patrick.net

richwicks says

Misc says

There's only about 550000 metric tons of silver in the world. There is only about 208874 metric tons of gold in the world. With the population of 1st world countries being about 1 billion, there is simply not enough of the commodity for it to be used as a currency.

We don't know the true numbers for one, and for another, we can subdivide both gold and silver to the point they are sizes of peas. The idea that "there isn't enough" is just false.

The financial attack on these metals is being done because it would crash the system if everybody just bought a small amount of each. Our financial system is just a scam, and eventually, that will correct.

It would be smaller than peas. It would have to be flakes There simply isn't enough. You work for 2 weeks...here's your flake of silver.

Misc says

The savings rate would by necessity be much higher than the rate at which the metal is mined.

Without social security, a savings rate of 20% would be very low.

You have not addressed this fundamental flaw with the system. It leads to the system collapsing. A commodity based system is not stable.

Also, if you are promoting a commodity based system, you should have some idea of how much of the commodity is being added per year.

I have quoted the entire comment here, but don't see any answer to the specific question regarding your source for the 0.9% and 1.8% numbers. Did you pull those numbers out of thin air? The fear of running out of monetary metal is a little like the fear of running out of oil or the perennial claim of "only 30 years of oil reserve left" that lasted since 1860's. Commodity supply / "reserve" is dependent on price; price motivates new discoveries and new mining.

Your 20% saving rate hypothesis for individuals is nonsensical: a person may save during his productive years (that's even before touching the issue of a high productivity person likely invest savings after having 6mo cash on hand instead of piling up more cash), but will be a net-spender during his retirement; or his heirs will. Even if he takes his gold and silver to the grave, the tomb raiders will spend it for him! Out of hundreds of Pharoahs, only Tutenkarmon's tomb (or what was alleged to be his tomb) was relatively unraided, until the 20th century. The only hoarders that have proven somewhat successful at hoarding at a consistency that has economic consequence are institutions like coordinated banks after putting in place a gold-only standard . . . so that the institutions can run their fraudulent warehouse receipt scam in order to control the inflation and deflation cycles.

Misc says

There's only about 550000 metric tons of silver in the world. There is only about 208874 metric tons of gold in the world. With the population of 1st world countries being about 1 billion, there is simply not enough of the commodity for it to be used as a currency.

Silver is 10-20 times more common than gold in the first few hundred feet of the earth's surface. Looking at the 2.5x ratio in your numbers should have told you that silver is not being treated as monetary metal currently but as an industrial metal. There is only a couple month's above-ground storage of oil on this plant; how can the world survive on so little oil? The answer is quite simple: as industrial commodity, oil and silver are largely flow material. If the price is higher, more will be mined and prospected.

Misc says

It would be smaller than peas. It would have to be flakes There simply isn't enough. You work for 2 weeks...here's your flake of silver.

LOL! Why would you then work there instead of working for the silver mines directly? A worker operating modern mining equipment at a silver mine in the US can produce much more silver every day. Commodity based Bimetalism allows the public to increase money supply on their own, instead of making money creation an exclusive domain of the banksters that can coordinate each other to create synchronized inflation/deflation cycles.

Silver was the defacto money of the world from circa 10th century (very much behind the rebirth of market economy in Europe hundreds years after the collapse of Roman fiat money economy; the center of that silver economy was Troyes in northern France, hence the Troy Ounce and Troy Pound we know today) through the 18th/19th century (when banksters forced gold-only standard on the world in preparation for fraud money / fiat money).

Here it is

https://www.google.com/search?q=amount+of+gold+in+the+world&sxsrf=APwXEddih0Cm5n-gogdrspLmXXmSwEKMuw%3A1680359110731&source=hp&ei=xj4oZK62KsjmkPIP-Y6-oAM&iflsig=AOEireoAAAAAZChM1kV-HK_RWoCPAToNR7sFpXQwtxNP&oq=&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYBTIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJzIHCCMQ6gIQJ1AAWABgkzBoAXAAeACAAQCIAQCSAQCYAQCwAQo&sclient=gws-wiz

https://www.google.com/search?q=amount+of+silver+in+the+world&sxsrf=APwXEdcTtdu2ggv0Jn9iLc7cKT2TXq5-7A%3A1680359119022&ei=zz4oZJuIAfTCkPIPzLWI-A0&oq=amount+of+gold+in+the+world&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQARgIMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABBHENYEELADMgoIABCKBRCwAxBDMgoIABCKBRCwAxBDSgQIQRgAUABYAGCnPmgBcAF4AIABAIgBAJIBAJgBAMgBCsABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp

https://www.statista.com/statistics/253293/silver-production-volume-worldwide/

https://www.gold.org/goldhub/data/gold-production-by-country?gclid=CjwKCAjwrJ-hBhB7EiwAuyBVXQZMwkN2ojfVVgpeEVii4wwBYI6ZJCrKIU_KxTcUFyXXxH-qpb5chhoCxEsQAvD_BwE

Yes, with any reasonable savings rate the rate of addition at about 1% collapses the system.

There is also about $28 trillion in bank deposits and money market accounts in this country alone, not even including the other outstanding bonds. I will let you do the math to determine the size of silver flakes that a person would receive for 2 weeks worth of work.

A commodity based system is crap.

As expected, your numbers are crap. Current silver production volume worldwide is not the same as growth rate of above-ground silver in the world, just like oil production worldwide is not the same as growth rate of above-ground oil storage in the world. Both silver and oil are being treated as industrial material, not stored monetary commodity. If/when Silver becomes monetary commodity, price will make the above-ground storage (i.e. a proxy of base money supply when it is monetary metal) increase at 10x to 20x of the current gold above-ground storage increase per year or higher (as gold is currently treated as monetary metal in some context, but not fully) simply because that's the equilibrium point between mining silver vs. mining gold as silver is 10x to 20x more abundant than gold in earth accessible to current mining technology/capital.

Misc says

Yes, with any reasonable savings rate the rate of addition at about 1% collapses the system.

First of all, the monetary metal increase per year would be much higher than the alleged "1% industrial mining rate" (which is meaningless because the annual industrial consumption is more than the mining output, thanks to continued draw down of above-ground silver that had been mined from before demonetization of silver in the 1870's). Then "savings rate" is also non-sensical to the discussion: a person can not take silver off the plant when they die, so whatever is "saved" during his work years have to be disgorged during his retirement or his heirs will (or tomb raiders will).

Misc says

There is also about $28 trillion in bank deposits and money market accounts in this country alone, not even including the other outstanding bonds. I will let you do the math to determine the size of silver flakes that a person would receive for 2 weeks worth of work.

LOL! Then by the same logic as your argument how much cash is sitting at the Federal Reserve? Near-zero! compared to the $28 trillion. Goes to the show the fraud of the fiat money system. If you are not happy to work with current pay, a silver-based money under bimetallism would allow the worker to go work for a silver mine as a way of having a higher pay. Whereas in a fiat money system, the average worker has no alternative when faced with bankster coordinated monetary tightening (or loosening when prices go up for lives' necessities, as his paper money can be infinitely duplicated by a group of central controllers highly susceptible to corruption). While gold-only standard would result in gold flakes for average weekly pay due to the rarity of gold (hence quickly leading to circulating money on the market being dominated by warehouse receipts and frauds), because silver is 10x to 20x more common than gold in the earth's crust (that is accessible to human mining effort) silver coins as the transacting currency of the world have had a long history of coin being large enough to be easy/durable to handle, thousands of years of history.

The size of the Fed's balance sheet is about $8.7 trillion.

This monetary base can be increased or decreased as needed. Unlike a commodity based system.

You are arguing that the production of gold and silver can go up at an exponentially increasing rate. This would keep up with not only increasing population but an increased need for savings as well. Mathematically this cannot occur.

You still have not done the math to tell us the size of the silver flake that would be given for 2 weeks worth of work.

Also, you seem to be arguing that the monetary base (silver) can increase by 10-20 times its current size. How in the world is this better than fiat?

Misc says

The size of the Fed's balance sheet is about $8.7 trillion.

Does that include all the MBS from 2008? Does the Fed really have any assets beyond the ability to print infinite dollars?

Onvacation says

Misc says

The size of the Fed's balance sheet is about $8.7 trillion.

Does that include all the MBS from 2008? Does the Fed really have any assets beyond the ability to print infinite dollars?

Yes, that includes the MBS from 2008. Don't get me wrong I don't believe the Fed knows what it is doing. If marked to market, it's holdings would be a negative trillion dollars roughly. They lost over $9 trillion dollars last year ---- Brilliant ! ! !

It is the fiat system that is sound whereas a commodity based system must collapse.

Misc says

You are arguing that the production of gold and silver can go up at an exponentially increasing rate. This would keep up with not only increasing population but an increased need for savings as well. Mathematically this cannot occur.

The same can be argued for the FEDs printing of dollars.

Just a matter of time before the dollar goes Zimbabwe. I don't expect it to last more than a couple hundred more years.

Misc says

It is the fiat system that is sound whereas a commodity based system must collapse.

Because you say so?

fiat
fē′ət, -ăt″, -ät″, fī′ăt″, -ət
noun
An arbitrary order or decree.
Authorization or sanction.
An authoritative command or order to do something; an effectual decree.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, 5th Edition.

How much more money can they print before the world says, "No More!"?

There are physical limitations to commodities. The same is not true for a simple mathematical system. Fiat can increase exponentially. Commodities cannot.

Finite precious metals vs infinite (theoretically) fiat, which will stand the test of time?

Misc says

The size of the Fed's balance sheet is about $8.7 trillion.

That is only an account entry (with little meaning, as it is not marked to market), not the amount of cash sitting at the Fed, like you were insisting on the world not having enough silver for money.

This monetary base can be increased or decreased as needed. Unlike a commodity based system.

Therein lies the source of great corruption and abuse of power. If a country has a trillion dollar silver mine (or oil well, or gold mine) easily mineable by the government (or appointed cronies), then that country is almost guaranteed to be corrupt and dictatorial, not answerable to the public in that country, as monopolistic control of that mineral wealth can buy cronies and buy violence for suppressing the public. The FED's printing machine is that easily tapped mineral wealth, and the reason why our republic is breaking down.

You are arguing that the production of gold and silver can go up at an exponentially increasing rate. This would keep up with not only increasing population but an increased need for savings as well. Mathematically this cannot occur.

Strictly speaking population growth can not increase exponentially indefinitely, because the earth's surface and volume are finite. Not even solar power is infinite, because the Sun is finite in size and mass. The mining of gold and silver can go up significantly if the prices are higher. Worrying about using them up is even sillier than worrying about running out of oil (assuming you understand the abiogenic origin of oil): unlike oil, silver and gold are not even consumed in monetary use but only pass from one to another. "Savings use" is a silly thing to worry about: people with highest incomes would reinvest most of their "savings" after having a 6-month cash reserve instead of holding on cash metal which would incurr storage fee when the amount of huge; whatever a person saves in cash does not disappear when he dies, so whatever he saves in cash metal during his working life would have to be disgorged in his retirement, or to be disgorged by his heirs, or to be disgorged by tomb raiders.

You still have not done the math to tell us the size of the silver flake that would be given for 2 weeks worth of work.

That's about as silly as asking how many square feet of bedroom room space should be paid for the worker. If there is not enough residential housing, more gets built while more workers get put to work building them. The eventual equillibrium point is anchored by the cost of mining silver vs. worker productivity.

Also, you seem to be arguing that the monetary base (silver) can increase by 10-20 times its current size. How in the world is this better than fiat?

First of all, I never said that. What said was annual silver production volume would be increased to 10x to 20x current gold production volume or more (if and when silver becomes monetary metal again). Current worldwide gold production volume is about 3000 metric tons, so 10x to 20x that would be 30,000 to 60,000 metric tons. Total amount of above-ground silver in the world is currently estimated to be between 550,000 metric tons to 1.6 million metric tons. However, in Bimetallism, the base money would have to take into account about 200,000 metric tons of gold, which at 16:1 ratio would be equivalent to 3.2 million metric tons of silver for monetary purpose. Likewise at 16:1 ratio, the 3000 metric tons of gold annually produced would be equivalent to 48,000 metric tons of silver. So the combined output would be about 78,000 - 108,000 metric tons of silver-equivalent vs. close to 4-5 million metric tons (silver-equivalent; i.e. silver + goldx16)) of current above-ground in storage, or about 2% . . . remarkably close to the FED's 2%-3% inflation goal! Except in this case the mining would be dynamically adjusted by the market with tens of thousands of participants instead of a handful of PhD's easily controlled by banksters because they can't find a better job elsewhere. Also, the difference between likely reality vs. a "goal" (that the FED has had no history of achieving despite "hedonic adjustments" to cook the books on statistics)

Edit:
Another major difference: the FEDpos;s 2-3% is price inflation goal (after cooking books vis hedonic adjustment, owner's equivalent rent, etc..), whereas the 2% monetary metal increase may not result in price inflation at all if productivity in general economy is increasing by 2% annually or more.

PeopleUnited says

Cool story bro but it still has nothing to do with the fact that our government functioned best when we had sound money and government could not print money out of thin air.

Private Banks are a separate issue. They need separate regulations. But depositors should work with banks at their own risk. With sound money people don’t need banks.

Apples and Oranges. Our government functioned better because it was severely constrained by the Constitution, no Income Tax, and no Central Bank --- and no resource distributors voting (ie 19th Amendment - Women).

We spent the turn of the Century fighting over silver vs. gold vs. bimetalism. "You shall not crucify this country... upon a cross of Gold" was a famous political speech.

There were many panics and local busts during the Gold Era and most of them were brought upon by Wildcat banks that couldn't honor all the paper they spewed out relative to their metal deposits.

Good luck schlepping sacks of metal to buy land or a house in cash. Much less an airline delivering metal money for aircraft.

The practical result of commodity fetish, especially Gold, is what 19th Century people called "Shinplaster":






Because once the bank went under, that was the only thing your gold banknote was good for - padding for your legs.

Imagine Silicon Valley Bank, but with paper bank notes given to the depositors. Where is the FDIC going to get billions in gold coin?

TRUST THE BANKS! Give 'em your Gold, and Take their paper!

Gold currency in reality:


Again, there would have to be a mandate that institutions are required to pay a minimum distribution of the physical metal out to clients and employees and contractors. Say, 10%.

So if somebody withdrew $1000 from a bank, the bank MUST pay $100 of that in metal. Ditto for paying a handyman for laying tile or an employer paying an employee.

PeopleUnited says

With sound money people don’t need banks.

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree? How the fuck that "no need banks" shit would work for somebody not living hand to mouth? You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7? The cost of that won't be trivial.

RWSGFY says

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree?

They could store it in their Tiny House

RWSGFY says

You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7? The cost of that won't be trivial.

Did you actually keep $2mil in cash savings account when the interest rate was less than 0.25% while the price inflation rate was double-digits despite all the hedonic adjustments, box-shrinking and owners' equivalent of rent? You must have lost well over $200k in purchasing power per year during that time, well in excess of the cost of having a dedicated security system (is that even necessary when dealing with only 1000 ounces of gold weighing less than 70lbs? BTW, $2million in $100 bills would weigh $44lbs, so not that far from gold weight at current price; give it another 5-6 years of inflation as low as 5% per year would make the two weights equal to each other). In any case, why didn't you invest that money in some productive assets that would throw off yield instead of cash sitting in a savings account that yielded practically nothing while inflation was eating you alive.

AmericanKulak says

Because once the bank went under, that was the only thing your gold banknote was good for - padding for your legs.

Imagine Silicon Valley Bank, but with paper bank notes given to the depositors. Where is the FDIC going to get billions in gold coin?

TRUST THE BANKS! Give 'em your Gold, and Take their paper!

Combined with your excellent earlier comment on banks discounting each other's notes, what would have happened in a sound money banking system would be other banks deeply discounting SVB notes when it was lending money to borrowers that no other banks would lend while on condition of SVB being their exclusive banks, essentially creating a much lower value SVB-dollar plantation script. Banks discounting each other's notes would have made the unsound lending practice easily visible, consequently depositors would have withdrawn sooner and stopped the pyramid scheme in much earlier stages. What the fiat money banking system and unlimited FDIC insurance have done is incentivize bad banking practices and reward/incentivize the wealthy/relatively-independent segment of the population to become stupid and lazy. It's the monetary equivalent of having centrally controlled electronic voting machines casting the votes instead of letting informed voters vote . . . which obviously leads to dictatorships and/or fake cardboard cut-out leaders

Incidentally, deeply discounted SVB notes would also have prevented Californians buying up land and homes in Texas and other red states, turning (parts of) them blue and just as broken. The spread of undiscounted SVB-dollars is having a Gresham's Law effect: fraud money chasing out good money under fiat money standards.

RWSGFY says

LOLwhat? Are we supposed to keep our "sound money" under a mattress or buried in a tin can under a peach tree? How the fuck that "no need banks" shit would work for somebody not living hand to mouth? You seriously suggesting that I should keep my couple of million $$ in savings at home, thus painting a huge target for a home invasion on my back? Or shall I hire private security to guard my house 24x7?

Here’s an idea, leave your alleged $2 million in a bank, so that the real professional criminals (banksters) can have custody of it.

Yeah, that sounds like a good plan.

AmericanKulak says

There were many panics and local busts during the Gold Era and most of them were brought upon by Wildcat banks that couldn't honor all the paper they spewed out relative to their metal deposits.

Yes like I said, private banks need their own regulations.

But sound money is a government thing not a private bank thing. A government that can steal your money through taxes and inflation has too much power. A government that has the power to literally print money on a whim just because it wants to spend more will become a criminal government. Hence the government you have and yet you defend the criminals to the last breath, and all the while they continue to enslave you. Get ready for your CBDC, you are going to love that even more.

AmericanKulak says

Good luck schlepping sacks of metal to buy land or a house in cash. Much less an airline delivering metal money for aircraft.

This doesn’t even make sense on the surface.

Here is what an acre of land sold for in 1900.


If we had sound money the price for that same acre of land today may have gone up or down some, but still would be relatively close to that same $20.

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

AmericanKulak says

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

Forget about bank notes. That has nothing to do with sound money. In fact we can have sound money and outlaw bank notes.

But even under current transactions you often lose nearly five percent to the money changers. That’s actually pretty normal. We can make that illegal too of course. That is what government should do, regulate against fraud and monopoly. It should not create money out of thin air (aka commit fraud itself)

PeopleUnited says

AmericanKulak says

PeopleUnited says

Do you understand what sound money means? It means money retains its value and prices for most goods, and necessities don’t rise to 250 times what they were in 1900.

I do. And I love taking money out of the hands of government.

Buuuuuut, I'm not putting it in the hands of banks.

Again, we saw what happened in the 19th. The Banks and top 0.1% soaked up all the gold, and gave out paper.

If you had a banknote for $100 in gold and went to another bank or tried to use it somewhere else, you got less than $100 for it, and often a 5% discount. You lost 5%+ of your money with gold-backed banknotes in many transactions.

Forget about bank notes. That has nothing to do with sound money. In fact we can have sound mone...

Not interior to your own country you don't.

When was the last time you had to exchange Community Credit Union dollars for Bank of America dollars because somebody was suspicious of a credit union they never heard of?

Gold is cornerable by big actors. Silver less so. An average land value over-a-decade based currency would be imminently stable and mimic real growth of the nation, increasing at the same rate as the economy improved.

I’m not arguing for anything but sound money. It matters not what method is used to achieve that. (Although once you start down the road of land taxes and land value BS, you empower a bureaucrat aka crony capitalism to decide values and that usually doesn’t end well)

Just know this, when the US coined money out of gold and silver, those coins were in circulation for decades and served as a stable form of payment.

Tax the rich to pay their fair share, require payment in metals. Then put the metal coins into circulation. Problem solved.

We also need to basically end corporate charters after 5 or 10 years so that corporations can’t become more powerful than people and buy votes/create laws that inhibit competition, but that issue is separate again from sound money.

People don't understand the purpose of commodities as money.

If the government collapses, there can still be trade possible. That's the purpose, to make government irrelevant in survival.

If the dollar goes to 0, what will most of you do? Most of you will starve to death. You're already slaves. You must support the government. That's the purpose of fiat money.

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

AmericanKulak says

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

And this is different from current money and credit cards how?

There will always be criminals. The worsy criminals are the government. Your money is script paper.

richwicks says

And this is different from current money and credit cards how?

At least the FDIC can print Greenbacks.

Can the FDIC repay depositors with Gold when the bank that collapsed lent out 900% more gold than it had in banknotes?

EDIT: Silver is wonderful. But we need that mandatory metal minimum for wages and salaries and small contracts.

Gold is no longer a "barbarous relic".
https://www.finews.com/news/english-news/55674-gold-relic-central-bank-imf

In 1924, economist John Maynard Keynes described the gold standard as a «barbarous relic,» declaring both the usefulness and value of gold as obsolete.

Fast forward to 2022, central banks bought more gold than they had done in over half a century, splashing out on 1,136 tons of it. the most since 1967, as finews.com reported. The amount was also the second-highest value since 1950 and an increase of more than 150 percent compared over 2021.

In the four decades leading up to the global financial crisis, central banks were focused on reducing their gold holdings. This all changed in 2008, the point when the hoarding began.

I have mixed feelings about real money. I like silver and gold and copper and nickel coins but they are much more useful for other things. Real money is real because you don't have to trust a third party. A one troy ounce silver eagle has a distinct look and feel and would be difficult to counterfeit. It has intrinsic value. That same ounce of silver could be used in manufacturing some cool stuff.

If we had a government, or central bank, that we actually trusted then fiat money might work but we don't. our money has been pure fiat for more than 50 years and we are headed for the inevitable crash that all fiat money systems have gone through. Unless they can pull off the great reset...

We live in interesting times.

richwicks says

People don't understand the purpose of commodities as money.

If the government collapses, there can still be trade possible. That's the purpose, to make government irrelevant in survival.

Yes, it would be a fundamentally different economy. There will be bartering. Homesteading would prepare someone to survive this.

There may be lawlessness and more rampant crime because there is no organized government.

People would have to take matters into their own hands as far as survival as they can't call 911. That is why homesteaders are very prepared for this.

Small neighborhoods would have to form partnerships and alliances to protect themselves as a collective, such as provide for their own security or police.

But it will be survival mode. No easy life as far as running down to Walmart to buy cheap electronics, and food.

Likely services from health care to utilities (electricity, internet, etc.) will be non existent.

.

AmericanKulak says

When the government collapses, the thugs that work for the mob boss that runs the flea market sees the guy pull out silver rounds to pay for some antibiotics, a few of the guys follow him home, kill him and his sick kid, and take his stuff and his silver round stash.

Good point on physical safety/security. The US has the advantage of having high statistically armed civilians: so that thugs living off robbing people won't live long before running into civilians shooting back at the would-be muggers/home-invaders. Seems even today with the Soros DA's releasing thugs on minimum bails, the plan is avoiding wasting prison resources on them and hoping someone not in uniform would shoot and kill them, so that the government doesn't have to pay for more prisons, prison guards and prison doctors. IMHO, if/when the government collapses, even a full ounce silver round would be too valuable for buying random supply at the flea market or farmer's market. When the former soviet bloc countries collapsed, they all resorted to vodka/whiskey, cigarettes and tuna cans as circulating currency. In the US, the 90% silver quarters and dimes minted up to 1964 (and 40% silver half-dollars up to 1972) might become more convenient circulating currencies than alcohol/cigs/tuna. 100% silver rounds tarnish too quickly, and gold coins are too small unless making major purchases, so both are likely to be reserved for capital purchases or major appliances/equipment/car purchases.

ad says

Likely services from health care to utilities (electricity, internet, etc.) will be non existent.

There might be disruptions of utilities (but internet is designed to survive nuclear wars; the solar promotion in recent years might have something to do with survivability during power generation disruption); personal services will continue because doctors and nurses will have to eat as well (same as plumbers, electricians, etc.). Regulators preventing people from practicing medicine might have a hard time getting paid so they may have to practice medicine instead of stopping others from practicing medicine . . . which means the price of medicine will likely be lower (with much higher percentage of the money, close to 100%, going to the doctor/nurse doing the actual work, instead of myriads of paper pushers and legalized drug-pushers in the middle) but quality will depend on practitioner (as always is the case anyway, especially given the way med schools admit students based on race nowadays).

Reality says

Good point on physical safety/security. The US has the advantage of having high statistically armed civilians: so that thugs living off robbing people won't live long before running into civilians shooting back at the would-be muggers/home-invaders.

That is why employees are paid in company script. You certainly don't want half of your employees getting killed leaving the pay station, with their bag of gold dust and ingots.

Tenpoundbass says

That is why employees are paid in company script. You certainly don't want half of your employees getting killed leaving the pay station, with their bag of gold dust and ingots.

I don't think employees are paid in company script (company script would be a bearer instrument therefore just as enticing to robbers as cash) but usually checks drawn on whatever bank the company banks with (i.e. a check instrument with specific recipient name), mainly as a way of avoiding clerical errors. In any case, check-cashing (helping employees to turn pay checks into bearer instrument, usually cash) is a thriving business despite those check-cashing stores usually being located in neighborhoods that have high crime rate to begin with. The casualty rate at check-cashing stores are fairly low (understatement of the year; nearly non-existent), in fact lower than the average of the specific neighborhoods where they are located. At current price, $100 bills weigh less than the equivalent value gold (i.e. 20 Franklins weigh less than 1 troy ounce), so it is actually easier to grab-and-run $1M cash in $100 bills (22lbs) than grabbing-and-running with $1M worth of gold (about 34 lbs). I don't know, do you think the nicer neighborhoods where the former SVB customers showed up in their Porsches to run on the bank had more shootings at bank counters where checks get cashed?

We're not actually giving China Gold are we? What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

Tenpoundbass says

What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

A flyover by high level bombers?

Tenpoundbass says

We're not actually giving China Gold are we? What are we giving other countries when they call our loans?

The loans were made in fiat dollars; why would there be any need to pay back in gold? OTOH, under sound money system, those treasonous acts of shipping American jobs (and more importantly, American manufacturing bases) overseas would have been stopped a long time ago . . . and the huge highly centralized empires like China and Russia would have collapsed a long time ago because their giant bureaucracies wouldn't be able to survive without export trade adding liquidity to their economies that are constantly being sucked dry by the bureaucrats.