patrick.net

we are one country and should take care of our own people’s health

Good point, but should not that be left up to the States? Fire departments, school systems, universities and police departments are all large enterprises run by states with varying degrees of delegation to local governments. Why can't each State set up health care as it sees fit along the same lines?

But maybe individuals just can’t get elected because they can’t come up with the organization and money necessary.

Self fulfilling loop, that. Without politcal parties it would not cost over $1 million to run for a Mayor's job that pays $20k per year. (Newport News, VA).

That is like saying the reason we need easy credit is so people can afford the inflated house prices.

is there a 'BEST OF PATRICK.NET' just like on Craigslist? :-)
If so, this one qualifies

homeowner_for ever_san jose says

“Dear Republicans,
I’m sick of this bullshit.
I’m sick of the way you’ve corrupted the public discourse.
I’m sick of the way you’ve made the populace stupid.
I'm sick of the way you try to destroy the whole concept of government.
I’m sick of your rewriting of history.
I’m sick of your dragging the center ever further to the right.
I’m sick of your casual criminality.
I’m sick of you praising pure evil.
I’m sick of your attempts to tilt the playing field permanently in your favor.
I’m sick of your corporatism.

Oops, I didn't know Obama is an Republican... :P

Who's talking:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/14/obamas-speech-what-will-be-different-next-time/?hp

My next question is, which president will make more damage to U.S.A. after all, Bush or Obama?
. Bush $2.5 Trillion Deficit
. Obama $4.9 Trillion Deficit
. About the same "Evil"
. None of the above, American can blame noone, they all deserve it

Who's More Evil:

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/

My 2 stupid cents.

Some Guy says

How would that work, exactly? Let’s say California has free health care, and Nevada doesn’t. What do you think would happen whenever someone in Nevada gets cancer? We’d have a system where one state has to provide medical treatment for the whole country.

You would have to be a resident of that state to receive it's healthcare. California public schools, police, and fire departments do not serve other states. Do non-California residents get to attend California colleges for the same fee as residents?

HeadSet says

The solution is to eliminate all corporate lobbying

That is entirely a political issue. Until voters are willing to throw out thier reps that are beholden to lobbyists, nothing will happen. Unfortunately, such a concern will not happen until voters see politicians as individuals, not as some collective like “The Republican Party.” Too many want to excuse improprieties from a memeber of the “correct” party, using compensating examples of improprieties from the “wrong” party.

Support citizen-funded elections! http://change-congress.org/

Our president B.S. again:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601086&sid=aDlCSVPjzqbQ
"Government Involvement
Americans can be confident that “the storms of the past two years are beginning to break,” Obama said.
“While there continues to be a need for government involvement to stabilize the financial system, that necessity is waning,” he said, adding that “normalcy cannot lead to complacency.”
At least still have someone willing to tell truth from deep of their heart:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=aSbIT8GZjdKI
“In the U.S. and many other countries, the too-big-to-fail banks have become even bigger,” Stiglitz said in an interview yesterday in Paris. “The problems are worse than they were in 2007 before the crisis.”

The way you’ve made it acceptable to hurl any insult you like at public officials.

So you are sick of conservatives doing what liberals have been doing for decades?

So all of a sudden, it's NOW a bad thing?

IMO, turn about ia fair play.

The main post (LuCifer) was pretty much right on target.

Patrick, maybe you can tell us who got deleted.

Did hanksung23 (or was it hanskung23) get deleted?I'm reading between the lines that he did. I don't know what he wrote, but he had good input on the healthcare thread.

I guess I'm a bit concerned about the whole deletion business. Who's next? Surfer-X wouldn't last a day, and that would be unfortunate. Also, deleting users and all their posts leave big holes in the archives, and one cannot figure out how the discussion went.

I still think one of the main problems we have is the free thread creation. I still believe it worked better when there was a main thread, which could then diverge into various topics of the day as needed. But you know my opinion on that already.

justme says

Patrick, maybe you can tell us who got deleted.

Did hanksung23 (or was it hanskung23) get deleted?

Yup, hanskung23 is gone. And the guy with the Obama evil-clown logo, and OTS. And I think 3 others. Not too many, and they all were definitely impolite.

Bye Bye Impolite, you will be missed. . . . by some.

When we are not polite, we waste our time fighting each other about silly divisive issues rather than fixing the problems by removing the corporate lobbyists and CEOs from Washington DC.

If we really want to fix the Goldman Sachs rip-off of America (and I do believe they have ripped off us taxpayers) then we need to understand the impediments to change. We have enough collective intelligence to do it.

This is still a democracy, and we can make the government answer to the people rather than the corporations.

Let's start by revoking the laws that make corporations into legal people. How can we get that done? Campaign finance reform would probably help.

Patrick said: "Let’s start by revoking the laws that make corporations into legal people."

OK, let's start there, Ill start a new Topic where we can hash this out.

>>Campaign finance reform would probably help.

Sure, campaign reform is great, but the real solution is to have a proper *election* system that provides for real competition between, and accountability of, the political parties.

Competition is the only way to make the parties accountable to the voters. As long as there is a party duo-poly, there is no way we will get anything better than "the lesser of two evils".

If parties need not compete for voters, they will instead compete for money, which is how we got into the current state of political dysfunction in the US.

Impolite says

As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD.

And where will you go? There really isn't anywhere in the world that's much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you'll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions.

Why are you so angry? Have you been personally wronged? Is your situation today substantially different from what it was 1, 5, or 10 years ago? If so, I'm sorry, but if not, why are you so mad? I'm not terribly thrilled with a lot of what goes on in the world, but, well, my life is pretty good, and in this world that's all we can ask for.

The original post is an academic lesson in hipocrasy. Anyone who fails to recognize and admit that most politicians & idealogues are cut from the same cloth are being dishonest.

Corporations are bound by law to make the most money they can for their shareholders. If they started just being nice, their shareholders could sue them.

The law must be bigger than the corporations, and must stop them from making money by grinding up children to sell as dog food, for example. Corporations will scream and cry the the government is interfering in the free market, and they’d be right. A totally unregulated free market would kill us all.

But honestly, I hope it's not impolite to suggest this might be the dumbest thing I've read all week. Really?? How can we take this seriously? Without thoughtful and honest analysis, there is no point other than mindless entertainment.

Hmmm, "dumbest thing I've read" sounds impolite.

Especially because you didn't explain why you think it's dumb.

You think corporations won't do whatever they can to make money?

As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD.

And where will you go? There really isn’t anywhere in the world that’s much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you’ll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions.

Hal Turner, anyone?

I can't help but suspect that some of the angrier, seditious rantings on here might be posted to snare the type of would-be nut jobs these posters pose as.

I could be wrong, in which case, I apologize in advance to any genuine nut jobs.

" And where will you go? There really isn’t anywhere in the world that’s much better than the US, and in those few places where it is you’ll be an immigrant anyway, suffering from work limitations and property ownership restrictions."

Why would you make such a claim? I could name at least 3 other countries that leave the USA in the dust. I don't speculate. I speak frm experience. Just because you were born in the USA does not by definition make it the best in the world.

hi sevan : Can you name them ...is switzerland one of them ?
I agree with you that there is a tendency in US to name everything best in US as best in World...most international travelers find that annoying as they have real life experiences all over the world.
I consider US very strong in individual Freedom and money making..apart from that everything else is not that great compared to some of the other countries ( social fabric , pace of life, health , obesity, life style, culture..etc)

sevans says

Why would you make such a claim? I could name at least 3 other countries that leave the USA in the dust. I don’t speculate. I speak frm experience. Just because you were born in the USA does not by definition make it the best in the world.

Read that again, friend. There are plenty of places that are as good or better than the US (though none that are really meaningfully "better" -- mostly just different). The problem is that if you relocated to any of those countries you would have a hard time finding work and possibly be unable to own property.

Of course, I also highly doubt that the people ranting about government spending would be all that happy in other countries that are actually nice places to live :)

homeowner_for ever_san jose says

hi sevan : Can you name them …is switzerland one of them ?

Absolutely not -- that is, not to say that it's worse than the US, but as a non-citizen, your rights in switzerland are severely restricted. Unless you already have an employer willing to hire you there, you'll have a hell of a time getting work permits, and owning property is out of the question.

The story is the same in just about every other country that you would want to live in.

If those countries relaxed their work eligibility / ownership rights, I'd consider leaving the US.

I like to say. Yes, perhaps E=mc2, but Science=FFF (Full of Fallacious Facts).

Things are what they are. Our understanding of those things is according to our capacity to interpret and then understand them. Unfortunately that capacity is ever changing and evolving as our basis of understanding is proven and thus disproven.

We scientists know the more we learn about this universe, the more clueless we thus become on the primeval origins and complex workings within it. The ol' "The more I learn, the more I know that which I do not know."

We are severely limited by our 5 senses. No one has ever seen an atom. The atom itself and all of it's related structural properties have not been actually observed by science. The atom is a theoretical deduction. Nothing more, nothing less. Much of science is conducted in this manner. Science is enormously comprised, to this modern day, by THEORIES, still quite unproven, and often everchanging. With many a theory heavily relying on another. With any one of the underlying theories disproven, serious doubt is cast upon subsequently reliant propositions. For example, see: red shift theories in relation to the expanding universe theory. (IE big bang theorists) and the linear velocity-distance relations.

Science is more divided and muddled these days than at any time in recent history. I laugh at those people that pretend to know that "science is in full agreement" in this or that.. Science hardly, completely agrees on anything. It's comprised of numerous ideas and opinions.

Einstein actually theorized that our universe was temporally homogeneous, static, surely not expanding.

To all you posters who wake each morning with the errant belief that there are better places to live than the United States:

You are clearly 28 years old and perhaps still living in "your mama basement". Have you ever left the state?

I've lived in and traveled to almost every country in the world. I have yet to find or credibly hear of ANY place that is even remotely as good a place to be, than the United States.

The United States is still the best. You're still here!

Agreed. We have a beautiful country, where people can say pretty much whatever they want. They can act like asses without being arrested, receive minimal healthcare in the ER, live however they want... And they can be racists with the same protections as the rest of us... People in our prisons have a better lifestyle than do many citizens of third world countries.

But there are other countries that have qualities we could emulate, such as a viable healthcare system. Or we could create a better system on our own (not the corporate-pocket-lining crap, either). Just because we're great, doesn't mean that we couldn't be greater.

Impolite says:
"And I’m truly SURPRISED that Patrick.et now requires CIVILITY, POLITENESS and general NICENESS from those (millions?) of us who are FED-UP, FURIOUS and BOILING HOT over the way we’re being RAILROADED, RIPPED-OFF and RAPED by Goldman Sachs/WashingtonDC. It’s kinda like asking someone who’s about to be executed by firing squad to SMILE for the picture."
"As far as I’M concerned, this country is DEAD. I’ll NEVER waste my time or breath again in any stupid opinion forum as long as I live. From now on all my efforts will be directed to EMIGRATING from this shithole known as the United States of America LAND OF THE FRAUD."
----------------------------------------
Someone needs to refill the Prozac. If you can afford it, that is.

The USA is a very large country. Each area has a distinctly different flavor.

Like the urban life in a city that does not sleep, but do not mind a small living quarters on a busy sreet and no parking? Try New York City.

Like to retire to an inexpensive waterfront lot and fish all day? Try ocean or lakefront living in rural Virginia.

Like a 3,000 sqft home with a 3 car garage on a 1/2 acre lot, affordable on a middle class income? Try a Texas or Carolina suburb.

Want to live where everyone has a gun, counties don't even have mandantory electrical inspections, highways have no speed limits, and very few property restrictions, try Montana.

So you see, if you are fed up with for example, with being the equivilant of a fluff girl or Gaston de Pee in a law office somewhere, you can pull up stakes and change lifestyles rather easily.

This is

Hmmm, “dumbest thing I’ve read” sounds impolite.
Especially because you didn’t explain why you think it’s dumb.
You think corporations won’t do whatever they can to make money?

I didn't think it was necessary for competent individuals to recognize what is self evident. But it's all too easy if I must.

Corporations are bound by law to make the most money they can for their shareholders. If they started just being nice, their shareholders could sue them.

Haven't you ever heard of corporations giving to community projects or supporting (funding) philanthropical institutions? There are literally thousands of examples. Are they typically sued for these activities? I will expect that you will say that they do this for PR purposes - to maximize profits. But isn't this the same as individual action where we ultimately do everything for selfish reasons? At somepoint you have to call goodwill goodwill, even if it is self-serving at the same time. Otherwise we fall into a neverending cynicysm where all matter of kindness, politeness, is a lie.

Essentially a corporation is a collection of individuals and will act only as ethically/morally as the individuals who influence it. In other words, if a corporation does something amoral, it's because SOMEONE did something amoral. ... which brings me to the second point.

The law must be bigger than the corporations, and must stop them from making money by grinding up children to sell as dog food, for example. Corporations will scream and cry the the government is interfering in the free market, and they’d be right. A totally unregulated free market would kill us all.

Please cite where a corporation has screamed and cried how it's unfair that they haven't been allowed to grind children into dogfood and I will concede. This statement implicitly assumes that you, as a shareholder, worker, or corporate executive, along with everyone else in the corporation and all the dog-food consumers, have no problem with grinding up children for dogfood. Further, it is only the Government, source of all moral goodness, that would prevent it. That is why that statement lacks any type of intelligence, to be more POLITE.

I believe the Republican Party is teetering on the brink of fracture right now. They have failed to recognize the large population segments they have alienated & disaffected, and simply cranked up the volume from the fringes and become more shrill.

However I don't think they are the DANGER in past or present that is so often ascribed. This is precisely the nature of party politics. When any party becomes sufficiently polarized & out of touch, it finds it is losing seats in office. Which is precisely what happened lately.

No need to worry about this further.

As to those for whom Corporations are equal citizens, I ask you to compare the MORALITY & LAW standards currently imposed on Corporations versus individuals as regards bankruptcy. As individuals we are told MORALLY we must pay all our bills no matter what. As individuals post 2005 LEGALLY there avenues for bankruptcy were reduced. On the other hand when a corporation wants to declare bankruptcy to "reorganize" hey no problem here's the express lane how can we help you..... A double-standard is plainly evident and it's amazing people deny that corporations have ascended to a plane where their rights EXCEED those of citizens. It baffles me this is not under public debate. I'm baffled that corporate "personhood" fiction has morphed into a near-religion.

Vicente says

On the other hand when a corporation wants to declare bankruptcy to “reorganize” hey no problem here’s the express lane how can we help you…..

That is because when a corporation goes out of business lots of people lose jobs. The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line.

For individuals, most bankruptcies (other than medical) are parachutes from an overspending lifestyle.

However, I would like to see any corporation that files for bankruptcy be required to implement serious executive pay caps. Unlikely though, since even the bailed out banks are now allowed to pay million dollar bonuses.

Vicente says

I believe the Republican Party is teetering on the brink of fracture right now. They have failed to recognize the large population segments they have alienated & disaffected, and simply cranked up the volume from the fringes and become more shrill.

That is a wonderful slogan, "Republicans: The party of shrill fringes."

What exactly does this have to do with 'Housing Crash Forum'? Would you care to explain?

The fact of life is that WE-YOU-I are the ones responsible for this life we have. If you want to play the victim-blame game, go right ahead. And then, as DR. Phil would say, “How’s that working out for you-lol.

The sooner we take R E S P O N S I B I l I T Y, the sooner things will change. And yes, WE do create our own reality.

From KLNR

The Little Guy

HeadSet says

That is because when a corporation goes out of business lots of people lose jobs. The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line.

Everyone has a RATIONALIZATION. Please explain in supposedly egalitarian society all created equal, but now corporations outrank citizens? Makes no sense. Corporation "reorganizes" by defaulting on debts and obligations. For corporation "just business". You just characterized personal bankruptcy as OVERSPENDING= moral issue = deserve to suffer. Got news for you many bakruptcies due to MEDICAL bills.

masayako says

Right on, dude.

My sentiments exactly.....

Vicente says

You just characterized personal bankruptcy as OVERSPENDING= moral issue = deserve to suffer. Got news for you many bakruptcies due to MEDICAL bills.

Read my post carefully. I specifically said:

For individuals, most bankruptcies (other than medical) are parachutes from an overspending lifestyle.

Note the "other than medical." And yes, other than medical, I would say most personal bankruptcies are parachutes from overspending.

HeadSet says

And yes, other than medical, I would say most personal bankruptcies are parachutes from overspending.

Why do you not apply the same standard to corporations?

If they are in bankruptcy it must be because they were overspending eh?

Therefore a "means test" and asset liquidation to allow the capital to flow back into national usage instead of being tied up in a demonstrably INEFFICIENT & OVERSPENDING company would be best resolution. That's capitalism and it should be EVENLY APPLIED to corporations as to citizens.

The entire idea of corporate "personhood" was to expand their protections & rights. However with protections & rights should come the same PRICE paid by citizens. Namely you screw up badly as a person, well there are consequences. That was the entire presumption in Bankruptcy Act of 2005 revisions. Namely credit card companies were peeved people might get off the hook on debts through bankruptcy so wanted to make it harder from them to "escape". My argument is SAME standards should always be applied to both. We have built a nearly risk-free environment now for large corporations. Everything is oriented around protecting and nurturing them, and citizens are increasingly left hanging out in the wind.

Vicente says

If they are in bankruptcy it must be because they were overspending eh?

Correct. That or other misguided practices, such as introducing an electric car that tops at 35mph.

Therefore a “means test” and asset liquidation to allow the capital to flow back into national usage instead of being tied up in a demonstrably INEFFICIENT & OVERSPENDING company would be best resolution. That’s capitalism and it should be EVENLY APPLIED to corporations as to citizens.

Correct again.

What makes you think I am in favor of corporations weaseling out? Notice I wrote The polticians would rather a company restructure than throw its workers into the unemployment line. Notice I said "politicians." If it were up to me, the company would have to restructure under the courts with no special treatment. If the corporation is too far gone for that, they close. It is the politcian that wants the special treatment, especially if it means job losses for constituents and campaign contributions from the corporation.

We have built a nearly risk-free environment now for large corporations.

Correct, except that I would say certain favored corporations. I presume you will agree that no bailouts should have been made to either bank or auto company. If those institutions were unable to survive after a restructuring, they should cease to exist.

Headset,

Actually I am in favor of some middle-ground where the courts decide the path a bankruptcy will take. I'm not that harsh about it. My argument is about uneven application of the principle currently.

I believe I misunderstood your argument and apologize for mischaracterizing.

Vicente says

I believe I misunderstood your argument and apologize for mischaracterizing.

That's OK, I do not write so well.

BobK says

Why worship the Democratic party?
Both parties are corrupt.
They both only nominate people who are scumbags to the positions. It is better to have the position sit empty rather have a scumbag in the seat.

So you think Anarchy is better than some corruption?

Every government has corruption in it -- you won't eliminate it. What you can do is try to be sure that what corruption you do have is naturally checked.