patrick.net

I'd bet anything that corbinlm's claim is complete bullshit. I wouldn't be surprised if he's never even been to Canada. It's particularly interesting that he says "as an oncology specialist", as opposed to, I dunno, an oncologist.

As an oncology specialist,

To be fair, anyone can hop on here (notice all the new handles with 1 comments?) and claim to be anyone they please in order to lend some heft to their stance. It means little or nothing.

Shame on you Patrick for misleading people into thinking they are better off when in reality they will not only pay more on average but be much more likely to die.

Would you be willing to cite some research? Using what numbers from what resources did you arrive at this final analysis?

The reasons so many liberals are for it is because they believe the government is the answer to our problems and that money grows on trees.

Shit...again, where were you preternaturally righteous windbags during the bank bailouts, the expansion of taxpayer insured FHA loans, Cram Down legislation passing in the Senate, PPIP, Cash for Clunkers. It's only NOW you feel Uncle Sam's breath on your nape hairs? It's easy to conclude that you're a vested interest spreading thin your own brand of hyperbole.

Any educated individual can tell from historical precedent and common sense that this is just not true.

If this is the crux and height of your argument, then you have no argument.

Communism and liberalism should be combatted as the true terrorists in this country, not conservatism.

You refer to education, but clearly possess a crude understanding of Communism. That said, you subsidize Communism every time you buy a product made in China. I see very little public remorse for this, as long as there is a bargain to be had.

God Bless America that once was and is now gone and Fuck You Patrick….
trying to destroy our future

The paper tigers that come on here and attack the host of this forum under the protective cover of an avatard are a pretty lame bunch. Your anonymity in the case of an attack really undermines your conviction. If you're so devoted to your viewpoint, come forth with your name and credentials. That might also lend some gravity to your otherwise specious sanctimony.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah, and double I know you are but what am I with no backsies.

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah, and double I know you are but what am I with no backsies.

zing!

Is that more to your liking? Transparency!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The republicans are bunch of hypocrites. Republican party is basically rich people's party
Almost all the fights i have seen in US are between the have's and have not's.
The have's want to hold on to thier loot as if its freaking thier god given right to enjoy the benefit of money which they got. they don't realise that the world is not perfect and that just because somebody earns money does not mean that they deserve it. Its not a level playing field.Also, just because bunch of idiots came up with some rules on how to divide earths resources does not mean i have to follow it.
Its like, 10 people in the corner of the street decide that they will have a fist fight and who ever wins will get all the homes in the street. I don't give a fuck about how you republicans define success or who should have what., i only know that all god's children have equal right to all the natural resources ( including land, water, air ..etc). the only thing that is somebody's personal is thier own labor so don't crib about inheritance tax. money which represents access to assets (land, gold, other people labor) should be snatched every ten years and re distributed equally !

We should have free market and every ten years make sure all the participants in the free market starts from the same level to increase efficiency of the free market. Re - distribution of all the wealth every ten years will accomplish that level playing field. when some people are at an advantage , free market is less efficient.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy says

numb3rs says

zing!

Hey 2ndClassCitizen, when you make a sock puppet to make it sound like someone actually liked your lame quip, you might want to try NOT creating it on the same exact day, and having its first and only post be right after yours. Just a little obvious, there.

Sorry to disappoint you but it wasn’t me. It must have been one of the other staffers who are paid $90 an hour to annoy people like you by writing on blogs like this and causing riots at their town hall meetings. Thanks though! It was nice to be recognized.

suuuuure…whatever you say…..

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.

Sorry I couldn't resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

renter for ever_san jose says

The republicans are bunch of hypocrites. Republican party is basically rich people’s party

Almost all the fights i have seen in US are between the have’s and have not’s.

The have’s want to hold on to thier loot as if its freaking thier god given right to enjoy the benefit of money which they got. they don’t realise that the world is not perfect and that just because somebody earns money does not mean that they deserve it. Its not a level playing field.Also, just because bunch of idiots came up with some rules on how to divide earths resources does not mean i have to follow it.

Its like, 10 people in the corner of the street decide that they will have a fist fight and who ever wins will get all the homes in the street. I don’t give a fuck about how you republicans define success or who should have what., i only know that all god’s children have equal right to all the natural resources ( including land, water, air ..etc). the only thing that is somebody’s personal is thier own labor so don’t crib about inheritance tax. money which represents access to assets (land, gold, other people labor) should be snatched every ten years and re distributed eually !

Actually the smartest "haves" are the ones to cow the people into believing the government will take care of everything. That is because the real haves run the government. Don't believe the hype: fighting about who is better democrat or republican is like fighting about which virus is the worst HIV or Hanta? How's about we recognize the political system is broke, it is the one that gave us our health care bubble, our housing bubble, our devalued dollar, our job loss to over seas. Gooberment, Gubmint, Goldman Sachs all one in the same. They make money no matter who wins but have the masses convinced elections still matter. Yeah, and the war in Iraq is over too.

This is post 300!

2ndClassCitizen has racked up 46 posts in less than 48 hours. Is this some kind of record?

Lets put an end to all the bickering. Since the people in general, on either side of the isle can't seem to get along, and since the politicians do not want the public health care option for themselves, even though they think it is good for the rest of us,
Just give all Americans the same plan they have, with the same coverage and the same cost.
Problem solved. Think the Political Elitists will go for it???

UK NHS verses the USA health service

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/08/14/the-usa-v-the-uk-115875-21595747/

Described pretty nicely.

2ndClassCitizen says

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.
Sorry I couldn’t resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

Wow, you really zinged Some Guy. You sure is funny.

In the words of the not-so-great Sarah Palin as she walked away from her job, "how about you stop making things up?"

I get it. Some of ya'll think there's no problem with healthcare. Some of ya'll (myself included) think that the current system is horrendous and could be greatly improved. But this isn't a debate on the issues - this is based on fear, hatred and the intervention by a huge news organization that has decided to parade its right wing opinions as news. And people eat it up.

The last comment - "fuck you and stop trying to dictate was (wtf?) is good for everyone else and mind your own goddamn business," whether targeted at Patrick or others, leaves out one important component. Turn off your computer or go to another site. You're not minding your own goddamn business if you're commenting on someone else's opinion. Pot. Kettle. Black.

Please hope that you never become critically ill under the current healthcare system, because if you do, we'll all be contributing toward your healthcare in some manner. We're just trying to improve the delivery of care.

Sorry to bring this thread back up to the top again, but I have to ask:

With all of the debt ($11T so far) our country is in, wouldn't it be better to get our financial house in order first before enacting a staggeringly expensive benefit program?

I think its the wrong time to pursue this, sorry.

Maybe when our financial house is in order, then yes, but not now.

Thx, chris & doc felle :)

No debt here either :)

I don't know, I guess its just a matter of arithmetic here - the money's not there so we need to just accept that and deal.

In short, fuck you and stop trying to dictate was is good for everyone else and mind your own goddamn business.

More of the same - paper tigers with stale vitriol. Patrick, there must be some way to track IP addresses of posters. I'm sure the data would yield what I suspect; thirty different handles belonging to one or two insurance goons who feel you're a threat to their Porsche payment.

blowero says

2ndClassCitizen says

Yeah and whoever smelt it dealt it.

Sorry I couldn’t resist just one more childish retort in honor of your keen (paranoid) detective skills. No way could anyone possibly agree with a 2ndClassCitizen like me.

Wow, you really zinged Some Guy. You sure is funny.

Just wondering if whoever smelt it dealt it made any sense to Some Guy.

Misstrial says

Sorry to bring this thread back up to the top again, but I have to ask:
With all of the debt ($11T so far) our country is in, wouldn’t it be better to get our financial house in order first before enacting a staggeringly expensive benefit program?
I think its the wrong time to pursue this, sorry.
Maybe when our financial house is in order, then yes, but not now.

You miss the point. If we don't reduce the costs of medicare (which requires reforming the entire system), we will have much more debt.

The alternative is just dropping medicare entirely. Good luck with that.

Basically, we pay around 4500 per capita (for every citizen) for Medicare to cover just seniors and the very poorest. Canada pays 3500 per capita to insure every citizen. So, in theory anyhow, we could cover every single citizen for just what we already pay for medicare and still pay almost 25% more than Canada per capita (which should buy us shorter wait times than Canada too, again, in theory). And that would be without paying a cent for private policies or without employers paying a cent of the money they currently pay for group insurance.

The point is, we're really that rich of a country, but we pay way, way too much for what we currently get (as in a lower life expectancy than Bosnia). It's hard to believe we cannot find some way to do better.

The health care "debate" and the emotion on both "sides" of the issue is not (at least in my humble opinion) as much about the complete lack of money to pay for any kind of public option as it is about the ability to choose. You can gripe all you want about our current state of affairs but the fact of the matter is that right now most people are happy to have the freedom we have. As government takes more control of the payment side, people are concerned that their relationship with their providers will be compromised. After all, he who pays the bills is the one who has the final say. If the government collective pays the bills, the final say is removed from me as a patient and put in the hand of some bureaucrat. Right now if I raise enough money or get enough of my friends to chip in we can buy any operation we need for anyone we know. But if the government takes control it will be in the hands of some bureaucrat who will most likely have the ability and motivation to make politically influenced decisions. If I can't at least use the fruits of my labor pursue my own happiness then the Declaration of Independence becomes meaningless.

Much of illness could be prevented by good habits and eliminating bad choices. Another reason why the idea of public health care is so distasteful is that it would not be just to subsidize the health care of individuals who make bad choices that result in their own diseases. Smoking, lack of exercise, poor diet, drug abuse: these are all choices that Americans SHOULD be allowed to make. However all Americans should not be responsible for the choices of other Americans. Meaning, if you smoke till you get lung cancer, or live a life of no exercise and bad nutrition till your heart gives out, why should anyone pay for your health care bills? By all means live the life you want to live, just don't ask me to pay for it.

Imagine we weren't talking healthcare but oil. Let's say we found out oil companies were charging us twice as much as other countries. And to add insult to injury, they were selling us a lower grade of oil. Would you think most people would be okay with that because the U.S. had greater choice of gas stations? And almost all other countries provide total free choice of doctor. As in Canada, their insurance is nationalized, not their doctors or hospitals.

And honestly, have you EVER dealt with an insurance company bureaucrat? My dentist put one on speakerphone for me recently to show me how incompetent and deceptive they were - they claimed to have "lost" a claim form he sent in 7 times in a year. A claim for $65. How much worse could government bureaucrats be?

Dude, you are ALREADY paying for people with the worst diets and habits through Medicare and, as you know, tax breaks for employer-based coverage. The only question is would you rather pay less and insure more people or continue to pay twice the going rate for a lesser outcome than everyone else (except like Uruguay). There are many, many options that could be discussed to drive down costs besides single payer. Too bad nobody in Washington is discussing most of them.

Ideally no one would have health insurance. We would all make a livable wage that allowed us to save up for a rainy day. A condition similar to this existed before 1913 in the United States. Our excess wealth would be used to insure ourselves. However the government has given us taxes which is uses to subsidize waste and bad behavior, and it has also given us inflation by authorizing the FED to create and control our money supply. It is burning the candle of our money (our only true means of freedom) at both ends by taxing it before we can earn it and devaluing our savings before we can spend them. Freedom is about who controls the money supply. Health care is just one of the freedoms the government is wresting from the people after it has taken control of our money supply.

Yes, but back in 1913, average life expectancy in the U.S. was around 48 years, and your doctor could fit all his instruments in a little black bag, including the bottle of ether he would use to knock you out. I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound particularly ideal to me.

Neither does living in a nursing home for your golden years.

Patrick Henry said it right.

There is no question that the current system sucks big time. If you deny that, i don't even want to talk to you. for the rest of the republicans, my sincere request is to come up with a SOLUTION to the current system. I know universal health care sucks too but what is your alternative ? can you republicans come with ideas to fix the current system ?
The best way to counter a proposal is to come up with a better one not just criticize the former.

"Ideally no one would have health insurance." Nice. Little bit utopian and idealistic, especially for you, friend. I like.

"Freedom is about who controls the money supply." Freedom? That's a stretch. That's a very loose, VERY loose use of the word freedom.

There's plenty of money out there, they print enough of it. This is about the haves and the have nots. It's also about an industry that has been increasing its cost at a rate soon to reach 20% of GDP. How else to control those increases except through govt intervention?

Constitutionalist,

You have it exactly 100% wrong, as usual.

>>2. TORT Reform

Howe many times do we have to post on this blog that the cost of malpractice is 0.46% of all healtcare spending as of 2001. How many times does he lie that TORT is the cause of high healthcare cost have to be repeated?

>>1. IMMIGRATION Reform

Now it is your turn to prove what % healtcare spending is for illegal immigrants.

>>This stupid health care proposal is a smoke screen for the real damage being done to our health care system by Lawyers and Illegal Immigrants.

No, it is the other way around: This stupid TORT and IMMIGRANTS proposal is a smoke screen for the real damage being done to our health care system by retarded right-wing Republicans and their corporate puppet masters.

I have yet to hear a solution from republicans for the current health care issue ..never heard.
so what do you republicans want us to do ...sit on our asses and do nothing ??
atleast by trying universal health care, we are trying something different than what exists today. you never know, it might turn out to be better than what exists today....but in the absense of any other solution, we should atleast give universal health care a chance.

Alot of what is in Obama's plan was originally Republican musings on healthcare, the idea of the national exchange of private insurers, for example. The problem is that your more conservative types want government out completely. They claim the market can regulate itself, but this is a very iffy proposition with healthcare. Healthcare is highly inelastic. When faced with their own premature deaths or disablement or the premature deaths or disablement of loved ones, people will sell off everything they own, and indebt themselves as far as they can, to pay for whatever care is available.

Imagine if you will, a middle class family with combined assets of $400,000 (owned assets, not debt). Their child gets sick, and the cost of a care is $500,000. They will sell their home and everything they own, then indebt themselves the additional $100,000 if possible to save that child. The rational thing, baring the couple having infertility issues, is to let the kid go and have another, using their assets to do as much prenatal testing as possible to ensure the next child will be healthy. However, in a situation like this, most people can't do the purely rational thing. Human instinct is too powerful, and human instinct doesn't permit most people to put pricetags on their own lives and the lives of those they care about. As a result of human sensibility, in this example the price the market would bear for the care to save the child would still $500,000. Plainly speaking, this is the free market at work, as is denying coverage to those with preexisting conditions, as is recision of payment whenever possible, etc.

The free market is rational. Capitolism is perfect, when perfect beings are at the helm. However, humans are flawed, which is why we need regulation in capitolism.

renter for ever_san jose says

I have yet to hear a solution from republicans for the current health care issue ..never heard.
so what do you republicans want us to do …sit on our asses and do nothing ??
atleast by trying universal health care, we are trying something different than what exists today. you never know, it might turn out to be better than what exists today….but in the absense of any other solution, we should atleast give universal health care a chance.

I agree that a perfect free market exists only in the academic world but i don't agree that there is no free market solution to the problem.

"Imagine if you will, a middle class family with combined assets of $400,000 (owned assets, not debt). Their child gets sick, and the cost of a care is $500,000. They will sell their home and everything they own, then indebt themselves the additional $100,000 if possible to save that child. The rational thing, baring the couple having infertility issues, is to let the kid go and have another, using their assets to do as much prenatal testing as possible to ensure the next child will be healthy. However, in a situation like this, most people can’t do the purely rational thing. Human instinct is too powerful, and human instinct doesn’t permit most people to put pricetags on their own lives and the lives of those they care about. As a result of human sensibility, in this example the price the market would bear for the care to save the child would still $500,000.

If there is another hospital which can give the same treatment for $300K, the couple will choose them so the market price would be $300K not $500k. The market price is not determined by just demand but also by supply. your demand is inelastic ...but what about supply.I believe supply is screwed up too.
Another thing thats screwed up is that the couple would not even choose $300K for the same service because the insurance pay's $500K not them ...so they don't care. Its a very very difficult problem to solve and comes inherent with any insurance system.

Patrick,

You are getting conned by the system. People in power do not care about liberal / conservative, they care about control. They also don't care about black or white - they care about control.

There are more than two answers to a single problem and you seem to be implying that we either go with Obama's plan or some unknown plan of the protesters.

Think outside the box. People in control use emotion to agitate the people to get the mob away from the fact that they are parasitical.

Ask yourself a few questions before making emotional rants

1. Do illegal immigrants get a good deal? They are underpaid, and live in an off mainstream culture that takes advantage of them. Is this only because of Republicans? Seems a little odd since the Republicans control nothing. Is it possible that disingenuity on both sides might be keeping the status quo?

2. Health care - are the angry mobs really any different than the people protesting Iraq? They are not of a single opinion, so lumping them all together is short sighted. Maybe some of them want control of spending, maybe some of them have a better idea, maybe some of them just like yelling.

3. Black versus white - people are individuals. Once we stop dealing in categories and start dealing as individuals, this becomes much less relevant. Lazy people talk in generalizations as they are not willing to confront the issues where change can take place. Change comes from the bottom, not the top. Help an underprivileged kid and by doing so, you will illustrate what makes America great. America has great ideals, with fallible people living under them.

jdavidadams@email.com says

Patrick,
You are getting conned by the system. People in power do not care about liberal / conservative, they care about control. They also don’t care about black or white - they care about control.
There are more than two answers to a single problem and you seem to be implying that we either go with Obama’s plan or some unknown plan of the protesters.
Think outside the box. People in control use emotion to agitate the people to get the mob away from the fact that they are parasitical.
Ask yourself a few questions before making emotional rants
1. Do illegal immigrants get a good deal? They are underpaid, and live in an off mainstream culture that takes advantage of them. Is this only because of Republicans? Seems a little odd since the Republicans control nothing. Is it possible that disingenuity on both sides might be keeping the status quo?
2. Health care - are the angry mobs really any different than the people protesting Iraq? They are not of a single opinion, so lumping them all together is short sighted. Maybe some of them want control of spending, maybe some of them have a better idea, maybe some of them just like yelling.
3. Black versus white - people are individuals. Once we stop dealing in categories and start dealing as individuals, this becomes much less relevant. Lazy people talk in generalizations as they are not willing to confront the issues where change can take place. Change comes from the bottom, not the top. Help an underprivileged kid and by doing so, you will illustrate what makes America great. America has great ideals, with fallible people living under them.

^^ My vote for Post of the Day.

~Misstrial

"Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush."

That's not sayin' much ;) "Ten times smarter than Bush" puts him at about the "imbecile" level....

"Fuck you"

That's classy. And a PERFECT illustration of "Wanna see INSTANT HATE? Disagree with a Libbie ;) lol

You ARE an OWhammy Zombie ;) Now OWN it :)

Patrick - you have degraded yourself to street level talk by using somebody's crude language quote and your f word. Show respect. You lose credibility.

Regarding Gov't healthcare involvement - there are basic questions to be answered before going further. BTW - we have not seen the final package - the cost of new program, who gets it, what does it proviide, etc.

1. Is "affordable (or free for poor)" health care a right for everyone?
2. Can the Gov't afford it with muliti trillion annual deficit and Nat'l Debt?
3. What is the role of Gov't and is it Constitutional?

My brief answers are:
1. No, it is not a right to be paid by others (taking from taxes or gov't borrowing/money creation). Let charity do it. We are all dead in the long run in this short earthly life.
2. It is impossible that the Gov' can afford to take on a massive new program long term without PAIN such as massive taxation, bloating debts leading possibly to hyperinflation or other types of economic catastrophe.
3. It is not the proper role of Gov't and nowhere in the Constitution is stated so. The new Gov't program feeds on the growing statism. In the long run it will lead to punitive medicine.

Another question - how is the new Gov't program (funded by taxpayers with new taxes and new borrowing) going to meet the new demand for doctors once millions and millions get on board?

Patrick - you need to add fairness in this discussion/debate by presenting other views such as the Austrian School and libertarian.

I have yet to hear a solution from republicans for the current health care issue ..never heard.

so what do you republicans want us to do …sit on our asses and do nothing ??

A nugget from one of the posters on Paul Krugman's blog:

"Steve Benen, asked to explain why people are against health care reform despite the obvious, gave a useful taxonomy. He divided opponents into the Greedy (who stand to lose), the Partisans (who want Obama to fail), the Tin-Foil Hats (who think reform is Soylent Green), and the Dupes (the useful idiots for any and all of the above)."