patrick.net

EVs are piling up on car dealership lots. Car dealers report a six- to 12-month supply of EVs versus a month of gas vehicles. “We have a steady number of clients that have attempted to or flat-out returned their [electric] car,” says Paul LaRochelle, a dealership executive in the Washington, D.C. region. According to S&P Global Mobility, half of non-Tesla EV owners purchase an internal combustion engine for their next vehicle.

These meaningful EV costs come with only minor operational savings. “Over four days, we spent $175 on charging,” reports the four-day EV renter. “We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275.” Other analyses show a fast charge costs around $13 for 100 miles of range — the same amount as $3.25-a-gallon gas for a car that gets 25 miles to the gallon. EVs are also more expensive to maintain, with Consumer Reports finding they have nearly twice as many problems.

https://themessenger.com/opinion/electric-vehicle-consumers-climate-biden-green-agenda

UkraineIsFucked says

These meaningful EV costs come with only minor operational savings. “Over four days, we spent $175 on charging,” reports the four-day EV renter. “We estimated the equivalent cost for gas in a Kia Forte would have been $275.” Other analyses show a fast charge costs around $13 for 100 miles of range — the same amount as $3.25-a-gallon gas for a car that gets 25 miles to the gallon. EVs are also more expensive to maintain, with Consumer Reports finding they have nearly twice as many problems.

The charging thing is a joke. Utilities will get that "charge" money at the same level as pumping gas. This was always coming. 2025 it won't be cheaper to have an EV. Hybrids with electric for the first 30-50 miles are the future. We need 20-30 years to build nukes, which are regulation intensive. Early adaptors got lucky and the likes of Tesla will ultimately renege on the free super charging. It's coming. Raising rates on ALL customers is hard when there's more demand AND you need more output. Nukes or coal. Those are the options. They aren't cheap.

WookieMan says

We need 20-30 years to build nukes, which are regulation intensive

That is entirely a political thing. Chinese build reactors in under 5 years. New Gen 3 ones, too.

We can do it in 7-10 if we cleaned out the NRC of the greentards that deliberately make the regs we have today.

Then there are SMRs.

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

We need 20-30 years to build nukes, which are regulation intensive

That is entirely a political thing. Chinese build reactors in under 5 years. New Gen 3 ones, too.

We can do it in 7-10 if we cleaned out the NRC of the greentards that deliberately make the regs we have today.

Then there are SMRs.

I get we have the capacity to do it quicker. It's not going to happen. We will need to bring coal plants back online. They generally don't demolish them as the land is an environmental hazard pain in the ass. So new power capacity to "fuel" up everyones new cyber truck is the absolute complete opposite of clean/green energy.

Nuclear is also a classic NIMBY topic. It's not even about regulation. In my area people bitch and put signs about about a fucking solar farm. Sure they look like shit, but no one wants a nuke in their backyard as they charge their Tesla. The hypocrisy to amazing. People need to just admit they like a car that is fun to drive and does absolute damage to the environment. More than ICE vehicles. It's not even a debate.

The day of reckoning is coming. We barely have the capacity to handle current EV demand. Hell before Tesla was even a thing there are plenty of areas with brownouts and other power issues. We're adding batteries that take hours to charge and now cyber truck with larger battery pack. All I'm saying is the EV homers are gonna get a rude awaking. It's not like adding a freezer to the house that runs for 5-10 minutes an hour max. It's a power draw for 3 hours at home to "fill" up.

Also I wouldn't trust a damn thing the Chinese do. That covid hospital they built in 10 days... lol. Not the best source to mention as we've seen their building topple over.

WookieMan says

We will need to bring coal plants back online. They generally don't demolish them as the land is an environmental hazard pain in the ass. So new power capacity to "fuel" up everyones new cyber truck is the absolute complete opposite of clean/green energy.

They are being converted to be nat gas plants. Some might be converted into geothermal because fracking tech can be applied to expand geothermal to most of the country.

So, better to build more pipelines than reopen coal plants.

WookieMan says

More than ICE vehicles. It's not even a debate.

My fav thing to do is tell Tesla owners that. Highest return-on-effort trolling out there presently. :)

WookieMan says

In my area people bitch and put signs about about a fucking solar farm.

Same around here. Liberal voting despite being rural King and Queen County had county government viciously fight a Dominion Power solar farm. You would have to drive down some backroads to even see it.

UkraineIsFucked says

My fav thing to do is tell Tesla owners that. Highest return-on-effort trolling out there presently. :)

I don't want to troll. I just want to point out how hypocritical they are. It's kind of not funny. EV's (government subsidies) and Musk are pushing this hard. There's no way we can handle a doubling of EV's without massive electric output "fueling" it. You have to restart coal. Nat gas is somewhat quicker as you say, but still 2-4 years for a single plant.

My concern is me. These people thinking they're green are going to cost me substantially more. We have to pay for it. I will fight though and make sure EV owners pay for electric increases and the new plants/nukes we'll need. This is classic government shooting itself in the foot. It's basic math. The electric has to come from something. It's not solar or wind. EV's are trash for the environment. Fun to drive though.

WookieMan says

I don't want to troll. I just want to point out how hypocritical they are.

Same thing as far as they are concerned.

WookieMan says

There's no way we can handle a doubling of EV's without massive electric output "fueling" it. You have to restart coal.

Restarting coal isn't going to increase the output. Not really.

Also, the real hangup before we get into the output issue (except in the bluetard states that do not produce enough power domestically, perhaps) is distribution. Electrical distribution infrastructure has to be expanded at least 4x. Not gonna happen.

Oh, and because we are massively re-industrializing and need to do even more, industrial growth will compete for insufficient electrical supply against other uses for the first time in over 60 years as well.

WookieMan says

These people thinking they're green are going to cost me substantially more

All the more reason to at least troll the fuckers. You can't reason with them. And they never even see hypocrisy when they look in the mirror. They can't allow it.

You and I have our rows. But I like to think we have more in common as far as how we are hardwired in the brainpan than we do with these libtards.

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

UkraineIsFucked says

https://issuesinsights.com/2024/01/04/collapse-of-used-ev-market-spells-doom-for-bidens-electric-car-dreams/

Was always a flaw in the model for EV. When you give people tax advantages to buy new, the used is going to be worthless. I've said it before, we've had electric golf carts forever. Even lead acid batteries you're looking at $800 for a 48v setup.... for a golf cart. If you go lithium, you're looking at $2,500 for a quality battery battery replacement.

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery. You'd be stupid to buy them used and if you did the price would need to be massively lower than an ICE car because you're needing to replace something 3-4x's an ICE engine at some point.

WookieMan says

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.

Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?

UkraineIsFucked says

Electrical distribution infrastructure has to be expanded at least 4x. Not gonna happen.

Correct. Not enough current will be the reason to force the public to about 1/4 of what they drive currently.

zzyzzx says

WookieMan says

That's why you can get used golf carts for under $1k. The previous owner got the life out of the battery and the new owner has to replace them. The value goes to shit. Replacing a vehicle battery that moves up to 3-4k lbs loads, that's a big ass battery.

Can you buy a used golf cart that has lithium batteries and relpace the lithium batteries with regular AGM car batteries and an AGM charger?

You can put whatever electric source you want in them. I was just pointing out that a 800lbs vehicle/cart is gonna run you $2,500. That's a battery that gets you maybe 30 miles. Add weight and distance and I think you get the idea and why I've been saying Tesla is just a glorified golf cart. It is. Just a bigger battery at a massive cost that's currently subsidized by the public.

It's a big argument in the golf cart community (lol) about ICE or electric. For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me. Back to carts, the gas ones are fucking annoying and loud and have a ton of lag pressing the peddle if you golf. I hate them. Golfing I hate the ass hole that starts going in the middle of my swing. Fucking d-bag.

WookieMan says

For short distances I prefer the electric since it's quiet and quick. Long distances EV's have never made sense to me. I drive long distances a lot. So it just won't work for me.

Yes - Tesla's are fantastic for roughly 90% of US drivers who aren't constantly taking long road trips.

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.

Lots of Chinese EV fires:

https://youtu.be/DwhnArkZTu8?si=CURHyiZByEN3i7EU

RWSGFY says

PumpingRedheads says

HeadSet says

If we have a flood of EVs, they will come equipped with electronics that will limit when you can charge, such as Tuesdays between noon and 4 PM.

They don't have that here or anywhere else in the world.

Didn't Swiss passed something along these lines recently?

We have this here where I live already. It's called "time based use" cost of electricity. I know that my rates are cheaper outside the hours of 4 PM to 9 PM, so if I had an EV I'd program it to charge starting after 9. That seems pretty simple.

Taking this one step further (and I think it already is in some places), we could have an additional step-down in prices between midnight and 4 AM (or whenever).

Now that we're in the 21st century, it should be easy enough to have continuously variable electricity pricing and then I could program my car to optimize the costs. It would be a fun game for computer geeks until someone wakes up ready to commute in the morning to find out their car didn't charge.

Additionally, California has gone pretty far in solar voltaics. Charging from 10 AM until 3 PM (or whenever it is that the panels are making lots of electricity but A/C systems aren't yet working hard) would be a great way to even out the solar surge.

socal2 says

BTW - if you ever get a chance to roadtrip in a Tesla, check it out. Can't tell you how much more enjoyable and less stress it is to simply turn on Autopilot and let the car handle all the freeway driving.

I rented a Jaguar out in Washington about 3 years ago. I didn't touch the steering wheel 90% of the time. Just perpendicular turns. The tech has been out and in other models for a while now.

That said, having a perfect driving record, I don't see the point. I don't trust the electronics. No different than the Boeing 737 MCAS system. I don't fly myself, but I personally would want to hand fly as much as possible. Same with driving. I also admittedly have drinks and drive, again perfect driving record at 40. The electronics fail on me slightly buzzed I'm fucked. Note I've never put anyone in danger before the anti drinking crowd comes in. I just stayed at my buddies house Saturday because we drank. You don't keep that record without discipline.

I know you like your EV/Tesla, but I just don't see the point. At least as someone with kids I need to transport. Tesla and other car makers have not come out with an EV model with a 3rd row, towing weights that aren't gay, and don't likely cost $100k when they do. I'll take a lightly use Armada or Sequoia for $35-50k all day. We don't drive baby cars in my family is what we say. That's not a knock, it's literally what we say. No Tesla model could handle our family needs. Also when you can sell $625/hr 365, 24/7, that 20-30 minutes at the electric "pump" matters. You lose $200-400 per "fill up", when it costs me $80 in 3 minutes. Time is money.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-67893216

True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO

UkraineIsFucked says

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-bristol-67893216

Retard has no boundaries

UkraineIsFucked says

True costs of fueling an electric vehicle, including excess charging costs and subsidies, is equal to $17.33 per gallon of gasoline, a new analysis found.

https://t.co/SSSkctoMeO

I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

socal2 says

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?

Factoring in the cost of the car I'd lose money switching to EV. This is indisputable. It would take 3-5 years with an EV to beat a similar model ICE. Sure they're not as fun to drive, but it's a waste of money. More coal burnt. There's nothing green about it. Just admit it's a fun car to drive and is more expensive. Because that's what it is. Trust me I like Mercedes and BMW, but I'm not getting it as a daily driver. A Tesla is lost capital. AKA money could be better spent.

WookieMan says

I have a V8 ICE Nissan Armada and live in the middle of no where. I don't spend $200 in gas a month. Not sure what you were driving before because you're not saving $200/mo in gas when factoring in electric. A semi?

I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon. My wife's Hyundai gets maybe 26 mpg. That works out to about $210 month in gas.

The same amount of miles in my Tesla costs $40 in electricity when I charge at home at night.

Great video of Tesla's Full Self Driving.

No one else has anything close to this.

https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1745151497103683625

socal2 says

I got no rebates, get no subsidies and pay some of the highest electricity rates in the country living in SoCal. Even with an EV, I use less electricity than my neighbors with pools and AC.

I pay full freight and I am still saving nearly $200/month in gas.

You're not paying full freight, as those costs prove.

You just say you are because to admit otherwise is to face the bullshit you don't want to.

Explains a lot.

ad says

Minimum wage was $1.60 an hour back in 1970. Cars were affordable relative to minimum wage. You could spend 5 years earning minimum wage to comfortably paying off the car loan for a Maverick. City/Highway mileage was 17/22 only :-/

It's unfortunate we can't get a truly cheap car these days, but even paying up front for all those modern long-term cost savings features like 50k mile tires, no-tuneup fuel injection, and 10k oil changes, a modern car will simply run (cost) circles around one from that era simply based on longevity.

5 year loan for a $2000 car with 20% down. Assuming 5% interest (extremely generous for a car loan in 1970), means you pay $30/month or 18.75 hours of work per month. But that car is unlikely to make it 5 years without major repairs.

How about today with California's minimum wage? For 18.75 hours per month, that's $16 * 18.75 = $300/month. Precisely 10x the 1970 spend. Yeah, you aren't likely to buy any brand new car for $20k, but if you extend to 7 year loan that'll get you to nearly of $27k.

So when you paid off your loan you have a 5 year old Maverick that is nearing (or passed) end-of-life or a 7 year old Toyota Corolla that'll give you less trouble in the next 7 years than the Maverick did in the first 5.

I think you should try to test drive some of those cars from the 60s and 70s. I had a friend who recently paid quite a bit of money for a well-restored Mustang V8 from that era (sadly, an automatic). He soon realized that, although our current cars are mostly soulless and have entirely too many electronic "features," they are miles easier to live with on a daily basis. He sold it pretty quickly.

socal2 says

I average 1,200 miles a month including family road trips and gas is over $4.5/gallon.

You're in CA dude. Gas isn't that much in most places. We're under $3 here because it's an election year. It's literally $2.99 and that's at the expensive gas station that is most convenient.

I can't tow with any model of Tesla. Cyber Truck is ugly as can be and has no range. I HAVE to do things. I have to drive long distances. EV's are not there yet. It works for some that are just commuting to work and the grocery store. I have to do not girly things if I'm being honest. EV's are the VW Bug of the 2020's. They're gay. It's literally a golf cart.

Your $200/mo turned into $170 savings from your own comment. Your wife's Hyundai was likely $20k less as well. That $15-20k in financing eats up any savings. And mark this comment. Your cost are going to skyrocket. Do you actually trust liberals that push EV's and this tech???? They're gonna get their money.

zzyzzx says

Eman says

zzyzzx says

ICEs don't catch on fire when they have no gas in them.

EVs catch on fire just sitting in scrap yards.

EVs catch on fire on ships. So bad extra insurance has to be paid when shipping them. ICEs don't have this problem.

Vast majority of ICEs that catch on fire are in accidents.

This is similar to a model 3: https://www.toyota.com/corollahybrid/2023/

MSRP $23k for the Corolla
MSRP $36k for Tesla Model 3

Similar sized. AWD versus rear wheel on the Tesla. 50mpg. Fine you have oil changes once a quarter at $50 and you buy a K&N air filter and it's the same maintenance for the same miles you'd likely keep both cars. Not sure where you're making up the $13k. Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

The math doesn't add up for basically the same car. You don't need to pay $13k extra for faster 0-60 times and 20 minutes to "fuel" up on a road trip or work trip. That's kind of the definition of stupidity. Enjoy them, but the value is simply not there and no one can prove otherwise. I just picked one model. There are many others that beat the cheapest Tesla that would take 5 years at least to make up the difference in Tesla's price difference even with paying for gas. It's not even a debate.

WookieMan says

Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

And I just got a letter from PG&E showing the new rate plans based upon what I paid in electricity last year. $300 more projected for EV charging plan.

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

Still paying the electric and you're not going to a super charger station every time unless you don't value your time. Or you hire an electrician to install a proper charger. There goes another $2k at least.

And I just got a letter from PG&E showing the new rate plans based upon what I paid in electricity last year. $300 more projected for EV charging plan.

It's coming. We don't agree on everything, but the EV owners are likely over the next 2-4 years to eat shit on rates. The infrastructure is not there and will take a decade plus out of their pocket. They don't get it. I literally just posted a Corolla Hybrid VS a Model 3. If you're cool eating $13k cash or financed at high rates, good for you. You're not getting a good deal with an EV. Even with government subs.

Gas is cheaper and EV's are essentially subsidizing ICE vehicles at this point and they think they're doing the environment a favor.. Less demand for oil makes ICE vehicle cheaper. Electric companies AND governments will charge more in the coming years. MFT's are from gas. They're gonna get their piece of the pie. It's a when, not if. I don't get the EV fan boys.

I see electric vehicles as the current distraction to bilk money on something that will not replace gas vehicles until we have something that will. Possibly hydrogen. So in the meantime they want to take peoples money. Same thing as this country. We don't allow people or laws that will actually work or make a difference, only offer people ineffective options that are very weak tools at best.

Toyota is doing an end run around the 'designed to fail Green Electric Vehicle' by investing in production lines of hydrogen vehicles. I gather hydrogen may be a technology that works, to the consternation of the energy heroin dealers.