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17
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 12:57pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 12:57pm
Patrick says
Yep. Only my first car and first house were bought with debt. I paid of that first house as soon as I could (I was single with rent paying roommates, plus I made it a rental when I moved out). My next two residence houses were paid for in cash. I had no inherences and no rich wife, but by avoiding consumer debt I now have a very upscale house and well over $1 million in the bank. Granted, I am not in California, and I did use debt to buy rental properties over the last 3 decades. Even so, I paid off those rental homes as well (again, not California, where in the1990s I was able to pay low hundreds to buy a newer 3bed 2.5 bath 2 car detached with a 1/2-acre yard home.
Someone on this site years ago said "The important thing is that interest flows towards you rather than away from you."
Yep. Only my first car and first house were bought with debt. I paid of that first house as soon as I could (I was single with rent paying roommates, plus I made it a rental when I moved out). My next two residence houses were paid for in cash. I had no inherences and no rich wife, but by avoiding consumer debt I now have a very upscale house and well over $1 million in the bank. Granted, I am not in California, and I did use debt to buy rental properties over the last 3 decades. Even so, I paid off those rental homes as well (again, not California, where in the1990s I was able to pay low hundreds to buy a newer 3bed 2.5 bath 2 car detached with a 1/2-acre yard home.
18
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 6, 1:09pm
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 6, 1:09pm
WookieMan says
What I'm referring to is without a central bank, you can't do any of that corrupt shit. Central banks value leveraging, lying and cheating, so that's what they reward. Without them people would be required to earn their living by hard work, good ideas, and sound judgement.
And most taxes didn't exist until after our current central bank was formed in 1913. You want real tax free, try no central bank. No debtors prison? Try getting charged for a crime and not being able to pay bail. Try getting traffic tickets you can't afford to pay. Jails aren't full of rich people.
The debt that exists via central banking is used to enslave us. They steal the most valuable thing we have, our time, our life.
Not really. We don't have debtor prison. You don't have to pay it. Just don't bite off more than you can chew. Generally tax free too and you can pay yourself. Not a knock on you or Patrick, but I can make hundreds of thousands a year on debt. Stresses me out and we do fine otherwise.
Buy a value add property and cash out refi. You could pay yourself tax free $200k no problem and someone else pays for it. You can do this with business too. Play the game, don't hate it. I regret not learning earlier. No one teaches it. I could easily have $20-30M right now. Wife and I fucked up. We were scared of debt.
Fact is you will lose at some point. No one makes 100% the right decision. If you want to be truly wealthy you NEED debt.
What I'm referring to is without a central bank, you can't do any of that corrupt shit. Central banks value leveraging, lying and cheating, so that's what they reward. Without them people would be required to earn their living by hard work, good ideas, and sound judgement.
And most taxes didn't exist until after our current central bank was formed in 1913. You want real tax free, try no central bank. No debtors prison? Try getting charged for a crime and not being able to pay bail. Try getting traffic tickets you can't afford to pay. Jails aren't full of rich people.
The debt that exists via central banking is used to enslave us. They steal the most valuable thing we have, our time, our life.
19
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 3:21pm
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 3:21pm
WookieMan says
Dude, you don't actually PRODUCE anything. You're a parasite. That will eventually destroy the nation, because NOBODY will produce anything.
That's the "game" the game is called "corruption". You are the definition of a useless eater. What do you produce? What have you EVER produced?
Buy a value add property and cash out refi. You could pay yourself tax free $200k no problem and someone else pays for it. You can do this with business too. Play the game, don't hate it.
Dude, you don't actually PRODUCE anything. You're a parasite. That will eventually destroy the nation, because NOBODY will produce anything.
That's the "game" the game is called "corruption". You are the definition of a useless eater. What do you produce? What have you EVER produced?
20
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 4:02pm
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 4:02pm
richwicks says
A new building dude. Pay tradesmen that then buy groceries and goods and keep other people employed that then buy more goods. They then build a house or buy a house and the cycle continues.
I sometimes think you're being obtuse on purpose. You tech guys have produced nothing but shit that has corrupted humanity. You know it too. I've produced things that put a roof over peoples heads. What you do benefits no one besides the people borrowing debt and then end up sitting on their ass like you do. You're their bitch. This is fact. I could do alllllll the same things now that you could have done 40-50 years ago without tech. When you were a baby and I wasn't even born.
I've produced more and contributed more. That's not even debatable.
Dude, you don't actually PRODUCE anything. You're a parasite. That will eventually destroy the nation, because NOBODY will produce anything.
A new building dude. Pay tradesmen that then buy groceries and goods and keep other people employed that then buy more goods. They then build a house or buy a house and the cycle continues.
I sometimes think you're being obtuse on purpose. You tech guys have produced nothing but shit that has corrupted humanity. You know it too. I've produced things that put a roof over peoples heads. What you do benefits no one besides the people borrowing debt and then end up sitting on their ass like you do. You're their bitch. This is fact. I could do alllllll the same things now that you could have done 40-50 years ago without tech. When you were a baby and I wasn't even born.
I've produced more and contributed more. That's not even debatable.
21
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 4:51pm
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 4:51pm
WookieMan says
All you're doing is driving up the cost for everybody else.
Look, I understand the system, I accept it for what it is, but it's going to destroy the country in time. It used to be that land and stock speculation was literally illegal. That was 200 years ago, but can't you see what kind of development that has occured in our civilization just because we got rid of the worst parasites for just 200 years?
You personally have more access to information and travel than the richest man in the world did in 1800. You might live in a smaller home, but you don't have to have servants to feed and groom the horses, to maintain your buggy, to keep stoking the fire in the middle of the night, to pump water for you newly invented toilet, to light your gas lamps...
The biggest problem we have today, is a parasite class. They don't actually produce anything. My father owned a building supply business when I was a kid. When I see the shitboxes that are being erected where I live, it's just horrible to see, because I know they won't last 30 years years, much less 100 years. Everything is a temporary shelter now.
There's no reason for it, it's fairly trivial to make a home (at greater cost of course) that has very low maintenance that will last 100 years without any real work at all. You see this all over Europe, and we're building EVERYTHING to be disposable. What a fucking waste of resources. We're still building with WOOD. A flammable material that can be eaten by bugs that needs continual maintenance to prevent degregation.
Think about it, everything around you will be replaced and gone in less than 100 years, probably 50. This is just stupidity. You're not even allowed to build actually permanent structures. We're in Brave New World now in that Consumption is King. They even said it continually in the 1980's, that was "growth" - it's just another word for "waste". The GDP is just a measure of how much CHURN there is in the economy. We are constantly encouraged just to produce landfill and any attempt to stop that, well, meet regulations.
A new building dude. Pay tradesmen that then buy groceries and goods and keep other people employed that then buy more goods. They then build a house or buy a house and the cycle continues.
All you're doing is driving up the cost for everybody else.
Look, I understand the system, I accept it for what it is, but it's going to destroy the country in time. It used to be that land and stock speculation was literally illegal. That was 200 years ago, but can't you see what kind of development that has occured in our civilization just because we got rid of the worst parasites for just 200 years?
You personally have more access to information and travel than the richest man in the world did in 1800. You might live in a smaller home, but you don't have to have servants to feed and groom the horses, to maintain your buggy, to keep stoking the fire in the middle of the night, to pump water for you newly invented toilet, to light your gas lamps...
The biggest problem we have today, is a parasite class. They don't actually produce anything. My father owned a building supply business when I was a kid. When I see the shitboxes that are being erected where I live, it's just horrible to see, because I know they won't last 30 years years, much less 100 years. Everything is a temporary shelter now.
There's no reason for it, it's fairly trivial to make a home (at greater cost of course) that has very low maintenance that will last 100 years without any real work at all. You see this all over Europe, and we're building EVERYTHING to be disposable. What a fucking waste of resources. We're still building with WOOD. A flammable material that can be eaten by bugs that needs continual maintenance to prevent degregation.
Think about it, everything around you will be replaced and gone in less than 100 years, probably 50. This is just stupidity. You're not even allowed to build actually permanent structures. We're in Brave New World now in that Consumption is King. They even said it continually in the 1980's, that was "growth" - it's just another word for "waste". The GDP is just a measure of how much CHURN there is in the economy. We are constantly encouraged just to produce landfill and any attempt to stop that, well, meet regulations.
22
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 6:12pm
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 6:12pm
richwicks says
That's the buyers choice. I'm building a brick shit house. I've been inside probably 5,000 properties in my lifetime. I know construction. I'm building a $600k house in an area where the median is maybe $250k. Not logical. But I know what the fuck I'm doing and have the funds to back it up.
Let me know if you think this guy is an idiot??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiBUh5v0icM
I'm this guy on a small scale. Go down the rabbit hole and you'll realize how dumb you are. You don't know everything. You revert to the same points on 1 or 2 topics. Government bad and you don't know what I know and I'm smarter.... your'e not.
This is just stupidity. You're not even allowed to build actually permanent structures.
That's the buyers choice. I'm building a brick shit house. I've been inside probably 5,000 properties in my lifetime. I know construction. I'm building a $600k house in an area where the median is maybe $250k. Not logical. But I know what the fuck I'm doing and have the funds to back it up.
Let me know if you think this guy is an idiot??? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiBUh5v0icM
I'm this guy on a small scale. Go down the rabbit hole and you'll realize how dumb you are. You don't know everything. You revert to the same points on 1 or 2 topics. Government bad and you don't know what I know and I'm smarter.... your'e not.
23
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:15pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:15pm
richwicks says
Yes, the poured houses like they have in Omaha that are actually tornado proof. The whole house including the gables is concrete. These houses can be sided with brick or any other conventional siding so they look like a conventional home. One builder in Omaha made a whole neighborhood of the homes.
it's fairly trivial to make a home (at greater cost of course) that has very low maintenance that will last 100 years
Yes, the poured houses like they have in Omaha that are actually tornado proof. The whole house including the gables is concrete. These houses can be sided with brick or any other conventional siding so they look like a conventional home. One builder in Omaha made a whole neighborhood of the homes.
24
RC2006
2023 Mar 6, 6:17pm
RC2006
2023 Mar 6, 6:17pm
HeadSet says
This is how I always thought houses should be build in tornado and hurricane areas.
richwicks says
it's fairly trivial to make a home (at greater cost of course) that has very low maintenance that will last 100 years
Yes, the poured houses like they have in Omaha that are actually tornado proof. The whole house including the gables is concrete. These houses can be sided with brick or any other conventional siding so they look like a conventional home. One builder in Omaha made a whole neighborhood of the homes.
This is how I always thought houses should be build in tornado and hurricane areas.
25
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:21pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:21pm
richwicks says
I would not dis wood, however. I have seen plenty of homes build in the 50s thru 70s that are wood framed that have not rotted and will be around quite a while. Around here, we have plenty of late 1700 and 1800 homes (like those with "heart of pine" floors) that still have the original bones, fireplaces, etc.
We're still building with WOOD.
I would not dis wood, however. I have seen plenty of homes build in the 50s thru 70s that are wood framed that have not rotted and will be around quite a while. Around here, we have plenty of late 1700 and 1800 homes (like those with "heart of pine" floors) that still have the original bones, fireplaces, etc.
26
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:24pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:24pm
RC2006 says
And in any fire prone area. If I was King and Tyrant of California, I would mandate that all homes build in those ecological fire prone areas must be fully poured with steel roofs and cement shingle or brick siding.
This is how I always thought houses should be build in tornado and hurricane areas.
And in any fire prone area. If I was King and Tyrant of California, I would mandate that all homes build in those ecological fire prone areas must be fully poured with steel roofs and cement shingle or brick siding.
27
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 6:40pm
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 6:40pm
WookieMan says
I cannot control your impressions of me, and I don't care what you think of me, or what you believe my mental processes are.
I'm chiefly interested in government corruption and propaganda as a hobby. I find it fascinating that no matter how obvious it is, only a small percentage will acknowledge it. I used to think it was because people were afraid to acknowledge it, but they are genuinely unaware of it. It took a forced injection for an obvious non-pandemic event to finally drill that home on me. I really am stunned. All these people I once respected just turn out to be idiot, gullible, savants.
I don't know how people can function with this level of cognitive dissonance. I may be very well wrong, but I'm not filled with inconsistencies in my thinking.
I'm this guy on a small scale. Go down the rabbit hole and you'll realize how dumb you are. You don't know everything. You revert to the same points on 1 or 2 topics. Government bad and you don't know what I know and I'm smarter.... your'e not.
I cannot control your impressions of me, and I don't care what you think of me, or what you believe my mental processes are.
I'm chiefly interested in government corruption and propaganda as a hobby. I find it fascinating that no matter how obvious it is, only a small percentage will acknowledge it. I used to think it was because people were afraid to acknowledge it, but they are genuinely unaware of it. It took a forced injection for an obvious non-pandemic event to finally drill that home on me. I really am stunned. All these people I once respected just turn out to be idiot, gullible, savants.
I don't know how people can function with this level of cognitive dissonance. I may be very well wrong, but I'm not filled with inconsistencies in my thinking.
28
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:59pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 6, 6:59pm
richwicks says
They are dependent on others for support.
I don't know how people can function with this level of cognitive dissonance.
They are dependent on others for support.
29
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 8:44pm
WookieMan
2023 Mar 6, 8:44pm
richwicks says
You keep responding, so false, you do care.
richwicks says
I didn't get the vaccine. So I'm not gullible.
richwicks says
You can't have inconsistencies when you repeat the same drivel in every comment man. We could be talking about hot dogs and you'd say government is bad, Iraq, WMD's.... Your hobby just shows laziness in your comments. Maybe get another hobby? Just a thought.
and I don't care what you think of me
You keep responding, so false, you do care.
richwicks says
It took a forced injection for an obvious non-pandemic event to finally drill that home on me. I really am stunned. All these people I once respected just turn out to be idiot, gullible, savants.
I didn't get the vaccine. So I'm not gullible.
richwicks says
I may be very well wrong, but I'm not filled with inconsistencies in my thinking.
You can't have inconsistencies when you repeat the same drivel in every comment man. We could be talking about hot dogs and you'd say government is bad, Iraq, WMD's.... Your hobby just shows laziness in your comments. Maybe get another hobby? Just a thought.
30
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 9:05pm
richwicks
2023 Mar 6, 9:05pm
WookieMan says
Look, if I'm wrong, point it out.
I'm interested when I'm wrong, I want to know when I'm wrong.
Again, I have to respect you to be insulted by you, so you can't insult me. You need to learn to think in the same way.
I think you're a bad person, who has found joy in understanding how to be useless, and a parasite on the public who actually ARE productive and keep society running and functional despite the parasites. That's what I think. Do you care I think this? Why? Well, if you ARE bothered by this opinion, it's because part of you think this is correct.
I grew up among useful, productive, people. Farmers everywhere, the bedrock of civilization, the MOST IMPORTANT people of our civilization. I thought engineering might be that, but look how it's been perverted? There CAN be use in it, but I'm in fucking Silly Con Valley, this is just a massive spy operation. You'd think people would be upset that we have massive corporations imposing censorship, disseminating propaganda, lying to the public, and misinforming them.
Nope!
I don't even know if most people are human in the way I think a human being is. I'm in a minority. Maybe all of you are human, and I'm not. Maybe I'm some sort of throwback animal that has vestigial instincts of cooperation within a society. Well if that's the case, we're dying out. Best of luck when we're all dead.
You can't have inconsistencies when you repeat the same drivel in every comment man. We could be talking about hot dogs and you'd say government is bad, Iraq, WMD's.... Your hobby just shows laziness in your comments. Maybe get another hobby? Just a thought.
Look, if I'm wrong, point it out.
I'm interested when I'm wrong, I want to know when I'm wrong.
Again, I have to respect you to be insulted by you, so you can't insult me. You need to learn to think in the same way.
I think you're a bad person, who has found joy in understanding how to be useless, and a parasite on the public who actually ARE productive and keep society running and functional despite the parasites. That's what I think. Do you care I think this? Why? Well, if you ARE bothered by this opinion, it's because part of you think this is correct.
I grew up among useful, productive, people. Farmers everywhere, the bedrock of civilization, the MOST IMPORTANT people of our civilization. I thought engineering might be that, but look how it's been perverted? There CAN be use in it, but I'm in fucking Silly Con Valley, this is just a massive spy operation. You'd think people would be upset that we have massive corporations imposing censorship, disseminating propaganda, lying to the public, and misinforming them.
Nope!
I don't even know if most people are human in the way I think a human being is. I'm in a minority. Maybe all of you are human, and I'm not. Maybe I'm some sort of throwback animal that has vestigial instincts of cooperation within a society. Well if that's the case, we're dying out. Best of luck when we're all dead.
31
AD
2023 Mar 6, 9:30pm
AD
2023 Mar 6, 9:30pm
HeadSet says
yeah i know someone who owns in a mountain town within central colorado and they have hardie board (cement panels) for siding and a metal roof ... they built their home in 1999 ...
my grandparents bought a house in the 1950's that was built in 1910's and is wood frame... that home is still holding up fine and passed the home inspection when it was sold in 2018 ...
.
And in any fire prone area. If I was King and Tyrant of California, I would mandate that all homes build in those ecological fire prone areas must be fully poured with steel roofs and cement shingle or brick siding.
yeah i know someone who owns in a mountain town within central colorado and they have hardie board (cement panels) for siding and a metal roof ... they built their home in 1999 ...
my grandparents bought a house in the 1950's that was built in 1910's and is wood frame... that home is still holding up fine and passed the home inspection when it was sold in 2018 ...
.
32
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 12:26am
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 12:26am
richwicks says
You may not use debt. Fine. Take it away... You and 5B people are dead. We didn't get to this place without debt. If you think life is bad I can respect that. I think there are a lot of shit humans. I also don't want to see bodies piled in the streets because we upended something that works.
Most poor people are poor because of government support and laziness. No point in getting out of that position. Give me an above average life globally where I can sit on my ass I'd take it. I know that's the fall back. I don't want that though. Debt isn't the problem. It's people.
I'm not religious, but respect it. Just have some will and some fucking morals. We've lost that. Not saying you're immoral, but most are. Humans have seemingly lost the will to live in a civilized society. No one contributes. The scum of the earth run for elected office in many places (not me :) People just don't give a shit anymore and you seem like a person that has completely given up. That solves nothing. Do something instead of bitch.
I'm interested when I'm wrong, I want to know when I'm wrong.
You may not use debt. Fine. Take it away... You and 5B people are dead. We didn't get to this place without debt. If you think life is bad I can respect that. I think there are a lot of shit humans. I also don't want to see bodies piled in the streets because we upended something that works.
Most poor people are poor because of government support and laziness. No point in getting out of that position. Give me an above average life globally where I can sit on my ass I'd take it. I know that's the fall back. I don't want that though. Debt isn't the problem. It's people.
I'm not religious, but respect it. Just have some will and some fucking morals. We've lost that. Not saying you're immoral, but most are. Humans have seemingly lost the will to live in a civilized society. No one contributes. The scum of the earth run for elected office in many places (not me :) People just don't give a shit anymore and you seem like a person that has completely given up. That solves nothing. Do something instead of bitch.
33
AD
2023 Mar 7, 12:54am
AD
2023 Mar 7, 12:54am
richwicks says
When did you move to Silicon Valley and when did you start to notice it going bad ? Please elaborate more.
.
I grew up among useful, productive, people. Farmers everywhere, the bedrock of civilization, the MOST IMPORTANT people of our civilization. I thought engineering might be that, but look how it's been perverted? There CAN be use in it, but I'm in fucking Silly Con Valley, this is just a massive spy operation. You'd think people would be upset that we have massive corporations imposing censorship, disseminating propaganda, lying to the public, and misinforming them.
When did you move to Silicon Valley and when did you start to notice it going bad ? Please elaborate more.
.
34
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 6:01am
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 6:01am
ad says
Ditto.
Add on, why do you still live there? I think you're surrounding yourself with shitty people and that jades your reality of what the rest of the country is actually like. You live in a far left place. I did in Chicago. It was shitty. I moved and life has only been better. Our foreign policy has nothing to do with me. We police the earth as a country and deaths from war have fallen off a cliff until this Russia/Ukraine shit.
I made a mistake driving my kids to the wrong school for basketball practice because my youngest practices at a different school. It's karma. I got them to practice and the school was locked and the parents were all sitting out so they technically weren't late. I think you need to cheer up a bit. There are issues for sure, but repeating the same things that barely influence you is not productive. Or as I've said, run for office.
Look at Barack Obama. Love or hate him it's not impossible to get to the highest position in the world in a short amount of time. Heck even Trump. No political acumen and he became POTUS. And if you've given up on the US, move to a better country.
When did you move to Silicon Valley and when did you start to notice it going bad ? Please elaborate more.
Ditto.
Add on, why do you still live there? I think you're surrounding yourself with shitty people and that jades your reality of what the rest of the country is actually like. You live in a far left place. I did in Chicago. It was shitty. I moved and life has only been better. Our foreign policy has nothing to do with me. We police the earth as a country and deaths from war have fallen off a cliff until this Russia/Ukraine shit.
I made a mistake driving my kids to the wrong school for basketball practice because my youngest practices at a different school. It's karma. I got them to practice and the school was locked and the parents were all sitting out so they technically weren't late. I think you need to cheer up a bit. There are issues for sure, but repeating the same things that barely influence you is not productive. Or as I've said, run for office.
Look at Barack Obama. Love or hate him it's not impossible to get to the highest position in the world in a short amount of time. Heck even Trump. No political acumen and he became POTUS. And if you've given up on the US, move to a better country.
35
GreaterNYCDude
2023 Mar 7, 6:30am
Patrick says
That's kind of where I'm at. The extra $$ I'm paying towards the mortgage could I invest it.. of course.
Conversley, could I leverage debt to my advantage? Of course. But leverage works both ways.
I've run the math and the difference between paying the minimum on my loans and investing it today, vs paying down the debt now and then investing significantly more money later once the house is paid off. In some scenarios I win, others I loose, some are a push. It depends on what the broader economy does over the next 5 to 10 years. 2022 was meh. 2023 is looking to be about the same. I'd tue "everything bubble" ever pops, or even continues to deflate, then at some point it will make sense to jump in and ride the next wWA.
And as I say. I'm making out retirement accounts already. This is what do do with my "free" cash flow. Invest it or pay down the mortgage. It's a true first world problem and I'm blessed to be in such a strong position financially.
Reading the comments, some love debt as a tool to create wealth (the old adage it takes money to make money) other stay away from it (neither a borrower or a lender be)
There is also a difference between "good debt" and "bad debt" but that's a whol different debate.
I know the math sometimes works for having debt, but I have a visceral aversion to paying any interest, ever.
That's kind of where I'm at. The extra $$ I'm paying towards the mortgage could I invest it.. of course.
Conversley, could I leverage debt to my advantage? Of course. But leverage works both ways.
I've run the math and the difference between paying the minimum on my loans and investing it today, vs paying down the debt now and then investing significantly more money later once the house is paid off. In some scenarios I win, others I loose, some are a push. It depends on what the broader economy does over the next 5 to 10 years. 2022 was meh. 2023 is looking to be about the same. I'd tue "everything bubble" ever pops, or even continues to deflate, then at some point it will make sense to jump in and ride the next wWA.
And as I say. I'm making out retirement accounts already. This is what do do with my "free" cash flow. Invest it or pay down the mortgage. It's a true first world problem and I'm blessed to be in such a strong position financially.
Reading the comments, some love debt as a tool to create wealth (the old adage it takes money to make money) other stay away from it (neither a borrower or a lender be)
There is also a difference between "good debt" and "bad debt" but that's a whol different debate.
36
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 9:19am
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 9:19am
GreaterNYCDude says
It's not a debate though. Think of it this way. You have a drill. You either know how to use it or not. There are are flat head, phillips, square, regular drill bits, etc. Some people just don't know how to use the damn thing. Is that the drills problem?
People can't blame debt if they don't know how to use it. As I said, 80% of us are dead without debt. Back to the early 1800's. I'll take the debt 10 out of 10 times. Unless you fraudulently obtained said debt you don't have to pay it either and won't go to jail.
There is also a difference between "good debt" and "bad debt" but that's a whol different debate.
It's not a debate though. Think of it this way. You have a drill. You either know how to use it or not. There are are flat head, phillips, square, regular drill bits, etc. Some people just don't know how to use the damn thing. Is that the drills problem?
People can't blame debt if they don't know how to use it. As I said, 80% of us are dead without debt. Back to the early 1800's. I'll take the debt 10 out of 10 times. Unless you fraudulently obtained said debt you don't have to pay it either and won't go to jail.
37
GreaterNYCDude
2023 Mar 7, 11:42am
The problem is lack of training. Most in this country are financially illiterate. Schools don't even teach the basics anymore (balancing a checkbook, interst vs. principal, making a budget, etc)
38
Eric Holder
2023 Mar 7, 11:51am
Eric Holder
2023 Mar 7, 11:51am
GreaterNYCDude says
It's so easy to obtain this information ignorance is not an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science either.
The problem is lack of training. Most in this country are financially illiterate. Schools don't even teach the basics anymore (balancing a checkbook, interst vs. principal, making a budget, etc)
It's so easy to obtain this information ignorance is not an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science either.
39
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 7, 4:52pm
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 7, 4:52pm
Eric Holder says
The lingo is intentionally hard to understand because the system relies on deception, greed, and thievery. So agreed, bullshit != rocket science.
It's so easy to obtain this information ignorance is not an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science either.
The lingo is intentionally hard to understand because the system relies on deception, greed, and thievery. So agreed, bullshit != rocket science.
40
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 5:11pm
WookieMan
2023 Mar 7, 5:11pm
Eric Holder says
I've told the story before. We bought our house $85k cash. We didn't have it. Not even close at the time. You figure it out. Margin loan from the MIL on her stock and we bought it cash. Refi'd and paid her back and paid $180/mo interest only for 12 months to own the home...
None of it is rocket science. You just were never taught about it in high schools which is probably 50% at best of educated people. 25% got a college degree of substance or finished. Education does not equal intelligence. The more educated, I've found them to be dumber overall. My uncle can't read and probably has $100M in his bank account/investments. Has more land than extremely famous people as neighbors in Desert Mountain in Scottsdale.
Debt and leverage is how you get out of a shit hole life. 100%. You might fuck up. Guess what. You don't have to pay it. That's the beauty of debt. It's tax free too. Get equity in a couple buildings and pay yourself $200k tax free in a cash out refi. It is basic math. Driving a car is probably riskier than debt.
It's so easy to obtain this information ignorance is not an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science either.
I've told the story before. We bought our house $85k cash. We didn't have it. Not even close at the time. You figure it out. Margin loan from the MIL on her stock and we bought it cash. Refi'd and paid her back and paid $180/mo interest only for 12 months to own the home...
None of it is rocket science. You just were never taught about it in high schools which is probably 50% at best of educated people. 25% got a college degree of substance or finished. Education does not equal intelligence. The more educated, I've found them to be dumber overall. My uncle can't read and probably has $100M in his bank account/investments. Has more land than extremely famous people as neighbors in Desert Mountain in Scottsdale.
Debt and leverage is how you get out of a shit hole life. 100%. You might fuck up. Guess what. You don't have to pay it. That's the beauty of debt. It's tax free too. Get equity in a couple buildings and pay yourself $200k tax free in a cash out refi. It is basic math. Driving a car is probably riskier than debt.
41
HeadSet
2023 Mar 7, 5:11pm
HeadSet
2023 Mar 7, 5:11pm
GreaterNYCDude says
I have found that financial illiteracy is not the problem. The issue is the borrower does not care as long as he can get it now. Anyone can multiply the monthly payment amount on a car by the number of payments and see the total cost. The only concern the joker has with a 72 month loan is whether he can be approved for the monthly payment.
Most in this country are financially illiterate.
I have found that financial illiteracy is not the problem. The issue is the borrower does not care as long as he can get it now. Anyone can multiply the monthly payment amount on a car by the number of payments and see the total cost. The only concern the joker has with a 72 month loan is whether he can be approved for the monthly payment.
42
EBGuy
2023 Mar 7, 5:45pm
ECBB said: With high yield savings paying about 4% right now, that's a 1% spread relative to my 3% mortgage.
And that 4% interest income on savings will be taxed at 24% (federal income tax rate) if you and your wife make more than $90k, so it's essentially a wash right now. I say more cash on hand or dollar cost average into an index fund (which will produce some qualified dividends, but most gains will be LTC).
And that 4% interest income on savings will be taxed at 24% (federal income tax rate) if you and your wife make more than $90k, so it's essentially a wash right now. I say more cash on hand or dollar cost average into an index fund (which will produce some qualified dividends, but most gains will be LTC).
43
Bd6r
2023 Mar 7, 8:55pm
Bd6r
2023 Mar 7, 8:55pm
I borrowed 500K at 2.1 pct interest in September 2021 to buy a farm. Due to Bidenflation I am paying it back as slow as possible.
44
Eric Holder
2023 Mar 8, 3:38pm
Eric Holder
2023 Mar 8, 3:38pm
NuttBoxer says
Do you really-really find the lingo unsurmountable?
Eric Holder says
It's so easy to obtain this information ignorance is not an excuse. It's not exactly rocket science either.
The lingo is intentionally hard to understand because the system relies on deception, greed, and thievery. So agreed, bullshit != rocket science.
Do you really-really find the lingo unsurmountable?
45
KgK one
2023 Mar 8, 4:19pm
Rates are high , what assets to buy now. Nothing is coming down. Hosing is coming down few % but barely.
CD n bonds are only choice
CD n bonds are only choice
46
Patrick
2023 Mar 8, 4:22pm
Patrick
2023 Mar 8, 4:22pm
Bd6r says
@Bd6r Damn, if you could borrow at 2.1% and buy US Treasuries at 4.5%, you'd have a perpetual money machine.
I borrowed 500K at 2.1 pct interest in September 2021 to buy a farm. Due to Bidenflation I am paying it back as slow as possible.
@Bd6r Damn, if you could borrow at 2.1% and buy US Treasuries at 4.5%, you'd have a perpetual money machine.
47
GNL
2023 Mar 8, 5:07pm
GNL
2023 Mar 8, 5:07pm
richwicks says
@richwicks @wookieman
A lot of good points are made in this comment. Richwicks is correct in that the system is flawed. Either you use debt to control others or you are controlled by debt. I believe this is the system as it is designed. Default is baked into the cake. How many times has the US defaulted? But then the parasite class continues to get bailouts. This time around (covid) everyone got bailed out. This is total fraud.
WookieMan says
A new building dude. Pay tradesmen that then buy groceries and goods and keep other people employed that then buy more goods. They then build a house or buy a house and the cycle continues.
All you're doing is driving up the cost for everybody else.
Look, I understand the system, I accept it for what it is, but it's going to destroy the country in time. It used to be that land and stock speculation was literally illegal. That was 200 years ago, but can't you see what kind of development that has occured in our civilization just because we got rid of the worst parasites for just 200 years?
You personally have more access to information and travel than the richest man in the world did in 1800. You might live in a smaller home, but you don't have to have servants to feed and groom the horses, to maintain your buggy, to keep stoking the fire in...
@richwicks @wookieman
A lot of good points are made in this comment. Richwicks is correct in that the system is flawed. Either you use debt to control others or you are controlled by debt. I believe this is the system as it is designed. Default is baked into the cake. How many times has the US defaulted? But then the parasite class continues to get bailouts. This time around (covid) everyone got bailed out. This is total fraud.
48
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 8, 5:50pm
NuttBoxer
2023 Mar 8, 5:50pm
Eric Holder says
If you get deep into "investment" advise, it can sound confusing pretty quickly. But if you remember it's all about making money by doing nothing, leveraging out the ass, and taking advantage of others, the truth tends to cut through the jargon.
Do you really-really find the lingo unsurmountable?
If you get deep into "investment" advise, it can sound confusing pretty quickly. But if you remember it's all about making money by doing nothing, leveraging out the ass, and taking advantage of others, the truth tends to cut through the jargon.
49
RWSGFY
2023 Mar 8, 6:41pm
RWSGFY
2023 Mar 8, 6:41pm
Patrick says
You'll need a time machine to do that.
Bd6r says
I borrowed 500K at 2.1 pct interest in September 2021 to buy a farm. Due to Bidenflation I am paying it back as slow as possible.
Bd6r Damn, if you could borrow at 2.1% and buy US Treasuries at 4.5%, you'd have a perpetual money machine.
You'll need a time machine to do that.
50
RWSGFY
2023 Mar 8, 6:43pm
RWSGFY
2023 Mar 8, 6:43pm
NuttBoxer says
So? If you get into any new to you area it might sound very confusing quickly. But is it really harder to understand than Physics or Calculus? No, it's much simpler.
Eric Holder says
Do you really-really find the lingo unsurmountable?
If you get deep into "investment" advise, it can sound confusing pretty quickly.
So? If you get into any new to you area it might sound very confusing quickly. But is it really harder to understand than Physics or Calculus? No, it's much simpler.
51
WookieMan
2023 Mar 8, 9:36pm
WookieMan
2023 Mar 8, 9:36pm
GNL says
You make a valid point, but everything is flawed. If it wasn't you should just be able to buy one car when you're 16 and drive it until you're 95. Possible, but not feasible.
Debt ain't perfect for sure. But nothing is. If I have gold or silver, they're still gonna give me paper money. Guess what, shit hits the fan your physical gold/silver is gone. There's no perfect system. My buddy basically built the most recent JP Morgan investing site as the lead. One of the worlds leading investment banks had to rebuild something that wasn't working.
The way I look at debt is like a product. It's bread, milk, cheese, etc. If you have lactose issues don't eat/drink the milk or cheese. Stick to bread. Debt is milk/cheese for some people. And that's okay. If I call someone a bad person or pussy because they can't eat cheese, that's pure intellectual laziness. I'd say dude, that sucks I love cheese. I can handle cheese (DEBT) and I'm sorry you can't. I'm sure you like other foods though?
That's my line of thought. Some people simply cannot handle debt. That's fine. To say it's bad is absolutely wrong. We've emailed privately GNL You literally don't have a job without other people using debt. I wouldn't have either for 15 years. Rich doesn't have a job (Edit, I believe he does, that came across bad). Hence why I say we'd all be dead. It's all a ponzi scheme, but as long as incomes grow to some extent it's fine. So you get a Chevy instead of a Mercedes. You buy generic at the grocery store. The alternative without debt is literally death. Every working person on this forum is paid with debt....
A lot of good points are made in this comment. Richwicks is correct in that the system is flawed. Either you use debt to control others or you are controlled by debt. I believe this is the system as it is designed. Default is baked into the cake. How many times has the US defaulted? But then the parasite class continues to get bailouts. This time around (covid) everyone got bailed out. This is total fraud.
You make a valid point, but everything is flawed. If it wasn't you should just be able to buy one car when you're 16 and drive it until you're 95. Possible, but not feasible.
Debt ain't perfect for sure. But nothing is. If I have gold or silver, they're still gonna give me paper money. Guess what, shit hits the fan your physical gold/silver is gone. There's no perfect system. My buddy basically built the most recent JP Morgan investing site as the lead. One of the worlds leading investment banks had to rebuild something that wasn't working.
The way I look at debt is like a product. It's bread, milk, cheese, etc. If you have lactose issues don't eat/drink the milk or cheese. Stick to bread. Debt is milk/cheese for some people. And that's okay. If I call someone a bad person or pussy because they can't eat cheese, that's pure intellectual laziness. I'd say dude, that sucks I love cheese. I can handle cheese (DEBT) and I'm sorry you can't. I'm sure you like other foods though?
That's my line of thought. Some people simply cannot handle debt. That's fine. To say it's bad is absolutely wrong. We've emailed privately GNL You literally don't have a job without other people using debt. I wouldn't have either for 15 years. Rich doesn't have a job (Edit, I believe he does, that came across bad). Hence why I say we'd all be dead. It's all a ponzi scheme, but as long as incomes grow to some extent it's fine. So you get a Chevy instead of a Mercedes. You buy generic at the grocery store. The alternative without debt is literally death. Every working person on this forum is paid with debt....
52
GNL
2023 Mar 9, 3:42am
GNL
2023 Mar 9, 3:42am
If/when we go to CBDC as "currency", I believe that is when it becomes apparent that debt is slavery. They'll need to be able to control your $$ just to keep the system fluid.
53
GNL
2023 Mar 9, 4:14am
GNL
2023 Mar 9, 4:14am
The biggest problem imo is that the wrong people/group have/has control over the creation of money. They also fraudulently bailout certain groups. You can't have an honest system without failure...for everyone. Failure can't simply mean that an entity/person can fail without financial pain. The only people that get bailed out are failures. That's insane.
54
Eman
2023 Mar 9, 5:34am
Eman
2023 Mar 9, 5:34am
ECBB,
Debt is a tool….just like a knife. It cuts both ways. With that said, do what makes you feel comfortable. A piece of mind is worth a lot.
What I’ve learned is that liquidity = value during time of crisis like a recession or a job loss. We don’t have access to the liquidity when we’re paying down our mortgage…especially at 3% interest rate.
How about an alternative? Instead of paying $2k/mo towards mortgage principal, put that money in short term CD’s. Quite a few banks offer north of 4% now. Here’s a sheet I recently got from Fidelity.
Once you have amassed enough cash from these CD’s, you can payoff the house at once if you’re desired to. In the meantime, hang onto the liquidity and use CD’s as a way to offset the interest you’re paying on your mortgage?
Debt is a tool….just like a knife. It cuts both ways. With that said, do what makes you feel comfortable. A piece of mind is worth a lot.
What I’ve learned is that liquidity = value during time of crisis like a recession or a job loss. We don’t have access to the liquidity when we’re paying down our mortgage…especially at 3% interest rate.
How about an alternative? Instead of paying $2k/mo towards mortgage principal, put that money in short term CD’s. Quite a few banks offer north of 4% now. Here’s a sheet I recently got from Fidelity.
Once you have amassed enough cash from these CD’s, you can payoff the house at once if you’re desired to. In the meantime, hang onto the liquidity and use CD’s as a way to offset the interest you’re paying on your mortgage?
55
Eman
2023 Mar 9, 5:43am
Eman
2023 Mar 9, 5:43am
To emphasize that debt is a tool, here’s a short read from someone who shared his personal experience going from being a normal Joe to having a net worth of $10M, etc…
“When I finally achieved a net worth of $250,000, I realized that within a few years I could be a millionaire.
By the time I had a net worth of $500,000, I realized that I was absolutely going to be a multimillionaire.
A few years later, when I became a millionaire, I realized that three million would be fairly easy to achieve.
When I reached three million a few years later, I realized that I could be at five and ten million in no time at all.
The time from five million to ten million was much shorter than the time that it took me to achieve my first $250,000.
I had a steady income, just an average paying salary. I was living below my means and that allowed me to invest in, and eventually buy, the company that I was hired 20 years earlier to start. Then I was able to pay myself a little more and receive benefits of business ownership on a larger scale.
Any additional income came from various real estate investments.
Today, nearly forty years later, 95% of my net worth can be attributed to real estate.”
“When I finally achieved a net worth of $250,000, I realized that within a few years I could be a millionaire.
By the time I had a net worth of $500,000, I realized that I was absolutely going to be a multimillionaire.
A few years later, when I became a millionaire, I realized that three million would be fairly easy to achieve.
When I reached three million a few years later, I realized that I could be at five and ten million in no time at all.
The time from five million to ten million was much shorter than the time that it took me to achieve my first $250,000.
I had a steady income, just an average paying salary. I was living below my means and that allowed me to invest in, and eventually buy, the company that I was hired 20 years earlier to start. Then I was able to pay myself a little more and receive benefits of business ownership on a larger scale.
Any additional income came from various real estate investments.
Today, nearly forty years later, 95% of my net worth can be attributed to real estate.”
56
clambo
2023 Mar 9, 6:22am
Of course you can make money in real estate.
The problem is you may have an illiquid net worth; my friends in Santa Cruz own expensive houses but can't raise $1000 in a hurry.
My mutual funds are liquid; I can move a mouse and put a lot of dough in my checking account anytime.
But it's not too bad collecting rent either if you own more than one place.
The problem is you may have an illiquid net worth; my friends in Santa Cruz own expensive houses but can't raise $1000 in a hurry.
My mutual funds are liquid; I can move a mouse and put a lot of dough in my checking account anytime.
But it's not too bad collecting rent either if you own more than one place.
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As interest rates rise, the math says that it's better if invest any spare cash rather than pay down debt, which is at a low fixed rate (house, student loan, small car loan). However, particularly with the mortgage, there is something to be said for the peace of mind of having it behind me and owning my home outright. I'm fully funding my 401(k), and have a six month emergency fund, but until now, any "free cash" beyond that, I've been diverting to the mortgage. As I sit right now, the goal is have it paid off in the next 5 to 7 years. With high yield savings paying about 4% right now, that's a 1% spread relative to my 3% mortgage.
As much as I could try to invest in the market 1) I'm not that good, and 2) the market has more or less peaked, and I don't see another major bull market given that we are seeing the end of the "everything bubble". Once I own the house free and clear, then I'll have plenty of "play money" to invest or whatever and hopefully catch the next upswing.