patrick.net

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

In the 1950’s, an average dude on the basis of a factory job could buy a home, cars, and put his kids through college.

I’d say we have been in a boiling-the-frog depression defined by a plummeted standard of living. Two parents working full time can’t match the 1950’s dude’s standard of living.

there is a book about that called THE TWO INCOME TRAP

komputodo says

THE TWO INCOME TRAP

more wives joining the work force equated to more demand from dual income households which then drove up the price of housing

anyone who owned housing before this economic trend started made a lot of money

seems like a negative feedback loop as the more this occurs, the more new households seeking to buy their first home have to go to dual income from single income since the supply of affordable houses decreases (due to increased demand for housing from dual income households)

examine the NAR's housing affordability index

all of this of course exacerbated by local politics like in California with the Asian (and White Liberal) Tiger Moms families fighting the construction of any new affordable housing which could impact local public school test scores and quality

also building code makes it more expensive to build as well as builders do not want to build affordable housing since they cannot make enough profit (unless they get subsidized by the government and / or Non Profits / NGOs)

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Turd worldism.

AD says

also building code makes it more expensive to build as well as builders do not want to build affordable housing since they cannot make enough profit (unless they get subsidized by the government and / or Non Profits / NGOs)

And developers and Realtors(tm)(R) combine to ban small houses and RVs or reasonably sized lots to force people to rent or buy.

The ladder kickers lived in RVs on 1 acres well outside the town (then a mere 20 minute drive), slowly built their house as they paid no rent and minimal property tax, with the much more modest zoning and code, and once it was built, turned around and demanded nobody be able to live in an RV in the whole county whether it was half an acre or 5 acres to protect their "Home Value"

This was done for decades until about the 1980s when the Yuppies started kicking the ladder down behind them

The real knee slapper is Dave Ramsey, who you'd think would be all over this idea as a great way to 'live small until your build your main asset up".

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

In the 1950’s, an average dude on the basis of a factory job could buy a home, cars, and put his kids through college.

Agree, but they lived a much lower lifestyle than today. The house of that factory worker or Esso station manager was typically a sub 1000 sq ft house with 2-3 bedrooms and only one bath. No A/C, and often just a central space heater. 50-amp service with a fuse box. Also, one TV and one phone. Clothes were expensive, so Mom had a sewing machine and made the kids garments using patterns she would trade with neighbors. Sox were "darned" when they got holes. Clothes that were bought, like coats, were handed down to younger children, even neighbor children. Food was expensive also, so most moms knew 100 ways to cook hamburger, can, and maximize leftovers. Meatloaf was a once-a-week treat. Despite having regular milkman deliveries, kids often drank powdered milk. Only one car, and even if full sized, had a manual transmission like "3 on the tree," had no A/C, no power brakes or power steering, crank windows, and often no radio and no heater. No seatbelts, and an engine that required a "tune up" every few months that involved a new distributor cap, new points, reset timing and new plugs. And even that simple car would be ready for the junkyard long before 70,000 miles. Nobody had a dryer, it was all clotheslines.

A single mom today living in a trailer park and driving a 10 year old car has a far more luxurious lifestyle than that working family of the 50s and early 60s.

HeadSet says

Meatloaf was a once-a-week treat.

Meat consumption was 2-3lb per person throughout the 20th Century, declined during the Depression but increasing after WW2. I saved the chart somewhere, I'll post it.

I dislike comparing Economy of Scale changes because Hedonics is a trick to conceal the vast increase in the iron costs of living since Globaloney. Iron Costs = Unavoidable. You can delay a new laptop, or drive stick instead of auto, but you have to live somewhere and buy groceries.

Food Quality is certainly way down. Mayo went from real egg Whites to nutshrinking soy oil starting in the 90s. The tiniest jar of real mayo sets you back $10 now. Big Agra also got "Imitiation" or "Sandwich Spread" switched to "Mayo" even though I'm pretty sure the French Chef who invented it centuries ago didn't make it with soybean oil.

Housing stock - esp. surburban - in the 1950s was mostly brand spanking new. Not 30, 50+ years old like today.

None of this explains how we had half a dozen Century-Shattering massive efficiency gainz each one on par with the railroad or diesel engine in 70 years but there's almost no way an Esso Manager can afford even a former Shotgun Shack Crackhouse on the bad side of town in 90% of the country that used to be occupied by an alcoholic ditch digger and his family of 5. They go for $200k in Central Florida and almost all of them are teardowns. Also, chances are Factory Worker/Gas Station Manager got a new postwar built one, not a 70-year old one.

Median Home Prices are now 6X the median household income and over 8X the median personal income ($50k), so even a man who makes the median household income ($70k) by himself is going way beyond 3x income, it's not even a stretch at 4x income, making traditional 50s families with mom at home impossible. The Econoalchemist line to "buy a smaller house" doesn't work because there haven't been any modest homes built in decades, only zero lot monsters, McMansions, and Condos. The number of tiny homes is something like 20k total stock and those run barely 300-500 sq ft and meant for a single person or Couples in the first year or two of a relationship who fuck all night.

What's left is crackhouses or HUD housing in the hood where a guy with a job would be stabbed to death his first night in it.

And of course, a Gas Station Manager or Store Assistant Manager or other Service/White Collar didn't have $50k+ in college debt in the 1950s, either. Hell, well into the 80s most bank loan officers were just Tellers who worked there a while, and almost none of them had any degree whatsoever, just a HS Diploma and not confused by numbers.

And that was back in the day of triplicate forms, where the typewriter or hand pressed carbon copy sheet didn't prompt: "Did you mean $400,000, not $4,000,000?" for a fat finger.

Beef consumption is actually down almost 10% from 1960: 63lb in 1960 vs. 58lb in 2023. Pork is down almost 20%. So 30% down for "Red Meat" which the USDA calls Beef and Pork together. Though Chicken is up ~30% to compensate and surprisingly, Seafood doubled from 10lb to about 20lb, but that's in a whole year.

https://www.nationalchickencouncil.org/about-the-industry/statistics/per-capita-consumption-of-poultry-and-livestock-1965-to-estimated-2012-in-pounds/

USDA:


BTW those Chickens aren't fed hormones to be so much larger; it's actually a breeding trick and it skips a generation; the birds that aren't sized for supermarkets go to pet food or chicken filler for fast food.

Senator McGovern, who was a newly converted Pritikin Carb Looney, pushed the "We ate more veggies" narrative in the 1970s. But it wasn't true:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/how-americans-used-to-eat/371895/

Dammit, can't find the chart, I know I saved it in the past few weeks. But I remember it was about half a pound a day/person around 1900.

EUREKA! Last sperg post for the night:



We eat about the same amount of Red Meat as we did in the 50s, but a lot more Poultry. The 60s-80s were Beef Fiestas. Then Globalization came.

The solution is simple: Ban beef exports to the Turd World and make beef cheap again. Ranchers and Meatpackers did just fine 1950-1990, in fact they were rolling in dough - or maybe gristle.

AmericanKulak says

We eat about the same amount of Red Meat as we did in the 50s, but a lot more Poultry.

"Love That Chicken From Popeyes"

Then not only do you got Popeyes, KFC, Church's Chicken, Chick Fil A, then you got wing joints like Hooters and Wings n Things.

And Publix has a good deal on rotisserie chicken.

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HeadSet says

A single mom today living in a trailer park and driving a 10 year old car has a far more luxurious lifestyle than that working family of the 50s and early 60s

and yet they consider themselves poor and unsuccessful.

Most of these perks of today are lifestyle chlices, not quality of life issues. You don't need an AC (sure it's nice to have in some areas), central heating is fine. Phone and TV, who cares. We still hand down clothes. Food wasn't expensive, but families simply didn't spend as much on food as people do today, so they can get out of debt or achieve other goals. We could have afforded to throw away scraps every single day, but we finished our plates or ate it the next day. Sure there was good progress in technology, cars etc. but at the end of the day only one worker was required. Also I would peg the best decades the 70s and 80s, not 50s and 60s. My grandparents cooked meat every day, wasn't rare at all.

HeadSet says

A single mom today living in a trailer park and driving a 10 year old car has a far more luxurious lifestyle than that working family of the 50s and early 60s.

The tragedy of single mothers notwithstanding, for the most part what you describe doesn’t exist. That is to say it is ridiculous to claim that a welfare queen compares at all to one income working household from the 50’s and 60’s. Not to mention the welfare queen is not saving for retirement or building equity in her house. It is just daft bloviating.

PeopleUnited says

The tragedy of single mothers notwithstanding, for the most part what you describe doesn’t exist. That is to say it is ridiculous to claim that a welfare queen compares at all to one income working household from the 50’s and 60’s. Not to mention the welfare queen is not saving for retirement or building equity in her house. It is just daft bloviating.

Odd that you think all single mothers living in a trailer are on welfare. I was referring to people like my cousin's kid, who manages a Dollar Store and has a trailer on a rural half-acre lot. That home has central heat and air, washer and dryer, flat screen TV, and is a comfortable place. She has an older car, but unlike the during the 50s, the car is reliable and has automatic transmission, power windows and locks, good entertainment, and will last several more years.

HeadSet says

my cousin's kid, who manages a Dollar Store and has a trailer on a rural half-acre lot.

She might be more successful than this guys mom.


But it’s ridiculous to compare them with this. And if you do, this is definitely a higher quality of life.

HeadSet says

trailer on a rural half-acre lot.

While the lot might slowly appreciate, the trailer only Depreciates with time, so it's not comparable to a 1000 sq ft Levittown owned by a 50s-60s family. Those are much closer to the City and going for half a million on up easy, I mean in cities NOT in California.

Have you seen the price of a 10 year old Civic with well over 120k miles? $9k is considered a GOOD price. How long would a teen working at $11/hr, 20 hours a week - already over half again the federal minimum wage, need to work to buy one? Getting on a whole year, if they didn't go out with friends to buy a burger or see a movie. Just going to a movie and having a fast food lunch on a Saturday afternoon once a week ($25 minimum) would make it an entire year.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT!!! I haven't been to the movies since 2011. Tickets are $17 in the burbs now! Make that $25 minimum if you don't buy any popcorn or soda or candy and McD's still has the $5 value meal and your state's sales tax is well below 10%. And the teen has no girlfriend.
Great Thunderballs of Jove! It'd be like $60 just to take the kids and myself to a movie. Hot Damn!!!

The published monthly car loan is now given in 72 months, not 48 or 60, btw. Although the big car price collapse is already here. Solantra is truly fucked for misgauging the market with $100k+ trucks and SUVs. Some of the big ones are going on 300 days at the lot.

The house depreciates with time just like the trailer does. Hopefully if the construction is better it depreciates at a lower rate.

The land is the only thing that appreciates unless remodeling, additions, etc are poured into the dwelling. For the most part cities/suburban land price increases have far outdistanced price increases in rural areas.

There is no guarantee that this trend will continue.

Misc says

The house depreciates with time just like the trailer does.

You'd agree though that a 20-year old Trailer, even the best cared for and well built, is going to be a lot more beat up than a 20-year old house. I think the latter will start needing a new roof, but Trailer will have had major roof fixes by 20 years in 'on the hard'. Especially outside low-humidity areas.

I also know that manufactured homes have a much lower cost going in.

Misc says

I also know that manufactured homes have a much lower cost going in.

And depreciate faster as well. If very well maintained and a good build, they can go. But if somebody said "Sight unseen, you want your typical mfg house or trailer after 20-30 years, or do you want a typical Florida CBS built in the 1950s or 60s, I'd take the latter."

Mfg homes have definitely improved though. I forgot the year but someboy told me if it was built before some year before the 70s or early 80s, walk away. The code for them was completely changed and the ones past that date have far fewer problems and hazards.

Just FYI my first car was a 1981 Ford Econoline with 60k miles I brought in 1993... for $700. It literally took me two months of P/T work at the minimum wage to buy it, including plates and registration.

I mentioned depreciation rates in my post.

The average lifespan of a house in the United States is between 50 and 63 years, from construction to demolition. - Oct 13, 2023

Those are for the crap that builders were making post WWII. Much of our housing stock was designed to be torn down and rebuilt.

Misc says

Those are for the crap that builders were making post WWII. Much of our housing stock was designed to be torn down and rebuilt.

I dunno. The NYC (now arguably not so) Surburban area is jam packed with 60-70+ year old modest 50s era houses in good shape, and they go for at least half a million and up. NJ and Philly area similar.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/54-S-1st-St-Bethpage-NY-11714/31290542_zpid/

Another some street for comparison
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/58-S-1st-St-Bethpage-NY-11714/31290541_zpid/

Who lived in these homes when they were first built? Not a doctor or lawyer, but Patrick O'Malley the Lamp Manufacturing Company shift supervisor or his coworker Solomon Schwartz the Payroll Clerk. And they brought them before they turned 30 years old.

Funniest I have heard about were homes built in Tempe, Arizona during the 60s. The home builders to save costs used paper pipes coated with tar for the sewage line running from the houses to the city line. They were supposed to last for 30 years.

Things have literally gone to shit. The houses still sell for about $400k.

This was for 10s of thousands of homes.

As far as NYC goes, the homeownership rate is 30%. The wealth disparity is immense. You cannot have a kid in public school with good conscience.

Misc says

As far as NYC goes, the homeownership rate is 30%. The wealth disparity is immense. You cannot have a kid in public school with good conscience.

This is Nassau county, so outside NYC jurisdiction.

Yes, after the Depression of the 30s a crap shack in the suburbs looked like paradise. Still nothing like the houses they built prior to the Depression. So, the DoD sold Americans on suburbia because having the population spread out made for less casualties during a nuclear war. Now it takes hundreds and hundreds of nukes to completely take out a major city. By providing financing, it gave the peasants something to work for. If not for this and Social Security, the country probably would've gone communist.

Over 1 million volunteers were turned down for the armed services in WWII because of the ravishes of malnutrition.

The standard of living has dropped from even those humble times of the 50s-60s.

Don't get me wrong. Some things have improved, but affordability of housing, healthcare, and schooling and social cohesion...not so much.

Misc says

Don't get me wrong. Some things have improved, but affordability of housing, healthcare, and schooling and social cohesion...not so much.

I think it doesn't matter if a TV is lgbtq1080hd+ and weights only 10lb instead of 30lb, or a laptop is $800 instead of $1500, if a half century-old house brought new by a correction officers' single income, now takes two gay dentists with multiple six figure incomes to be the same income multiple it was when brought new by Officer Slapdown, and the property taxes are now a federal minimum wage F/T job equivalent.

We need Elon at Twitter in our whole economy, starting with 70% of admin jobs. Not just government, but private too. If 70% of the management both private and public disappeared, nobody would notice. In fact I think things would be done faster, easier, and more cheaply. With boomers retiring, it's a great opportunity to only replace 1 of every 4 retiring. Of course, we'd have to axe mass migration too and make 10Ms self deport, but that would be easily, just have the government stop giving benefits to migrant employers and paying landlords for migrant housing. Sheriffs will be busy.

The USAF still has plenty of Globemasters, Hercules, and Galaxies that can hold many people and fly far. Just sayin'

It's time for Immigration REFORGER! Except to Venezuela and Mexico, not West Germany.

If you think that Whites have had it bad...the illiteracy rate for Blacks in 1979 was 1.6%. Today 85% of Black youth are illiterate.

https://nces.ed.gov/naal/lit_history.asp

https://thehill.com/opinion/education/579750-many-of-americas-black-youths-cannot-read-or-do-math-and-that-imperils-us/

Good luck with finding any meaningful work.

Just wait until you see the property insurance rates nationwide this year. I'm hearing 20% in most states. Even though we'rebelow the number of average predicted natural disasters for the past decade or so. Stealth bailout of commercial Real Estate? Insurance company's favorite investment that is doing very poorly. Disguised Depression with borrowing and dumping costs on Joe 6-pack.

Misc says

Good luck with finding any meaningful work.

You won’t hire people that can’t read? You racist!

AmericanKulak says

While the lot might slowly appreciate, the trailer only Depreciates

They are not investors. What they want is a paid for home they can retire in. They like the area they live in and do not want to move. While the 1950s home was swelteringly hot during the summer (especially while using a 50s era "Mississippi" stove), her manufactured home is nicely air conditioned. Also her home has a more luxurious bath and more functional kitchen than the 50s worker's home. And as you mentioned in a later post, the manufactured homes build in the last 2 decades are much better than the tin cans of the 70s. I have another cousin who had a double wide for a while (his ex got it). That double wide was quite nice inside, just no upstairs and no attic Extremely solid floors. He built a very large garage next to it.

HeadSet says

While the 1950s home was swelteringly hot during the summer (especially while using a 50s era "Mississippi" stove),

open front door and back door if shotgun shack and run fan at entrance to blow air toward the back door

keep shades down to prevent solar heating inside

this is if there were no air condition window units (after the 1950s, such a 1970s) ; the key is to circulate fresh air to reduce mildew and mold risks

use to live in a cape cod home up North in summers of 1970s and it had 3 window units for air conditioners (cranked high fan setting and at lowest temp setting) along with table fans near them to circulate the cool air ; at least kept it around 76 degrees inside if it was +90 degrees outside

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HeadSet says

I was referring to people like my cousin's kid, who manages a Dollar Store and has a trailer on a rural half-acre lot.

Maybe it's a geographical difference, but to me trailer means "Pulled by a Truck" and is a kind of RV sold by Forest River or Winebago and made to be moved around constantly by grandpa in retirement to different concrete pads, and a Mfg Home has many fabricators, comes in single wide, double wide, etc. and is installed on a foundation onsite and pretty much stays there except in extrenuating circumstances.

Most places in the country where there are any kind of jobs, counties have pretty much banned living in Trailers, even on 5 acre plots. At the request of Relators, Developers, County Officials, and Second Vacation Home owners in order to keep property values puffed up for tax and commish purposes.

In Florida it's generally not allowed unless you're lucky enough to find a "General" zoned property or some other older, uncommon zoning. There's an area west of St Augustine and some very low population (20k whole county) places in the curve of the panhandle (ie Dixie or Gilchrist Counties) you can do it, but those places are in bad, bad economic shape and you're looking at a minimum 1 hour commute to any job or stores above the minimum, as well as any medical or hospital facilities.

In most of Florida, you can camp without electric, sewer, or water for up to 14 days on property you own. Otherwise you are forbidden from hooking up a Trailer except for repairs or cleaning. Some counties allow up to (1) year of living in a trailer but your have to get a license to do so and submit your building plans for a mfg or other house. Almost nowhere can you live F/T in a trailer except in a handful of legacy zoned areas. The only exception is 20 (TWENTY) acres of agra land, where you're allowed to one RV per 20 acres.

It used to be much easier to find zoned land for RV/Trailers, but with the expansion of the suburb came the expansion of "Muh Property Values" and ladder kicking by Silents and Boomers who lived in a tear down mfg home or RV and build a house slowly with cash without paying rent themselves. When the house was built, they lobbied to stop anybody else from doing what they just did themselves.

"You will own nothing, and you will be happy" is mostly about preventing home ownership and controlling the biggest iron costs of living yourself.

Schwab wants cheap gimgaws but for corporations to rent out the 15-minute city housing stock, centrally-controlled electric instead of distributed gas, etc. He doesn't care if you own a TV or laptop or window A/C, so long as you can never reasonably own housing and are dependent on the Center.

Some other things that make "Fuck the County" tricks harder than in the past:

* Drones see down into your property and even the poorest rural counties use them regularly now, so setting up out of road view and putting up a gate and no tresspass signs no longer works.
* Smart Developer-Realtor-Homeloaner cartels made sure the county tied electric/sewer/water connection to building permits. No building permit for a full house, no utilities.
* Building size and time were greatly changed; what used to be "You must build within 4 years at least 800 sq ft or greater" became "1 year and at least 1200 sq ft"
* Agra and other zoning was increased to many dozens of acres; and/or replaced with "Horse Farm" zoning and "Deeded Communities", all of which not only ban RVs as well as both Mfg and Modular homes.

This being said, I am very POSITIVE about things going forward.

DeSantis has grabbed HOA Karen-Kens by the balls and squeezed hard, regulating fine-crazy Buttinskies, requiring abundant notice and 48-hour periods to put out an collect trash, banning Karen-Kens from not allowing work vehicles on the driveway - some Karen-Kens Kommisars were even fining Police and Power Company employees for parking their squad car and vans at their own house! This is because the Realtors(Tm) and Developers were demanding it in order to sell.

Florida inventory is now Pre-Pandemic but houses just ain't moving and a top reason is that people want to live without Karen-Ken breathing down their neck looking to give them a $200 fine because they didn't put out the trash no earlier than 5AM and no later than 7AM and back inside by 10AM when they weren't retired and actually had to go to work.

One reform I'd like to see is to put finishing restrictions on Deeded Community.

"Whelp, you have 80% vacant lots after two decades, so the County is hereby revoking Horse Pucky Run's Deeded Community and now those lots are regular residential now, with no mobile or manufactured restrictions or 2000+ sq ft restrictions other than specified in the County's regular R-1 or AR zoning. Too much demand and there's too many vacancies here to keep this Yuppieville snobbery in place. Suck a dick and have a great day!"

Another thing the Georgist Flat Tax would do is deincentivize Counties/Cities from taxing or restricting ADLs, RVs, Sheds, add-ons, etc. since only the land itself would be taxed.

AmericanKulak says

* Smart Developer-Realtor-Homeloaner cartels

In areas designated to be in the “Metro District” around Denver, like Castle Rock, homeowners have to pay extraordinary property taxes supposedly to pay for the infrastructure supporting these new developments. The property taxes are on par with New York’s, I shit you not. Homes in nearby areas outside this special district pay more reasonable property taxes. Did the developer unload these costs onto the homebuyer?