patrick.net

"As usual, it is Government intervention within the private markets which distort individual incentives/actions and create unsustainable situations."
Uh, tell me where the "Govenment intervention" has been regarding any drug or insurance company?
The government under Bush refused the perfectly reasonable competitive negotiations with Canadian drug suppliers to bring cheaper medications to the US. I'll bet India, with their huge pharmaceutical industry, could do even better.
Deregulation has been the mantra going back to Clinton, and it's got us a stock market crash, a housing crash, and a health care system that is pushing us rapidly toward third-world status.
I wish Americans weren't so damned insular, get out more!

Patrick,

Love your site and have contributed many articles in the past... but the biggest issue with this "health care reform" lies in the fact that they are trying to push a 1,000+ page bill through that is LOADED with side items that are NOT for the betterment of all and in fact, is downright unsettling.

Personally, I voted for Ron Paul (a wasted vote, right?) but I sleep good at night. I also "wasted" my vote in 92' & 96' on Ross Perot, Ralph Nader in 2000 and Dennis Kucinich in 2004. To me, I was still excercising my right to vote and not complicit or having to take a side and stand divided against somone because of the candidate they voted for. I would like to look forward to a day when we act as one, Americans all, but that day shall never come.

Thing is, health care reform, bailouts, housing bubbles, job losses and homelessness, food stamps, etc., they are all manufactured crisises of control. They are all byproducts of the what is worse in man... greed and the energy that drives it, fear. And sadly, the people who are running the show from the top down, know that the majority of people in this world are truly like sheep (sheople). They will bow down and do whatever they are told to do to hold on to what they perceive as being valuable (their homes, their cars, their big screen tv's, etc.). In fact, most people work so damn hard because they have to pay down a mortgage (along with their out of control credit cards, loans and lifestyle full of amenities, cell phone, cable, high speed internet, eating out and entertainment spending). When you can learn how to walk away from all of these things (I did, twice) it is SO liberating and when you have yourself, NOBODY can control you.

What we are witnessing right now in this country is the end of America as we knew it (I say knew as most people don't know their history so who even knows it). This has been in the works since America was founded. An extension of the British empire and more (always wondered with all the colors available why they chose Red, White and Blue? I never bought the supposed version). Follow the money trail and those who share similar names, lineage and political and religious circles and you'll understand more of what it's about. Doing things on behalf of MANY foreign interests and ask why the CFR (look up what Hillary admitted just 2 weeks ago about who runs the government) has so much control?

NAFTA and the NAU have been in the works for decades now (I first heard of the North American Union in a fictional book written like a Tom Clancy novel back in 1991). This housing bubble was by design!!! The collapse of the banking and monetary system is by design! The reason they are spending like crazy and loaning out money is the same reason why a person who finds out they have a week to live might decide to run up their credit cards and go out in style (even if they lack a bit of integrity). This is an END GAME RUN by the powers that be and in collapsing the economy, worldwide, they are bringing EVERYONE under one monetary system.

They have everyone use to using their zip cards (I say zip for ATM, debit and other convenient fast transaction devices), buying everything from centralized distribution points (look at Sam's Club, Costco, BJ's and the likes. They are independant standing buildings, warehouses, that aren't attached by way of sheetrock to another store and can be easily fortified or defended if need be. Perfect locations for distributing vaccinations and other mandated services as well as protecting rationed goods).

EZ-Pass devices which are owned by foreign interests (look it up) and prices they can raise because the sheeple (by that time) will just keep driving for convenience and not even think of the price (out of site, out of mind). And money that is beginning to look more and more funny and like Monopoly money. Why? The same reason you can plop down chips at a casino and not think of it as REAL money. It's not gold, or silver or something backed by anything (like our fiat currency). The system is a ponzy scheme and we are being shammed.

Lastly, as for black presidents. How black is he? Nobody mentions his white mom (like Marriah Carrey's or Alicia Keys or anyone else of mixed race). And isn't "The President" the highest position in the country? Does it need further definition by way of color or if they can wear a skirt? It's THE PRESIDENT, that's it. Remember all of those silly classmates of yours who when asked, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" would excitedly yell out, "I want to be the President!" Guess what... not happening. It's a chosen position with many strings attached. NOBODY gets there without making many deals, concessions and being groomed to do so.

There might be racism left in this country but there has always been CLASSISM and that is what we are fighting the world over. The haves have always sold out the havenots. People have always sold out their own kind.

I for one, I am not "an American" nor limited by my sex, sexual orientation. ethnicity or social status. I just happen to be a 2nd generation, heterosexual, white male living in America (for the census poll), but most of what I do in the 168 hours that constitutes a week (eat, sleep, s**t, shower and shave, commute, work, watch movies, play video games with my son, etc.) doesn't require that I be any of these things or otherwise. 99% of life is that way... we just complicate things.

Patrick, I've been aware of the housing bubble since 2000 when I owned. I bought a condo in 99' at $134,500 and sold at $299,000 at the peak in Sept. 2005.. Walked away from buying a new home at that time which cost me a marriage but she was very happy with my investment in bullion in at $8 and a portion sold when Buffet unloaded at $21. I had my own business and then NO JOB for some time through October of 2008 and then, by God's grace, a six figure job out of nowhere and a 5BR, 3Bath, 2 car garage house on an acre, furnished with water, sewer, security and landscaping and for a mere... drum roll... $1,200 a month in the best neighborhood in town. Point is... You know that "Secret" they were advertising for some time... I know what it is and it's nothing the majority is doing, in fact, it's the contary.

Guard your emotions, bring your energy back to your center (like you did with your singular focus on this site's focus) and don't give away your power to negativity (as Benjamin Frankin said, "It brings it's own").

Condolences to you for the loss of your parents... and keep up the good work...

Jack

Patrick,

The gulf between the two sides of this argument is vast because it reflects a fundamental difference of morality. On one side you have people who believe in freedom of association, that all human relationships should be mutually beneficial. To put it another way these people believe that is wrong to steal and wrong to accept stolen goods so they are against any healthcare scheme that involves government coercion, even if they would "benefit" because they are poor.

On the other side of the debate are those who believe that people are too stupid to do what's "best". They think that government should step in and force relationships between people to exist that otherwise would not. In other words, to hell with mutually beneficial relationships, people should be ruled by force and violence. These people are your socialists, communists, and totalitarians, and you are one of them Patrick, so in short, fuck you. It looks like socialized education has failed you.

By the way, if you think insurance companies are mismanaged, inefficient, and/or evil, go start your own. You're still free to do that in modern America, but possibly not for long once we get the government "option".

Yes, I’ve descended to their level. I’m a bit ashamed of the f-word, but otherwise at a loss for how to express just how stupid medical reform opponents are being. They seem perfectly willing to cut their own throats just to express their displeasure with:
1. Having lost the election.

2. Having lost the election to a black man.

3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush.

Patrick, it didn't take you long to call anyone who opposes 0bamaCare, 'racists'. How trite and how expected. Thanks for clearing up any doubt any of us had about YOUR own level of discourse.

Again, I'm dismayed that a discussion on health care reform seems to have skipped past an examination and establishment of:
(1) root issues (care too expensive? care quality not good enough? etc)
(2) causes of those root issues (is care too expensive because providers are trying to recoup other losses? Or are they just being excessively greedy? etc)

I'm glad Patrick linked to Denninger's reform proposal points today; for those of you who might have missed it: Fixing Health Care: A Real Solution

Patrcik, you are and have ever been a complete gentleman.

You can't have a serious debate with anyone calling themselves Wanker.

I think the race of the president is a huge unspoken issue, and much of the opposition to rational health care reform is actually opposition to having a black man as president, "sublimated" as the psychiatrists would say.

There is also the religious belief in free markets even where they clearly can't and don't exist, as in health care, but I'm guessing that's a smaller issue.

Rational debate just isn't going to work unless the driving forces are really clear. Right now, those forces are clear only to Karl Rove, and he's not going to break character and tell you how it all really works.

In fact, I think you can explain the opposition to gun control, to good public transit, and to universal health care as fear of black people and Mexicans, and a bigger fear of their getting a free ride at the expense of white people. At least to some degree.

My mother died shortly before the election. In one of my last conversations with her, I asked her who she'd vote for if she had gotten an absentee ballot. She looked at me like I was crazy and said, "The WHITE man!"

kthomas says

Patrcik, you are and have ever been a complete gentleman.
You can’t have a serious debate with anyone calling themselves Wanker.

LOL, your 'keen observations' are astounding, sockpuppet. You join today but you have the knowledge of a Dr. Phil and can read people as if they were books. I'm so duly impressed. Thanks for sharing justmoi/Some Gee. Your sock drawer just keeps growing and growing. Must have nothing better to do.

I think the race of the president is a huge unspoken issue, and much of the opposition to rational health care reform is actually opposition to having a black man as president, “sublimated” as the psychiatrists would say.
There is also the religious belief in free markets even where they clearly can’t and don’t exist, as in health care, but I’m guessing that’s a smaller issue.
Rational debate just isn’t going to work unless the driving forces are really clear. Right now, those forces are clear only to Karl Rove, and he’s not going to break character and tell you how it all really works.
In fact, I think you can explain the opposition to gun control, to good public transit, and to universal health care as fear of black people and Mexicans, and a bigger fear of their getting a free ride at the expense of white people. At least to some degree.
My mother died shortly before the election. In one of my last conversations with her, I asked her who she’d vote for if she had gotten an absentee ballot. She looked at me like I was crazy and said, “The WHITE man!”

Oh, you are right. No one pointed out that Obama is 'black' (he's actually a Mulatto, but why quibble). Until you pointed it out, I had no idea the man had black heritage. Thanks reducing all discourse into black and white. Jeremiah Wright, Obama's mentor for more than 20 years, would agree with you without question. Anyone who opposes ObamaCare is racist. I wonder why Obama and his thugz don't run with that tagline. I'm sure all those who oppose ObamaCare will be won over by your keen observations.

It simply isn't helpful to disparage the other side's thoughts and emotions by making absurd assumptions like "being upset because you lost an election to a black man." That's insulting and absurd (I voted 3rd party, as if it matters for the issue, but feel the need to disclose before being labeled a Republican).

I just see a striking disconnect here. Patrick.net has done a great job showing how the realtors, clueless buyers, lying press articles, and horrendous government policies led to a housing bubble that nearly destroyed our economy and left many 20-40 year olds waiting patiently, but remorsefully, for the market to normalize so that we can buy.

We've seen how many horrible housing "solutions" came from the government, from the Fannie/Freddie scandals to the bailouts to govt.-encouraged mortgage adjustments to taxpayer-funded $8000 gifts for new buyers to govt.-encouraged foreclosure freezes. When I listen to most of the politicians discuss the housing crisis, from Obama to Barney Frank to McCain, I can't believe how clueless they are.

This is just housing. My family can get over renting and being screwed repeatedly by Washington and the baby boomer generation. It's just money. I don't trust these same clowns with my family's health. That's the issue. Period. I think they're all incompetent. I don't want them handling healthcare.

And yes, I have had to use my health care plan. My wife became seriously ill with an MRSA-type infection in her lungs while pregnant, was hospitalized for a long time, and came very close to dying. The care she got was amazing, and I'm extremely happy with her plan. Please don't insult the motives of those of us strongly opposed to government intervention, and I won't question yours.

Patrick, I wholeheartedly agree with your opinions on the housing market, but completely disagree with you on healthcare.

I think it is a pretentious straw man argument to bring up race in this debate. Just because your mother was a racist (per your comment), doesn't mean I am because I don't think Obama's healthcare plan is good for the country. I guess I should just lie down and shut up though because Obama is black, so he must be right.

BTW, the overwhelming majority of these people are not "medical reform" opponents, they are "Obama medical reform opponents". There's a big distinction. In order for a real debate on medical reform to occur, Obama healthcare proponents need to stop the false arguments. This is NOT about race... and it's NOT about Obama's healthcare plan or the highway. Yes Patrick, there are infinite options between no reform and Obama's reform. These options are what we should all be discussing instead.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes, I’ve descended to their level. I’m a bit ashamed of the f-word, but otherwise at a loss for how to express just how stupid medical reform opponents are being. They seem perfectly willing to cut their own throats just to express their displeasure with:

1. Having lost the election.
2. Having lost the election to a black man.
3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush."

ChrisM says

BTW, the overwhelming majority of these people are not “medical reform” opponents, they are “Obama medical reform opponents”. There’s a big distinction.

I think you just agreed with me.

People know we need health care reform, but they cannot accept any idea that comes from Obama. And I think I explained why.

Patrick,

I'm truly surprised that you've accepted so readily Obama's disingenuousness on health care reform. That, and that you also rotely recite the Democrat talking points as if they were established fact. They are actually in great dispute.

American health care is expensive and does need reform: precisely because of the government's involvement. Medicare is a $30 trillion unfunded liability after only forty years of operation, and while providing care for only a subset of Americans. It is an unmitigated disaster that the new 'reform' has essentially copied and writ large for all Americans (that is, all Americans except federal employees and Congress, who will retain their gold-plated coverage). If Congress were serious about reforming the system for every American, why did every Democrat refuse to co-sponsor the amendment that would have required Congress and federal employees to join the system as well? I think you know the obvious answer: they got theirs and they're not going to risk their family's lives and health by joining the rest of us.

And what of the canard that U.S. health care is worse than third world care based on life expectancy? The U.S. has far superior survivability rates for major diseases than anywhere else in the world. We have the best, most widely available medical technology of anywhere in the world. Our life expectancies in this country are skewed by the number of violent deaths and other social pathologies (esp. drugs) not present in the cultures to which we are most often compared. These pathologies have nothing to do with our health care system.

The president has guaranteed that we will be able to keep our coverage and doctors if we like them. Wrong. Your employer will make that decision for you. If they decide to change providers, you will be forced into the public plan. Obviously the public plan with its subsidies is going to crowd out private insurance. This is Econ 1A, as is the inevitability of health care rationing. When demand for free health care is unlimited, quite obviously supply will ultimately need to be rationed. That and the fact that lower, Medicare level hospital and doctor reimbursements will drive doctors out of the profession and will discourage the best and brightest from pursuing careers is medicine. Medicare patients already have difficulty finding doctors because they are a money-losing proposition for the doctor. Private insurance patients effectively subsidize Medicare patients by paying higher prices. And even at that, Medicare is a freaking fiscal disaster!

Another reason that health care is expensive in the U.S. is that we subsidize the rest of the world. Drug companies sell drugs to the EU and Canada at much lower prices because those countries mandate the discounts. The drug companies can afford to sell at low prices abroad because they still make tiny marginal profits. They would NEVER be able to fund the development of new drugs from such low margins were those low prices mandated in the larger American market. Sure, they spend a lot on marketing and 'me-too' drugs, but that is part of the capitalist system that has quite obviously shown itself to be far superior at allocating resources than any other system. This is why nearly all major pharmaceutical companies have relocated to the United States. The number of wonder drugs developed here absolutely dwarfs the number developed in the more socialized Europe and elsewhere.

Yes, there are many nuances to this debate--but it is a debate that we would not even be having if the anti-democratic mob running Congress were not stopped in its tracks by these town hall protests. I certainly don't agree with shouting down our representatives, simply because I believe that their arguments are so horribly flawed and simple to rebut (see above) that shouting is unnecessary. However, I certainly can understand why people's passions are inflamed. Every single American uses health care and the great majority of us like our coverage just fine. And we are justifiably scared that in order to fix a 10-20 percent problem, an inept Congress is going to destroy the entire system with a hastily-written bill prepared by lobbyists feeding at the trough (oops, there goes another Obama campaign promise down the toilet).

I am simply saying that we are extremely distrustful of a Congress that votes on 1,000 page bills without any idea of the contents. We are extremely distrustful of a Congress and administration who sought to jam this extremely important legislation down our throats without debate of any kind. There is NO EXCUSE for our leader's behavior--especially in the context of an administration that pledged to be the most open and transparent ever. So far, not a single piece of important legislation (the stimulus, Cap & Trade, health care) this session have been made available for anyone to see prior to votes being called for. This, my friend, is unmitigated horseshit.

It is very easy to make partisan slurs (I'm a registered Independent, not a Republican), but were I a Democrat, I'd be goddamned embarrassed by the tactics and invective being used by my party. It seems that protest--no matter how nasty and ad hominem) was fine when it was protesting the GOP, but if anybody dares to call into question or protest Democrat policies, why, those people are clearly an un-American, unruly mob of Nazis. Now really, if that is not the epitome of hypocrisy I don't know what is.

Finally, there is great irony in a man--who has built a great website that among other things has exposed the abject failure of the government-sponsored Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac--supporting Obamacare. It is an undeniable fact that the more the government is involved in an industry, the more screwed up it is (e.g., the airlines, public education, Post Office, Amtrak, energy). Does health care need reform? Yes! Create a truly free market by 1) removing government-imposed coverage mandates 2) by removing goverment restrictions on the purchase of health insurance policies across state lines 3) by eliminating tax deductibility of health care expenses by corporations and giving it instead to individuals 4) by expanding health care savings accounts 5) by standaridizing on a secure health record data format to be used by all providers and 6) by ensuring that assistance was provided to those who truly need it. We could easily solve the pre-existing condition restriction issue with larger risk pools or other ideas. These simple steps would unleash the powers of choice and flexibility into the market that has been inhibited by government mandates and restrictions. These common sense steps would actually reduce COST. An impossibly complex and unworkable Congressional Rube Goldberg concoction will cause costs to soar by more trillions as the Congressional Budget Office itself has determined.

Whew. I guess this means that we're not meeting for coffee when I get back from vacation, eh?

Patrick,

As one of your earliest fans, I am disappointed to see you using expletives publicly. :(

I'm sorry you lost your parents, it is a tragedy to lose both so close to one another.

Medicare has helped my family as well, but that doesn't mean it's a good system. Medicare, IS a socialized medicine, AND it is one of the those "great" public programs that have ruined our federal fiscal balance sheet.

Medicare and Medicaid, have created trillions of debt for the US tax payer.

Medicare and Medicaid are corrupt, used and abused.

Currently, as YOU just pointed out in your own posting, if a person doesn't have insurance, medicare and medicaid will step in.

I had family that was in a fatal car accident. He didn't have insurance, and medicare paid for all his expenses. The total was $300,000.

I'm sure he is "happy", that 150 Million US tax payers (including myself) donated to his medical bills. Especially since he was out late at night, drinking, druggin and driving, and wrapped the car around a tree.

So, we DO have socialized medicine. For all kinds of people.

You point out that Fire, Police, and Elementary teachers are socialized, and are fine.

This is false.

If you want to maintain this opinion, you must accept the truth that these govt. roles are local, not FEDERAL. Local govt. services are always better than federal. The higher you go up, the poorer quality a citizen will receive. So, these levels are good, because they are local.

Also, Police, Fire, etc, have it's own problems, just look at your own site, with the "retirement spiking" articles you have posted.

If you REALLY want to compare govt. to govt. (apples to apples), you should research other wonderful federal Govt. programs that have been "successful."

Such as Fannie Mae, and Freddie Mac. How did that turn out?

How about Amtrak?

Should I point out others?

Anything the Federal Govt. touches, it ruins.

Patrick,

The government IS in the business of subsidizing health insurance (through tax breaks to employers but not employees health expenses which began in the Nixon years). And it is subsidizing health care costs by large fee for service programs like medicare which by nature remove accountability to consumers from the mix and rely on taxpayers for the majority of funds. The requirements for payment out of pocket do essentially require a person be broke to get full benefits, and these rules are also designed and enforced by the government.

Do you seriously want to continue this insane subsidy, and expand it rather? The government (in bed with insurance companies) gave us this system. They inflated this bubble. They want to make it bigger.

Don't be fooled. Health care is a good/service just like housing. When prices get so far out of line that no one can pay they will have to level off or come down. The only thing that will prevent prices from normalizing that is if we continue to subsidize bad behavior with tax exemptions for employers to purchase health insurance (subsidizing health insurance), and giving "free" fee for service health care as in programs like Medicare (directly subsidizing health care expenses).

You do understand what a subsidy is? (any form of coercion or redistribution of money that the free market would not normally choose). We do not have a free market system in health care, we have a government/insurance corporation monopoly driving costs up and choice down. Can't we realize that so we can fix the problem rather than expand it? Stop inflating the HEALTH CARE BUBBLE!

Worrying about socialism now is a bit like worrying about being a virgin after you're pregnant. China is literally far more pro market than we are here. I have run businesses in different countries and by far the most excessive (and irrelevant) red tape I've experienced is right here.
To those worrying about the "free market" in US health care:

1) We pay far more for drugs than any other nation. Most of them are developed right here. In a free market it is not possible to gouge a huge bloc of consumers while charging another group a vastly different price.

2) Rich Americans are in worse health than the poor in other first world countries. There are hundreds of million of people in first world countries who swear by a public OPTION. If you want private care pay for it.

3) If you haven't experienced public health care and are against it you are literally speaking about something you don't know about. Shouting doesn't equal knowledge.

Patrick,

I ask respectfully, do you not think there are any legitimate reasons someone might oppose Obama's plan? Is the plan so perfect that racism is the only possible explanation for anyone who opposes it? Besides being incredibly presumptuous and insulting, that just seems to defy logic. A large number of people were also against Hillarycare in '93 and that was obviously not an issue of racism.

For what it's worth I'd endorse Deninnger's plan 100%.

m1ckey6,

So you are saying we are socialists already? Yeah, that's about right. Well, actually we have more of a fascist system where the government chooses which companies win or lose. In true socialism the collective (aka government) would own everything (ask USSR how well that works).

Some Guy,

Were the writers of the Declaration of Independence and Constitution anarchists?

Then why did they not trust the government to do most things and instead relegated the bulk of powers to the individual states? You see they knew what an oppressive government looked like, and unfortunately the US government is now just as if not more oppressive than Britain was of the colonies in 1776.

This is because we have forgotten history and failed to enforce the Constitution which is the only true law of the land.

SomeGuy,

You are just creating strawmen. No, I don't feel the need to move to Iraq. I don't favor disbanding military, police, fire fighters, etc. So, when you're done with your strawmen, what did you actually refute?

There are some services I prefer the government handle, like the ones you mentioned. There are some I don't. Patrick.net has shown how these fools in Washington have seriously screwed up the housing market. I don't think the odds are good that they can do it well with health care. Extending the argument to absurdities (arguing against military, firefighters, etc.) is a red herring.

You say I am against "fixing" healthcare. No, I would also prefer a system that's cheaper, more effective, etc. But if the government is going to fix healthcare just like it's "fixing" the economy and "fixing" the so-called credit crisis and "fixing" housing, I don't want to subject my family to that fix.

And what really worries me is that the politicians aren't honestly addressing what we'd have to give up to fix it their way. So far, it's nothing but hastily submitted, massive bills with promises that it will be cheaper, better, not affect care for those who are already happy, etc. Candor over fluffy, pie-in-the-sky lies is important.

Some Guy,

I hope you will read my posts and also do some research on your own to find that the government (in bed with health insurance companies) gave us this system.

They inflated the health care bubble by their policies and now you want to give them more power.

Who was it who had the quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Stop the madness. Stop the health care bubble by getting government out of the mix!

I have to say, one of the things that truly makes me laugh when I see these town hall meeting idiots, is their complete and utter inability to draw a distinction between socialism and communism.

Anytime somebody even remotely brings up the notion of the government running something, people scream to blue heaven that we are on our way to fascism and communism. What that demonstrates is the complete inability of people to understand the definitions of the terms. It smacks of such unbelievable ignorance that I am just stunned sometimes by the sheer weight of the stupidity I see in my fellow countrymen.

And where were these same people during the Bush years when the government grew by HUGE amounts and basically started functioning as a shadow organization accountable to no one. The suspension of habeas corpus. The warrantless wiretapping. The removal of people in specific positions because they disagreed with the administration. (Attorney firings) The outing of a CIA agent. A war fought based on lies and false pretense. Cronyism. Et Cetera, Et Cetera.
Were the people at these town hall meetings vocalising the FASCISM that was occurring there? I wonder.

From a political standpoint, we ALL agree that we need health care reform. All the stats and polls agree with that assertion. My only issue with Obama right now is he is trying to move it along too quickly without thinking it through. As someone who lived in Canada but is now a US citizen, I will agree that the Canadian system is better than the US one. But it is NOT the best in the world. France holds the number one spot for health care in the world and their system is actually a hybrid. So yes, lets tackle health care reform. But lets think it through and discuss it in a CIVIL manner. Not act like a bunch of petulant children.

Some Guy,

BTW, I did not let Bush trample all over our rights any more than you did. If you agree that we need to enforce the Constitution then please join me in spreading the word.

Well, this is tiresome and why I normally lurk instead of post, but I was surprised by Patrick's racism accusation and wanted to post.

Some guy, most of the government services you mentioned as good examples (police, fire fighters, waste treatment), etc., are local ones, not federal ones. But I also support having an FBI, CIA, military, etc., so I have no blanket opposition to federal government for certain roles. Yes, I do have an opposition to government-run health care for the reasons I already mentioned in my first post. There's no need to keep regurgitating them.

This is a problem with forums and much political dialogue - to argue against the opposition, their positions are reduced to simple absurdities (you're racist, you're socialist, you're anarchist). We end up shouting past each other and repeating the same talking points over and over again while calling those that disagree fools.

To sum up (and to make my last post on the issue to avoid spamming unless something substantive is really being debated vs. the common "you're an idiot if you don't agree with me" stuff), I posted for these reasons:

1. Shock that Patrick would accuse those against the govt healthcare of being racists. Surely, there's a small fraction that are driven by this, but the reasonable majority of those on each side of the issue should talk civilly and without insults. If I'm against Obama's housing policies instead of his health care, does that make me a racist?

2. Patrick.net has highlighted how much worse the Bush and Obama administrations have made the housing crisis. I find it striking that many Patrick readers believe the same politicians responsible for hastily pushing through such lame housing legislation can hastily push through effective healthcare reform legislation.

That's all. Thanks for reading and commenting.

Finally, some one asked the damn question:

Sen Clair MaCaskill asked "how many have medicare... now do you want to get rid of it" no hands went up

http://www.examiner.com/x-5738-St-Louis-Political-Buzz-Examiner~y2009m8d11-Video--Senator-Claire-McCaskill-keeps-calm-and-cool-amongst-uncivil-town-hall-crowd

(second video)

When I see, the old, pissed-off people shouting, "keep government out of it", I think
- they are on medicare
- they are probably drawing social security
both are govt programs! The hypocrisy is astounding.

(Now we know social security & medicare are under funded, but that is another problem)

Diomedes,

I suggest you study how the nazis ran their government/economy with a federal-business partnership just about everywhere you looked. You will find numerous parallels with our own system, growing more and more fascist since Bush came to office and unfortunately Obama is not undoing those changes but rather expanding on them.

OK TXG - lets debate:

>> Lost in the shouting are legitimate questions regarding reform:

Please acknowledge that a lot of the shouting is coming from certain kinds of people who do not seem to have thought through - well anything.

>> What effect will it have on medical innovation, seeing as how the US currently carries the world’s water in this area?

No effect. Drug companies get paid by government or by private insurance. But they get paid regardless. Even with the public plan, the US will spend more per capita on health insurance than any other country in the world. If that is not enough to "hold the world's water", then I guess it is time to pour some of it down on other countries.

>> Will we have enough doctors to service the increased demand?

An acquaintance of mine lost his job and was told by his insurance company that is $550 dollar a month insurance "does not cover doctor visits". Please take a moment and imagine that. An insurance plan that costs an arm and a leg but does not include doctor visits! I mean - seriously - how much worse can it get?

The government plan will pay doctors market rates. When demand increases, those rates go up and eventually that will cause supply to go up. That is how markets work. The only real losers here are the insurance companies. I am guessing the demand for their $550 insurance plan that "does not cover doctor visits" is going to be slightly affected.

>> How will abuses (excessive emergency room visits, lifelong smoking, etc.) in the system be handled?

Copay.

Some Guy says

2ndClassCitizen says

Some Guy,

I hope you will read my posts and also do some research on your own to find that the government (in bed with health insurance companies) gave us this system.

They inflated the health care bubble by their policies and now you want to give them more power.

Who was it who had the quote about doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

Stop the madness. Stop the health care bubble by getting government out of the mix!

I hope YOU do some research. Then you might realize that the high prices you pay are going straight to the PRIVATE insurance industry, not the government. Look up the salaries of the CEOs of the major health insurance companies. Look up how much they have given to members of Congress to influence their votes. Stop the madness indeed.

Some Guy,

Actually the high prices are a result of the government granted monopolies of insurance companies through tax exemptions for employer purchased health insurance (established by your beloved government) and through fee for service programs like Medicare that take virtually all accountability to consumers out of the mix.

Government/insurance industry together blew this bubble. Can't you see it????

And what is all this rubbish about the 'government screwing up housing'? The government may have contributed, but the real crime was Wall Street. They created the derivatives engine that fueled this mania and it was DEREGULATION and the removal of Glass-Steagle that additional fueled this great unwinding. The Fed, for all its government links, is NOT a government agency. It was originally created by bankers as a way to avoid depressions. Why? Not because they were an empathic bunch; but because depressions hurt their assets. So they devised a wonderful scheme whereby they could crush the dollar anytime they wanted by creating monetary inflation thereby ensuring their asset values remained high. Of course, it all blew up in the Great Depression and recently. Demonstrating that anytime you tinker with something that is simply supposed to be governed by natural likes (like a spring) you get what we have now.

The government did add to the mess with those idiotic Fannie and Freddie agencies. But that was just adding a small amount of gasoline to an already burning forrest.

"I suggest you study how the nazis ran their government/economy with a state business partnership...."

Rubbish.

permanent_marker, we are a most hypocritcal people.

Diomedes,

In case you hadn't noticed. Wall street has been running our government for years. Rubin and Paulson ring a bell? In Goldman we trust.

kthomas,

if you don't understand history you will most likely get the opportunity to repeat it

Here's the big mistake: People are fighting and getting distracted from the essential which is the fundamental right to accessibility to quality healthcare without discrimination about your income, race age and pre-existing conditions. There will always be an army to scare you about change, always.

I heart Patrick.

It's obviously true what you said about the political bias of many "puppets" of the health care
special interests. I would change number 3 to read:

3. Having lost the election to a black man who is ten times smarter than Bush, and 15 times smarter than they are.”

The good news is that republican party which isn't all bad, but is dominated by corporate interests, and the interests of the rich, has destroyed itself, with the tactics it employed to gain a majority. It started back with the so called "moral majority." This was a way to break in to the conservative southern part of the democratic party. But it has now gone so far, that even many of the the corporate puppet masters must be ashamed of the Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Anne Coulter types who spew ignorance and hatred (which does have an appeal to many) as it main theme.

Live by the sword, die by the sword. At this point, the rich combined with the low brow "white trash" constituency just aren't enough for them to win elections. Still, i do fear how our current economic situation plays out.

Many republicans now must actually hope for such extreme failure of Obama, and for things to be so terrible that fear mongering and hatred can bring them back to power. Ironically some of them refer to Obama as Hitler like.

2ndClassCitizen, agreed. I just think your Nazi analogy is rubbish. Don't take it personal.

Please excuse the digression. I know this thread was supposed to be about health care reform. Many previous comments, including Patrick's reflected my point of view. The president did a good job yesterday as well. I heard it wasn't even covered by Fox.

"Fair and balanced" baby.

rhaman, your freedoms will remain intact. You will still have a private option.

Rhaman, did you read this ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/health/policy/10facts.html?_r=1&ref=patrick.net

It's from today's list of Links by Patrick.

Let me guess. You don't need to. Just a "gut feeling ?"

Also Rhaman,... Let's hope that you never have a preexisting condition. For that matter, hopefully
you never get sick and only pay your premiums (or your employer does as a benefit).

Under those circumstances, you and your insurer will remain very happy with your "freedoms."

justicular says

Perhaps some of those opposed to this do not believe that this is the roll of the federal government. Let us assume they can do it better and cheaper, does that make it the roll of the government? At what price do we sell our freedom?

yeah, yeah, Federal govt can't do anything right.

So
- don't drive on freeways from now on (it is built by fed money)
- throw your grandma under a bus (she is likely no Medicare and we don't want to do that any more, right)
- shutdown the defense department & dissolve the armed forces
- shutdown VA (Veterans Affairs) hospitals, so our men in uniform can pay out of their own pocket for that war injury.
- FDA won't check imported food from China, so if you die from lead poisoning, it is too bad.

And 'freedom' are you going to give away? you can still keep your overpriced private health insurance. You don't have to get the 'public option'... it is called OPTION, get it?

Don't take any thing you read on Interwebs, including this comment, and written by some one called 'I-can-see-russia-from-my-house' :-)