patrick.net

agreed again.

My sister & I have an ongoing argument about the bible. She thinks that, somehow, someway, it has been translated over the years with no mis-spellings, no mistakes, no transpositions, etc.

I think that the original transcript could have been written by a guy named Bob who was addicted to soft drinks, who said, "Let there be Sprite..." And it was later changed to "let us drink lite" and then someone said let there be lite... And so on.

Ya, I'm about to be real popular here.

elliemae says

My sister & I have an ongoing argument about the bible. She thinks that, somehow, someway, it has been translated over the years with no mis-spellings, no mistakes, no transpositions, etc.
I think that the original transcript could have been written by a guy named Bob who was addicted to soft drinks, who said, “Let there be Sprite…” And it was later changed to “let us drink lite” and then someone said let there be lite… And so on.
Ya, I’m about to be real popular here.

That big butt is what makes you popular.

There has been a lot of hate directed at Muslims like myself, no tolerance has been shown to my responses and requests for those that follow religion blindly to take a look in the mirror. Yes, Mohammed was a military leader and NO he was not profit. However, when I state that Jesus was not profit I get extremely emotional responses. Someone even called Mohammed a loon to which I replied that Jesus was a mystery god with mystical powers that are yet to be seen. I dont worship Islam blindly, know the history and base my beliefs on reality knowing the history.....but my experiences have been that most cannot do that. Regardless of whether you are Christian, Jewish, Muslim...there is no such thing as a mystery god or profit that posesses magical powers.

If any of these so-called prophets (Jesus, Abraham, Mary, Mohammed) possessed magical powers why would he sit by and watch my people hang in the trees while onlookers attempted to figure out what the strange fruit was?

elllie,

I know many people like your sister. You have to admire their faith. However even if it were true and there is a Bible that is free of mistakes and mistranslations, how would we know which one is "the one?"

It seems to me that the Bible as the most widely read and sold book in the history of the world is subject to counterfeiting and manipulation for profit just like about everything else in the world. Have you ever noticed how most Bible versions are copyrighted? The were translated for profit (now I am not saying profit is wrong, only that Jesus didn't say to go make money from all nations. He said to make disciples not money.). That doesn't mean there is no truth in the Bible or that any particular version is not useful, but copyrighting "God's word" seems wrong to me. If it has a copyright on it I would have a hard time believing God wrote it that way. Furthermore the King James Bible is very elegantly translated and was not copyrighted, but it was commissioned by King James and for some reason I find it hard to believe the King of England is an authority on God's word.

Don't get me wrong, I don't believe Bob wrote the Bible. It is too powerful, pertinent and full of wisdom to be written by humans. However it is not beyond humans to mistranslate, and change the meaning of it for their own profit. Religion is just a scam and a distraction from true spirituality and relationship with God.

staynumz says

Gee, I dont know why there would be any hate directed at muslims.
Haha, the crusades. Gotta go back pretty far to pull that one out.

..once again stupidity veers its ugly head. Gee, I wonder why Christians think they are the only people that belong to live in this world and can force others to follow Jesus as blindly as they do. Gee, I wonder why Christians brought disease to the Americas and killed off all native peoples. Gee, I wonder why Christians tried to do the same in middle Africa and got their asses handed to them in the form of Malaria. Gee, the United States refuses to leave Iraq, Afghanistan...I wonder if it is for the oil resources. See, you really dont have to go back far because America is a Christian nation, Christians are still standing by watching as my people hang from the trees wondering what that strange fruit is. Continue with your witty remarks young man, I have come prepared with facts and knowledge that your simple antics wont understand without going back to school.

There are a lot of examples of how Christians use evil against humanity, especially when they are facing people of color....the primary reason I would never worship your mystery god is because he is used to convince the 85% that being deaf, dumb and blind is OK.

I love your stupidity, it compliments your hair color.

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian IS a Christian. The United States is not a Christian nation.

Matthew7: 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

"The big difference is that the crusaders were failing as Christians when they did that."

This is your opinion of what correct Christianity is. Other people have different opinions, for example the bible says Eph. 5:23, "husband is head of the wife". Some Christians take that literally and the man makes all of the decisions. Other Christians don't. Correct religion is a matter of opinion and is always changing. How many American Christians thought that interracial marriage was against their religion in 1800? How many do today? Did GOD change the bible in the past 200 years? Or did opinions change?

2ndClassCitizen says

Not everyone who claims to be a Christian IS a Christian. The United States is not a Christian nation.
Matthew7: 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

You make a good point. Although I worship Islam I do not follow the stupidity that Patrick noted on his other posts where he cited that Islam calls for the death of all other religions. I do not feel as if Christians or members of other religions are bad people and I definitely dont believe that there is only one god, who is named Allah, Jesus, etc. I believe in GOD, whomever he or she may be....Islam is only the culture that I choose to worship with.

There are a lot of good people out here that dont get involved with the my religion is better than yours game, those are the true Christians and Muslims...they worship together and realize they are praying to the same god but under different names.

I just finished a book called "The Tenacity of Unreasonable Belief":
http://www.amazon.com/Tenacity-Unreasonable-Beliefs-Fundamentalism-Truth/dp/0195188268

It's by an Orthodox Jew who decided that God literally handing the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai was frankly not reasonable. And he goes into why Christianity and Islam are similarly not reasonable, and all the defense mechanisms people use to defend belief in spite of reason.

But in the end, he likes the community he belongs to, like Clarence 13X does, so he continues to live like an Orthodox Jew even though he tells the other members of his congregation that he doesn't believe the dogma.

fredMG says

This is your opinion of what correct Christianity is. Other people have different opinions, for example the bible says Eph. 5:23, “husband is head of the wife”.

OK, Christianity is kind of patriarchal. But nowhere in anything Jesus or the apostles did or said is there anything suggesting the use of violence against non-believers.

Islam is very different that way. Violence against non-believers is commanded by Islam.

Clarence "Strange Fruit" was a song by Billie Holiday to illicit feelings of sympathy from her mostly White audience. A very smart move, and it worked wonders for the cause.

No Americans have been Lynched in over 60 years now, not with political impunity anyway.

Why so many references in recent days? Are you being oppressed, are the Skin Heads giving you problems? If they are just say the word, we'll come down on them with a hurt stick, stand beside you to beat them back.

You've got more allies than you realize, if you'll just stop looking for the boogieman. Not to diminish the history. You sound old enough to have seen a lot, and I'm not trying to forget, nor do I wish you forget.

I only ask that you keep perspective who they were then, and who we are now.
I'm not towing the line for those bastards of yesteryear, so don't ask me to.

What can I do for you today? As I refuse to apologize for White trash idiots over 50 years ago.

Tenouncetrout says

Clarence “Strange Fruit” was a song by Billie Holiday to illicit feelings of sympathy from her mostly White audience. A very smart move, and it worked wonders for the cause.
No Americans have been Lynched in over 60 years now, not with political impunity anyway.
Why so many references in recent days? Are you being oppressed, are the Skin Heads giving you problems? If they are just say the word, we’ll come down on them with a hurt stick, stand beside you to beat them back.
You’ve got more allies than you realize, if you’ll just stop looking for the boogieman. Not to diminish the history. You sound old enough to have seen a lot, and I’m not trying to forget, nor do I wish you forget.
I only ask that you keep perspective who they were then, and who we are now.
I’m not towing the line for those bastards of yesteryear, so don’t ask me to.
What can I do for you today? As I refuse to apologize for White trash idiots over 50 years ago.

I never asked anyone for sympathy, empathy or compassion on this thread. I asked the question how can I blindly believe in religious scripture, the mysterry god called Jesus, Mohammed and used the phrase "strange fruit" as an example of how there is not such thing as a magical wizard who will come to our rescue. I was born in 1925...the only thing you can do is be fair in your hiring practices, encourage others to educate themselves, and be kind to one another as it sounds like you already have been.

There are plenty of examples of lmodern day lynchings:

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/73-year-old-black-man-shot-and-killed-police-homer-la

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Byrd_Jr.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPuM_XAo2BE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo

Instead of haning by a rope, we are being shot dead. It is now up to the justice system to prevent these few remote incidents with tougher penalties on the perpetuators...LAPD, NYPD, LPD.

I have been doing business with whites and other cultures for 50 years so there is no need to lecture me on the victim mentality.

I just finished a book called “The Tenacity of Unreasonable Belief”:
http://www.amazon.com/Tenacity-Unreasonable-Beliefs-Fundamentalism-Truth/dp/0195188268
It’s by an Orthodox Jew who decided that God literally handing the Torah to Moses on Mount Sinai was frankly not reasonable. And he goes into why Christianity and Islam are similarly not reasonable, and all the defense mechanisms people use to defend belief in spite of reason.
But in the end, he likes the community he belongs to, like Clarence 13X does, so he continues to live like an Orthodox Jew even though he tells the other members of his congregation that he doesn’t believe the dogma.

I will pick that book up, sounds like a smart guy. If you like basketball then play basketball, if you like football then play that sport.

...But dont go around calling the baseball players a bunch of panzies.

Whites are only "Victims" of being robbed, shot, stabbed, raped, mobbed, stoned, and sodomized, when we are on the receiving end. It's just a common run of the mill crime, and have yet to hear of one case of it being called a "Hate crime" even if the perps exclaimed "Cracker!!!" while in the act.

Now I wonder why that is?

Tenouncetrout says

Whites are only “Victims” of being robbed, shot, stabbed, raped, mobbed, stoned, and sodomized, when we are on the receiving end. It’s just a common run of the mill crime, and have yet to hear of one case of it being called a “Hate crime” even if the perps exclaimed “Cracker!!!” while in the act.
Now I wonder why that is?

I would have to assume this is because whites have a history of oppression of peoples of color throughout the past 4 centuries. You cannot oppress someone for 400 years then all of a sudden call yourself the victim...that is silly. People of color all over the world were not permitted to participate in capitalistic activities and now all of a sudden because we have that opportunity you expect to dismiss 400 years of oppression.

You cannot kick a man until his legs are broken and then expect him to simply get up and walk. He will need time to rehabilitate himself to a point where he can crawl, then limp and eventually he will begin walking again. This same philosophy applies to oppressed people all over the world, not just blacks in America.

Keep your witty comments, they smell of stupidity, show no remorse and a lack of compassion.

I have no remorse for the losers of a war that were made slaves instead of killed in battle. That is where the black slave sellers of Africa got the slaves they sold to slave traders ... they gathered them up like bounty. Another silly racist. Blacks made slaves out of blacks. Go get 'em.

Bap33 says

I have no remorse for the losers of a war that were made slaves instead of killed in battle. That is where the black slave sellers of Africa got the slaves they sold to slave traders … they gathered them up like bounty. Another silly racist. Blacks made slaves out of blacks. Go get ‘em.

I have studied some of your other comments along with the statement made above, they seem to resonate with views similarly upheld by Limbaugh, Buchanan, and other so called conservatives who fail to show empathy for the plight of blacks in America. I especially like the “crack addicted single mother of 5 (each with a different daddy) that is a 6th generations-removed slave” comment you made in a earlier post. Your really winning the black vote with that one.

Regardless of how you feel, I am remorseful for any acts of genocide performed on people all over the world. Dont assume I dont hold West Africans accountable for their part in the slave trade. You have no remorse because you have lost your humanity. When we black Muslims spoke of the white devil race in the 1960's it was comments like these and actions taken by your close relatives that led us to believe that all whites were devils. Even though this was 40 years ago, we are only 1 economic downturn away from returning to that point in time...a time where people with views similar to yours acted out in bitterness, hatred and stupidity against my people for taking your jobs. Now, conservatives are acting out against Mexicans and Arab Muslims with the same level of ferocity that you did during the early 1900s. Instead of embracing Mexicans, Muslims and blacks you make statements that turn them away, allowing your fear to dictate your moral character. It is ok to be remorseful, and to work towards complete integration of black people into our country.

You seem to have let your stupidity strip you of your humanity and compassion for oppressed peoples.... try standing upright instead of walking on all four feet the next time you want to respond to my statements.

Peace ALLAH

I don't have time to respond to all of this right now, but suffice to say that I am currently teaching a class on the Old Testament, and the first pair of passages you reference from Genesis and their inherit contradiction came up in one of our first lessons earlier in the year.

When I have some more time I'll do my best to post the Roman Catholic perspective on all of this, or at least, my own views thereof.

Clarence 13X says

I would have to assume this is because whites have a history of oppression of peoples of color throughout the past 4 centuries. You cannot oppress someone for 400 years then all of a sudden call yourself the victim…that is silly. People of color all over the world were not permitted to participate in capitalistic activities and now all of a sudden because we have that opportunity you expect to dismiss 400 years of oppression.

Not me, or any person I know or cohort with. You are free to do any thing you want, and I won't even gander in your direction, to inquire. Because I don't give a good solid crank.

I will not sit silently while anyone squeezes political race juice out of me at my expense though.
You have the same exact opportunities as I do at any endeavor you may encounter. If you don't believe that, then that's personal emotional problems, not racial problems. So I can't help you.

Patrick Says

"Islam is very different that way. Violence against non-believers is commanded by Islam."

If you open a Christian bible to Deuteronomy 17 2-5: you'll see:

2If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,
3And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;
4And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:
5Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Why is it that Christians can ignore or interpret passages like this, and practice a peaceful religion, but Islam is categorized as violent when they have similar commands in their scripture. Are Christians the only religion that is aloud to interpret their scripture?

LOL, thanks EllieMae! That was awesome:O)

What I have a hard time comprehending, and mind you I spent 16 years in Catholic school 1st grade through university, is that even if you live life by the Golden Rule and do a darn good job, rarely mis-stepping in any big way, you still go to hell if you don't accept Jesus Christ, and this includes Taoist and Buddhists, some of the most peaceful folks I've ever met. Yet, if you are a serial rapist or even child molester and you find your way to God in prison and accept Jesus Christ as your Savior and ask forgiveness then you go to Heaven...WTF!?!?!

The more I try to figure out my upbringing the more I become an agnostic or even pagan, heck I'll even give atheism a shot!

fredMG says

If you open a Christian bible to Deuteronomy 17 2-5: you’ll see:

Yes, there are old testament bits that are pretty much the same thing as Islam. Don't forget where they go around slaughtering all the inhabitants of cities in Israel to make room for themselves.

But that's the OLD testament, much of which is considered obsolete or non-binding on Christians.

The NEW testament doesn't have any of that, and Jesus' own example was excellent in terms of non-violence.

Tenouncetrout says

Miscellaneous Forum
Christianity
By Clarence 13X on Sun, Nov 8th, 2009 at 10:13 pm | 232 views | rss | email this | add comment
Recently, there were some posts on Islam debunking the extremist views found within the Koran, which I accept as true accounts found in the Koran. In favor, here are your very own inconsistent myths about the mystery god named Jesus who hold mystical powers. I post this not to refute the greatness of GOD, but to denounce the stupidity of all religions whether Chistian or Islamic. Extreme and contradictory views are found within all religions because men were the creators of these cultures.
I hope one day that you young people will stop worshipping blindly, regardless of the cultural beliefs you folllow while you worship all religions are man made and do not give right for us to hate one another.
GE 1:3-5 On the first day, God created light, then separated light and darkness.
GE 1:14-19 The sun (which separates night and day) wasn’t created until the fourth day.
GE 1:11-12, 26-27 Trees were created before man was created.
GE 2:4-9 Man was created before trees were created.
GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.
GE 1:24-27 Animals were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before animals were created.
GE 1:26-27 Man and woman were created at the same time.
GE 2:7, 21-22 Man was created first, woman sometime later.
GE 1:28 God encourages reproduction.
LE 12:1-8 God requires purification rites following childbirth which, in effect, makes childbirth a sin. (Note: The period for purification following the birth of a daughter is twice that for a son.)
GE 1:31 God was pleased with his creation.
GE 6:5-6 God was not pleased with his creation.
(Note: That God should be displeased is inconsistent with the concept of omniscience.)
GE 2:4, 4:26, 12:8, 22:14-16, 26:25 God was already known as “the Lord” (Jahveh or Jehovah) much earlier than the time of Moses.
EX 6:2-3 God was first known as “the Lord” (Jahveh or Jehovah) at the time of the Egyptian Bondage, during the life of Moses.
GE 2:17 Adam was to die the very day that he ate the forbidden fruit.
GE 5:5 Adam lived 930 years.
GE 2:15-17, 3:4-6 It is wrong to want to be able to tell good from evil.
HE 5:13-14 It is immature to be unable to tell good from evil.
GE 4:4-5 God prefers Abel’s offering and has no regard for Cain’s.
2CH 19:7, AC 10:34, RO 2:11 God shows no partiality. He treats all alike.
GE 4:9 God asks Cain where his brother Able is.
PR 15:3, JE 16:17, 23:24-25, HE 4:13 God is everywhere. He sees everything. Nothing is hidden from his view.
GE 4:15, DT 32:19-27, IS 34:8 God is a vengeful god.
EX 15:3, IS 42:13, HE 12:29 God is a warrior. God is a consuming fire.
EX 20:5, 34:14, DT 4:24, 5:9, 6:15, 29:20, 32:21 God is a jealous god.
LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.
NU 25:3-4, DT 6:15, 9:7-8, 29:20, 32:21, PS 7:11, 78:49, JE 4:8, 17:4, 32:30-31, ZP 2:2 God is angry. His anger is sometimes fierce.
2SA 22:7-8 (KJV) “I called to the Lord; … he heard my voice; … The earth trembled and quaked, … because he was angry. Smoke came from his nostrils. Consuming fire came from his mouth, burning coals blazed out of it.”
EZ 6:12, NA 1:2, 6 God is jealous and furious. He reserves wrath for, and takes revenge on, his enemies. “… who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? His fury is poured out like fire, and rocks are thrown down by him.”
2CO 13:11, 14, 1JN 4:8, 16 God is love.
GA 5:22-23 The fruit of the Spirit of God is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.
GE 6:4 There were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood.
GE 7:21 All creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood.
NU 13:33 There were Nephilim after the Flood.
GE 6:6. EX 32:14, NU 14:20, 1SA 15:35, 2SA 24:16 God does change his mind.
NU 23:19-20, 1SA 15:29, JA 1:17 God does not change his mind.
GE 6:19-22, 7:8-9, 7:14-16 Two of each kind are to be taken, and are taken, aboard Noah’s Ark.
GE 7:2-5 Seven pairs of some kinds are to be taken (and are taken) aboard the Ark.
GE 7:1 Noah was righteous.
JB 1:1,8, JB 2:3 Job was righteous.
LK 1:6 Zechariah and Elizabeth were righteous.
JA 5:16 Some men are righteous, (which makes their prayers effective).
1JN 3:6-9 Christians become righteous (or else they are not really Christians).
RO 3:10, 3:23, 1JN 1:8-10 No one was or is righteous.
GE 7:7 Noah and his clan enter the Ark.
GE 7:13 They enter the Ark (again?).
GE 11:7-9 God sows discord.
PR 6:16-19 God hates anyone who sows discord.
GE 11:9 At Babel, the Lord confused the language of the whole world.
1CO 14:33 Paul says that God is not the author of confusion.
GE 11:12 Arpachshad [Arphaxad] was the father of Shelah.
LK 3:35-36 Cainan was the father of Shelah. Arpachshad was the grandfather of Shelah.
GE 11:26 Terah was 70 years old when his son Abram was born.
GE 11:32 Terah was 205 years old when he died (making Abram 135 at the time).
GE 12:4, AC 7:4 Abram was 75 when he left Haran. This was after Terah died. Thus, Terah could have been no more than 145 when he died; or Abram was only 75 years old after he had lived 135 years.
GE 12:7, 17:1, 18:1, 26:2, 32:30, EX 3:16, 6:2-3, 24:9-11, 33:11, NU 12:7-8, 14:14, JB 42:5, AM 7:7-8, 9:1 God is seen.
EX 33:20, JN 1:18, 1JN 4:12 God is not seen. No one can see God’s face and live. No one has ever seen him.
GE 10:5, 20, 31 There were many languages before the Tower of Babel.
GE 11:1 There was only one language before the Tower of Babel.
GE 15:9, EX 20:24, 29:10-42, LE 1:1-7:38, NU 28:1-29:40, God details sacrificial offerings.
JE 7:21-22 God says he did no such thing.
GE 16:15, 21:1-3, GA 4:22 Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac.

Son, I took advantage of my opportunities in the 40's before you were even thought of. I dont know where you live, but it must be nice to live in a Utopian world where discrimination does not exist. Whites have lived sheltered lives since the turn of the century, so there is no need for you to play the victim of reverse discrimination now. Never once did I say anyone on this thread was any part of my history, you are beginning to sound like you have hidden feelings towards blacks that you want to let everyone know about. Your punk ass ancestors kicked me and my family until we couldnt walk, but with time we rebuilt our family based on character, principles, and values....now you want to act as if it didnt occur? Father you see Kay....you and your oppressive ancestors. Early on, I went out like many others who tried to find jobs but was told the only thing I was qualified to do was shine some fuckin shoes. While your punk ass ancestors were busy handing out jobs to the European immigrants me and my people who had been here 400 years already went hungry, unclothed and uneducated. Now, 65 years later I got the same punks grand kids telling me to get over it, move on, when in fact I already moved on after 20 years on constant struggle while your parents were buying houses I was buying up buildings and acres of land...riding bubbles long before you knew how to blow one.

From the unrepentent stupidity that you spew, I dont believe you would have enough humanity to piss on me if I caught on fire.

Spoiled child never had to struggle in his life, now he wants to tell everyone else its not so bad....tell that shit to the kids of the “crack addicted single mother of 5 (each with a different daddy) that is a 6th generations-removed slave” that you and BAP so vehomently down talk....I dont need to hear it.

I am too old and too wealthy for this kind of entrenched stupidity.

fredMG says

If you open a Christian bible to Deuteronomy 17 2-5: you’ll see:

Yes, there are old testament bits that are pretty much the same thing as Islam. Don’t forget where they go around slaughtering all the inhabitants of cities in Israel to make room for themselves.
But that’s the OLD testament, much of which is considered obsolete or non-binding on Christians.
The NEW testament doesn’t have any of that, and Jesus’ own example was excellent in terms of non-violence.

So lets find out why the old testament is still a part of the bible, and has not been removed. See, if that is the case I can simply tear out the outrageous statements in the Koran. I agree, it is sad that many muslims focus on the negativity of the Koran and use it to justify their stupidity.

" much of which is considered obsolete or non-binding on Christians."

My question is why are Christians aloud to decide that some parts of their scriptures are obsolete, but Muslims are not aloud?

You are saying that because Mohammad had a life of violence, the religion he started will always be violent? Why can't religions other than Christianity change? Will Mormonism always be a religion of polygamy because their founder lived and promoted that life?

Most of the violence against non-believers in the NEW testament is in Revelation, but Jesus does let people know that hell will be worse than a physical death.

“Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

4"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. (Luke 12 4-5)

fredMG says

” much of which is considered obsolete or non-binding on Christians.”
My question is why are Christians aloud to decide that some parts of their scriptures are obsolete, but Muslims are not aloud?
You are saying that because Mohammad had a life of violence, the religion he started will always be violent? Why can’t religions other than Christianity change? Will Mormonism always be a religion of polygamy because their founder lived and promoted that life?
Most of the violence against non-believers in the NEW testament is in Revelation, but Jesus does let people know that hell will be worse than a physical death.
“Whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).
4″I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. (Luke 12 4-5)

You bring up some very good points, I dont think Patrick is anti-Islam but moreso attempting to create dialogue around the inconsistencies. Christian, Muslim, Mormon extremists will latch on to these themes and cite them as examples....reversing the positives found within the various religions.

There is some very good dialogue going on in these forums, too bad we are only reaching 250 people....or sheeple as Tenouncetrout calls them. We call them cattle.

Clarence 13X says

While your punk ass ancestors were busy handing out jobs to the European immigrants me and my people who had been here 400 years already went hungry, unclothed and uneducated.

no class.

race baitors are embarrassing.

Bap33 says

Clarence 13X says

While your punk ass ancestors were busy handing out jobs to the European immigrants me and my people who had been here 400 years already went hungry, unclothed and uneducated.

no class.
race baitors are embarrassing.

I think he makes a good point, even Pat Buchanan noted this phenomenon occurred in the early 1900's. This could be the root cause of why so many African Americans are struck with poverty...had opportunity been provided early on during the initial stages of their freedom we may have prevented the blowback that we are seeing now.

I dont see race baiting, I see frustrations from someone who has experienced an era that you and I did not.

and I see excusses that are just like bungholes. Everyone has one, uses it, and they all stink. My skin tone has no effect on my life until I LET IT. Period.

Yet skin tone did effect the lives of millions of African Americans in the early 1900s. There is a military term called "blowback"...look it up.

"Son, I took advantage of my opportunities in the 40’s before you were even thought of.
...
I am too old and too wealthy for this kind of entrenched stupidity."

The only difference I see in whites and black besides the obvious Political Gold blacks get to mine out of the obvious. Is the whites don't protect our lazy and shiftless punks, by looking for historical shit that happened before any of them before they were even born as an excuse as to why they can't get ahead.

".you and your oppressive ancestors. "

It seems like you got ahead, and you don't want to take a hard look at the youth of this generation or previous ones for that matter. And tell them to get off their shit and stay their dumb ass in school or go back. Work hard and save money. It is you and your type that is oppressing not me. I'm in no position to inspire those folks. It is you that has lost hope in giving a young punk a swift kick in the ass and telling them to straighten up and fly right.

all of the volient acts and drug use being done by the larger portion of today's ***** male community is not due to any choice made by me or my ansestors, or anyone other than the lazy punk thug doing the activity. The punk's mother and seed-doner get an assist and share blame with the nanny state gov programs that reward poor choices. So, if you wish to blame non-***** people for the situation that ***** males put themselves I guess you can blame the welfare system created by and funded by non-***** that allows people to breed and do drugs and get paid, rather than work and worry and strive. Other than that, personal accountiblity is what is not found in most of the ***** population in America and that is why the prisons are full of ***** males, and welfare rolls are full of ***** females. We were all slaves at one time if we go back far enough, so cut the crap.

I do not need your excuses for bad choices I make. Sell your snake-oil, Jesse Sharpton - Al Jackson, race baiting-garbage elsewhere. I aint buying it. THe guy in the white house blows your entire arguement .. as does C. Powel, Judge Thomas, Conde Rice, Gordy Clarke, Rev. Dr. M.L. King, Booker T Washington. Get behind me Satan.

Tenouncetrout says

“Son, I took advantage of my opportunities in the 40’s before you were even thought of.
…
I am too old and too wealthy for this kind of entrenched stupidity.”
The only difference I see in whites and black besides the obvious Political Gold blacks get to mine out of the obvious. Is the whites don’t protect our lazy and shiftless punks, by looking for historical shit that happened before any of them before they were even born as an excuse as to why they can’t get ahead.
“.you and your oppressive ancestors. ”
It seems like you got ahead, and you don’t want to take a hard look at the youth of this generation or previous ones for that matter. And tell them to get off their shit and stay their dumb ass in school or go back. Work hard and save money. It is you and your type that is oppressing not me. I’m in no position to inspire those folks. It is you that has lost hope in giving a young punk a swift kick in the ass and telling them to straighten up and fly right.

I agree, with the exception that not all black people show empathy for thugism...on television today, you see thugs are primarily portrayed where as 40 years ago you saw revolutionary figures like Malcolm X, MLK. The media chooses not to broadcast these figures in favor of thugs who are empathizers of stupidity. I do not condone thugism at all, my point is that there has been a series of events that has led us to where we are today. What worked 40 years ago wont work today as we now need to encourage all people to educate themselves, seek opportunity and build strong families. Regardless of race. If we took a survey I am sure everyone has a sob story...but it is the responsibility of those who have made it through to reach back and uplift someone who has been affected by whatever tragedy the "victims" have faced. Yes, on the outside there seems to be too much empathy for thugs in the black community but this is only within the poor neighborhoods and amongst the 85% (Deaf, Dumb and Blind). I think you call them sheeple, we poor righteous teachers call them cattle. There is a civil war going on in the black community. Niggas/Bitches versus Professional Men/Women...if you watched the mini-series Black in America you should have noted that in the early 1900's 1/10 of all blacks lived in poverty compared to 1/3 today. 1/3 of all blacks achieve a college education, where as 1/3 go to prison. The civil war I am telling you about is between professional, family oriented persons like myself and the thugs that follow the stupidity of Jay Z, Snoop Dogg.

We had this conversation on another thread, here is what will work:

Less welfare
More Education
Assimilation into the mainstream, which means less Hip Hop thugism
More focus on the family, less on nigga/bitchism

Bap33 says

all of the volient acts and drug use being done by the larger portion of today’s ***** male community is not due to any choice made by me or my ansestors, or anyone other than the lazy punk thug doing the activity. The punk’s mother and seed-doner get an assist and share blame with the nanny state gov programs that reward poor choices. So, if you wish to blame non-***** people for the situation that ***** males put themselves I guess you can blame the welfare system created by and funded by non-***** that allows people to breed and do drugs and get paid, rather than work and worry and strive. Other than that, personal accountiblity is what is not found in most of the ***** population in America and that is why the prisons are full of ***** males, and welfare rolls are full of ***** females. We were all slaves at one time if we go back far enough, so cut the crap.
I do not need your excuses for bad choices I make. Sell your snake-oil, Jesse Sharpton - Al Jackson, race baiting-garbage elsewhere. I aint buying it. THe guy in the white house blows your entire arguement .. as does C. Powel, Judge Thomas, Conde Rice, Gordy Clarke, Rev. Dr. M.L. King, Booker T Washington. Get behind me Satan.

Good point, color has nothing to do with stupidity. I agre that we should not accept excuses, I am asking for you to show empathy and not sympathy to the root causes of the issues. My point still stands, that we cannot forget what brought black people to the bottom. You have had 400 years to get it right, we have had what 40 years of Civil Rights, Equal Employment, Diversity in the workplace that has reversed the discriminatory practices of the past.

This is good dialogue, I think you are looking at me as an sympathizer of thugism but I only show empathy for the cause because I lived it...what do you see fixing the issues of the **** community AND issues of poor people here in the United States?

So your witty remarks were polite in comparison?

Clarence 13X blacks don't have a monopoly on stupidity believe you me.
There's an entrenchment of the thug culture in all of America's youth. Though I must say it is subsiding a lot since the bubble collapse.

The music message is getting harder to sell a ballers jet set life style in this economy.

Our youth have been hardened and lost value of human life and respect for others. Just look at those white thugs and a couple black fellers(working together not one or the other) set that kid on fire here in south Florida. And weeks up to that episode there has been several school stabbings and shootings.
None of those kids were black, they were just punks. That have forgotten how to take school yard lumps with out feeling dissed and fatally retaliating.

Our youth in general are screwed. I'd hate to be kid today, especially between 16-20.
Besides being confrontational, over their lack of perception of respect in either direction, they have to be micromanaged constantly.
Which with in its self makes a deadly combination.

broken families lead to broken people lead to broken families lead to broken societies lead to broken families lead to broken people.

13X, my answer is: We must rekindle the soul of the family, by finding the soul of person, and thereby anchoring God in society once again. We need family. I think that will help.

Jesus was wandering around Jerusalem when he decided that he really needed a new robe. After looking around for a while, he saw a sign for Finkelstein, the Tailor.

So, he went in and made the necessary arrangements to have Finkelstein prepare a new robe for him. A few days later, when the robe was finished, Jesus tried it on -- and it was a perfect fit!

He asked how much he owed. Finkelstein brushed him off: "No, no, no, for the Son of God there's no charge! However, may I ask for a small favor. Whenever you give a sermon, perhaps you could just mention that your nice new robe was made by Finkelstein, the Tailor?"

Jesus readily agreed and as promised, extolled the virtues of his Finkelstein robe whenever he spoke to the masses. A few months later, while Jesus was again walking through Jerusalem , he happened to walk past Finkelstein's shop and noted a huge line of people waiting for Finkelstein's robes.

He pushed his way through the crowd to speak to him and as soon as Finkelstein spotted him he said: "Jesus, Jesus, look what you've done for my business! Would you consider a partnership?"

"Certainly," replied Jesus. "Jesus & Finkelstein it is."

"Oh, no, no," said Finkelstein. "Finkelstein & Jesus. After all, I am the craftsman."

The two of them debated this for some time.

Their discussion was long and spirited, but ultimately fruitful -- and they finally came up with a mutually acceptable compromise. A few days later, the new sign went up over Finkelstein's shop:

"Lord & Taylor"
-----------------------------
Please forgive...