patrick.net

Making them from thousands of cells is an engineering choice. It's not set in stone that it has to be done this way.

RWSGFY says

Not enough failures for that, apparently.

yeah good point as far as class action lawsuit , i was thinking of ralph nader's book unsafe at any speed ... need him or his successors (if there are any) to write a book about EV's

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

.

ad says

problem is any ralph nader successor likely would be progressive and ideologically biased (and/or bought off) to not criticize EV's unless it is just to sabotage elon musk

My dislike for EV's is people that say they're cheaper. I have no issue with Musk outside of being a massive government grifter in multiple industries. He wouldn't be able to do what he does without credits on products and literal cash from the government. He seems like a fun dude you could be friends with.

Depending on the model of Tesla you can get a similar sized car (or bigger) for $20-50k less. Say you finance it for 4 years or pay cash. In the financed scenario that's $5k/yr-$12.5k/yr on the high end instead of getting a hybrid. I drive a full ICE V-8 Nissan Armada. I spend maybe $3-4k on gas and it cost less than a Tesla. Has more utility and space. I know there will be a gas station, so no need to search for chargers. No need to worry about cold.

Now factor in something like a RAV-4 hybrid and my daily commute would be $0 in gas. You can get slightly used ones for $30k. I wouldn't qualify for the $7,500 tax credit due to income so full sticker price. Tesla mini "SUV" models are smaller and substantially more expensive.

There's not anything in this comment that can be denied. It's actual fact that Tesla owners just wanted a fun car to drive. And that's okay. I don't care, but I do care that the owners lie about the costs. It's simply not true. It will not be cheaper than a full ICE vehicle or hybrid. Never has. Gas savings are minimal and that's just for now.

For where a Tesla is best operated, it makes no sense to spend $20k+ versus comparable cars. Hell they don't even hold a charge in half the country this time of year. It's fun to drive and status. Plain and simple. It's not an argument. Just would appreciate owners would stop lying and just own up to their insecurities.

RWSGFY says

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

lol. You can't go full retard.

original link

Extra edit: This is just a rental. This guy spells it out almost exactly as imagined IMHO. And that doesn't include the price of the car if it was purchased and not a rental. They're not cheaper.

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

Eman says

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

You don't think like a business person though. You buy a big vehicle and get the better tax incentive and write the gas off and it's cheaper than a Tesla and has more function. Again, you wanted a fun to drive car and status. There's nothing more to this. If you're truly a business owner and investor you would have taken advantage of this. You didn't.

I buy used cars because they're cheaper and I'm not an idiot. I don't need a fancy or fast car. There's literally no reason for it besides ego. Nothing else. I'll say it again and again and again. It's a fun car to drive. It's stupid to own one. I guess I like to work with my hands and not drive a baby car around. I need to tow stuff. Tesla's wouldn't even charge last week in Chicago. You got yourself a $70k paperweight.

Eman says

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

19 years, lol. Rarely does anyone live in a home that long. You just covered someone else's electric bill. Even if you did the next Tesla will be $100k and the next $150k by then. You literally don't have any savings dude. You paid for a car on a monthly basis for solar on your roof, financed to charge your expensive car... Dude, you're not making any sense.

You still haven't factored in the charges that are coming. It will be even more expensive. Especially in CA. Rising state income taxes, more EV's on the road and there will be a EVT (electric vehicle tax). Your utility is going to charge you more. For the 40th time or whatever. You bought a car that is fun to drive and you like it. It's not cheaper. It's not green. Just say that. You're trying to justify something that isn't true by any data readily available.

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on this issue.

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here

“19 years”

It’s more often than you think. Ask all homeowners on Patnet how long have they been in their house?

We might be the exception, but I’ve been in our house for over 20 years. My older sister has been in hers for 27 years. Younger brothers 13-14 years. Youngest sister is 5+ years. She’ll likely keep it as a rental when she upgrades in the coming years. Low property tax basis, low fixed mortgage rate so why not. I bought this place 12 years ago during the downturn and she “inherited” the low basis.

Wife’s siblings, her youngest brother last move was 9 years ago. All others have been in theirs for 14-25 years.

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

WookieMan says

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.

Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles. If you are only in a market for a basic 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to get you around, Tesla would still be a luxury.

EV prices (at least Teslas) will continue to drop as Tesla continues to revolutionize manufacturing and battery production. Tesla has already dramatically reduced the cost of batteries and have been creating a price war in the last 6 months that is killing the other OEMs.

Guarantee you that Tesla will be able to manage their COGS a fuck-ton better than the other OEM's are going to manage their Union labor and pension costs they just dramatically jacked up last year.


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-ev-market-ice-price-parity-2023/

socal2 says

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles.

So? The COST of them is several times over.

GNL says

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.

I know the average is 7 years, but it’s not common in my sphere of friends and family. We’re likely the exceptions. Maybe different cultures handle/view housing differently. Highly likely I’ll die in this house.

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Eman says

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

So what?

Doesn't change reality.

UkraineIsFucked says

So? The COST of them is several times over.

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

socal2 says

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.

That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Autistic boy replies with his same screechy bot type reply.

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.

I already did. As have others, like Wookie has.. socal2 and Eman ignored it and started Tesla Fluffing.

That's what they do. I am not going to repeat the effort of what I have presented because those two Tesla Fluff to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Go back and read thru the thread if you like. Otherwise, don't bitch about 'lack of meat'.

socal2 says

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Out of context Tesla Fluffing aren't assertions.

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.

socal2 says

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂

Eman says

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here

That's true. Out of last 4 Ubers I took 3 were Teslas.

Eman says

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂

Tesla! Tesla! Tesla!

I am not the one who is insane.

And trying to avoid facts that prove EVs are an unsustainable, inscaleable fad vs what they were hyped to be only because it shits all over your precious Tesla won't work here, either.

HeadSet says

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.

Right, but most of the time I use ICE car for work so its not an issue to get public high speed charging point. At work, 7kw stations with 4h limit, Its not a solution for my model and also not convenient for me either. I was thinking to get a charger at home but I have similar concern like others above mentioned, fire hazard! Overall its a mixed bag!

Eman says

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be. This topic is one of them. Just because you see a lot of Teslas in your state and it seems normal, it's simply another luxury car in the rest of the country. I've been to CA enough to see all these people trying too hard by buying BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, Lexus, Tesla, etc. It's literally half the cars on the road out there. I laugh when I see it because it's a waste of money on cars with no utility.

I'll be out in Montana Wednesday. I'm gonna make note of how many Teslas I see during the trip. I know for a fact it's going to be Toyota and Subaru by a long shot. This is why I ask if you leave CA often. Your view on cars is simply that of insecure men that want something cool in California. No different than in the 90's you'd buy a Corvette or Dodge Viper. I'm not wrong and this has been my point in all my comments. It's a cool car that's NOT cheaper than comparative ICE vehicles, yet you keep saying it's saving you $300/mo. You paid $70k to save $3k/yr in gas?? When you could have paid $50k for a hybrid and still saved $300/mo and invest the $20k difference. There's no logic to that.

You have a right to defend your purchase as much as you want. It's simply not smart or logical by any metric. That would be like over paying for an investment property because it looked cool, when you could have bought an okay looking investment property and made more. You did that buying a Tesla. Poor use of money because it drives fun and you thought it saves you money. It wastes money. Doesn't save. Just admit you guys bought them for fun. You know I'm right otherwise you wouldn't be as defensive of a car.

My Tesla is hell of fun to drive I don’t dispute it. The instant torque is addictive. It puts a smile on my face every time I drive it. How much does that worth? Can anyone put a dollar amount on this?

I already shared what I was looking to buy at the time. Let’s compare apples to apples. Which $77k car, which doesn’t cost money to fuel (free supercharging for life), can do 0-60 in 4.2 sec, fun to drive, has air suspensions (something people will appreciate as you get older) with advanced hitech and autopilot?

With respect to status, you have no clue what it means in the Bay Area. Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

If I want status, I’d live in Atherton, or Hillsborough, or Los Altos Hills, or Palo Alto. In fact, I’ve thought about it for the sake of my daughter to be in a different sphere of friends. I asked her about it. She said she likes her friends here. Doesn’t want to move.

Eman says

Making $500/year ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a lot of money for your area. Driving a Tesla ain’t 💩. Maybe it is a status for your area. When half of the people drive one, there’s no status.

You still are missing the point. You are not living in reality. Your reality is going to come crumbling down. When was the last time you left CA, again? You live in over leveraged moron land. No one can afford those cars and aren't making $500k. You might be which is awesome. I do that in a land where $80k is a good family income and so is most of the country. I live modestly because I like where I'm at and there's no shit on the street and the people are amazing.

Just admit you haven't left CA in years. Name a spot you traveled? I'll post a screen shot at Bozeman/Yellowstone airport tomorrow if there's no delays in the afternoon and they hate Californians moving there. You don't get out of CA enough and live in a weird echo chamber you think is normal. Model 3 could maybe get by as an upper end car, but all other models are luxury cars.

CA is a pinkies up, yuppie state. It's not jealousy either. It's observing stupidity on my visits. I can't recall what model you have. Hopefully an X and you're writing it off the RE business. Much bigger tax incentive than other models besides Cyber Truck now. $7,500 is a joke on a $70k car. Again I'd take a $50k hybrid, invest the difference that pays me money and STILL pay $0 in gas. So I'm not saving, I'm making money. You're losing money owning a Tesla. Enjoy it I suppose, I'm not of that mindset.

Obviously I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree overall. Oh well. But I genuinely want to know when and where was the last time you've left CA for travel? It does matter because I think people do take your RE opinion at face value. I have. I just don't think you know the rest of the country. If you love it, get to know it dude. I get RE is scalable anywhere, but your take on cars is some CA disinformation in my opinion.

EV charging station in lovely Alaska. Look ma! No waiting like in Chicago!

WookieMan says

Question. How often to you leave CA? I think a lot of Californians have a distorted view of what the country is and should be.

Trust me - you don't want anything California is offering other than our perfect weather, natural beauty and Tesla!

I travel about every other week in the Western half of the US for work (Northern California, Oregon, Nevada, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, Montana) and a couple East Coast trips a year. I grew up in the Midwest and go back home to visit frequently. Yes, California is Tesla Mecca because Tesla was founded here and there are alot of rich early adopters in the Bay Area that could afford them 10 years ago and were attracted to the perceived greenness of the car.

But Tesla's are now much more affordable instead of just being a rich man's toy and will only get cheaper as they continue to ramp production and introduce the Model 2. People like me (who don't care about climate change) can now afford them and we get them because they are a total blast to drive.

I convinced one of my burly aftermarket sales guy who covers heavy equipment in the water industry in the Pacific NW to get a Model Y last year and he loves it. He gets some grief from some of his rural customers until they drive it.

Alot of my Montana guys at work are interested in the Cybertruck which will be a perfect work truck for around town business.

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

@socal2, you own your own business?

socal2 says

No need to force EV adoption with incentives, I think it will continue to come along naturally thanks to the amazing engineering at Tesla.

Correct. But one of those innovations will be a solid-state battery or other battery tech that is an improvement on Lithium-Ion. That will make current Lithium Ion powered cars a nonstarter in the used car market. Not a problem if you had your lithium ion for 10 years of use, but not so good if you bought the last model year of the lithium-ion power.

GNL says

socal2, you own your own business?

No - I manage the West Region for a large water technology and infrastructure company. I was referring to "my guys" as my sales engineers who cover the territory and travel by car frequently. When I first started here about 3 years ago, I was the "new" senior guy they hired from SoCal and I'm visiting branches in Montana and Idaho talking up Tesla and surfing and they all thought I was a liberal California douche until they got to know my politics and drive my car!