patrick.net

Calling any side "death panels" is an bios simplification. They are just individuals looking for their best interest. The interesting part is that Americans will have to realize that a pure market system where there are no rules of the games (except guaranteeing the private property), can make wonders to produce and sell potatoes, but is extremely inefficient selling medical insurance. A society that chooses to follow always the same strategy without questioning it validity, is condemn to disappear.

Said that, I'd like to know if somebody has a strong (economical) argument for the public option vs. just reforming the market. Moral points, like "a well-off society has to care about the less fortunate" are reasonable but not what I'm asking for.

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.

How about starting slowly, government does not have the required trillions of $ for Obama health care reform proposal.

The CEO of Whole Foods wrote the following article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

nosf41 says

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.

OK, so what would YOU do to reform health care?

I don't understand why so many people are opposed to spending 1 trillion dollars on Universal Healthcare for ten years, but so few people care that the Pentagon spends over $600,000,000,000 every year with nothing to show for it.

Universal Healthcare will improve the health of millions of people in this country. What has been the benefit of killing thousands of people in Iraq or Afghanistan? or throwing money away on weapons systems that are outmoded before they are deployed, and spending more money on defense than the rest of the world combined.

Our military couldn't even stop 4 guys with box cutters. According to the Pentagon's own list, there are 865 U.S. military bases around the world, not including Iraq and Afghanistan. Close half of those bases, bring the troops home, and we'll have more than enough money to pay for healthcare. Of course, that would require "real change" in this country.

JFK tried that change, but the C.I.A. and the Joints Chiefs of Staff were opposed to it. Please read "JFK and the Unspeakable, Why He Died and Why It Matters" by James W. Douglass.

http://www.treatmentinindia.com/surgery/patient-stories/shoulder-surgery/

Look for many other examples.

Stick with housing, Patrick.

I think it would be rather easy too come up with a far better system, as we have the diverse examples of literally every other developed nation to study and learn from. It's like having 60 years of case studies done with hundreds of millions of subjects testing out a wide range of healthcare plans that all have 3 things in common: they cover all citizens, and they have comparable (or better) outcomes, and they pay around half as much as we do. So what's stopping us from learning from the success and failures of every country from Germany to Taiwan (many of which actually have LESS government involvement than we do)? Our massive and incredibly adept healthcare lobby.

And what else should we have expected when we handed over control of our industry to the "free market" forced of for-profit corporations? After all, it's their mandate to maximize shareholder profits, not to extend life expectancy or provide better patient outcomes. Our system gives us exactly what we should expect from any corporate run healthcare system: dazzling innovation in techniques and medicines that make the biggest products and equally dazzling neglect of all other areas of healthcare that don't provide as much money per transaction, most notably primary care, preventative care, and access to care.

The best we can hope from the current process is a mandate for universal coverage, for without universal coverage, we will end up either utterly unable to control spiraling costs or with a system of rationing that would make Palin's Death Panel scenario seem tame by comparison. But whatever the outcome, we will need to revisit this issue again and again until we finally get it right, because the particular political theater we're currently witnessing is being scripted for both parties by the healthcare lobby. So for this round, at least, they are bound to end up with more profits regardless of the outcome.

nosf41 says

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.
How about starting slowly, government does not have the required trillions of $ for Obama health care reform proposal.

But we have the required trillions of $ that we will be spending on medicare during the same time period?

The CEO of Whole Foods wrote the following article:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

The CEO of whole foods is a guy who makes his living selling overpriced bullshit to people with more money than time to spend actually studying the facts about what it is that they're getting -- kind of like the way that we currently handle medical care. Nothing more fitting than taking advice from a guy who's entire business is based on selling people stuff that they don't need.

nosf41 says

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.

OK, so what would YOU do to reform health care?

1. Remove any laws preventing insurance companies to offer their services across state lines.
2. Make medical costs transparent - everybody should pay some portion of their health care bill from their own pocket.
3. Tort reform - good doctors should not be forced to pay six figure (US$) amounts for insurance from lawsuits.
4. Balance the government budget to reduce the tax burden. Ever increasing government deficits and national debt will require higher taxes, thus leaving people with less money for everything else including health care.
This includes reducing the military budget: close the majority of overseas bases and return the troops home.

Right on Patrick. The entire American health care system is a piece of shit! People and employers need to grow up and stop paying their stupid health insurance premiums for a change. Maybe then they will get the message. They don't get any money from me and I'm far more more healthy than all their Zombies on drugs. I just wish others would do the same.

Just an opinion from some one that has experienced european health care and the american private one. There is nothing to fear about universal health care! it is great and the republicans do not want you to know it.
I do not understand why the American people do not hit the streets protesting for the health care reform just like they did when supporting Obama.
I grew up and lived in Italy. I had a doctor that made house calls; when my son was born his pediatrician made house calls; I could call her directly and speak to her "the doctor" not the nurse any time. 3 days of the week I could stop at her office without appointment. It happened that few times I had to run to the emergency room; guess what? No waiting lines! All this cost me nothing! I have a "good" health care plan here but I have anxiety over loosing it if I lose my job. I think all Americans will relax even those that oppose health care reform if we had a European style health care. It is such a great think having not to worry about getting sick or losing your job and health care benefits with it. It is worth to pay a little more tax to have peace of mind. One thing more in Italy there is private and public health care providers; but if you have something serious most people will trust the public hospital over the private because it is about health and not profit!!! I do not trust doctors here much because i am not sure if it is for my benefit or theirs.

For someone who has studied the effects of government policy on the housing market and the economy I am amazed Patrick advocates further government in health care. Yes, many insurance companies are awful. Here is a brief article by someone who has been at odds with the worst ones for decades. He names some good ones as well

Health Care War!
http://www.moneyandmarkets.com/health-care-war-35069

I agree with nosf41, competition is the best solution. Insurance companies have “bought” their territories from State legislatures. This is an infringement on individual freedom and Federal run insurance would be an even greater loss of freedom.

The proposition
“Every Other Country Has Universal Health Care - And It Works”
is false.

Here is a link to many horror stories from the British press.

http://www.neoperspectives.com/britishhealthcare.htm

Even the NY Time was critical of British Healthcare
until Obama started pushing for it

British Balance Benefit vs. Cost of Latest Drugs
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/03/health/03nice.html?_r=2

Thomas Sowell who is one of Americas foremost economists and historians
has several recent articles on the subject:

Care versus control

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell080509.php3

Whose medical decisions? I. II, III, & IV

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell081809.php3

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell081909.php3

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell082009.php3

http://jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell082109.php3

Do not give up your Liberty, your Freedom to choose!

jackanderson129 I am sorry but maybe you should be more concerned about the thousands and thousands of horror stories in this country. And something needs to be done about it. Maybe for the real wealthy there is freedom to choose here but not for the rest of the nation. No system is perfect and maybe we could do a better job than the British!

I do have a problem that we spend billions of dollars on failed military projects and "wars" we'll never win, yet allow American people to starve, drown (Katrina), and die from lack of appropriate medical care.

No! Patrick you are wrong. What are you reading? The countries that have socialist healthcare are looking at how to reverse the disaster they have created. Of course the Communist dictatorships will never reverse to freedom because they want absolute control over their serfs. Read F.A. Hayeks The Road to Serfdom to learn of the dangers of government control. The gov't creates the problem and then throws tons of money at it to create a huge bureaucratic mess; but the process solidifies their power. Let the free market work. Right now the cost is what it is because of excessive gov't regulation. But if we eliminate gov't regulation and provide for free market competition, we will see the price come down. It is a law of economics. And by the way, the Dems have no original idea, only more gov't and more taxes. At least the Republicans tried the HSA and other creative ideas. But the only solution is to get the gov't out of medicine. Get the gov't out of med schools and get the gov't out of Dr's offices. And stop the regulators from telling Dr's how to run their practice and dictating all of the regulatory BS. This all cost alot of money folks and who do you think pays the bill. That's right, you do.

We must dismantle the New Deal and the Great Society and all other Democreat power grabs. And shame on the Republicans for playing along and not really being true to their principles of limited gov't and the free market and thus liberty and freedom. We have not been a free nation for probably about 70-80 years because the mantra has been established into our national psyche: "What's the gov't going to do for me?"
It was Johann Wolfgang Goethe who said, “None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.”

This weekend I noticed on the bulletin board of the local grocery store a sign attempting to raise funds to help for the medical costs for a young man that had been badly injured in a motorcycle accident and had no insurance or the personal wherewithall to pay for his ongoing rehabilitation costs. Such fundraisers are far too common, and are seen across a broad dempgraphic spectrum.

This particular person was very likely one of those "young healthy individuals" who thought that he had no need for medical insurance. This demonstrates very clearly the need for an individual manditate and the need for universal coverage. I'm sure this individual's ER treatement will ultimately be paid for by those with insurance or the wherewithall to pay thier medical costs directly, and his ongoing care will be paid medicaid (ultimately the taxpayers).

As a society, we have decided defacto, that everyone who needs medical care will get it through some mechanism. The problem is that we provide those services in the most inefficient, haphazard and costly manner possible. The current system also forces the costs of this inefficiency onto employers and taxpayers.

Great Article Patrick. This is a mentally sick country that has demons rooted in a population that has been programed to vote consistently against it's own best interest. It's the same ideology that allowed 100's of thousands of white Americans to die in the civil war who in most cases were too poor to ever own a slave but would send their only child off to die to defend a system that they would never see the full benefits of. This healthcare debate is not about "socialism" or any other nonsense distraction issue that they bring up. This is about white Americans fearing that their white tax dollars will go to benefit the health of minorities. It's not hard to figure out the simple minded. Their arguments simply do not hold up to logic. Rep: Anthony Weiner made a great point that left Joe Scarborough speechless when he asked him. "what value do health insurance provide to the healthcare industry? they don't provide one single check up, nor do they operate on people". For every dollar spent with private insurance $00.35 goes to admin cost including CEO swollen salaries. Medicare has only a 4% admin cost. And if gov't run health care was so evil and bad, why is it that ZERO republican politicians opt out of it and buy their own public plan. That should make any logically thinking person question the sincerity and judgment of the opposition. You don't want ME to have something you enjoy free. What I find even more disingenuous is that the Republican Gop senators and congress men, who are all wealthy enough to afford "private insurance" that they endorse so much choose to have no parts of it regarding their own health. Why is that? This is a racist and dumb country i'm sorry to say. A country that elected for Bush 2x that is now reaping the fruits of their evil motivated behavior. And last, ask your self, what side of the debate do you think Jesus or whatever higher power you believe in (if any at all) would be on? That should end the debate right there. Have a good day ;-)

Kevin says

nosf41 says

You have so much faith in Obama and big government.
How about starting slowly, government does not have the required trillions of $ for Obama health care reform proposal.

But we have the required trillions of $ that we will be spending on medicare during the same time period?

The CEO of Whole Foods wrote the following article:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html

The CEO of whole foods is a guy who makes his living selling overpriced bullshit to people with more money than time to spend actually studying the facts about what it is that they’re getting — kind of like the way that we currently handle medical care. Nothing more fitting than taking advice from a guy who’s entire business is based on selling people stuff that they don’t need.

Agreed that opposition to universal health care from whole foods CEO sounds phony. This guy charges 4 times margin on basic groceries. Fools with IVY league education and who just plain got lucky in life go there and think how smart they are eating that organic banana....:-) :-)