patrick.net

Also, sorry to run on and on, but I'd like to see the economic outcomes of cost reduction. One of the benefits of single payer is supposed to be to reduce red tape and paperwork, but won't this cost jobs. If currently doctors have to hire a person each to process claims, wouldn't eliminating the paperwork eliminate those 550,000 jobs? Will the savings be deployed in such a way to make up for those jobs? And what of ancillary jobs?

Eliminating health insurance companies will do away with tens of thousands of jobs and that's just fine with me.
I have spent the past week arguing with my employer-provided health insurance company to
get them to pay for very expensive medical tests that they authorized and then tried to make me pay for out of my own pocket.
I don't see how a government run program could possibly be any worse than that.
They finally admitted that their fancy electronic records system did not work and they are now going to pay for everything which they should have done in the first place.
I literally has to fax them a copy of their own paperwork to prove that I was not required to pay anything.
This clearly shows that "private health insurers" can be just as inefficient and messed-up as government
health insurers.

You think the standard of living is going to remain static? With outsourcing, misuse of H1B visas, and illegal immigration (or reformed immigration involving 'guest workers', aka 'imported cheap labor'), etc, the standard of living for most Americans will decrease. The tax hikes that will eventually show up, be it through hyperinflation, cuts to services while taxes remain the same, or direct increases in taxes will be the straw that breaks the camels back. This is why it is imperative that we rebuild the social safety net now, starting with healthcare. My personal hope for my country is a long deflation, at least another 4 or 5 years. This will give us time to decrease our overall debt loads, cut waste from our budgets, and give us time to reassess priorities and clean house, while at the same time keeping countries like China focused on reassessing their proiorities and cleaning their own house, instead of using our current low state to gain advantage.

While I have no intention of letting reckless free marketers off he hook, part of the reason they were able to dig such a massive pit of global economic catastrophe is the emergence of new technologies and products far faster than governments and financial systems could digest them and their implications. I'm not a ludite or a technophobe, but I do believe that human governments and global financial systems need to better monitor how technology is being used in regards to the global marketplace. After all, those credit default swaps couldn't have existed in such great numbers if they had to be put together in paper ledgers, right?

For this reason, the world desperately needs some form of overarching financial monitoring bodies (and maybe a little regulation), and individual governments have to police their own Wall Streets. If we have the technology to create new products, we have it to monitor those same products. China is now building a market bubble to protect itself from the consequences of the world wide crisis. Mexico and Central America are awash in international criminal gangs, which not only costs lives but destorts their economic activities. The EU is breaking apart from all the things that were overlooked and pushed aside in its formation and expansion. Nuclear-capable Pakistan is unstable, which threatens India and the Middle East, mitigating their productive copasities and national agendas. The list goes on and on. The whole world is in economic and social crisis. A few years of reflection will do the world a boatload of good, or eliminate every life on Earth, one or the other.

Slow, but unrelenting deflation or stagnation in America will merely keep the rest of the world from gaining too fast on America while we're down, and motivate us to figure out how to climb out of it with our neighbors. We are still rich enough and have enough credit-worthiness to keep our society from crumbling to dust (despite what Fox News claims).

Globalization needs to continue. There should be no going back, but slowing down, stopping temporarily, or even backtracking a small amount, in order to figure out how to get where you're going, doesn't mean you're canceling your trip. Continuing to drive aimlessly, with a vague goal but no directions, can only get you more lost.

Austinhousingbubble says

I wish it was so, most of us are just struggling to pay off our loans. Is it too much to ask that I get to choose where the fruits of my labor go?

Yes it is. It shouldn’t be, but it is. And it has always been this way. Just wait until you hit your stride in your career and watch your standard of living remain static thanks to excessive taxes — and I’m talking without any kind of health care option — I’m referring to the deferred debt load to help pay off the excesses of a failed attempt at unregulated, free markets.

Breaking news update from Associated press and Fox news:

Sarah Palin found prostituting herself in Amsterdam. She was complaining about excessive morality brigade in USA, which forced her to do it in Netherland. She said besides having fun, she is also saving money for the health insurance. She is so sure of Obama plan failing...She said she would rather fuck with a stranger than take government's help in health insurance ...She hates socialism..

This clearly shows that “private health insurers” can be just as inefficient and messed-up as government

A private industry which has total control of govt is not only as inefficient as govt , they are worst ..because they don't have to be accountable to people ( they have govt as a shield)

Response from an internet friend to all this:

On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Patrick Killelea wrote:
Why are they so angry about health care reform? It doesn't make sense on the face of it. Health care reform would help them, as anyone with a serious illness in the US knows far too well.

I think it's a combination of factors: Years of being poorly or partially informed of civic affairs.... lack of critical thinking skills.... well-funded interest groups with very clever propaganda.... have been able to mold a percentage of the population to become hysterical about health care reform.

dec

Patrick, I would add that the mainstream media seems to be largely bought and paid for on this issue. While it got little press, that leaked email invite to the Washington Post's "pay for play" dinner for lobbyists was truly revealing and astonishing. To quest from it, for $250,000 per "salon" room, the lobbyists were invited to have "An exclusive opportunity to participate in the health-care reform debate among the select few who will actually get it done." How appalling.

How can your average citizens really understand what is going on when the very news sources they rely upon are clearly not just underfunded or incompetent, they have sold their souls to the highest bidder.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Spoken like a true humanitarian. Perhaps Obama could hire you to be in charge of the claims denial department.

If I’m in charge of the death squad, do I get to wear a brown shirt? It should be an easy job - just approve all blacks and illegal mexicans, and deny all white “real” Americans. Isn’t that what you right-wing retards believe?

Whatever floats your boat Heinrich.

zing!

If you havent figured it out yet! We the workers of the US are too expensive compared to other regions
who make equally good products high in demand but have cheaper labor.

Cheap and easily exploitable labor, (not that anybody cares), and you are dead wrong about equally good product. This is actually a measurable phenomena, not just my opinion. Over engineering, quality control standards, component quality and strict guidelines where labor rights are concerned (you likely get better accuracy at an assembly line or a sewing machine from someone who's not on hour number 18 at work) are all facotrs that ensure a better end product. Kinda like the difference between fast food and gourmet (though that's a dividing line that is being dithered with ad campaigns for McBistros, etc) That's also why you can still depend on Western made durable goods for fifty + years after they hit the shelves.

...and it's not that we are too expensive, it's that someone else is cheaper. You know?

In terms of the trade imbalance, China has been the game changer over the past decade, due in large part to the Chinese government's manipulation of their own currency, suppressing its value in relation to the dollar by re-investing their profits into U.S. treasuries. If their currency had been allowed to gain value without that manipulation, Chinese goods would have become more expensive here, and the incentive for foreign companies to move production to China would have been reduced over time.

drfelle, I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that all your moralizing & outrage was pretty much silent for the previous 8 years when Bush etc 'gubermint' was dismantling your constitution and breaking your laws... when all the problems we now face were brought to a head by unbelievably gross mismanagement & graft... Am I right, that this hard little stance of yours is something thats basically come on since the democrats took office? I'd bet that you had very little to say then...

Wow, somebody has a bit of pent-up rage. As somebody who generally pays about 40% or more of my income in taxes and has a really good health policy, I think there is a reasonable likelihood it is you that are leeching off of me in some capacity. I support nationalized healthcare because I do not believe free markets have ever been shown to work with healthcare. I also believe it would help us to reduce costs over the long haul.

I can understand fears about nationalized medicine, but since it's not even on the table or even close to it, I really don't understand the anger. Part of the reason I am comfortable with nationalized care comes from living in Canada and knowing may Canadians that are extremely supportive of their system, including hard-core Obama-hating conservatives. You'll notice Steven Harper defends the plan vigorously, and he's not exactly what you would call a liberal or centrist.

Anyhow, we're not getting anything like the Canadian plan, so arguing over it is moot. The best we can hope for is to reduce costs and find a way to insure people who are sick or have a history of health issues. You might not realize how easy it is to lose health coverage these days, and if you do, and if you have ever had any illness, you are going to find it next to impossible to get coverage. That needs to change.

Anectdotal:

I have two close friends, both of who are doctors. One is a general practitioner (a declining species) the other is a heart specialist with John Muir. One would like to see Govt take a more concerted role in health care, but more importantly, they want to see costs contained. The other has no interest whatsoever for reform of any sort, and is espeically keen on letting the "market" dictate costs.

Something has got to give, and mobs of angry causasian people (I dont see anyone else at these town hall meetings) arent going to change the inevitable: at some point very soon, nobody except the wealthy will be able to afford any health care whatsoever. We are already approaching 20% of GDP on healthcare spending alone. That is not sustainable.

No matter. The clock is ticking.

"Health care spending accounted for 10.9 percent of the GDP in Switzerland, 10.7 percent in Germany, 9.7 percent in Canada and 9.5 percent in France, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development." - and we are paying 17% GDP, closing in on 20%.

Good thing we're not one of those scary socialist countries.

As an oncology specialist, I have travelled several times to Canada and seen their "example" of health care. It is shockingly attrocious. The lines are long, and if you are truly sick and have any means at all, you travel to another country to get treated. This is not fancy it is reality.

http://illinoisreview.typepad.com/illinoisreview/2007/08/the-ugly-truth-.html

Shame on you Patrick for misleading people into thinking they are better off when in reality they will not only pay more on average but be much more likely to die.

The reasons so many liberals are for it is because they believe the government is the answer to our problems and that money grows on trees. Any educated individual can tell from historical precedent and common sense that this is just not true.

Health care and its costs are a huge problem in this country. Once the leftists get their hands on it, the fiscal health of our country will never be returned. It doesn't matter if housing prices return to normal - you'll be paying much to the government system than you would be saving anyways. Communism and liberalism should be combatted as the true terrorists in this country, not conservatism. Once Obamacare gets hold of us, there is no more hope for wealth or true health.

God Bless America that once was and is now gone and Fuck You Patrick....
trying to destroy our future

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn't me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

corbinlm - I have lived in Canada, know some VERY wealthy Canadians, and none of the Candians have ever left the country for healthcare, including for cancer treatment. I would be interested in know specifically which clinics you visited and for which specific conditions you witnessed lines.

As the (not so liberal) Washington Times pointed out here - http://tinyurl.com/pshugf , Canda's plan is hardly perfect. They suggested we look at the Netherlands for a more successful model, saying "Both the U.S. and Canadian governments, he said, would do well to examine systems such as one in the Netherlands, which provides universal and broader-based health care through a small number of regulated, private health insurers and government funding at a slightly lower cost than in Canada." The point is, we need to openly discuss all possible options.

Oh, and on the off chance that you are actually some lying Swiftboat plant, go crawl back under your rock.

I'd bet anything that corbinlm's claim is complete bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never even been to Canada. It's particularly interesting that he says "as an oncology specialist", as opposed to, I dunno, an oncologist.

As an oncology specialist,

To be fair, anyone can hop on here (notice all the new handles with 1 comments?) and claim to be anyone they please in order to lend some heft to their stance. It means little or nothing.

Shame on you Patrick for misleading people into thinking they are better off when in reality they will not only pay more on average but be much more likely to die.

Would you be willing to cite some research? Using what numbers from what resources did you arrive at this final analysis?

The reasons so many liberals are for it is because they believe the government is the answer to our problems and that money grows on trees.

Shit...again, where were you preternaturally righteous windbags during the bank bailouts, the expansion of taxpayer insured FHA loans, Cram Down legislation passing in the Senate, PPIP, Cash for Clunkers. It's only NOW you feel Uncle Sam's breath on your nape hairs? It's easy to conclude that you're a vested interest spreading thin your own brand of hyperbole.

Any educated individual can tell from historical precedent and common sense that this is just not true.

If this is the crux and height of your argument, then you have no argument.

Communism and liberalism should be combatted as the true terrorists in this country, not conservatism.

You refer to education, but clearly possess a crude understanding of Communism. That said, you subsidize Communism every time you buy a product made in China. I see very little public remorse for this, as long as there is a bargain to be had.

God Bless America that once was and is now gone and Fuck You Patrick….
trying to destroy our future

The paper tigers that come on here and attack the host of this forum under the protective cover of an avatard are a pretty lame bunch. Your anonymity in the case of an attack really undermines your conviction. If you're so devoted to your viewpoint, come forth with your name and credentials. That might also lend some gravity to your otherwise specious sanctimony.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah, and double I know you are but what am I with no backsies.

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah, and double I know you are but what am I with no backsies.

zing!

Is that more to your liking? Transparency!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The republicans are bunch of hypocrites. Republican party is basically rich people's party
Almost all the fights i have seen in US are between the have's and have not's.
The have's want to hold on to thier loot as if its freaking thier god given right to enjoy the benefit of money which they got. they don't realise that the world is not perfect and that just because somebody earns money does not mean that they deserve it. Its not a level playing field.Also, just because bunch of idiots came up with some rules on how to divide earths resources does not mean i have to follow it.
Its like, 10 people in the corner of the street decide that they will have a fist fight and who ever wins will get all the homes in the street. I don't give a fuck about how you republicans define success or who should have what., i only know that all god's children have equal right to all the natural resources ( including land, water, air ..etc). the only thing that is somebody's personal is thier own labor so don't crib about inheritance tax. money which represents access to assets (land, gold, other people labor) should be snatched every ten years and re distributed equally !

We should have free market and every ten years make sure all the participants in the free market starts from the same level to increase efficiency of the free market. Re - distribution of all the wealth every ten years will accomplish that level playing field. when some people are at an advantage , free market is less efficient.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.

Sorry I couldn't resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

renter for ever_san jose says

The republicans are bunch of hypocrites. Republican party is basically rich people’s party

Almost all the fights i have seen in US are between the have’s and have not’s.

The have’s want to hold on to thier loot as if its freaking thier god given right to enjoy the benefit of money which they got. they don’t realise that the world is not perfect and that just because somebody earns money does not mean that they deserve it. Its not a level playing field.Also, just because bunch of idiots came up with some rules on how to divide earths resources does not mean i have to follow it.

Its like, 10 people in the corner of the street decide that they will have a fist fight and who ever wins will get all the homes in the street. I don’t give a fuck about how you republicans define success or who should have what., i only know that all god’s children have equal right to all the natural resources ( including land, water, air ..etc). the only thing that is somebody’s personal is thier own labor so don’t crib about inheritance tax. money which represents access to assets (land, gold, other people labor) should be snatched every ten years and re distributed eually !

Actually the smartest "haves" are the ones to cow the people into believing the government will take care of everything. That is because the real haves run the government. Don't believe the hype: fighting about who is better democrat or republican is like fighting about which virus is the worst HIV or Hanta? How's about we recognize the political system is broke, it is the one that gave us our health care bubble, our housing bubble, our devalued dollar, our job loss to over seas. Gooberment, Gubmint, Goldman Sachs all one in the same. They make money no matter who wins but have the masses convinced elections still matter. Yeah, and the war in Iraq is over too.

This is post 300!

2ndClassCitizen has racked up 46 posts in less than 48 hours. Is this some kind of record?

Lets put an end to all the bickering. Since the people in general, on either side of the isle can't seem to get along, and since the politicians do not want the public health care option for themselves, even though they think it is good for the rest of us,
Just give all Americans the same plan they have, with the same coverage and the same cost.
Problem solved. Think the Political Elitists will go for it???

UK NHS verses the USA health service

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/14/the-usa-v-the-uk-115875-21595747/

Described pretty nicely.

2ndClassCitizen says

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.
Sorry I couldn’t resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

Wow, you really zinged Some Guy. You sure is funny.

In the words of the not-so-great Sarah Palin as she walked away from her job, "how about you stop making things up?"

I get it. Some of ya'll think there's no problem with healthcare. Some of ya'll (myself included) think that the current system is horrendous and could be greatly improved. But this isn't a debate on the issues - this is based on fear, hatred and the intervention by a huge news organization that has decided to parade its right wing opinions as news. And people eat it up.

The last comment - "fuck you and stop trying to dictate was (wtf?) is good for everyone else and mind your own goddamn business," whether targeted at Patrick or others, leaves out one important component. Turn off your computer or go to another site. You're not minding your own goddamn business if you're commenting on someone else's opinion. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Please hope that you never become critically ill under the current healthcare system, because if you do, we'll all be contributing toward your healthcare in some manner. We're just trying to improve the delivery of care.

Sorry to bring this thread back up to the top again, but I have to ask:

With all of the debt ($11T so far) our country is in, wouldn't it be better to get our financial house in order first before enacting a staggeringly expensive benefit program?

I think its the wrong time to pursue this, sorry.

Maybe when our financial house is in order, then yes, but not now.

Thx, chris & doc felle :)

No debt here either :)

I don't know, I guess its just a matter of arithmetic here - the money's not there so we need to just accept that and deal.

In short, fuck you and stop trying to dictate was is good for everyone else and mind your own goddamn business.

More of the same - paper tigers with stale vitriol. Patrick, there must be some way to track IP addresses of posters. I'm sure the data would yield what I suspect; thirty different handles belonging to one or two insurance goons who feel you're a threat to their Porsche payment.

blowero says

2ndClassCitizen says

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.

Sorry I couldn’t resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

Wow, you really zinged Some Guy. You sure is funny.

Just wondering if whoever smelt it dealt it made any sense to Some Guy.

Misstrial says

Sorry to bring this thread back up to the top again, but I have to ask:
With all of the debt ($11T so far) our country is in, wouldn’t it be better to get our financial house in order first before enacting a staggeringly expensive benefit program?
I think its the wrong time to pursue this, sorry.
Maybe when our financial house is in order, then yes, but not now.

You miss the point. If we don't reduce the costs of medicare (which requires reforming the entire system), we will have much more debt.

The alternative is just dropping medicare entirely. Good luck with that.

Basically, we pay around 4500 per capita (for every citizen) for Medicare to cover just seniors and the very poorest. Canada pays 3500 per capita to insure every citizen. So, in theory anyhow, we could cover every single citizen for just what we already pay for medicare and still pay almost 25% more than Canada per capita (which should buy us shorter wait times than Canada too, again, in theory). And that would be without paying a cent for private policies or without employers paying a cent of the money they currently pay for group insurance.

The point is, we're really that rich of a country, but we pay way, way too much for what we currently get (as in a lower life expectancy than Bosnia). It's hard to believe we cannot find some way to do better.

The health care "debate" and the emotion on both "sides" of the issue is not (at least in my humble opinion) as much about the complete lack of money to pay for any kind of public option as it is about the ability to choose. You can gripe all you want about our current state of affairs but the fact of the matter is that right now most people are happy to have the freedom we have. As government takes more control of the payment side, people are concerned that their relationship with their providers will be compromised. After all, he who pays the bills is the one who has the final say. If the government collective pays the bills, the final say is removed from me as a patient and put in the hand of some bureaucrat. Right now if I raise enough money or get enough of my friends to chip in we can buy any operation we need for anyone we know. But if the government takes control it will be in the hands of some bureaucrat who will most likely have the ability and motivation to make politically influenced decisions. If I can't at least use the fruits of my labor pursue my own happiness then the Declaration of Independence becomes meaningless.