patrick.net

So that once or twice a year the media has another scare story about a govt. shut down with the typical bi-partisan agreement at the 11th hour. A lot of back slapping and glad handing and proof that the govt. is really working hard for the people.
Besides that, who is it owed to? It is never going to get payed back. Big buyers of treasuries don't seem to care. So does it even matter? If you say it does matter, when does it start mattering? 30 tril, 40tril, 100 tril....1 qudrillion?

komputodo says

It is never going to get payed back. Big buyers of treasuries don't seem to care. So does it even matter? If you say it does matter, when does it start mattering? 30 tril, 40tril, 100 tril....1 qudrillion?

The $64,000 question. Seems like it will never matter. My belief is you'll see the results as a smaller middle class and a larger and larger poor class.

GNL says

The $64,000 question. Seems like it will never matter. My belief is you'll see the results as a smaller middle class and a larger and larger poor class.

Which will continue to get more extreme. As long as you can keep the debt slaves full of junk food and entertained, nothing is ever going to change

Does anyone want the Federal Government to be profit driven???

I would rather have a government going further into debt each year than expanding its coffers every year... and you think taxes are high now.

Misc says

I would rather have a government going further into debt each year than expanding its coffers every year.

False choice. The government can limit spending to collections.

HeadSet says

Misc says

I would rather have a government going further into debt each year than expanding its coffers every year.

False choice. The government can limit spending to collections.

why would a politician want to limit spending when spending benefits him and being thrifty castigates him?

https://babylonbee.com/cleanArticle/senators-say-theyre-not-super-worried-about-running-up-national-debt-as-most-of-them-will-die-of-natural-causes-in-the-next-year-or-so

its all about cash flow ... not enough income to match expenses and the federal government does not have assets or savings to cover its expenses ...

however it does have "assets" as far as land and resources...it could try to increase income by leasing forest land such as for deadwood collection used for engineered wood

when i saw the congressional democrat's publishing their 2024 budget which was a 5.2% increase from the 2023 budget, then that was enough to show that we are seriously fucked.... the same democrats tout annual inflation (i.e, PCE) around 2.5% ...

the democrats want to increase spending at twice the rate of guvmint-reported inflation

why not just grow spending at 1 or 2% below the annual inflation rate ?

AD says

its all about cash flow ... not enough income to match expenses and the federal government does not have assets or savings to cover its expenses ...

Print it.

Why tax at all? Most of the budget is borrowed.

Patrick says

One simple solution is to defer the land value tax until the owner dies. That is, let it accumulate as a debt to the government, but with no obligation for the owner to sell until the owner dies.

Or the ability for some (seniors for example, perhaps inheritors) to spread out or delay the Georgist Taxes with the balance due on sale if they rise dramatically in a short period.

AmericanKulak says

D says

its all about cash flow ... not enough income to match expenses and the federal government does not have assets or savings to cover its expenses ...

Print it.

Why tax at all? Most of the budget is borrowed.

yep, so the "tax" on the working and middle class is guvmint-reported inflation

inflate out of a debt crisis seems like a perpetual feat
.

Tobin Tax would be great as well.

The arguments against it are retarded.

"I pay $7.95 to a broker for a trade, it would be a great injustice to pay 50 cents more in tax for a total of $8.45! I'll be bankrupt if I had to do that! Unfair!"

Seriously, there's a tax on buying pink lawn flamingoes from Ace Hardware but you can trade thousands of shares without paying sales tax?

AmericanKulak says

"I pay $7.95 to a broker for a trade, it would be a great injustice to pay 50 cents more in tax for a total of $8.45! I'll be bankrupt if I had to do that! Unfair!"

Seriously, there's a tax on buying pink lawn flamingoes from Ace Hardware but you can trade thousands of shares without paying sales tax?

That sounds like you want to have a tax on the broker fee and not a sales tax on the shares sold. To keep that pink flamingo analogy, one would pay a tax on the actual shares purchased. That is, buy $100 worth of stock, even without a broker fee like at Schwab, pay a $4 (at 4%) sales tax.

UkraineIsFucked says

There's no constutional amendment involving the Fed.

16th's passage the same year the current central bank was chartered is pure coincidence...

Everyone does realize that anyone alive and including unborn great grand kids will never pay the debt. It will never be repaid. That's the point. That's why we fight wars. Why in the flying fuck would you admit to wars and proxy wars that it was because you don't want to pay people back? It's nasty, but I'm glad to be a citizen of the most powerful one that can get away with it. Enjoy it. You got one life.

NuttBoxer says

16th's passage the same year the current central bank was chartered is pure coincidence...

No. But Fed's charter has nothing to do with amending the Constitution. In fact, the Fed is the third national bank chartered by Congress.

What doesn't anybody understand about 'Babylonian Debt Slavery' and 'fiat printing press money'? Our taxes are collected by the Vatican, and whatever they deem fit is deposited in the IMF or BIS and then lent back to us at an interest rate (low, but still interest) and the debt is meant to enslave, and keep the government operating at a deficit beholden to the various Euro banksters and mafias.

If you or I had a printing press in the basement and it made money, would we be in debt?

Someone_else says

If you or I had a printing press in the basement and it made money, would we be in debt?

Yes, if you are married.

Someone_else says

If you or I had a printing press in the basement and it made money, would we be in debt?

All that does is reward people with free money.

So there is essentially more demand but at best the same amount of supply.

If you are going to give out money, make sure there is enough innovation and productivity to provide adequate supply.

WookieMan says

. That's why we fight wars. Why in the flying fuck would you admit to wars and proxy wars that it was because you don't want to pay people back?

Well said. The debt is paid in blood. We the people are collateral, and the elites will trade our lives and labor like bargaining chips on the global market.

UkraineIsFucked says

NuttBoxer says

16th's passage the same year the current central bank was chartered is pure coincidence...

No. But Fed's charter has nothing to do with amending the Constitution...

Your statements seem to be at odds.

Patrick says

Cloward–Piven strategy?

Does Cloward Pivan believe that you can inflate your way out of anything?

.

8% of 2022 federal budget was for net interest

https://www.federalbudgetinpictures.com/where-does-all-the-money-go/

I wonder what it is for 2024.

They should hold outlays (or the federal budget) as constant for at least 3 years to reduce the growth of deficits:
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_budget#Overview

.
At least outlays from 2023 to 2024 only increase by about 1% thanks to the leadership of House of Representatives Speaker Johnson.

.

GNL says

Cloward–Piven strategy?

Partially. I mean the hofare wasn't enough. Now they have to import 9M and give them more than hofare does, like pre-paid charge cards and hotel rooms. Even Shaniqua didn't get months at a Manhattan or SF hotel at $200/day.

HeadSet says

That sounds like you want to have a tax on the broker fee and not a sales tax on the shares sold. To keep that pink flamingo analogy, one would pay a tax on the actual shares purchased. That is, buy $100 worth of stock, even without a broker fee like at Schwab, pay a $4 (at 4%) sales tax.

A transaction tax on Shares, like a sales tax, sure.

We definitely don't have a turnover or liquidity problem. Restoring a dividend-centric stock market might be better.

Paying taxes on money making money seems fairer than taxing productive income. I'd rather tax a surgeon's stock trades than tax his earned income.

Stop funding all welfare programs and the budget will be balanced.

zzyzzx says

Stop funding all welfare programs and the budget will be balanced.

Stop funding warfare programs as well. It’s one thing to have a well equipped military. It’s quite another to play policeman for the world.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

"Ferguson’s Law states that any great power that spends more on debt service (interest payments on the national debt) than on defense will not stay great for very long. True of Hapsburg Spain, true of ancien régime France, true of the Ottoman Empire, true of the British Empire." -Niall Ferguson

So why do we have any fucking national debt at all?

Just so the Fed can get interest payments from taxpayers?

Patrick says

So why do we have any fucking national debt at all?

Just so the Fed can get interest payments from taxpayers?

i don’t understand how this shit works too. they sell bonds, pay interest on bonds…

To answer the OP question: It's to keep the banksters happy.

Debt, as @Wookieman says is a contract which can be broken. You can't imprison people chained in your basement for unpaid debts to you like they did in the Roman Empire. On the other hand, they're trying to bring back debtors prisons via the backdoor of court fees.

In the early years of this country, the Colonies had issued debt to finance the Revolutionary War in part. After the war, Hamilton successfully pushed to have these bonds repaid at 100%. Of course, his cronies had been buying up Colonial debt for pennies on the dollar before this happened.

Who knows, maybe Aaron Burr did us a favor?

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

Patrick says

So why do we have any fucking national debt at all?

Just so the Fed can get interest payments from taxpayers?

i don’t understand how this shit works too. they sell bonds, pay interest on bonds…

@FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden

It's deliberately complicated. The US government sells bonds to get cash, and the Fed buys those bonds with newly printed dollars.

So the Fed starts with nothing, but gets interest payments from all of us on money it created out of thin air.

Patrick says

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

Patrick says

So why do we have any fucking national debt at all?

Just so the Fed can get interest payments from taxpayers?

i don’t understand how this shit works too. they sell bonds, pay interest on bonds…

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden

It's deliberately complicated. The US government sells bonds to get cash, and the Fed buys those bonds with newly printed dollars.

So the Fed starts with nothing, but gets interest payments from all of us on money it created out of thin air.

The Fed supposedly reimburses the gubment for any interest it collects on the Treasuries it holds. It's real profits stem from the power and influence as the agent of seigniorage, as has already been mentioned

stereotomy says

The Fed supposedly reimburses the gubment for any interest it collects on the Treasuries it holds. It's real profits stem from the power and influence as the agent of seigniorage, as has already been mentioned

Only for the bonds on the Fed's balance sheet. Interest on bonds held by everyone else Congress has to pay up.

Patrick says

Yeah Patrick, this year the federal debt service payments will be greater than the Pentagon budget. I think this is the first time that has ever occurred for the US federal government :-/

I hope this trend reverses some as deficits and debt decrease steadily with decreasing US Treasury interest rates and an improving economy.

.

stereotomy says

The Fed supposedly reimburses the gubment for any interest it collects on the Treasuries it holds. It's real profits stem from the power and influence as the agent of seigniorage, as has already been mentioned

The Fed has been losing some money now. At least it is reducing its Treasuries and mortgage back securities holdings.

" (Reuters) - The Federal Reserve said on Tuesday that it officially saw a net negative income of $114.3 billion in 2023, a record loss tied to expenses related to managing the U.S. central bank's short-term interest rate target. The loss last year follows $58.8 billion in net income in 2022, the Fed said.Mar 26, 2024 "