patrick.net

I think morality is innate. You just know when you're being wrong, and evil. There are many ways to put it, such as "do unto others and you would have them to unto you" (Christian) and "do not unto others that which is hateful to you" (Jewish).

I think the Buddhists understand it all the best. Namely, when you're making a strict separation between yourself and others, you're on the wrong path. At some point you understand that other people ARE you in every important way, and then it all becomes clear.

wcalleallegre says

Morality is based on religious views - whether atheism, humanism, Judeo-Christian, pantheism, new age, etc.

That is absolutely absurd. Morality may be based on religious views, but most morality is secular in nature. This is why we don't kill, rape, or steal.

I'm not religious, and I still have a strong moral code that I adhere to and teach to my children, and it only really has one point: do not harm anyone that does not deserve to be harmed.

I don't adhere to this because I'm worried about being punished after I die or because I believe in some sort of cosmic retribution, but rather I do so because I desire to live in harmony with the world around me.

dan-o says

bwen said:
As a physician, I can tell you that the government has not been successful in its role of quality care at a good price; the private companies have done it better.
This is a baseless assertion, not supported by facts. I myself am also a physician, and am embarassed by bwen’s lack of evidence in his assertion. It reflects poorly on our profession. Also, his assertion that VA and other federal systems deliver poor care is way off the mark; VA quality systems lead the nation, and have been adopted by many high-functioning private systems (Mayo Clinic, UCSF, Cedar-Sinai). Our public systems work, and deliver better outcomes than private systems to a greater number of people. Public systems do not deliver dividends to private sector specialists who demand above-average fees for their services, this is why some physicians are upset; physicans who are motivated towards the public’s health are generally in support of the current reforms.

I've been a social worker for many years, both public & private agencies. I agree with dan-o on. It seems to me that many physicians are insulated from those people who are on the bottom rung. If a patient doesn't have insurance, he may never make it to the MD's office. If the physician doesn't accept hospital patients on rotation, they may never be affected by the uninsured/poorest of the poor.

Physicians have so many expenses and it irritates me when people trash 'em. Starting with office rental, stocking of supplies, salaries & employment related expenses of office staff, billing/collections-related expenses, insurance write-offs, denials & appeals, ongoing education, malpractice insurance, student loans, auto expenses... They're often on-call 24/7, are paged/called/texted all day & night... That they draw larger salaries than many other professions is mistaken as living the good life. Doctor's spouses & families are often frustrated when they aren't able to spend peaceful holidays, attend kid's sporting events, etc without interruption. So I don't begrudge them wanting to be paid; I do have a problem with insurance companies that profit handsomely by denying benefits and setting prices. If an MD performs a procedure he/she deems necessary, that doesn't ensure payment.

So they often don't see the patients that enter the E.R. and can't afford to pay. They often aren't the ones telling patients that there's no program available to help out, and they often don't realize that the medications prescribed won't be filled. There are some good qualities in both public & private systems, but the private ones are profit-based and looking for every reason to deny benefits. It truly sucks, and many physicians have been able to insulate themselves from those patients they'll never have to treat for free (or even pay out of pocket for some costs).

This has nothing to do with Glenn Beck, other than that many people believe the propaganda of big insurance and hospital corporations that claim to provide compassionat care, making money hand over fist at the expense of others. Glenn Beck makes millions, as does his network, while the "grass roots" organizations they enrage with innuendo donate from their meager funds to further line his pockets. People drink his kool-aid.

Glenn Beck needs to publicly apologize for not having denied this horrific crime. He's been strangely silent on this issue, even tho he's demonstrated a lack of ability to remain silent many other times. He needs to cry for those poor young girls who may or may not have been his victims, and start a "grass-roots" movement to condemn all killers of young girls everywhere.
Meanwhile, George, you haven't called me yet... Have you lost my number?

elliemae says

If he didn’t rape & murder a young girl in 1990, why hasn’t he denied it yet? Why does he choose to remain silent on the issue? What’s he hiding? He needs to come clean on the issue.
Either that or hope that some songbird nymph is upstaged by a talentless piece of shit on national teevee and take away the attention from his purported crimes…

I guess in parody we could add the evil Glenn Beck
to this list of Obamas Friends....

Rashid Khalidi (antisemitic)
Antoin "Tony" Rezko (real estate crook)
William "Bill" Ayers (terrorist)
Rev. Jeremiah Wright (anti American racist)
Michelle Obama (anti American racist)
ACORN (voter fraud) (housing market collapse)
Raila Odinga (dictator)
Michael Pfleger (anti American racist)
Franklin Raines (Fannie Mae under Clinton)
Bernadine Dorn (terrorist)
Jesse Jackson jr. (racist and race baiting)
Jesse Jackson (racist and race baiting)
Al Sharpton (race baiting )
Van Jones (communist and racist)
Emmanuel Rahm (laundry expert)
Jimmy Carter (race baiting)
Hugo Chavez (anti American)
Robert Gibbs (apologist and spin doctor)
Nancy Pelosi (Darth Vader's twin sister)
Glenn Beck (Parodist subject)

elliemae says

This has nothing to do with Glenn Beck

Tell that to the physicians who tried desperately to revive the young girl that he raped and murdered in 1990.

Kevin says

elliemae says

This has nothing to do with Glenn Beck

Tell that to the physicians who tried desperately to revive the young girl that he raped and murdered in 1990.

:) my bad...

In response to Patrick: "I think morality is innate. You just know when you’re being wrong, and evil. There are many ways to put it, such as “do unto others and you would have them to unto you” (Christian) and “do not unto others that which is hateful to you” (Jewish)."

I think that morality is not entirely innate. If you put a person in the right (or horribly wrong) environment, you can create a sociopath. Read B.F. Skinner's research. It's the classic nature versus nurture argument. I take the view that morality is a combination of environment and innate genetics. I think it also has to do with learning to feel properly. Our emotions serve a purpose.

I'm a religious man (Eastern Orthodox) so I have my own religious convictions. One does not need to be religious to be moral. Although being religious I think can certainly steer one in the right direction. Learning virtue from vice, and pro-social behavior takes learning and examination of one's motives with perhaps some reflection. Buddhism, Christianity, Judaism, they're at the core very pro-social and encourage us to take others interests into account and not just our own.

In response to wcalleallegre:

Moral perversion and corruption has been with us since the beginning of time. From the time of the Ancient Greeks, through the Roman Empire, to today. I think that many Americans who grew up during the 1950's lived through an idealized, innocent, and very ignorant time that filtered humanity's true potential for good and evil. But I agree with you, the Christian sowing and reaping principle is a good tool of analysis. If you sow papers of fraud, you reap houses of defaults!

Erickk Hoogenbaum says

I think that many Americans who grew up during the 1950’s lived through an idealized, innocent, and very ignorant time that filtered humanity’s true potential for good and evil

On TV, maybe. Even if you ignore the matters of racial segregation, the cold war backdrop was a great illustration of the potential for evil in the world.

'Hey kids, everything is A-OK. Now lets duck and cover!'

The 1950's were not sweetness and light. Racial killings in the south, Korean war, Mccarthyism, red scare, cold war, hydrogen bomb, etc.. There were some pretty ugly chapters of American history written in the 1950's. Joe Mccarthy makes the Glenn Becks of today look like pikers in terms of smear tactics. It is interesting to see revisionist history being written about Joe Mccarthy by a number of conservative hard liners. Ann Coulter actually wrote a book about it. Now that's a ringing endorsement! I wasn't even aware that Coulter could read and write.

I don't think she can.

Kevin: "The 1950’s were not sweetness and light. Racial killings in the south, Korean war, Mccarthyism, red scare, cold war, hydrogen bomb, etc.."

This is true, and you're right. I had in mind the media and education though. Compare it to now.

First, to say that "morality is innate" within a thread created to have people visit a crass web site joking about a man raping and murdering a young girl in itself is amoral.

Erickk Hoogenbaum:

Yes the "morality is innate" statement doesn't hold up to academic scrutiny. Most morality is dependent on what you have been raised to believe. If morality was innate you would see a consistent moral code through all human cultures regardless of time, societies, religions, locations, etc. Many of the things western civilization finds repugnant such as rape, child prostitution, slavery, genocide are not seen as amoral in many parts of the world even today as well as much of our own history. Not because they are/were different human beings but, because these things were taught to be acceptable.

I've often wondered about the 50's. I think the generation that was brought up in the depression and fought WW2 tried to shield their children from what they had faced. I believe many people in America circa 2009 are very innocent or, more properly naive. We may be more exposed to sex, violence, and apathy today but, are innocence in the belief that nothing bad will happen. In the 50's there were still plenty of people that had lived through a depression and a serious war where the survival of their way of life was genuinely in jeopardy. Today, many people think these things can never happen again and increasingly look to government for answers.

Renaim say:
"First, to say that “morality is innate” within a thread created to have people visit a crass web site joking about a man raping and murdering a young girl in itself is amoral."

The web site doesn't joke about anyone raping & murdering a young girl. That's not funny. It does, however, joke about the rumor that a high profile pseudo-celebrity who refuses to address the rumors that circulate the interweb about whether or not he perpetrated crimes upon young girls in the 1990's. Not just one girl...

nosf41: "as an aside though I think as a point of order you should have provided some references to when Glen made this comment."

Are you frigging serious? This was huge news. All you have to do is go to youtube and search for "beck obama racist"

He's been caught in lies too. Like his ominous accusation that Cash for Clunkers was a government plot to take over your computer (youtube search: beck cash for clunkers). Never mind that what he was suggesting is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE, though his computer "expert" pretends it is. He pretends that he can't access the page he wants to show because the system is too busy. We'll turns out he was lying. It was because he was not a DEALER and so did not have a dealer account.

And how about his taking up the cause of FEMA camp conspiracy theorists? He quickly backed off that one, but the just the fact he's started asking questions in his typical way ("I'm not saying it's true, but I can't debuk them!") shows the man has no scruples. Youtube search: beck fema camp backflip.

This guy throws out unsupportable nonsense all the time.

And yeah, why exactly has he not answered accusatoins that he raped and killed a girl in the 90's?

MarkInSF says

nosf41: “as an aside though I think as a point of order you should have provided some references to when Glen made this comment.”

Are you frigging serious? This was huge news. All you have to do is go to youtube and search for “beck obama racist”
He’s been caught in lies too. Like his ominous accusation that Cash for Clunkers was a government plot to take over your computer (youtube search: beck cash for clunkers). Never mind that what he was suggesting is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE, though his computer “expert” pretends it is. He pretends that he can’t access the page he wants to show because the system is too busy. We’ll turns out he was lying. It was because he was not a DEALER and so did not have a dealer account.
And how about his taking up the cause of FEMA camp conspiracy theorists? He quickly backed off that one, but the just the fact he’s started asking questions in his typical way (”I’m not saying it’s true, but I can’t debuk them!”) shows the man has no scruples. Youtube search: beck fema camp backflip.
This guy throws out unsupportable nonsense all the time.
And yeah, why exactly has he not answered accusatoins that he raped and killed a girl in the 90’s?

Could you double check the source of that quote? I do not remember posting anything like that.

nosf41 says

MarkInSF says

nosf41: “as an aside though I think as a point of order you should have provided some references to when Glen made this comment.”
Are you frigging serious? This was huge news. All you have to do is go to youtube and search for “beck obama racist”

He’s been caught in lies too. Like his ominous accusation that Cash for Clunkers was a government plot to take over your computer (youtube search: beck cash for clunkers). Never mind that what he was suggesting is NOT EVEN POSSIBLE, though his computer “expert” pretends it is. He pretends that he can’t access the page he wants to show because the system is too busy. We’ll turns out he was lying. It was because he was not a DEALER and so did not have a dealer account.

And how about his taking up the cause of FEMA camp conspiracy theorists? He quickly backed off that one, but the just the fact he’s started asking questions in his typical way (”I’m not saying it’s true, but I can’t debuk them!”) shows the man has no scruples. Youtube search: beck fema camp backflip.

This guy throws out unsupportable nonsense all the time.

And yeah, why exactly has he not answered accusatoins that he raped and killed a girl in the 90’s?

Could you double check the source of that quote? I do not remember posting anything like that.

Sorry wrong poster. Didn't know how to use the blockquote until now.

Really, the simplest and best solution is to outlaw healthcare.

Anyone who disagrees with me is Ageist, Classist, Racist, Sexist, Homophobic, Speciesist, Xenophobic, and suffers from Religious intolerance and Reverse discrimination.

I, like, totally agree. If only we'd outlaw'ed healthcare, Glenn Beck may not have been healthy enough to perpetrate crimes upon poor virginal children in 1990.

I haven't been reading many of the MISC threads at all, but I saw a reference to this thread today and thought I would read it.

I think the parody seen here is absolutely priceless. Brilliant is the word. It shows exactly how Glen Beck and some of (I did not say ALL) tea-party people operate.

Guilty by false accusation until you prove yourself innocent. Very dangerous, and very wrong.

SATIRE! Oh Mr. Beck never uses that does he? Oh wait I've heard entire monologues dripping with sarcasm, satire, cynicism so thick you'd expect it was written by an 8-year old. The bit that Patrick linked is written in Beck style to turn the tables on him.

Mr. Beck frequently employs the tactic of vague accusations and insinuations, but then refuses to fully back and source his claims, thus avoiding responsibility for it. A big tell is how many times he says "I'm not saying that,,,,," or "I'm just saying" to distance himself from what he just said. You don't use that phrase very frequently if you have provable allegations and are telling the simple unvarnished truth. You use it when you are spinning a web of deceit and half-truths and innuendo.

E.g. one interview among numerous examples:

Beck: (Obama is) "a guy who has a deep-seated hatred for white people or the white culture. I don't know what it is..."

When Fox's Brian Kilmeadeon pointed out that many people in Obama's administration are white, so "you can't say he doesn't like white people," Beck pressed on. "I'm not saying he doesn't like white people, I'm saying he has a problem," Beck said. "This guy is, I believe, a racist."

Now I'M NOT SAYING that Glenn Beck murdered a girl in 1990, or indeed is part of the conspiracy to hide Obama's true birth origins, but isn't it suspicious how he denies it? Until we have a REAL investigation, with PROOF BEYOND ANY DOUBT that he did not KILL A GIRL IN 1990 then we should keep asking questions shouldn't we?

Updated Linkage:

Did Glenn Beck Rape and Murder a Girl in 1990?

justme says

Guilty by false accusation until you prove yourself innocent. Very dangerous, and very wrong.

yea .. like Dan Rather and the fabricated AWOL Bush fictional story? Great point.

Screwing with Glen Beck, is like lighting a bag of shit on a Geezers porch, then ringing the door bell and run.

It's pointless.

I do find Irony, in much of what the Liberals are saying on this board, in defense of what was posted in that Blog, as well as for what they take offense to Glen for saying or "Projecting". Perhaps Patrick points this out so eloquently, because This administration are Masters at it.

They Project stupidity on the other half they don't agree with, then act on their proxy.