patrick.net

I would help, but I'm currently busy donating to the Michael Jackson funeral debacle in Los Angeles. Once I'm done with that, I have to help a Nigerian Prince get his family's money out of the country... So you see, I simply don't have the resources to help some asshole keep his home simply because he bought a depreciating asset.

Unfortunately there's a problem with his site so I couldn't access it. I wonder if it's possible to donate a penny - and if so, will it cost him a fee for each donation? That would be hilarious, especially if hundreds of people were to do that... Alas, I can't find out due to his site being down...

"Just like I don’t have the resources to help a-holes get healthcare simply because they wanted to spend their money elsewhere and didn’t plan accordingly."

Fail.

I've planned accordingly, but I know I could lose my job, get sick, and the healthcare industry would suck up all of my planning/money in nothing flat. Plan accordingly? How? "I think I'll be Bill Gates and have millions" ????

drfelle says

elliemae says

So you see, I simply don’t have the resources to help some asshole keep his home simply because he bought a depreciating asset.

Just like I don’t have the resources to help a-holes get healthcare simply because they wanted to spend their money elsewhere and didn’t plan accordingly.

We get it. You don't want to subsidize someone else's healthcare. It must really piss you off that you already are - so badly that you can't focus on anything else.

Like, for instance, this guy who is attempting to raise money to pay off his house on donations. That's the topic of this thread.

Yawn.

drfelle says

elliemae says

So you see, I simply don’t have the resources to help some asshole keep his home simply because he bought a depreciating asset.

Just like I don’t have the resources to help a-holes get healthcare simply because they wanted to spend their money elsewhere and didn’t plan accordingly.

You do pay for it. That's the point. If everyone had health insurance it would be cheaper for everyone. If you go to a hospital, they CAN'T deny you care. You can walk without paying, or even giving your name. We pay 2x as much per capita and are rated 37th in the quality of care we receive.

People who think we've got good healthcare are the same people who think they're getting real value when they eat fast food.

1.) Stop defensive medicine.
2.) Promote salaried positions instead of working doctors like prostitutes.
3.) Give people a little dignity at the end of life.
4.) Get rid of for-profit healthcare insurance.
5.) Give the government of the United States the same right to buy in bulk and negotiate price that every other nation on the planet insists upon.

drfelle says

Some Guy says

Guys, let’s stop feeding the troll, o.k.?

Interpretation: Hey fellow libs, this drfelle guy is too darn good. If we engage him in debate we’re sure to lose!

What a Richard you are!

drfelle = OTS

Before judging, please read the complete article and look at his site. First, he's not asking for donations: he's playing music ( covers and his own ) and uses his house as a virtual "guitar case", people can put few bucks if they like the music and he's using that money towards paying his mortgage. He has built a pretty original site that helps users to visualize contributions the site is handmade and not some cookie cut or blog. Second, they could afford the house, being 2 working professionals but his wife had pregnancy complications and had to quit her job because of that, so they've lost one income. Instead of asking for bailouts, the guy took a second job of recording and playing music online. Many would say "he should not have bought", but the guy deserves respect for trying to find ways to pay off his mortgage, instead of walking away and making things even worse. More walkaways -> more losses to the bank, and that would be OK, but you all know that "banks are too big to fail", so the true formuala: more walkaways -> more tax money for bank bailouts

@Some Guy --

"hoping to fix up and refinance" is an unfortunate quote that isn't exactly correct. I was hoping to combine two loans into one, but we're not talking about flipping anything. We bought this house to live in it.

All I'm trying to do is to make money to pay off the second high-interest mortgage. Maybe buying the house wasn't the wisest decision in the world, but I signed those loans and I'm going to pay for them. Walking away, loan mods, and "principle reductions" are exactly the same type of garbage that got us here in the first place.

I specifically don't use the term "donation" anywhere, because I'm not asking for donations. I'm _hoping_ for contributions, but they are by no means forced upon anyone. You can always listen you my music for free. Writing, playing, and recording music is a lot of work -- if you've done it, you know. If you haven't, I totally recommend giving it a shot.

@Some Guy --

When you have a baby, you usually don't account for an indefinite loss of the wife's income. Here, in America, wifes go back to work after 6 weeks. I think that's insane, personally, but still, you would expect her to be able to go back to work at some point. If your baby is born extremely premature, childcare is a bad idea for a very long time. People put preemies in childcare, true, but I'd rather busk online.

@Some Guy --

Both of my loans are for 30 years -- this is again to reiterate that the "hoped to refinance" quote isn't quite accurate.

principle --> principal

@ andrei.soroker

I guess you are the guy in the SFGate story.

Curious, how did you find this thread? :-)

Some Guy,
>Give us a break - Putting up a website asking for donations is not a “second job”.
Well, I think you again misunderstand the idea. He's not asking for donations. The site was not simply "put out", it's a neat and handcrafted application. I'm not sure if you've been creating web applications and operating web sites with high traffic, but this by itself is a pretty difficult job, trust me. Also, composing and recording music takes a lot of time as well.

> And I DID read the article, and it explicitly stated that he was “hoping to fix it up and refinance”.
Ok, he's telling how he's going to spend the money he earns by playing his music online, but this doesn't automatically mean that he's asking for donations, the guys is working for that money.

>I have sympathy for these people, but renters lose jobs too. What makes a person who overpaid for a house MORE >deserving of our sympathy than someone who is renting?
Well, I'm renter too, and the only way I might buy a house is that if it requires 0 maintenance, I can buy it for cash plus I still have about the same amount cash left after buying, so I'll probably never buy a house :) and I'm cool with that. For me house is burden, no matter bubble-priced or not. I don't need sympathy, I don't feel ashamed, I'm enjoying my freedom as renter. But people are different and not everyone is financially savvy either, he made a mistake but he's trying to make up for that by working extra. If he walks away, then you and I will be made to pay for it with our retirement, or added inflation, unfixed roads etc. Unfortunately this how the current system works, so I'm much less sympathetic to people who just go into foreclosure and I respect those who are trying to fix the mess they are in.

@permanent_marker --

I found this thread by seeing patrick.net listed as one of the referral sites to my site.

Then like this:

[google]$ pleasehelpmepayoffmyhouse.com site:patrick.net

pk says

But people are different and not everyone is financially savvy either, he made a mistake but he’s trying to make up for that by working extra. If he walks away, then you and I will be made to pay for it with our retirement, or added inflation, unfixed roads etc. Unfortunately this how the current system works, so I’m much less sympathetic to people who just go into foreclosure and I respect those who are trying to fix the mess they are in.

I couldn't agree more. I am a renter and will be for a while, but this guy deserves some respect for trying to work out of his mess. You should be asking the chronicle writer who put a story on it, why they are writing about him and not about renter. The answer is simple, they want their papers sold. This guy with his premie, fulltime work, built a good site and trying something with his music. Give him a break!

One interesting aspect of my adventure that gets overlooked by people blinded by rage over the idea itself is that it is important to keep your talents, however feeble they might be, afloat.

I now have a perfectly great excuse for playing guitar and learning new stuff, while before I would feel guilty (have to work, etc).

I've seen a lot of people bury those hidden skills -- acquired as children or teenagers with infinite time on their hands -- further and further into the coils of their adult routine. I saw this happening to me, and I decided to combine engineering and music into something interesting, and maybe even useful.

Okay, I'll admit that I didn't read the article. For some reason it wouldn't let me. Had no idea about the wife/baby thing. That changes the way that I look at the situation.

Some Guy say: "Also, when you decide to have a baby, you should plan for it. Maybe counting on the wife’s income when she is going to have a child isn’t a spectacular idea."

There are many circumstances for which one simply can not plan. Pregnancy complications are an excellent example - many women have children without complications. Kate plus 8 did. Octomom did. Millions of women around the world have babies and go back to work very soon afterward. But sometimes there are unforeseen complications and the woman isn't able to return to work (whether the problems are on the part of the child or the mother). Other situations that can't be planned for include the loss of a job, the collapse of the economy leading to the loss of the profession, accidents, unforeseen illnesses, etc.

I was obviously wrong with my snotty comments, partially because I'm jaded and partially because I didn't view the website. I don't care if the guy has a first & second mortgage, more power to him if he's trying to raise $ by selling his tuneage on the interweb.

BTW, there are ways that renters get help paying the bills: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent_party

Andrei, I'll check out your site and I apologize for my snotty comments.

Some Guy,

>Why don’t I see newspaper articles about RENTERS who lost their job?
Well, it sound less "scary" I guess :) Also, there are more prospective mass media "clients" ( i.e. working middle class families ) who can relate to the news about the owner in trouble, not the renter. Scared people are easier to target from marketing prospective. Even in times of the boom, when media was posting news about "sizzling" house market, and stories of fortunes being made, it was in fact "scaring" the others into buying unless it's too late.

As for foreclosures, yes you are right, I was not aware that 50% of sales are the foreclosures. The question is who are buying these discounted foreclosures: families to live in or some flippers in denial who are still hoping that market will suddenly bounce back to the levels of 2006. I hope not the flippers, or we will see more gloom and doom ahead.

As for Mr. Sorker: I still think the idea of performing online and visualizing contributions is great and 100% legit, and by no means can be viewed as simply asking for donations to pay for the house. Shopping went online, hotel booking went online, everything went online. Now Mr. Soroker showed a new way for street performers to go online and make few bucks.

damn, a lot of bitter people here...
I respect the guy. This is no different then street musician playing for money, but a lot more innovative. There are people asking for donations for their art all over the web and it's perfectly fine, regardless of the purpose. Andrei just shared his story with you and you are all over him. If you don't feel like throwing a buck in a hat, move along. No need to throw rocks. Geez, where did so much bitterness come from...

reading the comments ..it looks like all the pissed off /pessimistic/sadistic people have magically gathered at patrick.net
intelligent people think that stupidity is some kind of conspiracy.
its hard for people who are well educated and intelligent to comprehend that most people in the world are stupid not evil. I know many people who are no more greedy than i am and no more evil than i am but still bought homes at the peak. they bought not beause they were more greedy than i am but because they were stupid...period! unfortunately there is no cure for stupidity and you can never escape its consequences when it spills over you. elections are one more example. Just deal with the fact and learn to live with it.

Some Guy says

I don’t know why the article doesn’t mention the second mortgage. The article doesn’t mention quite a few things. Most importantly it makes it sound like I’m begging for people to pay for my house. This is not so. I just want my mortgage to make sense. Because what makes financial sense now is taking a credit hit and abandoning the house — I don’t view it as an honorable option. I’m hoping that people who are at least 10 years older than me, with good jobs, homes purchased in the 1990s, and a warmish feeling toward someone who is trying to resist this clusterfcuk of a housing situation while being caught in it, and not entirely due to shear stupidity.
Perhaps you can get a better understanding by reading a couple of entries I wrote on the topic at http://soroker.blogspot.com. Also take a listen at the recording of the radio show I visited today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK-zG6jDSq8
My second mortgage is the downpayment. I wish I had $100,000 to put down, but I didn’t. If I ever buy a house again, I will have 20% down, or I will not buy the house. I did have some money saved up, but it would have been a drop in the 500K bucket, so I decided to go with 0 down and used the savings to deal with the moving in and property taxes.

(My comment says "awaiting moderation", I'll repost it).

I don’t know why the article doesn’t mention the second mortgage. The article doesn’t mention quite a few things. Most importantly it makes it sound like I’m begging for people to pay for my house. This is not so. I just want my mortgage to make sense. Because what makes financial sense now is taking a credit hit and abandoning the house — I don’t view it as an honorable option. (I said in the comment that's awaiting moderation that I'm trying to reach people who dodged what happened to me by being 10 years older (people who also bought young, people who think home ownership is a good thing, etc), but I want to reach not them alone. I just want to tell everyone that I am doing something other than giving up. And I encourage everyone else in a similar situation to seek novel ways of breaking the housing crisis' spine).

Perhaps you can get a better understanding by reading a couple of entries I wrote on the topic at http://soroker.blogspot.com. Also take a listen at the recording of the radio show I visited today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK-zG6jDSq8

My second mortgage is the downpayment. I wish I had $100,000 to put down, but I didn’t. If I ever buy a house again, I will have 20% down, or no house. I did have some money saved up, but it would have been a drop in the 500K bucket, so I decided to go with 0 down and used the savings to deal with the moving, some repairs, and property taxes.

Some Guy says

andrei.soroker says

@Some Guy –
“hoping to fix up and refinance” is an unfortunate quote that isn’t exactly correct. I was hoping to combine two loans into one, but we’re not talking about flipping anything. We bought this house to live in it.
All I’m trying to do is to make money to pay off the second high-interest mortgage. Maybe buying the house wasn’t the wisest decision in the world, but I signed those loans and I’m going to pay for them. Walking away, loan mods, and “principle reductions” are exactly the same type of garbage that got us here in the first place.
I specifically don’t use the term “donation” anywhere, because I’m not asking for donations. I’m _hoping_ for contributions, but they are by no means forced upon anyone. You can always listen you my music for free. Writing, playing, and recording music is a lot of work — if you’ve done it, you know. If you haven’t, I totally recommend giving it a shot.

I’m curious why the article makes no mention of your second mortgage. Seems rather dishonest. What are the details of this? Did you take out a HELOC, or are you talking about a second loan for the down-payment?
Does this help you understand why people are immediately skeptical when they see “articles” like this? They invariably leave out some crucial detail.

I don't know why the article doesn't mention the second mortgage. The article doesn't mention quite a few things. Most importantly it makes it sound like I'm begging for people to pay for my house. This is not so. I just want my mortgage to make sense. Because what makes financial sense now is taking a credit hit and abandoning the house -- I don't view it as an honorable option. I'm hoping that people who are at least 10 years older than me, with good jobs, homes purchased in the 1990s, and a warmish feeling toward someone who is trying to resist this clusterfcuk of a housing situation while being caught in it, and not entirely due to shear stupidity.
Perhaps you can get a better understanding by reading a couple of entries I wrote on the topic at http://soroker.blogspot.com. Also take a listen at the recording of the radio show I visited today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK-zG6jDSq8
My second mortgage is the downpayment. I wish I had $100,000 to put down, but I didn't. If I ever buy a house again, I will have 20% down, or I will not buy the house. I did have some money saved up, but it would have been a drop in the 500K bucket, so I decided to go with 0 down and used the savings to deal with the moving in and property taxes.

Some Guy says

Well I’m not sure I understand what distinction you are making between a “donation” and a “contribution”. The latter is actually listed as the DEFINITION of the former in many dictionaries. I suppose voluntary contributions are better than forced ones, though. At any rate, I’m sorry you are in this predicament and I wish you luck.

On my website I own the largest contributions. And I'll continue to add my own principal payments to the picture (of course).

I'm not donating to myself, but I am contributing to paying off my mortgage (this statement holds true even if there is only one or two contributors, which is usually the case). I'm inviting everyone who likes my music, website, or spirit to help me contribute. Not to help me donate, but to help me contribute.

It's a subtle difference, yes, but very a significant one for me.

In my opinion, providing material support without expecting any return is donation. We can play with the words as much we can, but it does not change the fact.

Why is there emphasis on 'contribution' vs 'donation'? Seems to me that by asking for a contribution he doesn't want to pay tax on it expecting the people that would 'contribute' to pay the tax on that income. So, that 'contributing person' helps this guy on his house payment directly and the taxes he paid on that income go to help everyone else in the same situation indirectly. When does it end???

I'm 34, a renter, and live in the SF Bay Area. I sell medical devices and make a good living. My wife works full time as well. I would love to own a house but it is unrealistic, as was the case for this guy. However, he took a gamble and lost. If he would have made $300K on this house would he be giving out the profits to everyone he is now asking for help. Nope, so lets chock this up to experience and move on.

Sorry about the child, I think that is awful. However, if we look at the population of the world there are very few people in this kind of financial pain hoping to stay in a house that they paid $500K for. That is a huge amount of money and it will take a lot of pain like this for people to realize how out-to-lunch they were in their thinking. This correction is going to catch people that need to appreciate what they have vs what they don't. I also believe this guy's second job should be trying to find a higher paying job. I love to snowboard and backpack but would never hope that it would pay the bills in a time when I need to pay them.

v-max1200 says

If he would have made $300K on this house would he be giving out the profits to everyone he is now asking for help.

Well said!

There are many people who profited in the bubble era when they sold their properties. I don't see them coming back and helping underwater homeowners. May be that should have been the correct solution for government - taxing past real estate profits retroactively and using that tax money to help underwater homedebtors. Ironically those who profited from real estate in bubble era didn't pay a single penny of tax on their capital gains.

Where is the seller who sold his property to this guy? Probably he is using his money for cruise vacation.

P2D2 says

In my opinion, providing material support without expecting any return is donation. We can play with the words as much we can, but it does not change the fact.

If you have a business with a website, you can buy a permanent link to it on my website for as little as a $1. There's a good chance you'll see at least some traffic increase which might result in a sale.

After you've left an opera performance for which you've paid $78 * 2, did you provide material support to the opera company and didn't get anything back in return? I'm not an opera, but a public performance -- even if it is online -- is something that I hope you will get in return for your material support.

v-max1200 says

Why is there emphasis on ‘contribution’ vs ‘donation’? Seems to me that by asking for a contribution he doesn’t want to pay tax on it expecting the people that would ‘contribute’ to pay the tax on that income. So, that ‘contributing person’ helps this guy on his house payment directly and the taxes he paid on that income go to help everyone else in the same situation indirectly. When does it end???
I’m 34, a renter, and live in the SF Bay Area. I sell medical devices and make a good living. My wife works full time as well. I would love to own a house but it is unrealistic, as was the case for this guy. However, he took a gamble and lost. If he would have made $300K on this house would he be giving out the profits to everyone he is now asking for help. Nope, so lets chock this up to experience and move on.
Sorry about the child, I think that is awful. However, if we look at the population of the world there are very few people in this kind of financial pain hoping to stay in a house that they paid $500K for. That is a huge amount of money and it will take a lot of pain like this for people to realize how out-to-lunch they were in their thinking. This correction is going to catch people that need to appreciate what they have vs what they don’t. I also believe this guy’s second job should be trying to find a higher paying job. I love to snowboard and backpack but would never hope that it would pay the bills in a time when I need to pay them.

I will be paying taxes on the contributions -- where is this tax-free idea coming from?

I have a great six-figure salary. I love my job.

I have great potential to be very useful to this society. I'm already useful, since I pay in taxes every year more than an average American makes before taxes. However, if I stopped feeding Chase as much, I could be even more useful.

For example, I could donate my visual contribution framework to the world to make it easier to raise money for something that is easy to visualize. Say there is a program that's trying to raise money to replant a deforested area -- my solution fits that use case perfectly.

P2D2 says

v-max1200 says

If he would have made $300K on this house would he be giving out the profits to everyone he is now asking for help.

Well said!
There are many people who profited in the bubble era when they sold their properties. I don’t see them coming back and helping underwater homeowners. May be that should have been the correct solution for government - taxing past real estate profits retroactively and using that tax money to help underwater homedebtors. Ironically those who profited from real estate in bubble era didn’t pay a single penny of tax on their capital gains.
Where is the seller who sold his property to this guy? Probably he is using his money for cruise vacation.

The couple that sold us this house spent many years restoring it. They bought it when it was condemned for demolition -- it was a crack house that was literally falling apart. They poured a new foundation, moved it, and raised the first floor by 6 feet. Then they had a baby and ran out of steam (if they had finished work on the house, it would have sold for a lot more in 2006), fortunately just at the right time.

The only thing I'm a little upset about is that they did a terrible job on the electricity -- it's a mess. Oh well, I'll figure out a way to fix it. I already bought an electrical repairs book. I don't feel a single bit of resentment or anger toward them. I'm happy they were able to catch a break. I want them to travel the world and I want for their children to be able to attend good schools. They worked hard and smart and I'm very happy for them.

I will donate $50 if you agree to meet meet me for coffee.

This reminds of something.....

http://www.hulu.com/watch/1389/saturday-night-live-dont-buy-stuff

Some Guy says

andrei.soroker says

However, if I stopped feeding Chase as much, I could be even more useful.

By “feeding”, do you mean paying back the money that they loaned you? I would say, just off the top of my head, if you don’t want to pay back money, you probably shouldn’t borrow it.

I don't want to pay back the money, no. But I will. Paying for something that's worth a lot less than I borrowed to buy it doesn't make me feel good at all. But I will do everything I can to pay that money back, because there is my signature on that loan. And I actually like living in my house, I don't have buyer's remorse in that sense.

For example, I could donate my visual contribution framework to the world to make it easier to raise money for something that is easy to visualize. Say there is a program that’s trying to raise money to replant a deforested area — my solution fits that use case perfectly.

You mean you would share your idea of asking for donations on a web site? Wow, you invented that, huh?

No, I didn't invent that concept. But I couldn't find an implementation that is similar to mine. So far no one has pointed to one either.

I don't quite understand the nature of your animosity toward me. You seem to pick apart little insignificant components of a much larger picture, while steering perfectly clear of trying to understand that larger picture.

Yeah, I am with Some Guy on this one. I don't hate you or anything, but to me you are indicative of a much larger problem - seems everybody wants a magical bail out from their self imposed problems. There's a lot I want too, could have easily gotten myself that dream horse property I always wanted, but I did some simple addition and realized that no, even with 2 good salaries I could not afford to be half a million dollars in debt. How on earth would I ever pay it off?

Seems you and so many others jumped on the "I want it now" bandwagon, and you all want someone to bail you out...whether it be the banks, or the government, or a quick buck in the stock market, or a winning lottery ticket, or some cockamamie idea to try to get other people to give you money.

Ooooops! Now that mommy and daddy wont bail me out, who will??

And have you noticed lately, it's never about "earning" money anymore, It's about "making money". There's a very subtle difference in the psychology between the two that IMO it makes a big difference in our society.

Some Guy says

Well I guess it’s that I’m getting a vibe from you that you don’t feel that Chase should be taking your money. It’s not really their fault that you overpaid for the house, is it? And sorry, but it just strikes me as a little pompous that you want people to help you be free of debt so that you can “share” your website idea with the world. I don’t really see anything there that anyone hasn’t thought of before.

No, quite the opposite: I think Chase should be taking my money. And I don't blame anyone but myself for overpaying for the house.

I stated before that my goal is reducing the principal on the high-interest second mortgage. I'll still be in a lot of debt, but I'll be walking on much firmer ground.

By "share my website idea" I mean developing a free service that makes it possible for anyone to use the visual donation framework. It's just an example of how I can be more useful to society than currently.

"Thought of before" and "implemented" are vastly different concepts. Show me a free service that makes it possible for people to buy little parts of a collage of children's paintings to help them raise money for ... (whatever our schools need money for).

P2D2 says

Where is the seller who sold his property to this guy? Probably he is using his money for cruise vacation.

Remember, nobody had a crystal ball. What is more likely is the guy who sold this house to andrei.soroker used the proceds to buy himself a trade up home.

I really wanted to help this poor soul, but this is the message I got when I tried to click the link;

Welcome! Unfortunately, you are using Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 (IE6), a browser I refuse to support.
.... blah blah blah.

Well if you feel that way about it, I decline to assist you in your goal. Looks like he lost the interest of 17% of potential doners right off the bat. (this is the percentage of people he claims stll run IE6)

Some Guy says

interpretame says

Tude says; “Yeah, I am with Some Guy on this one. I don’t hate you or anything, but to me you are indicative of a much larger problem”

Let’s give this guy a break. The poor dipshit is simply trying to get himself out of the mess he’s in. I personally don’t care whether he does it by selling music or one of his kidneys, since I’m NOT planning on buying either one.

He’s not selling music; he’s asking for donations on a website. I don’t have a problem with that. I have a problem with pretending it’s something that it’s not. Well actually, I do have a tiny problem with that. Why are people donating money to someone who has a “six figure salary”, when the average person is struggling on about HALF that. There are people who don’t even get enough to EAT, and for whom a half-million dollar home would be the wildest dream.

I never said I'm jobless. Where I am pretending? Where am I misleading you? I'm not selling music in the same way street musicians are not selling music.

Financially, I am almost OK. I just need to pay off my second mortgage. I have to right to attempt to do this any way I can come up with. And you have the right to dislike my way. It's a free country!

I don't understand why some of my comments are "awaiting moderation". It's pretty annoying.