIII is for Putin to end his illegal invasion and bring his troops home.

There is no conceivable "win" for Russia that doesn't involve MANY more dead on all sides and further world instability.

Whereas a Ukrainian "win" (Russia leaving and going back to status quo ante) would end the violence and world instability overnight.

socal2 says

Agreed - that is why I keep pointing out the quickest way to end the war and avert WWIII is for Putin to end his illegal invasion and bring his troops home.

There is no conceivable "win" for Russia that doesn't involve MANY more dead on all sides and further world instability.

Whereas a Ukrainian "win" (Russia leaving and going back to status quo ante) would end the violence and world instability overnight.

Would be awesome if it were just that simple, but if that were true, war never would have started. If you want a more balanced view, check out antiwar.com

NuttBoxer says

Would be awesome if it were just that simple, but if that were true, war never would have started.

It is that simple.

Every other option is much more complicated and risks much more death and escalation.

Russia has to face the fact that they failed in their mission in the first month of the war by failing to topple Kiev and the central government. Russia has no hope of achieving their original goals now. Through Russia's incompetence and barbarity, they have alienated (or killed?) the remaining ethnic pro-Russian population that Putin claimed he cared so much about necessitating this useless war that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed.

So what is driving all this now - other than one man's vanity?

Fight for America's Ladies!

We've sent a never ending supply of MONEY and war material, but that's not enough. Not for Zelensky, that is. Now he's asking for American blood.

Zelensky Said What? “The U.S. Will Have to Send Their Sons and Daughters” and “They Will Be Dying”

https://redwave.press/zelensky-said-what-the-u-s-will-have-to-send-their-sons-and-daughters-and-they-will-be-dying/

socal2 says

Russia has to face the fact that they failed in their mission in the first month of the war by failing to topple Kiev and the central government. Russia has no hope of achieving their original goals now. Through Russia's incompetence and barbarity, they have alienated (or killed?) the remaining ethnic pro-Russian population that Putin claimed he cared so much about necessitating this useless war that has gotten hundreds of thousands of people killed.

Pretty good summary. I'm not pro either nation. Frankly it seems like someone gave toddlers bottles of vodka in the sand box. Everyone's hands are dirty on this war. It's 100% unnecessary. And before idiots start bringing up our wars, this Ukraine/Russia conflict is exponentially worse on an exponential scale because it's run by idiots.

We lost less people in Afghanistan than Chicago over the same period. I suppose it was cheaper for the domestic killing versus Afghanistan, but this Russia/Ukraine war is awful for both sides. Europeans are pussies (NATO). I don't think our government has the gumption to throw our citizens at it, just weapons to Ukrainians. This escalates and expands to the Polish border though, Russia gets smoked and they know it. There's no sense in any of it.

The only net positive is I'm sure we're continuing to make weapons and people have jobs. And our young adults aren't dying in a drunken war so far. No one has been a true aggressor to Russia in a while. It's all rhetoric. They have oil and gas they can sell and Europe or the US seemingly have ZERO intentions of invading/attacking Russia. Basically this is stupid.

RayAmerica says

We've sent a never ending supply of MONEY and war material, but that's not enough. Not for Zelensky, that is. Now he's asking for American blood.

Zelensky Said What? “The U.S. Will Have to Send Their Sons and Daughters” and “They Will Be Dying”

https://redwave.press/zelensky-said-what-the-u-s-will-have-to-send-their-sons-and-daughters-and-they-will-be-dying/

If you watch his entire statement, he is clearly talking about if Russia wins in Ukraine and then starts attacking neighboring NATO countries - then the US would have an obligation to send troops to protect NATO countries.

Step by step, the escalation continues ...

Cross-Border 'Terror Attack' On Russia Involved Dozens Of Armed (Ukrainian) Saboteurs Attacking Villages

Russian presidency spokesman Spokesman Dmitry Peskov said militants entered the Bryansk Oblast in Western Russia and attacked villages there, resulting in the death of one civilian and another wounded. "This is an attack by terrorists," Peskov said.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/cross-border-terror-attack-russia-involved-dozens-armed-saboteurs-attacking-villages

PS: The day is coming when Ukraine uses one of its American supplied weapons against Russian civilians, which could conceivably lead to retaliatory attacks upon American targets. We are witnessing the process of incrementalism that leads to the start of major wars.

Mark this day down in history. An NBC reporter actually states the truth regarding Zelensky's insane stated goal to attack Crimea:

NBC Reporter Goes To Crimea, Shocks Viewers By Telling The Truth (video)

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/msnbc-reporter-goes-crimea-shocks-viewers-telling-truth