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Not everyone can be smart. EV madness.


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2024 Jan 20, 2:37pm   1,537 views  55 comments

by GNL   ➕follow (1)   💰tip   ignore  

We Didn’t Start the Fire . . .
By eric -January 17, 2024



Putting out an EV fire is the other problem. One arising from the problem that EVs can – and do – catch fire spontaneously, which is a new problem.

It was once the case that a car didn’t catch fire unless someone else ran into it – or it ran into something else – at a speed high enough to puncture the gas tank and cause the sparks (from mashing metal) needed to ignite the leaking gas.

Cars didn’t just catch fire – while parked – unless someone put a lit rag in the gas filler neck.

EVs, on the other hand, can – and do – catch fire when parked. Maybe not often, but that is beside the point. People don’t often get AIDs, either. But it’s prudent to avoid situations where AIDs might be acquired.

https://youtu.be/itGeAq9rBeY?si=mppfpcgsXAeqJ_6Q

Just so, it is prudent to avoid situations that might lead to your house catching fire. As by leaving an EV parked in the garage. Or even in the driveway, for that matter – as EV fires burn extremely hot and are extremely difficult to extinguish.

This brings up another problem:Dealing with EV fires.

And paying for it all.

EV battery fires are not like ordinary fires, which can be extinguished with water and – once extinguished – are extinguished. EV battery packs are not only susceptible to spontaneous combustion, they are capable of spontaneous re-ignition. They also cause the emission of extremely toxic gasses – as opposed to the innocuous gas (carbon dioxide) arising from the burning (in an engine) of gasoline. We breath in C02 (along with oxygen and nitrogen) with every breath we take – with no harmful effects.

Breathe in some of the gasses emitted by an EV fire and see what it does to your health.

Ask a fireman about that.

They use heavy duty gear – including self-contained breathing systems – to avoid breathing the emissions of EV battery fires. Because they’d die if they didn’t.

And they have special, expensive additional equipment to deal with EV battery fires that can only be suppressed rather than extinguished. For example (as in the video above) a special blanket to wrap the EV in, so as to try to dampen the fire. The soldering hulk is then dragged onto a flatbed and convoyed – with escorts – to the junkyard, where it must be set as far away from the other junk that’s already there, in order to prevent the smoldering hulk from catching all of that on fire, too.

EVs can also catch fire – and keep burning – when exposed to water.

https://youtu.be/MocjA8G2saI?si=ByJZISnz_5Dy4VGD

Under water.

You can probably guess who’s going to pay for all of this.

Expect your property tax bill to go up (again) in order to provide the fire department in your town/county with the additional equipment it needs to deal with the problem of EV battery fires – arising from the EV problem of spontaneous combustion. In addition to the problem of EVs catching fire when struck in an accident, which they are more prone to because all that’s needed to start a runaway reaction is damage to the battery pack.

A spark – the second necessary factor in a gasoline fire – is not necessary for a conflagration.

Expect something else, too.

Expect your insurance – both car and home – to increase, even if you do not own an EV or park one anywhere near your home. The costs generated by those who do own them will be transferred over to you, just the same as the cost of throwing away an otherwise-repairable car that is an economic throw-away due to the cost of replacing multiple air bags relative to the value of the car, itself, is already reflected in the costs were forced to pay for the insurance we’re required to buy.

In addition to what we’re (effectively) forced to buy when we buy a new car equipped with the air bags we’re required to buy as part of the deal. It’s interesting to note that these “safety” devices also have a tendency to catch fire spontaneously – as when their “inflator” system spontaneously triggers and the bag blows up in the victim’s face.

The air bag risk can be reduced but never eliminated. Just the same as regards EV battery pack spontaneous combustion.

It is interesting that such risks are considered acceptable by the very same people who often insist that any risk they regard as “too risky” must be ameliorated by any means they say necessary, no matter how much it costs.

And no matter how little the gain.

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17   GNL   2024 Jan 21, 6:28pm  

RWSGFY says

I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?
18   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 6:30pm  

GNL says

RWSGFY says


I literally posted a link on a recall for self-combusting ICE cars with a recommendation to not park in a garage until modified by dealer.

Yes, they are harder to put out. No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.

Why can't the manufactuerers be sued into oblivion?


Not enough failures for that, apparently.
19   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Jan 21, 7:03pm  

RWSGFY says

Akshually

Did you attend K-12 in Oaktown?
20   Reality   2024 Jan 21, 8:14pm  

RWSGFY says


No, they are not supposed to self-ignite if engineered properly. No differenf from phones or laptops or batteries on planes.


Not quite the same from a purely engineering perspective: if each lithium battery has a 1 in a million chance of shorting out in a month, a laptop with 4 lithium cells would have only 1 in 250k chance . . . whereas an EV with 5000 cells would have 0.999999^5000 = 0.995 safety, or 1 in 200 chance of starting a fire (thermo run-away event), a ship transporting 100 EV's like that mixed in its cargo hold of thousands of cars would have only 60% chance of crossing the Atlantic or the Pacific (surviving one month at sea). The nature of the thermo run-away fire makes the system inherently unsafe when the large numbers pile up.

The above illustration only took into account risk associated with each lithium cell, not even taking into account the additional risks of each soldering point connecting lithium cells to each other or soldering debris left in the battery aggregate packs or cars' battery storage boxes.
21   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 10:43pm  

Making them from thousands of cells is an engineering choice. It's not set in stone that it has to be done this way.
22   AD   2024 Jan 21, 10:50pm  

RWSGFY says

Not enough failures for that, apparently.


yeah good point as far as class action lawsuit , i was thinking of ralph nader's book unsafe at any speed ... need him or his successors (if there are any) to write a book about EV's

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

.
23   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 12:33am  

ad says


problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

My dislike for EV's is people that say they're cheaper. I have no issue with Musk outside of being a massive government grifter in multiple industries. He wouldn't be able to do what he does without credits on products and literal cash from the government. He seems like a fun dude you could be friends with.

Depending on the model of Tesla you can get a similar sized car (or bigger) for $20-50k less. Say you finance it for 4 years or pay cash. In the financed scenario that's $5k/yr-$12.5k/yr on the high end instead of getting a hybrid. I drive a full ICE V-8 Nissan Armada. I spend maybe $3-4k on gas and it cost less than a Tesla. Has more utility and space. I know there will be a gas station, so no need to search for chargers. No need to worry about cold.

Now factor in something like a RAV-4 hybrid and my daily commute would be $0 in gas. You can get slightly used ones for $30k. I wouldn't qualify for the $7,500 tax credit due to income so full sticker price. Tesla mini "SUV" models are smaller and substantially more expensive.

There's not anything in this comment that can be denied. It's actual fact that Tesla owners just wanted a fun car to drive. And that's okay. I don't care, but I do care that the owners lie about the costs. It's simply not true. It will not be cheaper than a full ICE vehicle or hybrid. Never has. Gas savings are minimal and that's just for now.

For where a Tesla is best operated, it makes no sense to spend $20k+ versus comparable cars. Hell they don't even hold a charge in half the country this time of year. It's fun to drive and status. Plain and simple. It's not an argument. Just would appreciate owners would stop lying and just own up to their insecurities.
24   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Jan 23, 10:04pm  

WookieMan says

For where a Tesla is best operated, it makes no sense to spend $20k+ versus comparable cars. Hell they don't even hold a charge in half the country this time of year. It's fun to drive and status. Plain and simple. It's not an argument. Just would appreciate owners would stop lying and just own up to their insecurities.


Yup.
25   AD   2024 Jan 23, 11:08pm  

Need innovation like this. This is what Tesla envisioned and researched about "ambient energy" harvesting. Just need to refine and scale this up

https://news.mit.edu/2024/self-powered-sensor-harvests-magnetic-energy-0118
26   HeadSet   2024 Jan 24, 7:33am  

AD says

Need innovation like this. This is what Tesla envisioned and researched about "ambient energy" harvesting. Just need to refine and scale this up

https://news.mit.edu/2024/self-powered-sensor-harvests-magnetic-energy-0118

I had a pocket compass that did that. It harvested the "ambient energy" of the Earth's magnetic field to spin a needle to point north. I also built a "crystal radio" as a kid that pulled "ambient energy" from the strongest local radio broadcast to power listening to the station I chose (1920's tech). My point is that "ambient energy" is only good for very low power devices.
27   GNL   2024 Jan 24, 6:42pm  

It took three long years for Sickness Psychosis to wane. Eventually, enough people figured out that the sickness was mostly in the mind – and that wearing “masks” wasn’t the cure for it.

EV Fever seems to be following a similar trajectory. Finally. It may now be at the point that “masking” was at about two years ago. As in, people are getting over it. And so, apparently, is the stock market.

Tesla stock is down 15 percent, representing a $94 billion loss so far. Bloomberg News styles this a “reality check as EV winter sets in.” The Financial Post says 2024 is the company’s “worst start to any year – ever.”
29   AD   2024 Jan 24, 7:16pm  

GNL says

Tesla stock is down 15 percent, representing a $94 billion loss so far. Bloomberg News styles this a “reality check as EV winter sets in.” The Financial Post says 2024 is the company’s “worst start to any year – ever.”


yeah as the EV mania has waned ....so its steady growth from here on out ...

just look at retail stocks which have cooled down after the COVID consumer mania ... Best Buy all time high of about $137 was in late 2021, now it is around $73...

China exports have suffered a lot ...and its economy is in bad shape

...

...
30   AD   2024 Jan 24, 7:28pm  

HeadSet says


My point is


Just need more creativity and imagination to produce innovation as far as scaling up and advancing already existing technology within physics constraints like first law of thermodynamics ... material science and material engineering is most of the answer to this

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/easy-to-build-tesla-generator-free-energy-magnetic-capacitor--514395588692187043/

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/tesla-generator/

.
31   socal2   2024 Jan 24, 7:33pm  

GNL says

Tesla stock is down 15 percent, representing a $94 billion loss so far. Bloomberg News styles this a “reality check as EV winter sets in.” The Financial Post says 2024 is the company’s “worst start to any year – ever.”


The other OEM EV's are in trouble for sure. Tesla will be the last man standing as they are the only ones that have figured out how to make EV's at a profit. Their manufacturing/technology and battery production lead is unassailable. So Tesla has huge margins and can afford to drop their prices this past year to make up for higher interest rates and it's absolutely killing the old dinosaur OEM's trying to make EV's. So they are all backing away and bad mouthing it to the finance media.

Q4 earnings came out today and expect big drop in stock price tomorrow because moron CNBC finance media don't understand anything and hate Elon Musk.

I am buying MOAR at the dip.
32   WookieMan   2024 Jan 25, 5:19am  

I do like Tesla despite what seems like constant bashing from me. It’s a regional car that’s expensive compared to alternatives. They’re nearing market saturation. It doesn’t save money. Not green. Doesn’t work well in rural areas which is about 80% of America. It’s simply fun to drive and that’s it.

I don’t like stock predictions but I don’t see how Tesla can continue to sustain.

As I’ve said a day of reckoning is coming. This is from a deep blue green tard state/city…. https://www.chicago.gov/content/dam/city/depts/COFA/OtherReports/MFT.pdf
33   Tenpoundbass   2024 Jan 25, 5:35am  

I had an auto mechanic saying he's all for every car being electric one day.
By time I told him all of the reasons why they wont be, he was convinced otherwise. He tried to stop me, thinking the only negative thing I was going to say, is how hard the rare earth materials are to come by. But that one is the last one on my list. As we have 10 times more than China does, but it's locked up in National Parks like Yellow Stone.

It's a nice technology, that if it wasn't being shoe horned, it would be much more stable and practical. If you like electric cars, then you should get an electric car. They should not be subsidized, nor should every model be a spying smart luxury car.

The day electric cars become the only means, driving will no longer be a privilege but a class. A class that most people wont be a part of. They will dictate who gets to have or not have a car.
34   socal2   2024 Jan 25, 5:15pm  

Tenpoundbass says

It's a nice technology, that if it wasn't being shoe horned, it would be much more stable and practical. If you like electric cars, then you should get an electric car. They should not be subsidized, nor should every model be a spying smart luxury car.


No disagreement there.
35   zzyzzx   2024 Jan 26, 9:13am  

WookieMan says

I keep my golf cart parked outside, 20' from the house at closest. If it burns all I can do is let the battery burn the son of a bitch. Oh well. Better than my house and I technically wouldn't even need to call the fire department. I know the risk with an electric cart.


Swap out the lithium batteries for AGM batteries.
36   Eric Holder   2024 Jan 26, 11:06am  

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says


I keep my golf cart parked outside, 20' from the house at closest. If it burns all I can do is let the battery burn the son of a bitch. Oh well. Better than my house and I technically wouldn't even need to call the fire department. I know the risk with an electric cart.


Swap out the lithium batteries for AGM batteries.


He's just invested shitload of money into the lithiums. Swapping them again would be imprudent.
38   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 29, 3:39pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

https://realclearwire.com/articles/2024/01/28/so_many_problems_continue_to_plague_the_ev_industry_1007949.html


Of course 430mpg is baloney, because when renting Teslas my calculated fuel price per mile came out at 16 cents while Camry Hybrid was 13 cents per mile in fuel only. Camry Hybrid is not rated 400+ mpg, is it?
39   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Feb 7, 8:57am  

EVs are just a niche market.

(Tesla Fluffers HATE when this FACT is presented)

November, nearly 3,900 automobile dealers across the country sent a letter to President Biden telling him that EV demand is “not keeping up with the large influx of BEVs arriving at our dealerships prompted by the current regulations. BEVs are stacking up on our lots." They continued, saying EVs are “not selling nearly as fast as they are arriving at our dealerships.”

As I explained in the written testimony I submitted to the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee last month, EVs have always been a niche-market product, not a mass-market one. And that niche market is dominated by wealthy, white, male, liberal voters who live in a handful of heavily Democratic cities and counties.
Further, that niche market is primarily defined by class and ideology. Some 57% of EV owners earn more than $100,000 annually, 75% are male, and 87% are white. Last March, Gallup reported, “a substantial majority of Republicans, 71%, say they would not consider owning an electric vehicle.”

Last October, researchers at the University of California, Berkeley, released a remarkable study that found “counties with affluent left-leaning cities” like Cambridge, San Francisco, and Seattle “play a disproportionately large role in driving the entire national increase in EV adoption.” The researchers found that over the past decade, about half of all the EVs sold in the U.S. were sold in the most heavily Democratic counties in the country. The summary of the study deserves quoting at length:
The prospect for EVs as a climate change solution hinges on their widespread adoption across the political spectrum. In this paper, we use detailed county-level data on new vehicle registrations from 2012-2022 to measure the degree to which EV adoption is concentrated in the most left-leaning U.S. counties. The results point to a strong and enduring correlation between political ideology and U.S. EV adoption. During our time period about half of all EVs went to the 10% most Democratic counties, and about one-third went to the top 5%. There is relatively little evidence that this correlation has decreased over time, and even some specifications that point to increasing correlation. The results suggest that it may be harder than previously believed to reach high levels of U.S. EV adoption.” (Emphasis added.)

Ford and the other big automakers have been spending billions of dollars to cater to the whims of a tiny segment of the overall car market — a segment heavily concentrated in a handful of liberal counties. That’s a lousy business strategy. But it is an even worse strategy for federal policymakers who must be responsive to the transportation needs of every American, not just those who live in liberal cities and large, wealthy states

In October, the chairman of Toyota Motor Corporation, Akio Toyoda, gloated about his company’s success with hybrids and the friction other automakers face in the EV business. Toyoda said automakers are "finally seeing reality" about all-electric cars. Unfortunately for Ford and its shareholders, finally seeing reality comes with multi-billion-dollar losses.

A final note: Ford’s EV sales in January fell by 11% compared to the same period last year. There’s more carnage ahead for FoMoCo.


https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/ford-lost-47b-on-evs-last-year-or
40   GNL   2024 Feb 7, 8:12pm  

https://www.theburningplatform.com/2024/02/07/the-plunge-begins/

"Hertz just shot off the flares. It will not be “fully electrified” by 2024 – as it had said it would be back in 2020. It is already much less “electrified.” Hertz may have closed the water tight doors just in time."
41   AD   2024 Feb 8, 12:13am  

I think Tesla will still be standing, but as posted on Patrick.net, the major automakers are downsizing their EV manufacturing.

I think Tesla is going to be improving steadily such as providing up to 600 miles range for even the cheapest of its EV's, the Tesla 3. And this will happen with Tesla still using lithium batteries.

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.
42   WookieMan   2024 Feb 8, 3:29am  

Eric Holder says

He's just invested shitload of money into the lithiums. Swapping them again would be imprudent.

This is correct. Free cart and AGM batteries weren't a ton cheaper. So the expense was kind of nothing. It's quick with less weight. I can zip around town for pennies. It's nice during the warmer months to get around to the grocery store, gas station and neighbors. Still use it to get the mail in winter at our CBU. I like being outside and fresh air.

I'll trash EV's all day for various reasons. They're cheaper on paper. The government is coming for them though. You can't use the roads for free basically. I don't know the rates everywhere, but isn't is something like 20¢/gallon in most places for gas? It's nothing, but I'll save $200/yr not driving my cart around town. 10 year warranty on the battery.

I've got two lots 3 blocks away. So much easier to use the cart to get there. Still have to drive the car and mower over there, but we'e gonna start our garden of the future over there now as we build. It's going to be big. So a daily trip is easy with the cart.
44   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 12:54am  

AD says

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.


I doubt this. Hydrogen fuel cells are a very poor way to store energy. First, it's not made by cracking water into oxygen and hydrogen, it's using steam reformation where natural gas is turned into CO2 and Hydrogen in a process. Second, hydrogen is expensive. Third, it's freaking hard to store, that stuff is reactive, very reactive. Put it under pressure on a steel cylinder, and that cylinder will get brittle in time.

Using electrolysis to break water into hydrogen and oxygen seems like a good idea, until you realize it's only 50% efficient. Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule, and as I said, highly reactive so hard to store.

Another problem is compressing it, THAT takes a lot of energy as well. It's like 5 times more expensive than gas per unit of energy as well.
45   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 31, 7:59am  

richwicks says

Put it under pressure on a steel cylinder, and that cylinder will get brittle in time.


And the little fucker Hydrogen atoms can slip through the steel molecules. So, leakage losses.
46   HeadSet   2024 Mar 31, 8:49am  

richwicks says

Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule

?? Isn't hydrogen the smallest possible molecule? An H2 molecule has only 2 hydrogen atoms, each with only one proton and one electron.
47   Tenpoundbass   2024 Mar 31, 9:33am  

EV enthusiasts : Of Course EVs will be expense at first! But the idea is for everyone to adopt them so the price will eventually come down. I don't mind being an early adopter.

Also EV enthusiasts : What the fuck my $65K EV is now only worth $20K

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says





48   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 10:39am  

HeadSet says

richwicks says


Hydrogen has GREAT energy density in terms of kg/joule - better than just about anything, but it's bulky because it's a large molecule

?? Isn't hydrogen the smallest possible molecule? An H2 molecule has only 2 hydrogen atoms, each with only one proton and one electron.


Nope, it's got the lowest density of any molecule or atom, that's why it floats. It floats better than helium does, but its highly reactive.

You've seen the periodic table:



On the left, atoms are as big as they can be, and they get smaller going to the right, but they explode in size on the far right. On the far right are the noble. I think only helium is more dense than the element on the far right.

Basically, every element has one more proton than the element preceding it. Picks up neutrons as well, so as you move down, it gets denser and denser.

A chemist or a physicist can explain why better than I can.
49   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 31, 11:19am  

Hydrogen's reactivity IS WHERE the energy comes from. Oxidation in particular.
50   richwicks   2024 Mar 31, 11:26am  

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Hydrogen's reactivity IS WHERE the energy comes from. Oxidation in particular.


Sure, but it's damned reactive. It makes metal brittle over time, so how do you contain the damned stuff?

It sure seemed like a good idea back when I was a kid to use hydrogen to store excess electricity for later use, but it turns out to be a terrible way of doing it
51   RWSGFY   2024 Mar 31, 8:21pm  

AD says


I think Tesla will still be standing, but as posted on Patrick.net, the major automakers are downsizing their EV manufacturing.

I think Tesla is going to be improving steadily such as providing up to 600 miles range for even the cheapest of its EV's, the Tesla 3. And this will happen with Tesla still using lithium batteries.

I read Toyota and Volkwagen are going the hydrogen fuel cell route (not lithium batteries) for their EV's.


Toyota is into 2nd gen
of their H2 fuel cell cars and it's not looking good: they are giving $22-40K discount on every new one and throw in $15K fuel card. Even used ones come with the card. There is a 2019 Mirai with 30K miles on the clock being sold as CPO for $9K at the local dealer and it comes with a $15K card. And it's eligible for $4K in Fed tax rebates plus whatever is CA giving out ($2K?).

BTW, at current hydrogen fuel prices $15K gives you ~30K miles.
52   WookieMan   2024 Apr 1, 3:04am  

Love or hate the car, but Toyota did get it right with the Prius. Not practical for my uses, but hybrids were and are the future. You need gas. That's undeniable. You cannot charge a battery quickly.

Wife is about to drive down to St. Louis area. She'd have to stop and charge and waste an hour to finish the trip. She grosses $913/hr in sales likely this year. 365 days, every hour. That hour charging cost $900. Who cares if it's free? That would be $60 in gas and maybe $30 in time. You're talking a $700-800 difference in time savings. AND you paid more for the car than her SUV. An EV would easily cost my family $10k more than an ICE. So maybe I'm biased.

I don't get the argument over this. EV's are shit unless you drive 10-20 miles a day and charge at home. I guess my opinion is based off our driving habits. No EV on the market would remotely work for us without losing tons of money.
54   socal2   2024 Apr 2, 6:32pm  

WookieMan says

EV's are shit unless you drive 10-20 miles a day and charge at home.


That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

Hybrids are still retarded with twice the complexity and twice the maintenance and things to go wrong compared to straight up BEV's - they are not much cheaper and you don't get the massive performance of a Tesla. I don't drive Tesla's to save gas or be environmental. I drive them because they are the most powerful and advanced car I can afford. How is that not understandable? I can't afford a comparable Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

I spend alot of time driving - life's too short to drive something boring or weak if you have some options.
55   UkraineIsTotallyFucked   2024 Apr 2, 7:40pm  

socal2 says

That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

Hybrids are still retarded with twice the complexity and twice the maintenance and things to go wrong compared to straight up BEV's - they are not much cheaper and you don't get the massive performance of a Tesla. I don't drive Tesla's to save gas or be environmental. I drive them because they are the most powerful and advanced car I can afford. How is that not understandable? I can't afford a comparable Porsche, BMW, Mercedes or Audi.

I spend alot of time driving - life's too short to drive something boring or weak if you have some options.



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