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clambo says

Credit cards are "unsecured debt."
Nobody but the cardholder is on the hook for the debt.

Nobody is on the hook. Even the person that took it out. You just don't pay it. The debt is paid off when it goes to collections. It's your choice if you decide to engage with those people. If you don't, you don't pay it. Yes you get a credit ding. Your debt is paid when someone buys your debt. Don't answer numbers you don't recognize. If someone asks "is this John Doe" say no and ask why. Don't sign certified mail personally unless you know it's coming for something else you know needs a signature.

Ethical or moral, no. But it's how lots of people operate. It's a business transaction.

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Ramsey is great for those looking to get ahead and only make about $50,000 in household income; he does encourage saving in growth stocks mutual funds, as I have heard him tout Wilshire 5000 index funds.

I get your point, but Ramsey is for lazy people really. He supports our inept eduction system with his "rules" on finance. We should teach people to use the tools available to them, not hide them from them. The wealthy have competition if you know how to use debt. It screws them. Dave is their puppet. His advice is the complete opposite of what every wealthy person does. They leverage tax free money to fund their life and investments. I'd rather pay 10% interest than 30% in taxes on income. And with housing debt you can write it off as well.

The key is to know when you got in over your head. AND if you can just dump the debt. Most cases you can. Put a fence around your assets and you can walk away. Dave tells you to stop going out to eat and you'll need to live with pennies for years and get two jobs. I live once. Fuck that. Learn how to game the system. The one thing the wealthy and blacks have in common.... Us moronic white dudes seemingly continue play by the rules for no reason while we pay for others "wealth...." lol.

WookieMan says

I get your point, but Ramsey is for lazy people really.

I understand and agree, but Dave Ramsey tailors to the blue collar and clerical worker crowd (~$40,000 to $60,000 annual household income). So their tax rate is not 30% and likely is very low if they have children. Ramsey advises them to at least avoid costly mistakes to progressively improve their finances.

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WookieMan says

I get your point, but Ramsey is for lazy people really.

I understand and agree, but Dave Ramsey tailors to the blue collar and clerical worker crowd (~$40,000 to $60,000 annual household income). So their tax rate is not 30% and likely is very low if they have children. Ramsey advises them to at least avoid costly mistakes to progressively improve their finances.

I hear ya. He just doesn't tell them the reality of the situation most people are in. My dad was a jack of all trades in the lawyer world. There are very few situations where bankruptcy makes sense. One is if you like paying attorneys and debt collectors for no reason. And this is what Ramsey is. A fear monger.

For that income range they'd be better off not paying the debt. He advocates paying it and attorneys. Ruining years of your life to make someone else money. When you get debt it was a business decision by both parties. There was always a risk it wouldn't be paid. That's why we have credit scores and companies approve credit limits. You made a bad bet on loaning someone money.... oh well. That's the business you're in. Don't loan money to people if you cannot handle the loss?

Ramsey comes at it like "you must pay it" mentality. He's a paid shill to get poor people to pay off their debt when they don't have to. Credit card and auto loan companies love the dude. For someone giving financial advice I'd love to see his taxes and annual receipts. I can promise you the hypocrisy from that guy is thick if we could see behind the curtain.

WookieMan says

The key is to know when you got in over your head. AND if you can just dump the debt. Most cases you can. Put a fence around your assets and you can walk away. Dave tells you to stop going out to eat and you'll need to live with pennies for years and get two jobs. I live once. Fuck that. Learn how to game the system. The one thing the wealthy and blacks have in common.

I'm not familiar with this but I suspect you mean like start a LLC and the LLC borrows the money so as to shield your personal savings and investments ?

I was thinking this can be done as far as an LLC buying vacation rentals and getting a bank loan to buy the vacation rentals with only a 20% downpayment.

I'd like to know more about what you mean by "put a fence around your assets and you can walk away"

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ad says

I'd like to know more about what you mean by "put a fence around your assets and you can walk away"

401k, HSA and Roths. If you're married it's huge.

401k: $22,500 (2023) X 2 = $45,000
HSA: $7,750 (2023) x 1 family = $7,750 (tax free gains if you keep medical receipts/bills)
Roth: $6,500 (2023) x 2 = $13,000 (tax free gains)

$65,750 you can put into protected accounts annually. Not a single creditor can touch those funds and you can tell them to fuck off. Ever. All of these grow and you get compound interest. Do this for 10 years. You'll likely have $3-5M in assets no one can touch. 20 years I think you get the math.

Now is it possible for most? Likely no, you'd need $200k of income and the median is still sub $70k for a family. But it's the iron dome of financial freedom. Try $10k between accounts to start. Remember to factor in matching and catch up after certain ages and it could be well over $75k/yr.

Throw in the fact you can start taking out Roth money after 5 years if you wanted (gains) and it's the quickest path to early retirement. You can file BK and they cannot touch a thing.

Now factor in a house. Own it for 10 years. You can pay yourself 1-3 years salary tax free in most cases with a line of credit or HELOC. The payment will be higher, yes. But if you file BK it's almost impossible to take a primary residence if you have a decent attorney.

I'm not promoting fucking over creditors. But this is reality. It's a business transaction. Everyone has been made to feel bad about default. It's not a big deal. Our economy dies if people stop taking risks and buying things. If you can get a couple million in protected assets, you're golden. Have to start young though to reap the benefits. If I have $5M in these accounts at 55, I can go on a binge and not pay a dime to any creditors. I wouldn't even need to file BK. Ignore them and they go away. They can't do anything.

Anyone wonder why inflation is high? I pretty much explained it. Boomers. They know they don't have to pay. Well most of them. They spend money they know they don't have to repay. This cycle has happened before.

WookieMan says

Now is it possible for most? Likely no, you'd need $200k of income and the median is still sub $70k for a family.

That is why Dave Ramsey caters to the ~$40,000 to $70,000 annual household income demographic. He does encourage saving in a Traditional IRA with growth stock mutual funds. Ramsey helps people to eventually reach higher levels of income.

I see that bronze plans from the Health Care exchange (or Obamacare) are only eligible for health savings accounts.

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ad says

He does encourage saving in a Traditional IRA with growth stock mutual funds.

NEVER touch any other account until you max these 3 out. Just don't. Anyone that tells you otherwise is frankly an idiot. Play with stocks and funds AFTER you've done this. If you can't do this, you have no business investing in anything that can be taken from you. Just go to the fucking casino at that point. Your odds are better off making more and keeping it going to the casino and betting black on a roulette table.

HSA, get your employer to set one up. It's a slight bit of leg work to make it happen on their end and yours. I also am not sure I'd want to be employed by someone that doesn't offer a HSA. Fuck them. It's just effort for maybe 5 hours a year and plugging the numbers into your accounting software. It's trivial. Reality is they don't even understand what it is and the benefits of what it is. I'm about to drop $2k to pay for an MRI. That $2k could have been invested for a decade, tax free and withdrawn tax free. Can borrow against it. Protected from creditors. Everyone WILL have medical expenses. Might as well make tax free income in the meantime off your money.

Sorry I'm aggressive on this topic. 99% of people don't know about this. They get sucked into "investments" by con artists. This fund or that. This stock or that. I'll take my approach and if I want to be reckless with debt I don't owe anyone a fucking dime and I keep my money. I can park the Lambo in the garage. I can book a $40k trip to SE Asia and not pay a dime. Buy a boat. List is endless. You see these people do this and you have to understand they're not paying for it.

This is what rich people do. They just don't tell you about it.