patrick.net

As we all know, Judges are impartial and just follow the law, which is why there's a huge fight for State and Federal courts, especially the higher tier courts.

Trollhole says

NuttBoxer says

Jury nullification is a real option.

Yeah but you can be prosecuted if you don't fess up to believing in jury nullifucation when asked 'is there anything that might prevent you from following these instructions' during juror vetting. A lawyer told me that once.

William Penn, Criminal Justice, and the Penn-Mead Trial
In September 1667 Penn was arrested for the first time, at a meeting of Friends. The mayor, noticing his aristocratic dress, offered to free him on his promise to behave; but the 23-year-old refused and was sent to prison with eighteen others. Penn wrote that religion was his crime and made him a prisoner to a mayor's malice, but at the same time it made him a free man.

Penn became an active promoter of Quaker ideas by writing numerous pamphlets. After he wrote "The Sandy Foundation Shaken" to refute the doctrines of the trinity and the eternal damnation of souls, he was put in prison again, not for his ideas but because he had no license from the bishop of London. Penn wrote "Innocency with her Open Face" and was released. Also while in the Tower of London he wrote his most famous book, No Cross, No Crown.

In 1670 Penn and William Meade were arrested in Gracechurch Street, London, for preaching. The recently passed Conventicle Act forbade gatherings for worship of more than 5 people, apart from for services of the Church of England. In the trial the prisoners appeared before twelve judges and twelve jurors. Penn challenged the legality of the indictment and would not plead without seeing a written copy; since this was not given, he pleaded not guilty. The next day the prisoners were fined forty marks for failing to remove their hats. Penn cited Coke on common law and the rights in the Great Charter (Magna Carta). Despite these arguments, the recorder charged the jury to bring in a verdict of guilty. Four jurors dissented, and they were sent back to rethink their verdict. The jury then found Penn and the others guilty of “speaking in the street”, but refused to add the words "in an unlawful assembly". The magistrates refused to accept this, and ordered the jury to be "locked up without meat, drink, fire, and tobacco", while Penn called to them not to give up their rights as Englishmen.

The charge that unarmed worshippers had riotously broken the peace was absurd. Yet the result was that Penn and all twelve of the jury were sent to prison. Someone, probably Penn's father, paid the fines, and they were discharged.

The jurors, released on a writ of habeas corpus, sued the mayor and recorder, winning their case before the Court of Common Pleas in a historic decision that conceded that judges "may try to open the eyes of the jurors, but not to lead them by the nose." Penn wrote a further pamphlet with an appendix citing numerous precedents since the Magna Carta of 1215.

This Penn-Meade trial became famous and showed that the arbitrary and oppressive proceedings of the courts badly needed reform. It is a precedent to this day.

Again the next year Mayor Starling had Penn arrested for preaching without taking an oath, even though the Conventicle Act requiring this was only for those in holy orders, which Penn was not. He was sent to Newgate prison for six months and occupied his time writing more pamphlets. He also sent a protest to the sheriffs of London about prison conditions and an address to Parliament against the Conventicle Act.

In 1673 Penn went to court to secure a writ of habeas corpus to release George Fox from Worcester prison. Fox had been in prison for more than a year; but Judge Matthew Hale found so many errors in the indictment that he discharged Fox. Probably because of Penn's influence with the last two Stuart kings, Fox was never arrested again. Penn wrote "A Treatise of Oaths" in 1675 so that Quakers would not be imprisoned for refusing to take an oath of allegiance or to swear in court. He cited 122 authorities from Pythagoras to William of Orange on the folly of exacting oaths.

Penn's many pamphlets arguing for religious tolerance such as "The Great Case of Liberty of Conscience Debated," "Examination of Liberty Spiritual," and "A Persuasive to Moderation" finally bore fruit in 1689 when the Toleration Act was passed. Many believed that his writings brought about the release of 1300 Quakers from jail.

https://www.quakersintheworld.org/quakers-in-action/96/William-Penn-Criminal-Justice-and-the-Penn-Mead-Trial

stereotomy says

William Penn, Criminal Justice, and the Penn-Mead Trial
In September 1667 Penn was arrested for the first time, at a meeting of Friends.

Doesn't fucking matter. They can still go after you or at least kick you out. Or bankrupt you in drawn out legal proceedings.

This is 2023 Fuck Legal Precedent America, not 1667 England.

https://www.flexyourrights.org/faqs/can-go-jail-jury-nullification/

First of all, jury nullification doesn't work with just one person, so your theory on being singled out for attack is baseless. The jury has to agree to nullify the proceedings. Now that we've cleared up the fear-mongering, will a judge and prosecutor go after an entire jury if they nullify? Anything's possible, but I imagine the backlash would scare them off. As to it never happening in the US...

"The most famous nullification case is the 1735 trial of John Peter Zenger, charged with printing seditious libels of the Governor of the Colony of New York, William Cosby. Despite the fact that Zenger clearly printed the alleged libels (the only issue the court said the jury was free to decide, as the court deemed the truth or falsity of the statements to be irrelevant), the jury nonetheless returned a verdict of "Not Guilty."
Jury nullification appeared at other times in our history when the government has tried to enforce morally repugnant or unpopular laws. In the early 1800s, nullification was practiced in cases brought under the Alien and Sedition Act. In the mid 1800s, northern juries practiced nullification in prosecutions brought against individuals accused of harboring slaves in violation of the Fugitive Slave Laws. And in the Prohibition Era of the 1930s, many juries practiced nullification in prosecutions brought against individuals accused of violating alcohol control laws.

More recent examples of nullification might include acquittals of "mercy killers," including Dr. Jack Kevorkian, and minor drug offenders."

NuttBoxer says

Anything's possible, but I imagine the backlash would scare them off.

Or there is enough Woke and Democrat jurists to let them go free so its a hung jury such as Democrat DOJ decided to not try Andrew Gillum and John Edwards again after hung juries.

.

The defense attorney kicked me out of the room when he asked me "is my defendant guilty" during the selection process.

I replied, "I don't know, I need to get a better look at her"

casandra says

The defense attorney kicked me out of the room when he asked me "is my defendant guilty" during the selection process.

I replied, "I don't know, I need to get a better look at her"

LOL! Shoulda said "Is she black or white?" That woulda got you on the express train home and off the jury pool rolls forever.

casandra says

The defense attorney kicked me out of the room when he asked me "is my defendant guilty" during the selection process.

I replied, "I don't know, I need to get a better look at her"

Valid response in my world. A picture is worth 1,000 words or whatever the phrase is. Looks and appearance matter. And no, not about skin color. Very rarely are my instincts off when I meet someone just by looks. I give them the benefit of the doubt, but if their vibe is off as hippy as that sounds, you've lost my trust from the word go. Hard to explain. My track record is very good, let's put it that way. I've failed on a few though or haven't been persistent enough.

One developer got raided by the FBI and I told my boss directly that the dude was scum. He didn't listen. Wanted a commission. Part of the reason I got out of RE. Desperation to make the next buck and work with absolute trash.

NuttBoxer says

First of all, jury nullification doesn't work with just one person,

Wrong. You can hang the jury.

NuttBoxer says

The jury has to agree to nullify the proceedings

See above.

You didn't even read the article I posted that you are responding to.

Step 3: DO NOT Mention Nullification in the Jury Room

Just don’t do it. If the judge believes that a juror is thinking about nullification, they will likely remove that juror. But if the juror simply has doubts on the facts of the case, the juror cannot be removed.

The inability to discuss jury nullification openly encourages hung juries. So if you must, hang. Even if the other jurors pressure you, stay true to your principles. Vote your conscience. A “not guilty” verdict might save someone’s life.

Despite Laura Kriho’s ordeal, the likelihood of going to jail for using jury nullification is remote. Regardless, these basic precautions can help you flex your constitutional rights without risking jail time. The greater risk is getting struck from the jury before you get a chance to use your jury nullification right.

ad says

That is why anyone who is a political target of the Democrats and federal bureaucracy is fucked. That is because the trials are held in blue cities and towns like Alexandria, VA. Its reverse jury nullification with a Democrat judge and Woke jury.

I'll be happy to sit on that jury if it's in Baltimore City.

Good stuff here. I'm supposed to call the night before to see if I need to show up for cattle call - this is for the week beginning 9/22.

have a great time

If there is a single woketard on the jury who lectures you on critical race theory or some other bs because you aren't voting its way, complain to the judge.

Trollhole says

NuttBoxer says

First of all, jury nullification doesn't work with just one person,

Wrong. You can hang the jury.

NuttBoxer says

The jury has to agree to nullify the proceedings

See above.

You didn't even read the article I posted that you are responding to.

You're conflating two completely different concepts. A hung jury means you can still be re-tried. A verdict of nullification means you have been tried, and CANNOT be re-tried.

I never responded to the article, just your attempt to fear-monger people out of doing what's right to save their own skins. Giving into to corruption just breeds more corruption. If I was a defendant I'd want my jury to know their rights, wouldn't you?

personal

Years ago, I was chosen to serve as an Assistant Foreman on the Grand Jury. The Foreman, was the Editor in Chief of a fairly large newspaper in my area. I served for 13 weeks, one session per week. Unlike a Petit Jury, the Grand Jury has the ability to look at the entire criminal record of the defendant in question. This is where it became interesting, because practically every defendant that came before us had a very lengthy criminal record. Over and over again, plea deals were struck and the defendant was put on probation, only to repeat more criminal offenses and get funneled through the system.

The undercover drug agents and police blamed the prosecutors for cutting unnecessary deals with the criminals. The Prosecutor blamed the Judges for being lenient if the case went to trial. The Judge blamed the legislators for passing laws whereby the sentencing guidelines were lenient.

The point we all came away with was this; the entire Justice system in the USA is broken. My friend the Editor told me that he was shocked at how messed up the system really is. I came away with an education based upon experience that changed my entire understanding on how the system really operates. Even the Judge said to me: "You got a real education on how our system really operates, didn't you?"

My wife just got a jury duty notice from San Francisco. That means Grand Jury, since we are not in that county.

I told her just to forget about it and pay the 1000 fine if it comes up. Taking BART is too dangerous. If they call, we'll just say that she will be happy to serve after they get rid of the politicians who made BART untravelable and the cities cesspools of crime and homelessness, and/or provide her with a policeman to escort her personally and another to guard her car in the parking lot.

If they get me on the phone, I will just say she sadly recently died of Covid.

RayAmerica says

Over and over again, plea deals were struck and the defendant was put on probation, only to repeat more criminal offenses and get funneled through the system.

If you haven't already, watch the movie "Law Abiding Citizen". Just be sure to turn if off 10min before the end and imagine the ending they should have wrote. You'll sleep like a baby.

It's a disappointing that so many decent, intelligent people use their abilities to get out of jury duty. These are the people you would want to have responsible for meting out justice in the system. Instead, we get the rejects, the imbeciles, the agenda-driven, and the dregs, forming the majority of juries.

It's no wonder you read about such travesties of justice being carried out so frequently.

Karloff says

It's a disappointing that so many decent, intelligent people use their abilities to get out of jury duty.

They tend to be the ones who get kicked off by pre-emptory challenges anyway.

Neither the defense nor prosecution want ppl with strong critical thinking skills on their juries.

Karloff says

Instead, we get the rejects, the imbeciles, the agenda-driven, and the dregs, forming the majority of juries.

That is why its ripe with woke jury nullification (aka: an OJ jury) , and the same jury will go unfairly hard on political targets of the Democrats.

/

Karloff says

It's a disappointing that so many decent, intelligent people use their abilities to get out of jury duty.

You're absolutely correct. But the corruption of the system draws scorn, even more over the last couple of years of fake elections and courts refusing to do their jobs. Why should I inconvenience myself in the least for a corrupt system?
I would find it interesting enough to be on a grand jury to do it, though. I was called once for a grand jury, intended to go, but left the notice in a drawer until it was too late when I found it again. Never heard a peep from them.

Karloff says

It's a disappointing that so many decent, intelligent people use their abilities to get out of jury duty.

Eh, it's easily fixable but it will never happen. The compensation is shit for most intelligent white collar people. It should be based on your last 2 years taxes. My wife is paid $800/day 365 days a year basically. I'm about $200/day during work days. IL pays $50/day for jury duty. Not hour, but day. I'm not working for anything less than what I make and neither is my wife.

They say you can't be fired from you job, but we all know that's bull shit. They can and will fire you at some point if you're on a long trial. If you run a small business with few employees or just yourself, it could go under if you're gone for a three week trial. There's every incentive NOT to go for most people. For the lunch lady or janitor it seems fine and is a change of pace. Nothing wrong with those people, but someone making $300k is going to make every effort to get out of it and I don't blame them.

Unless you're one of the lucky few that has an employer that continues to pay you while on JD, I'd piss my pants and show up plastered to get out of it. Bills gotta get paid and JD ain't gonna do it. Wear and tear on your vehicle, parking or ghetto public transit as Ceffer says. Until compensation changes you're never going to get the best jurors.

I'd also be wary of getting on a high profile case. Your life could literally be in jeopardy if you're dealing with a murder trial or famous person. I promise you the attorneys and people involved in that court room will all know who you are, where you live, what you do. It's simply not worth it at all. It's rare, but go ahead and put a person in jail for 10 years. I'd be watching my back as a juror on that case the rest of my life.

Because jury nullification is real. We have the ability to go outside the system and declare our own justice.

I don't get it. You guys will vote in worthless elections all day long, but when you are one of only 12 people, you pretend you have no say.

Update: I'm off the hook for Monday, but need to check back that evening to see about Tuesday. I think my son is coming down with a cold, so I might have to plead illness if I catch what he's got.

stereotomy says

Update: I'm off the hook for Monday, but need to check back that evening to see about Tuesday. I think my son is coming down with a cold, so I might have to plead illness if I catch what he's got.

1) Wear a mask
2) Tell em it might be Covid.
3) Watch everyone freak out.

I've been called to the jury pool numerous times in numerous courts around the bay area and just missed being selected a few times. My big takeaway is: Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate. And this is in the bay area!

SunnyvaleCA says

I've been called to the jury pool numerous times in numerous courts around the bay area and just missed being selected a few times. My big takeaway is: Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate. And this is in the bay area!

Waddya mean? Kaiser looks like a variation of the Darien Gap at times.

stereotomy says

given the chance, I'd exonerate someone like Rittenhouse

I watched a fair bit of the Rittenhouse trial. It was video taped and can be seen on youtube. Quite fascinating. The prosecution and fake-news media sure are a bunch of dishonest scum. For me, would be an easy decision to find not guilty. Rittenhouse basically made one bad (but not illegal) decision: If you're going to a place and think you need the protection of a gun, then you shouldn't go to that place unless absolutely necessary.

The people he shot, by comparison, have police records miles long and made dozens of bad decisions that single night. The person Rittenhouse shot in the arm, for example, was shot because he was pointing a pistol at Rittenhouse and charging at him to close the distance to where a pistol would be effective. I believe that genius was a prohibited possessor on account of multiple past felonies. In fact, he had been released from jail that very same morning! Amazing how quickly people can find trouble.

Ceffer says

SunnyvaleCA says

I've been called to the jury pool numerous times in numerous courts around the bay area and just missed being selected a few times. My big takeaway is: Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate. And this is in the bay area!

Waddya mean? Kaiser looks like a variation of the Darien Gap at times.

I go to the giant Kaiser in Santa Clara. Not even remotely close to the jury experience.

I've been cattle called multiple times in the past. The majority of the juror pool are morons, the rest are not, but those who can think are stricken from the pool, leaving only the morons. Overall, for the people who can think rationally/logically, and process legal procedure, it's a complete waste of time, because once you demonstrate your thinking skills, you are shitcanned from the jury, and have just wasted a day.

SunnyvaleCA says

Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate. And this is in the bay area!

Most don't work.

stereotomy says

because once you demonstrate your thinking skills, you are shitcanned from the jury, and have just wasted a day.

What do you do for a living?

Software Engineer

Ok...you are excused.

Trollhole says

SunnyvaleCA says

Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate. And this is in the bay area!

Most don't work.

More like: Most are incapable of (useful) work.

SunnyvaleCA says

Where do they find these prospective jurors? OMG most are mostly barely literate.

That is concerning, as jury pools are often selected from voter registrations.

Trollhole says

What do you do for a living?

Software Engineer

Ok...you are excused.

Didn't work for me: told them I was a scientist at a biotech company - maybe that's stupid though..

While selecting the defense asked me something along the lines of, "What I think". I don't recall exactly but I was trying to get out of it so I told him, "I think from what I've heard so far you've got an extremely hard job to try to convince me he's innocent"

Then the judge started yelling at me because we were told in the pre-view we weren't supposed to form opinions yet. I got selected.

I was able to get the jury to wrap up deliberations in under an hour though. One guy tried to hold out on innocence because he knows of bad cops in Oakland that frame people. (this was in San Mateo for an East Palo Alto crime)

But the idiot and his girlfriend kept speaking to each other about the crime over the jail phone that clearly stated it was being recorded and kept admitting to the crimes!

3rd strike too. (3 additional felonies after 2nd strike) He was fucked.

Got back to my regular job in about a week. Was sort of pissed off I had to be there mainly because even 15 years ago I realized CA was going down the tubes because of the Democrats..

In 15 years in the bay area I was summoned several times. In 10 years in San Diego 3 times. The last time was right before I moved to TX so I told them I wouldn't be living in CA when the trial happened (in return correspondence) but they kept mailing me shit in TX and I had to do it twice more. They were quite threatening too.

just_passing_through says

But the idiot and his girlfriend kept speaking to each other about the crime over the jail phone that clearly stated it was being recorded and kept admitting to the crimes!

3rd strike too. (3 additional felonies after 2nd strike) He was fucked.

Yeah, these types of criminals are not exactly the smartest tools in the shed. Dumber than your typical juror even.

just_passing_through says

Didn't work for me: told them I was a scientist at a biotech company

The lawyer likely though "Cool, all the biotech scientists I know are liberal enough to believe in masks and Covid shots, keep this one,"

I had jury duty earlier this year. I decided to do my civic duty and show up. It took a couple hours to get checked in and sworn and instructed and then they gave out assignments. Last time I did this, the jury pool room was utterly packed! This time I doubt it was a quarter full.
I got an assignment (civil trial), went to the courtroom, and waited.
And waited.
Finally the bailiff came out and said that the two parties had resolved the case and we were free to go.
Apparently, this is a common legal tactic. You threaten to go to court all the way, and when you follow through, suddenly the opposing side decides to be reasonable and the case gets settled.
Waste of my time.
But whatever.

Shaman says

I had jury duty earlier this year. I decided to do my civic duty and show up. It took a couple hours to get checked in and sworn and instructed and then they gave out assignments. Last time I did this, the jury pool room was utterly packed! This time I doubt it was a quarter full.
I got an assignment (civil trial), went to the courtroom, and waited.
And waited.
Finally the bailiff came out and said that the two parties had resolved the case and we were free to go.
Apparently, this is a common legal tactic. You threaten to go to court all the way, and when you follow through, suddenly the opposing side decides to be reasonable and the case gets settled.
Waste of my time.
But whatever.

That happened to me the last time I showed up, too. Only for a criminal trial. Dude raped a woman up against an ATM. Video caught it all. That's what we were told...and warned the footage would be graphic.

They were doing the selection. Then told us to go back to the waiting room and wait.

Later the judge came out and told us they took a plea.