patrick.net

The classics are more worth reading than most recent writers. I have read Marcus Aurelius but it has been a while. Never read much the others, except some loose sentences. I like the medieval mystics, read Rumi, and several others. St John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila. Also read some Inayat Khan, Tagore, and absolutely love the Tao Te Ching. That gets read a lot more than the bible (which has not been opened in a very long time but do not tell my christian friends LOL)

Ingrid says

I have read Marcus Aurelius but it has been a while.

Yes, me too. I forgot that Marcus was a Stoic as well. I really liked his "Meditations" though parts of it were hard to follow.

Cognitive behavioral therapy is a lot like stoicism. First, you learn to perceive what sets you off. Then you practice pausing to think about what you're experiencing as opposed to immediately reacting. At the end of it, you're able to perceive, interpret, and then act, as opposed to perceive/react.

CBT is like anything else. If you find someone competent or good at the craft, it's really good. Otherwise, it's more harmful than good.

Yes, I just read that CBT is like Stoicism. Basically, just think about and choose your reaction.

Interesting read on MA and meaning for today.
https://www.city-journal.org/article/a-manual-for-adversity

I'm sorry Patrick, I've been reading some of the letters but I'm very busy and have gotten lazy in these endeavors. But I figured I'd share the GPT4 analysis of this wrt Libertarian thinking and got this:

The "Moral Letters to Lucilius" by Seneca, a Stoic philosopher, offer insights that can be particularly resonant with libertarian perspectives. Libertarians, who champion individual liberty, minimal state intervention, and personal responsibility, may find several of Seneca's points especially compelling:

Self-Reliance and Individual Responsibility: Seneca emphasizes the importance of self-control, personal ethics, and the development of one's character through reason. He advocates for individuals to take responsibility for their own lives, a core tenet of libertarian thought.

Critique of Excessive Government and Wealth: While not against wealth per se, Seneca criticizes the blind pursuit of riches and power, suggesting a life of virtue and simplicity is more desirable. Libertarians might appreciate his skepticism towards excessive government and the accumulation of wealth for its own sake, seeing it as a critique of state overreach and materialism.

Freedom from External Control: Seneca discusses the importance of mental freedom and autonomy, arguing that true freedom comes from within and is not dependent on external circumstances. This idea resonates with the libertarian emphasis on personal freedom and resistance to coercion.

Natural Law and Universal Reason: Seneca's Stoicism posits a universal law governed by reason, which aligns with some libertarian views on natural rights and the rational nature of human beings. The idea that moral principles are accessible through reason can support libertarian arguments for individual rights and justice.

Peaceful Living and Non-aggression: Seneca advises against causing harm to others and promotes living in harmony. This principle is akin to the libertarian non-aggression principle, which opposes the initiation of force against others.

Importance of Liberty for Personal Growth: Seneca's letters suggest that personal growth and enlightenment are achieved through the exercise of one's rational faculties, which requires the freedom to think, act, and speak without undue restraint. Libertarians would likely see this as an argument for the protection of individual liberties as essential for human development.

While Seneca's Stoicism and libertarianism are not perfectly aligned—given the Stoic emphasis on virtue ethics and the acceptance of one's place in the world—the themes of individual autonomy, critique of excess, and the importance of reason and personal ethics resonate with libertarian ideals of freedom, responsibility, and minimal state intervention.

@ThatGuy That summary sounds about right to me.

@richwicks

The Stoic book club is meeting again tonight at Feldman's books in Menlo Park at 6pm.

They're going to talk about Epictetus, but you don't have to have read anything to join.

Stoa of Attalos in Athens, rebuilt authentically (from marble) in the 1950s

Patrick says

richwicks

The Stoic book club is meeting again tonight at Feldman's books in Menlo Park at 6pm.

They're going to talk about Epictetus, but you don't have to have read anything to join.

I'll do some reading this weekend. I can read a couple of books per week. I can get any book.

We run away from pain. Seeking and running towards uncomfortable is a good way of building one's own strength. Like that image of with the lady and the crow.

Stoicism blurs the line between suppressing much needed mental reaction and stimuli, and not letting life stress you out.

On one hand pent up stress can be fatal to you in the long run, not letting shit bother you and rolling with the punches can give you years of life.
Also you're meddling with your fight or flight responses that we have evolved to keep us somewhat safe. apathetic stoics probably don't live as long as curious worry warts.

I think the main goal of Stoicism is peace of mind through wisdom and virtue. If you know how things really are and you do the right thing as much as possible, much of life's trouble evaporates.

I would love to go through life with Buster Keaton's facial expression. He remained stoic no matter how much things went to hell around him.
Not to say he was emotionless. He expressed his situational awareness through body language, while never cracking a smile, grimacing, or exclamation.

Personality type plays so much into this. The thing is, as one comedian says “for thousands of years the only people who could have children were ones who could hunt for food, build shelter, and hunt for saber toothed tigers”. Logic based and other related personality types ruled the day. The emo personalities did not.

Cue modern society and all of the sudden you don’t need to build and construct with your hand and someone else kills and harvests your food. So emo personalities explode and reproduce. The onset of the internet now gives ALL of those emo personality types a very loud voice. And we have what we have.

Right, but it was the men who were doing that hunting and building.

The emo personalities are the women, mostly.

Patrick says

Right, but it was the men who were doing that hunting and building.

The emo personalities are the women, mostly.

Lots…lots of men are emo types. More much younger than us.

True, most Western men have become pathetically feminized.

Patrick says

True, most Western men have become pathetically feminized.

If by this you mean feminized = usesless, then even women have become largely usesless.

There was some graduation party for a niece of mine. We as a family went. Later on in the evening, my brother brought firewood and was having trouble starting the fire. My then 12-year old son helped him set up the kindling properly and soon the fire was burning. My brother was impressed with my son's fire-tending skills (something women used to be able to do back in the day).

Then my niece and her slut friends start dancing around the fire, lighting sparklers and such. The ground catches fire, and they keep prancing oblivious. My son notices, stamps the fire out, makes sure everything is OK, as a responsible adult would, except he's 12, they're 17 and 18, and where are the fucking parents?

Now, the place that my brother had that party doesn't allow fires anymore.

THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.

Wealth consists not in having great possessions, but in having few wants.
~
Epictetus