patrick.net

I just don't understand why they wouldn't put more thought into the look of the cars though. There are so many cars out there that look a lot better than a Tesla.

Eman says

Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.

HeadSet says

Eman says

Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.

Tiny car, no?

GNL says

Tiny car, no?

Like a RAV4. What is your point? I suspect that if Chevy made that Silverado electric, the systems would work the same way.

HeadSet says

GNL says

Tiny car, no?

Like a RAV4. What is your point? I suspect that if Chevy made that Silverado electric, the systems would work the same way.

I was thinking a tiny car would cool down quicker than a larger car.

Eman says

EV may not make economic and practical sense for everyone, but it does for some.

Yes, particularly to those who collect others tax money under "gov incentives" ;) this incentives can apply to so many other vehicles under business expenses.
(PS: I have to admit that I am one of them to be honest for my Tesla plaid model s)

HeadSet says

Eman says

Same with using HVAC as the consume more battery.

On that Bolt EUV I had, the battery was constantly cooled and if you wanted A/C, it tapped off of the battery cooler. Running A/C did not affect the range, however running a heater did. That A/C was quite powerful and cooled the cabin fast.

Yes, A/C doesn’t consume much. Heat consumes more. However, it heats up quickly. Kind of like a hair dryer.

GNL says

I just don't understand why they wouldn't put more thought into the look of the cars though. There are so many cars out there that look a lot better than a Tesla.

Aerodynamic would be my guess. The S looks good. The refreshed model 3 looks good. Model X looks alright. Model Y is getting a facelift this year too.

I don’t know why and how the Cybertruck made the cut. I needed the truck then, but no longer need one now so I’m not buying. I told my wife it it weren’t made by Tesla, no one would buy this fugly Cybertruck. 😅

Blue says

Eman says

EV may not make economic and practical sense for everyone, but it does for some.

Yes, particularly to those who collect others tax money under "gov incentives" ;) this incentives can apply to so many other vehicles under business expenses.
(PS: I have to admit that I am one of them to be honest for my Tesla plaid model s)

Tesla sold its EVs just fine without the tax incentives in 2022. In fact, Elon said no tax incentives. The government is the one who came up with these incentives. Sorry, but we don’t get to decide. It is what it is.

As I previously mentioned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Joe Rogan in 30 sec on the Cybertruck.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1758777471833415925?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Electric cars are so heavy that a guard rail is absolutely no match for them:


original link

Eman says

The government is the one who came up with these incentives. Sorry, but we don’t get to decide. It is what it is.

Isn't dumbocracy and and freedumb great?

Eman says

Aerodynamic would be my guess. The S looks good.

No. 99.99% of cars on the road would have less drag if they drove backwards. The only vehicle that is actually designed to limit drag is the Aptera and that's in development hell.

Unless the back of the car is more tapered than the font, aerodynamics was ignored. It has to be a tear drop shape.

Eman says

As I previously mentioned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Joe Rogan in 30 sec on the Cybertruck.
https://x.com/nicklasnilsso14/status/1758777471833415925?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

I give zero shits about looks. I drove a Pontiac Aztec for 2 years because it was cheap and had utility. Cyber Truck is useless for utility. It's not debatable. There's no range with load or towing. I give zero shits about speed. I don't need to kick my car, hit it with a hammer or shoot a bow and arrow at it. That's retarded. You pay a premium for status and stupid shit that should never happen to your car if you're a good driver. That's it. Gas is cheaper. Again, not debatable.

I live modest and have almost $2M in savings at 40. I'm not dropping $80k on a car that can't go 100 miles with a trailer and sit at a charging station for 30 minutes plus to maybe get another 100 miles out of it. It's a stupid vehicle. It's a tax write off for poor business owners that think they're smart. Musk isn't stupid. He knew what he built and have admitted as much. It looks cool to him. It's not a good car. It was a pet project.

Sales will dry up. Fly over country isn't buying them. Market saturation will be 18-24 months.

WookieMan says

I drove a Pontiac Aztec for 2 years

Everyone I knew that had an Aztec loved it.

HeadSet says

WookieMan says

I drove a Pontiac Aztec for 2 years

Everyone I knew that had an Aztec loved it.

My parents had 3. It was a flop commercially. It was a cooler car than you'd think though. I guess maybe that's what the Cyber Truck is trying to go for. I stacked two pontoon boats on a trailer coming from the Quad Cities. I'd have had to stop at least two times to make the distance I needed with a Cyber Truck. A touch sketchy with a V-6, but made it without fueling up. Not a chance in hell I'm doing that in a EV.

Patrick says

Legend.

Patrick says

If the country was all EVs. then there would be no gas stations and chargepoints/battery swaps would have been everywhere. As far as the new ICE vehicles, people would ask "Where are you going to refuel? Are you going to have a tanker truck follow you around?" "Even if you had fueling stations, those stations would have to be constantly serviced by tankers or run out quickly. Much easier to use the battery swap-outs that are serviced by existing power lines. "I hear you have to change the crankcase lubricant every few thousand miles, what will we do with that hazardous waste?" "Also, ICE engines are very noisy, require transmissions and thus lose efficiency, thus ICE cars are slow accelerating."

100 years ago we had cars powered by gasoline, steam, alcohol, and even electric. Gas won out over time.

HeadSet says

If the country was all EVs. then there would be no gas stations and chargepoints/battery swaps would have been everywhere. As far as the new ICE vehicles, people would ask "Where are you going to refuel? Are you going to have a tanker truck follow you around?" "Even if you had fueling stations, those stations would have to be constantly serviced by tankers or run out quickly. Much easier to use the battery swap-outs that are serviced by existing power lines. "I hear you have to change the crankcase lubricant every few thousand miles, what will we do with that hazardous waste?" "Also, ICE engines are very noisy, require transmissions and thus lose efficiency, thus ICE cars are slow accelerating."

100 years ago we had cars powered by gasoline, steam, alcohol, and even electric. Gas won out over time.

Without ICE cars, electric grid would not have progressed much beyond lighting use (with frequent residential fires due to wire shorts), and battery technology not much beyond lead-acid: wide use of plastic would not have been possible if not for the petrochemical industry developed over the early 20th century for gasoline and diesel production. Various plastics for the interior/exterior of cars as well as for the membranes used in modern lithium batteries, and for wire insulation in the electric grid were byproducts of the ICE revolution. Even lithium mining depends on massive ICE mining trucks. If the Green socialists were around in 1890 to enforce their theology, the world might just have become a bigger and longer-duration Cuba: instead of being stuck with 1950's cars for half a century, the world transportation technology standards could have stuck for a century in a mix of horses, lead-acid battery cars and bicycles.

Reality says

Without ICE cars, electric grid would not have progressed much beyond lighting use (with frequent residential fires due to wire shorts), and battery technology not much beyond lead-acid

Could be, but I was answering on that premise "all cars are EV."

The premise "all cars were EV's" would have meant no plastic, as there would have been no way of disposing of massive amount of the lighter components of the petroleum, nor would there have been the petrochemical research to result in plastics. So the dominant battery technology would have been Lead-Acid. Even today, banning all ICE cars would face the problem of what to do with the 60-70% by volume lighter components of petroleum, as making plastic and paving road would only need the most heavy 1/3 components, and the heavy EV's require frequent repaving using asphalt. What to do with the 2x more volume lighter components of petroleum that producing aslphalt (and plastics) would result as byproducts?

HeadSet says

Reality says

Without ICE cars, electric grid would not have progressed much beyond lighting use (with frequent residential fires due to wire shorts), and battery technology not much beyond lead-acid

Could be, but I was answering on that premise "all cars are EV."

We literally don't have a quality electric grid in most places. It's one thing IL and ComEd here have done 100% right. We have the most nuclear generation in the country and probably world per capita. Never have had a legit power outage more than 30 minutes. Usually only off for 30 seconds and comes back on. Some drunk hits a power pole, lightening strike, or transformer blown. That's usually the reason, but it's still back quick.

We also have some of the largest wind farms near me. Not a massive fan of "green" power, but it does make sense where I'm at. I could run a windmill to a battery pack and power things like my pool pump, outdoor landscape lighting and sound system. Today was 20mph consistent with no big gusts. So those things probably allow the nat gas power plants and coal to back off production and take over on windy days. So it makes sense.

Outside of a tornado hitting your town here, our grid is amazing here in IL. I don't give compliments to my own state often. I feel for you guys in CA. It's only going to get worse with the cyber truck and small dick syndrome and being gay. I don't think any of you have any idea how taxed your already over taxed grid is going to get. It's honestly not funny. You may have week long outages during hot stretches as people plug in all these EV's. I'd invest in ways to keep your already cold food cold for at least a couple days. Generators are obvious but I'd still at least get a huge cooler or two and grab ice the minute the power goes out. Long outage without that would cost us an east $600-1k in spoiled food.

This is what you're gonna be getting with EV's. Just amazing.

In the absence of ICE car demand for gasoline (and diesel), there wouldn't have been the petrochemical industry that has produced the plastic insulators (tubes/wire-wraps/coatings) for electric lines. Electricity distribution into households would have continued using the Knob-and-Tube method, which is not only much more expensive but also far more fire-hazardous. Under those conditions, it would be doubtful that high power household electrical appliances (such as electric stove, electric dryer, dishwasher with drying function, electric water heater, electric heater, or even central air conditioning) would have become popular. Nuclear power plants would have been quite unnecessary except for making nuclear bombs. Knob-and-Tube wire charging an EV is possible, but chances are that you would have to physically remove the Lead-Acid batteries from the car to carry them into the house to charge, because the extension electric cable with 1 or 2 elements (no grounding under Knob-and-Tube method of household wiring) wrapped in asphalt or natural rubber would be either brittle or age rapidly if exposed to UV or elements. So the EV's under those circumstances would be what we call golf carts, but even golf carts would still be better than horse-drawn carriages (which would be buses) for city dwelling household ownership living in streets filled with muck from horse-drawn "buses" and "taxi-cabs"; charging Lead-Acid batteries would be easier than buying hay every day, and a golf-cart doesn't generate vet bills just standing still. Of course kids on their way to schools would be witnessing horse-shooting in the streets frequently as a typical horse (pulling buses or taxi-cab) lasted only 2000-5000 miles, and had to be put out of misery when it collapsed.

Eman says

Porkchop,

Serious question. Have you ever owned an EV or a Tesla? My wife and I used to be ICE car drivers, and we don’t see ourselves ever going back to to ICE cars.

I've never owned an EV but I have driven them and they are indeed fun to drive. If I owned a home in CA, AZ or NV, I'd probably own an EV if I had solar on my house. But, it still probably wouldn't make economic sense but neither do many things I do...I just do them because I want to. I don't put a lot of miles on my car because I work from home, and I live in TN where EV infrastructure is more scarce. If someone does a lot of driving, especially city driving, I could see it making sense.

porkchopXpress says

I've never owned an EV but I have driven them and they are indeed fun to drive. If I owned a home in CA, AZ or NV, I'd probably own an EV if I had solar on my house. But, it still probably wouldn't make economic sense but neither do many things I do...I just do them because I want to. I don't put a lot of miles on my car because I work from home, and I live in TN where EV infrastructure is more scarce. If someone does a lot of driving, especially city driving, I could see it making sense.

Bingo. CA isn't the country. They don't make sense and the Cyber Truck makes even less sense if you try to get ANY utility out of it for the price. It's okay to like a car. Is it logical most of the time? No. I'll never buy an all EV even if in a warm climate. It makes no sense. You'll want a new car 5 years in and you still haven't even gotten your gas savings at all.

Quote this or whatever. The electric grid cannot handle it AND MFT taxes or taxes via the grid are coming EV owners ways. I think by 2025. Covid gave the EV owners an extra 2-3 years. It's coming. I won't be wrong.

Reality says

In the absence of ICE car demand for gasoline (and diesel), there wouldn't have been the petrochemical industry that has produced the plastic insulators (tubes/wire-wraps/coatings) for electric lines. Electricity distribution into households would have continued using the Knob-and-Tube method,

We are talking an "alternative history" here, a thought exercise like "what would it be like if Hitler did not invade the USSR." However, I do not think it is correct to assume that without ICE cars we would have no progress in other areas including chemistry. If, for example, the country trended to electric vehicles instead of gas we would have seen more improvements in batteries, electrical distribution, and electric drive trains. Petroleum would still be around as heating oil and lubricants, so plenty of opportunity to develop plastics and related products. If we had gone the EV route, then today's EV would be more advanced than a Tesla, just like real world ICE cars are a far cry from a Model T.

We can't even do 10% EV's currently. We're at 3% max. Your light in your home would not turn on if we got to 10% at current grid capabilities in most areas. CA grid is toast if EV's double in the next year or two. It's already shit anyway.

Your toy will become useless. it's fact.

WookieMan says

We can't even do 10% EV's currently. We're at 3% max. Your light in your home would not turn on if we got to 10% at current grid capabilities in most areas. CA grid is toast if EV's double in the next year or two. It's already shit anyway.

Over 25% of all new cars sold in California last year were electric.

California has one of the shittiest and least reliable grids in the US, so if California can cope - so will most everyone else.

Not saying that we don't have to improve our energy grid - but it is not an insurmountable task.

socal2 says

Over 25% of all new cars sold in California last year were electric.

California has one of the shittiest and least reliable grids in the US, so if California can cope - so will most everyone else.

Not saying that we don't have to improve our energy grid - but it is not an insurmountable task.

Not disputing the sales. It's fine 90% of the time. You get a hot summer and you guys are fucked even if you have the free super charger. Your car won't work. Eman might do fine with solar I suppose but you cats are still reliant on the grid no matter what. You have cars that are fucked if there's no sunshine or grid. Not really a discussion.

I'm intested to see what happens when this 25% of cars cannot move? Or your roads get shittier than they already are with no MFT. There's a lot, a ton that EV driver have zero clue about the industry. It's kind of comical and kind of scary at the same time. Enjoy the next 18 months. Your toy is gonna cost $5k/yr more. Between grid updates, MFT and overpaying for a sedan, you'll have lost $20-30k and not saved a dime.

A bit "technical" but proves my point. https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2090&context=lclr

They're gonna come after you guys. Hybrids as well, which is the ultimate future. You'll pay even more for what you overpaid for a vehicle when you have to repair your suspension because of shitty roads. Winning, I guess?

If anyone, who doesn’t have solar, but is worried about power outages, consider installing a power generator.

My biz partner installed a power generator for his house, which is capable of generating equivalent to his electricity grid. It’s tied to the PG&E gas supply line. If there’s a power outage, it will kick on. Instead of paying for electricity, you pay for gas during that duration. He paid $10k to have it installed.

He has a single story Eichler house, and his neighbors have tall trees. Solar was not a viable option while he drives an X. Just food for thought.

WookieMan says

You get a hot summer and you guys are fucked even if you have the free super charger. Your car won't work.

If we have no electricity, how are the gas pumps at gas stations going to work? The pumps won't work, nor would the payment systems. Most power outages don't last for more than a day or so. Anything longer, and EVERYTHING will have issues, not just EV's.

Also, it takes 4 kWH of electricity just to refine 1 gallon of gas. That is the equivalent of my Model Y driving 15 miles just on the electricity it takes to refine a gallon of gas. That doesn't even factor in the costs and energy needed to transport the refined gasoline to the gas station.

Think of all the electricity we could save and less wear and tear on our roads if we don't need to refine and haul billions of gallons of gas all over the country.

It’s only February. Let’s go Tesla. 🚀🚀

Did it win any awards for being fugly?

Looking at getting one of the new 3's for the wife and handing her Hyundai Santa Fe down to one of my kids.

I hope the Model Y gets its update before next January when I am due to turn in my lease and get a new Tesla. All the reviews on the upgraded 3 are very good.

GNL says

Did it win any awards for being fugly?

Not yet. Did any car ever win any awards for being fugly?

socal2 says

Looking at getting one of the new 3's for the wife and handing her Hyundai Santa Fe down to one of my kids.

I hope the Model Y gets its update before next January when I am due to turn in my lease and get a new Tesla. All the reviews on the upgraded 3 are very good.

Good choice. It’s getting raving reviews. The hope for the refreshed Y is this summer, or later this year at the latest.

As much I love the ride of the M3P, I’ll likely settle for a MYP or CT from a safety POV. Since we have a ton of credit for the solar we installed last summer, I’ll see how much credit we use up before tagging on more EV tax credit. The solar tax credit can be spread out over 5 years, but the EV tax credit is only good for 1 year. It’s good not to be in a rush to buy.

Eman says

GNL says

Did it win any awards for being fugly?

Not yet. Did any car ever win any awards for being fugly?

i think pontiac vibe did, for sure had it in the bag.

Eman says

Good choice. It’s getting raving reviews. The hope for the refreshed Y is this summer, or later this year at the latest.

I hope you are right. They have to be cagey about announcing so they don't "Osbourne" current Model Y orders.