patrick.net

PeopleUnited says

Actually Jesus and Paul both taught the coming day in which living people would be caught up, taken away, or raptured in our current vernacular.

There's nothing to indicate this is a pre-tribulation rapture, and not the final day of judgement, where everyone being carried away and rising is for the purpose of standing before God as He goes through the book of their deeds.

This reference is perhaps the best study of Revelation that I have seen. If after reading this quite extensive review you still don’t see the pre-tribulation rapture, then at a least you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/index.htm

This guy's heavily influenced by Zionist teachings that seem to dominate much of American theology. Before Christ there were only the Israelite believers, and after came the Jews and Zionists. Israel was meant to spread the gospel of salvation, but they not only rejected their role, they rejected their savior. God selecting Abraham is no different than Jesus selecting the 12. He works through a few to influence many. Ethnicity has shit to do with it.

If I can find the book I read, will link or put a reference here.

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

PeopleUnited,

Can you give me, without interpretation, specific verses or passages that CLEARLY and emphatically declare the following:

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

The so-called "rapture" will take place specifically PRIOR to this tribulation period.

I think this gets into the same area as how long did creation last? Was it really seven days time as we know it today? Alot of the numbers in Revelation carry very specific symbolism, so taking them literally seems like a stretch.

Heaven and hell can be lived right here on earth. We all are heading for dust. I believe that it is our duty to better the world every day until we breathe no more. We all live on the same planet.

I believe in God. I can't tell you what that means other than I try to be ethical and moral. I am thankful for all the wonderful blessings I have and feel a connection to a higher power that gives me comfort and guidance. I try to treat others as I would like them to treat me.

I don't want to live in hell but I am not sure I am going to heaven.

Onvacation says

I am not sure I am going to heaven.

If you don’t know Jesus, most assuredly you will not. Only he can bring you there.

John 14 :1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

The Way, the Truth, and the Life
5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

7If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

RayAmerica says

PeopleUnited says

you will know that you have made your decision after a review of scripture and not the dogma handed down by whatever denomination you adhere to.

And you don't think you are being influenced by this self described "Premillennial futurist?"

Transparency is a good thing. He makes it clear in one of the prologues that he has been member of denominations who do and don’t teach what he is teaching. He believes that his perspective is not based on denominational dogma. Just read his prologues for yourself.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/foreword.htm
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Introduction.HTM

PeopleUnited says

My theory on the rapture:

The rapture will be a reward for humanity for lasting as long as it did.
Does the rapture come before or after the impending calamity, as the earth is slammed in the dirty side of the cosmic hurricane that is our solar systems travel through our galaxy? Or will they be asked biblical pop quizzes as they try to escape the impending doom?

I am not very religious (not in a conventional way at least), and this is a bit off-topic, but have you guys checked out the New Lexham version / project? I like what I have sampled thus far in comparison to the other versions. In particular I like its stated goal of being the most literal / accurate translation. Of course, all translations and even the oldest practices seem to have been tainted / corrupted over time (my opinion), so I do at least appreciate NL's ostensible mission.

Discovered it when I wrote script for a wedding.

I'm enjoying trying to learn a bit of ancient Greek and exactly what is written in the gospels at the same time:

https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/28-1.htm

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

RayAmerica says

The Tribulation period will last 7 years.

You will likely remember that Jesus spoke in parables, and scripture is spiritually discerned 1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

The Bible is a unit. So if you are looking for Short text sound byte or specific Hebrew, Greek or English words for a teaching that was meant to be understood in the full context of the entire body of scripture you are likely to miss out on a lot of things

The length of the tribulation is quite clear when the pieces are put together. This link covers the question you asked pretty well.
https://www.gotquestions.org/tribulation.html

There might be a gap of unknown length of time between the rapture and the start of the tribulation or it might start relatively simultaneously. We know the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist (who will be seen as a righteous, wise and honorable being by many people) is revealed and this antichrist confirms a peace treaty in the Middle East.

The purpose of this thread is listed above. You don’t have to believe in the rapture, your eternal destiny is more important than arguing over whether Jesus is rescuing believers before or at the end of the world. But you do have to believe in Jesus Christ (savior and redeemer) if you want to be forgiven of your sins. And if you miss the rapture, hopefully some will see this thread and realize that what God said is happening just as He said it would.

steverbeaver says

Yeah, Patrick. As I understand it, New Lexham compares all versions (Greek, Hebrew, etc. I believe) and tries to reconcile them. Sort of a reverse game of telephone.

But the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the NT in Greek. So if you want the most accurate, you start with those language sources. NASB is supposed to be closest to Greek literal.

PeopleUnited says

NuttBoxer says

Zionist teachings

That’s lies and propaganda. Read Genesis 17 ask God how long the promise He made to Abraham, Isaac and their descendants is in effect? (Hint, verse 7, 19, 20)

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

My focus is not on Israel, nor is there any advantage or privilege to being Jewish in the eyes of God. The ground is level at the foot of the cross. But if you believe the Bible you owe it to yourself and your God to ask Him if all the promises He made to the descendants of Abraham have been fulfilled. Because if not, God has unfinished business in Jerusalem.

Revelation reveals that there is much more to come. Including the Tribulation, the millennial reign of Christ, and the final battle and judgement. The rapture could happen at any moment. So look up, for your redemption draweth nigh. Luke 21:28.

NuttBoxer says

Yet Israel was attacked and scattered, also following prophecy, because of their rejection of God. No where in the Bible does God say He will prevent our assertion of free will, or the consequences that follow bad decisions. And if you take a holistic, non-Jewish view of the Bible, it's clear God's plan was always for the world, not for Israel alone. So naturally, anyone who focus's on Jewish, i.e. post-Christ interpretations has been misled by strong Zionist undercurrent in this country.

Jews returning to Israel is a necessary precondition for the End of the World and for the great Conversion prior to the end.

They had to Fail to prove that Men were Unable to Follow Strict Laws, and Christ was the only way.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/romans/11/11-29
Supercessionism disproved in Romans Chapter 11 - and a specific warning against being proud and haughty, too. You were grafted in, but the roots are elsewhere. If God removed some of the natural branches to make room for you, he will cut your ass off too if you get uppity about it.

An Unconditional Promise to the physical descendents of Jacob:
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah+31%3A31-34&version=ESV

Restore them From the Northern Lands --- neither Babylon nor Egypt were North, but East and West. Eurasia is North.
https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Jer.%2016.15

https://biblia.com/bible/esv/Ezek.%2036.24

Remember, as Jesus told the Apostles, the First will be Last. The Church is NOT Israel, but Believers are grafted onto the Tree of Life (Faith in God).

The Church is any gathering of honest Believers, Israel is a physical land and an Ethnos.

Also, personally, I am saved through the Messiah, not through my Ethnos (which comes from my Father and not my Mother as the Bible emphasizes and often only gives Patrilineal Descent for most of the Patriarchs, Kings, Prophets contrary to the Talmud Matriliineal Exile Cope Baloney ), since I can't follow the Law AND the Law was perverted by Man who was told many times not to add or takeaway. The Talmud is an additive/subtractive endeavor because it adds rules that aren't there (ie No Cheese with Meat, while the Bible only says not to directly seeth a Kid in it's Mother's Own Milk or not using Elevators on the Sabbath though no work is involved in pushing a Button), there is no evidence of ANY Oral Torah in the OT or NT (Jesus AND Paul OR Apostles never quotes anything remotely Talmudic; 2 Kings the Jews forgot about the Passover which would be impossible if they remembered the alleged Oral Torah/Talmud since it mentions Passover repeatedly) and by human evidence there's no Oral Talmud at best before 400AD which is long after the latest possible dates for any NT writing.

BTW, Thanks to the Protestants for being Word/Bible First because it left the Door Ajar for me to come in and opened my eyes to the Talmud.

https://www.raptureready.com/2023/05/13/prophecy-the-accelerating-rate-of-acceleration-by-dave-hubley/

Are we nearly at terminal velocity?

we can’t predict rupture. thats what bible tells us. it’ll happen when we deserve it.

Bitcoiner says

But when you put your religion in my face that’s an automatic, ginormous red flag.

I feel the same way.

"I'm SOOOOOOO religious!!!!" is code for "you won't judge me to be moral, so I'm going to use my religion as a shield for my obvious lack of morality which you're later going to experience. I can't be an evil piece of shit, I'm SUPER religious!!!!"

Bitcoiner says

People who are born into a family / community outside of Christianity are doomed and go to hell just because they haven’t accepted Jesus in their life? What if they never had a chance?

I've asked this of some super, actually, religious people. "Everybody hears the word of God!" is their answer. They really believe that people in, say, Sri Lanka have come across the Bible at one point, and that was their one chance, and they blew it.

I can appreciate that people actually believe, but I also know what a sociopath is like as I've met certainly a few. Sociopaths will become whatever you want. They just want you to trust them, and they will do anything to gain that trust.

All televangelists are sociopaths, not a single one has a shred or morality or decency. They have absolute contempt for people and regard morality as a pathetic weakness of subhumans.

I envy the truly religious. When I tell people I am incapable of faith, they think I'm lying. If there's a god, it's innate in all of us, and no religion describes it. If there's a god, we're largely cut off from it during our lifetime - IF there is a god. There's a creator for certain, but no guarantee at all it's sentient or anything like that. Might be just be physics.

I grew up in the Midwest, so naturally I ran into a LOT of these kind of Christians. People who have no grace, hold to Puritan views without understanding they are cultural, not Biblical, and are completely two faced. I still like to go to church, but I'm pretty picky about where I'll take my family. And I won't force anyone to go. Had too much of that growing up, and the personal relationship is what matters, not what your parents make you do.

If someone tells you there's anything you can do to earn salvation, they don't understand the Gospel. The only difference that matters between a Christian and non-Christian - One has accepted God's free gift of salvation, the other has not. Does accepting a gift make you a better person? NO! It just makes you redeemed, by God, not of your own power, so I have nothing to brag or boast about.

I don't want anyone to be religious. I just want you to have a personal relationship with God.

On the pre-trib, was talking with my Mom who attended Seminary in addition to a BA. She said pre-trib is a very new interpretation, and uniquely American. Makes sense because older generations seemed to accept suffering more readily than people do today. I'm not a "we have to go through terrible shit" person, I'm an avoid if you can, and we definitely have a right to pursue happiness person. But pre-trib dogmatic belief, along with such literal interpretation of Revelations is the view people who haven't done much study, and don't like reality when it gets hard, tend to take.

Lines up with other poorly researched topics that have been discussed on patnet. I think some here need to spend less time on the internet, and more time reading books.

Bitcoiner says

richwicks says

"I'm SOOOOOOO religious!!!!" is code for "you won't judge me to moral, so I'm going to use my religion as a shield for my obvious lack of morality which you're later going to experience. I can't be an evil piece of shit, I'm SUPER religious!!!!"

Perfect. Exactly like that.

Big difference 99.99% of those people don't hurt you and they are a small minority. The vast swaths of "atheist" leftoids hurt you on a daily basis and can't wait to put you into a concentration camp for refusing the next jab or not supporting the current thing. Maybe a bit hyperbolic but correct at its core. That's why it's wiser to be leary of people who blame Christians for everything

mell says

Big difference 99.99% of those people don't hurt you and they are a small minority.

I knew one such guy that worked for the MIC, and was fucking his own stepdaughter.

The worst people I knew constantly talked about how religious they were, because it's literally a mask to hide what pieces of shit they are. The guy I just described is the worst case, he was a total sociopath, but there's lots of them. I knew a guy that worked as a mercenary, claimed he was uncomfortable that the woman he was banging wasn't married to him, married her, stuck around for a year, divorced her, and then sued and got alimony.

The guy was a fucking mercenary. Who could have guessed he wasn't REALLY religious?

There's two types of atheists. There's people who are just nothing, they really aren't atheists, they are just saying they are atheists, they don't know ANYTHING about religion, they don't know anything about natural sciences (which is what made me into an atheist, kicking and screaming into it), they're just fucking robots. They actually ARE religious, they believe unquestionably in "authorities".

I don't trust authority period. If somebody tells me X is true, I have enough confidence in my brain to be able to understand why X is true. If I can't understand it, then I leave it in the grey area of it being possible, but it's not enough for somebody to just make a claim and I can no longer be bullied into accepting something is "obviously true" at this point. "What are you stupid???" - well possibly I am, but why can't you explain it?

richwicks says

I knew one such guy that worked for the MIC, and was fucking his own stepdaughter.

That's despicable, but nothing compared to wanting to put half of the country into concentration camps. You fail to realize that religious righteousness and whatever comes with it, inbreeding, etc., usually revolves around the family or a small cult. Leftoid atheists seek large government power to fuck things up, much worse. Look at history.

mell says

That's despicable, but nothing compared to wanting to put half of the country into concentration camps.

When I lived in Colorado there was a popular radio show host called Bob Enyart that was calling for the end of our government, setting up a theocracy, and creating a "shadow government", and enforcing a state religion..

mell says

Look at history.

Let's look at history. The Roman Catholic Church was really the political center of Europe, that kept Europe undeveloped and impoverished for nearly 2,000 years. What broke that, is that a bunch of Europeans fled Europe, went to South and North America, and began development on everything from the pot bellied stove, to steam engines, democratic republics, the telephone, the photograph...

I don't believe in any one ideology. You need many. This current wave of wokeism stupidity, it will burn out. It might take a while, but it's not going to infect India, Russia, or China, EVER. It's basically a North America, European, Australia and New Zealand thing, and it will just weaken everybody that engages in it. It's self correcting.

richwicks says

Let's look at history. The Roman Catholic Church was really the political center of Europe, that kept Europe undeveloped and impoverished for nearly 2,000 years. What broke that, is that a bunch of Europeans fled Europe, went to South and North America, and began development on everything from the pot bellied stove, to steam engines, democratic republics, the telephone, the photograph...

I don't believe in any one ideology. You need many. This current wave of wokeism stupidity, it will burn out. It might take a while, but it's not going to infect India, Russia, or China, EVER. It's basically a North America, European, Australia and New Zealand thing, and it will just weaken everybody that engages in it. It's self correcting.

The Catholic church was operating in times where science was in its infancy, there is no comparison. And even then, the swaths of deaths by leftoid atheists are unmatched. We're talking about most recent times, stalin, lenin, hitler, khmer rouge etc.

mell says

The Catholic church was operating in times where science was in its infancy, there is no comparison. And even then, the swaths of deaths by leftoid atheists are unmatched. We're talking about most recent times, stalin, lenin, hitler, khmer rouge etc.

There's just a lot more people to kill today than there were 200 years ago. In 1800, the world population was estimated to be around 1/2 billion people. It's estimated something like 1 million people died during the Irish famine and it didn't have to happen, the English ruled over the Irish, and basically stole everything BUT potatoes through taxation.

During the Napoleonic wars, something like 5,000,000 may have died.

We got no idea how many people died in the Inquisition..

I'm saying I'd rather have dangerous freedom, and being a peasant, and having a "safe" life, living my entire life on the edge of starvation, as a slave.

richwicks says

Let's look at history. The Roman Catholic Church was really the political center of Europe, that kept Europe undeveloped and impoverished for nearly 2,000 years.

There's pushback on that. For one, the richest part of Germany has been and still is Bavaria, also the most Catholic.

The big divide was between Southern Europe and Northern Europe, and it doesn't seem to have been Protestant vs. Catholic as very Catholic parts of Northern Europe leapt ahead of Southern Europe in the 1400-1500s, such as France, as did the Protestant countries.

What broke that, is that a bunch of Europeans fled Europe, went to South and North America, and began development on everything from the pot bellied stove, to steam engines, democratic republics, the telephone, the photograph...

Pot bellied stove is hardly a great advance, but likely originated in Germany.
The steam engine was developed and perfected in Britain.
The photograph was invented in France, developed by making images from the old camera obscuras common in Europe.
Yes, the US pioneered a Republic, but with experts who borrowed heavily from the English Parliament
The telephone was indeed a US invention.

mell says

richwicks says

I knew one such guy that worked for the MIC, and was fucking his own stepdaughter.

That's despicable, but nothing compared to wanting to put half of the country into concentration camps. You fail to realize that religious righteousness and whatever comes with it, inbreeding, etc., usually revolves around the family or a small cult. Leftoid atheists seek large government power to fuck things up, much worse. Look at history.

Yes, this is so tru, well said. Also, it is important to remember that even Jesus taught that the majority of people who claim to be Christian are Christian in name only. Just because someone claims to know God, does not make them a Christian. Many war a mask but their fruits are well known. But one of the stupidest things a non Christian says is that they don’t want to be Christian because Christians are hypocrites. You know where the hypocrites end up? The same place that those who reject Christ end up. Don’t look at Christians for the truth, look to Christ, He is the only one you need compare yourself to.

richwicks says

but why can't you explain it?

God cannot be explained, He must be experienced. You experience His creation everyday. You experience His love every day. You experience his mercy every day. One day you will either experience His forgiveness, or His judgement.

Everyone will experience God, and you still won’t be able to explain it. But you will experience Him, that is guaranteed.

Revelation 4:11
King James Version
11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Matthew 11:28-29
King James Version
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matthew chapter 7

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

NuttBoxer says

I think some here need to spend less time on the internet, and more time reading books.

Matthew chapter 7:1Judge not, that ye be not judged. 2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. 3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? 4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? 5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

NuttBoxer says

On the pre-trib, was talking with my Mom who attended Seminary in addition to a BA. She said pre-trib is a very new interpretation, and uniquely American.

Your mom has been misled by zealots who are unskilled in both history and unable to rightly divide the Word of God. Ultimately the Bible should interpret itself, with the aid of the Spirit of God. And that is how I would suggest anyone who has the love of truth approach the end time prophecies.

However, for those who insist on looking for evidence of the continuing teaching and beliefs of Christians in a pretribulation rapture you will find plenty of evidence. Over a thousand years ago preachers who did not even know America existed, preached about the rapture. https://pre-trib.org/images/2021_Conference/2021-Pre-Trib-Brainard-Recent_Pre-Trib_Rapture_Findings-Slides.pdf

And the author of this article challenges everyone to use the Bible as the source of truth, not man made traditions or claims about the origin of a teaching let theBible speak for itself. It is never wrong, but clearly God warns about adding or taking away from scripture. https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1051&context=pretrib_arch

This is absolute horseshit. I took went to a Christian college, and learned how to contextualize scripture, enabling me to pull more information than just reading alone provides. If you really want to know someone, you don't just do the bare minimum, but go deep. Researching the Bible by using historical works, anthropology, and linguistics isn't being a radical, it's being educated.

You're a stones throw away from paganism, worshiping rocks and the sun.

NuttBoxer says

This is absolute horseshit. I took went to a Christian college, and learned how to contextualize scripture, enabling me to pull more information than just reading alone provides. If you really want to know someone, you don't just do the bare minimum, but go deep. Researching the Bible by using historical works, anthropology, and linguistics isn't being a radical, it's being educated.

You're a stones throw away from paganism, worshiping rocks and the sun.

I suppose that “Christian College” education makes you a stones through from idolatry, worshiping the works and ways of man.

No offense intended, but a Christian who says another Christian is akin to a pagan for believing the Bible (and by the way the links I shared that believers throughout the ages have believed the same simple Bible promises about the imminent rescue of the church from a lost and condemned world, just as Noah and Lot were rescued before the judgement fell), well I wonder what spirit is influencing you.

Bitcoiner says

Holy shit. You guys watched the Hillsong (super mega church) documentary? About to throw up now. 30 years of raping and molesting children by Frank Houston. His son Brian Houston founded Hillsong and covered up his fathers career of being a child rapist. Frank would go to these Christian homes, preach, was treated like royalty and fucked/molested the young boys in their homes at night. When kids would speak out they were blamed for making up stories. Everyone - including the par (some text omitted to shorten quote...) ed sexual purity. Meanwhile he fucked the nanny and had a few affairs.

And of course Hillsong operates like all the other cults: 98% of the staff work for free and all the money goes up to the top (pastors) so they can live in mansions, fly in private jets, have chauffeurs and build up the warchest to pay off victims and those that know what they really are (sex predators).

If you want to do yourself and especially your kids a favor, keep the fuck away from churches.

Yep.

95% of US Pastors are opposed to the Biblical penalty for lying with another man (or anything serious, at least in public FFS) , and not just that, Ted Cruz himself is blasting Uganda today for having Bible-based laws on homosexuality and vowing US sanctions on it.

50 years ago, a Christian Man who volunteered to rescue a single ho with 2 kids from 2 fathers was considered a saint going way beyond.

Today, Pastors shame Christian Men for NOT volunteering to wife up a single ho with 2 kids from 2 other fathers.

The music is feminized AF, I can't even Write it as it's blasphemous what they sing about in praise music.

The devil has always had counterfeiters.
Acts 20:

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.