patrick.net

Train to nowhere.
Highest state taxes in the country. Extra nuisance taxes on everything.
CALIPERS to go bankrupt at some point.
Straws illegal

zzyzzx says

Train to nowhere.
Highest state taxes in the country. Extra nuisance taxes on everything.
CALIPERS to go bankrupt at some point.
Straws illegal

LA recently banned sale of fur too.
restaurant can be fined for giving someone water they did not ask for
restaurant can be fined for giving you straws you did not ask for.

Insanity of the left is real

Quigley says

Wait, wasn’t it a mantra of liberalism ....

According to Wayne’s daily strawman, yeah, sure, that’s liberalism LOL.

jazz_music says

Lies!

BTW

Truths!
BTW:
https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/noel-sheppard/2012/04/23/media-myth-debunked-republicans-are-more-informed-about-politics

zzyzzx says

Straws illegal

But free syringes are everywhere!

MisterLearnToCode says

But free syringes are everywhere!

And Illegals are free to live in our Sanctuary State and Gavin Newsom even wants to give them free healthcare.

zzyzzx says

Highest state taxes in the country. Extra nuisance taxes on everything.

Looking at overall tax burden by state California comes in at number 10. Outdoing California are:

10. California - Total tax burden: 9.57 percent

Property tax burden: 2.66 percent
Individual income tax burden: 3.65 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.26 percent

9. New Jersey - Total tax burden: 10.02 percent

Property tax burden: 5.12 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.46 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 2.44 percent

8. Illinois - Total tax burden: 10.08 percent

Property tax burden: 4.11 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.44 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.53 percent

7. Rhode Island - Total tax burden: 10.14 percent

Property tax burden: 4.7 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.31 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.13 percent

6. Connecticut - Total tax burden: 10.19 percent

Property tax burden: 4.17 percent
Individual income tax burden: 3.34 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 2.68 percent

5. Minnesota - Total tax burden: 10.37 percent

Property tax burden: 3 percent
Individual income tax burden: 3.7 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.67 percent

4. Vermont - Total tax burden: 10.94 percent

Property tax burden: 5.2 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.32 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.42 percent

3. Maine - Total tax burden: 11.02 percent

Property tax burden: 4.8 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.69 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.53 percent

2. Hawaii - Total tax burden: 11.57 percent

Property tax burden: 2.2 percent
Individual income tax burden: 2.85 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 6.52 percent

1. New York - Total tax burden: 13.04 percent

Property tax burden: 4.62 percent
Individual income tax burden: 4.78 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.64 percent

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/10/us-states-with-the-highest-tax-burdens.html

This one is easier to read, more data: https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494/

Kakistocracy says

Looking at overall tax burden by state California comes in at number 10. ... Total tax burden: 9.57 percent

Property tax burden: 2.66 percent
Individual income tax burden: 3.65 percent
Total sales and excise tax burden: 3.26 percent

What the heck does that even mean? I'm guessing those percentages are % of entire income that goes to the various taxes. Also, you can't write off sales taxes from your income tax, so summing the pieces isn't a valid calculation in any numerical sense.

Also, it's silly to talk about state-wide averages. Different parts of California are enormously different and different people's circumstances are different.

If you're trying to live a real life in silicon valley, you'll be paying double that 3.65% income tax average. For a single person, the 4% tax bracket starts at $19k and the 9.3% (!!!) bracket starts at $52k. A 1-bedroom apartment is $25k/year, so hitting the 9.3% bracket doesn't mean you've "made it" financially. You'll need a salary more like $200k/year to even think about buying a house, at which point you're more like 8% of income going to CA tax.

Sales and excise taxes ... sales tax is 9% (approximate) and you're not counting the extra tax on gasoline, I guess you're only using 1/3 of your income on taxed items? That could be right for some people.

Property tax... there are wildly varying percentages of income being paid for property tax. People who are in jail, bums, etc are paying 0. Renters are likely to be (indirectly) paying modest property taxes due to Prop 13. Old people with Prop 13 are paying close to $0 (which might be a high % if they are retired and/or not reporting their income). People who just bought a house might be paying 4% or 5%. It all depends.

SunnyvaleCA says

Renters are likely to be (indirectly) paying modest property taxes due to Prop 13.

Dude, do you even landlord? The rent is whatever can be sustainably wrested from the renters, as high as possible before you get no more takers.

Prop 13 means that slum lords can charge $2500/month to rent a shack in Watts and pay $1500/year in property tax that goes for the local schools. Which keeps the schools chronically underfunded forever, despite the relatively high rents parents pay in the district.
Prop 13 is the reason LA unified can’t afford to pay more teachers to reduce class sizes down from 45:1. That and too many administrators. It’s not that teachers are getting rich like the water bureaucracy. It’s that Prop13 makes the local education chronically underfunded.

Quigley says

SunnyvaleCA says

Renters are likely to be (indirectly) paying modest property taxes due to Prop 13.

Dude, do you even landlord? The rent is whatever can be sustainably wrested from the renters, as high as possible before you get no more takers.

Prop 13 means that slum lords can charge $2500/month to rent a shack in Watts and pay $1500/year in property tax that goes for the local schools. Which keeps the schools chronically underfunded forever, despite the relatively high rents parents pay in the district.
Prop 13 is the reason LA unified can’t afford to pay more teachers to reduce class sizes down from 45:1. That and too many administrators. It’s not that teachers are getting rich like the water bureaucracy. It’s that Prop13 makes the local education chronically underfunded.

Fully agreed. I am as much a low/no tax guy as one can get, but prop 13 is fucked up. I said multiple times lower property taxes for all and repeal prop 13. In fact I would go further. Remove mortgage interest deduction OR allow the same standard deductions for renters (allow to deduct rent from income taxes up to the same amount as property) and any other investments. The current situation makes it easy for people who already have money to suck those who rent dry while artificially propping up house prices by passing property through generations in trusts and other vehicles (even corporations do that), resulting in extremely high inflation in house prices and rents (next to healthcare) which lower income professions such as teachers cannot afford. It's fine if you're a private person and can't afford a posh place here in the bay area, you can move elsewhere, but it's an abomination that teachers cannot even dream of buying a flea infested tiny crap-shack with their salary in CA within 50 miles of the school they are supposed to teach at.

Prop 13 was suppose keep old people from getting taxed out of home not keep property commercial or residential from tax increases for perpetuity. Problem now is that CA government is horrible and will try to rip you off at every chance.

jazz_music says

The media’s bias, a large part of it is in fact right-wing bias

Paul Krugman is obviously biased here. What about CNN and MSNBC? If he doesn't see a heavily distorted bias on those networks then he isn't being objective. FOX is the only right-wing major network and conservatives are inundated with left-wing biased news everyday. If you were a conservative you would see it. Most reporters are dems, so to sit there and say the media has a right-wing bias is disingenous and false.

RC2006 says

Prop 13 was suppose keep old people from getting taxed out of home not keep property commercial or residential for perpetuity. Problem now is that CA government is horrible and will try to rip you off at every chance.

Sure but usually creating exceptions to benefit one subgroup doesn't work as intended and will get abused. Also old people are not the poor in CA or in the US in general. They may not be rich either but they are doing significantly better than the youth of whom most will never become a house owner or when they do they will be twice the age that granny was when she purchased her home. Not to mention the older generation is set wrt Medicare while health insurance & cost inflation screws the youth disproportionally. The vast majority of the poor and homeless are not that old. Granny can scale down, sell her bay area shack for 2MM+, buy a 1-2 bedroom for half the price and live plentiful for the rest of her life, including higher property taxes.

Quigley says

Prop 13 is the reason LA unified can’t afford to pay more teachers to reduce class sizes down from 45:1. That and too many administrators.

Yep. And retiree healthcare is NOT money being spent in the classroom.

mell says

Granny can scale down, sell her bay area shack for 2MM+, buy a 1-2 bedroom for half the price and live plentiful for the rest of her life, including higher property taxes.

In CA she can take tax she paying to the downsized home as long as the downsize is less than what she sells for.

Example she sells her 2m property she is paying $500 on and buy a 1.9m house and still pay $500.

Yup that proposition passed.
I really don’t see why people should pay significantly different property tax rates based on how long they’ve been a homeowner. It’s really a “got mine, fuck the new guys” sort of rule. It might have begun with good intentions, but the super inflation of 1975-1985 changed it into something else entirely.

Its really bs that prop 13 house can be put in trust and kept in a family forever at low tax rate, businesses I believe are even worse because the tax rate can be kept down as long as originator keep a small share.

Quigley says

I really don’t see why people should pay significantly different property tax rates based on how long they’ve been a homeowner.

Did your parents bring you here as a little kid, or birthed you here?

Or were you coerced to move to here with a gun to your head?

Just asking.

Quigley says

Yup that proposition passed.
I really don’t see why people should pay significantly different property tax rates based on how long they’ve been a homeowner. It’s really a “got mine, fuck the new guys” sort of rule. It might have begun with good intentions, but the super inflation of 1975-1985 changed it into something else entirely.

You weren't here during the tax revolt I take it. Shit was insane, unions wanted tax increases, while average Americans everywhere were foreclosing because they couldn't afford taxes to pay union pensions. That was fucked up.

Prop 13 nicely fixed that problem. You can at old age not worry about bullshit market speculation affecting your taxes. You shouldn't have to pay more taxes because someone is willing to overpay next door. It created stability for older folks. You get rid of prop 13 and you'll have homelessness and riots on the street.

Fortwaynemobile says

You shouldn't have to pay more taxes because someone is willing to overpay next door. It created stability for older folks.

Well said.

Sorry not buying it. There’s no reason for me to pay 4 times your tax for an equivalent home. The only exception I can condone for different tax rates for the same thing is a reduced rate for senior citizens (past 65), say 25% of normal tax. And no transfers.
We all need to pay the same tax if we are to feel right about it and be equally invested in the society.

Quigley says

Prop 13 is the reason LA unified can’t afford to pay more teachers to reduce class sizes down from 45:1. That and too many illegals.

FIFY

Kakistocracy says

New Jersey -

Property tax burden: 5.12 percent

Woo hoo, We're Number One! We're Number One!

We beat all you suckers on the property tax burden.

Now stop whining!

Go back in time and pay 30 years of taxes I paid into the system to help afford society and build it.
Your view of equality is very unequal.


Quigley says

Sorry not buying it. There’s no reason for me to pay 4 times your tax for an equivalent home. The only exception I can condone for different tax rates for the same thing is a reduced rate for senior citizens (past 65), say 25% of normal tax. And no transfers.
We all need to pay the same tax if we are to feel right about it and be equally invested in the society.

FortWayneIndiana says

Go back in time and pay 30 years of taxes I paid into the system to help afford society and build it.
Your view of equality is very unequal.


Quigley says

Sorry not buying it. There’s no reason for me to pay 4 times your tax for an equivalent home. The only exception I can condone for different tax rates for the same thing is a reduced rate for senior citizens (past 65), say 25% of normal tax. And no transfers.
We all need to pay the same tax if we are to feel right about it and be equally invested in the society.

That's fine but most probably even with all that pay-in take more out net-net than they paid in, the reason being the incredible inflation in local essential goods and services (Medicare etc.). Even though the millenials are stupid if they think they can vote in socialism and come out ahead when they're older they are worse off than the older generations. And then they have terrible work ethic on top of that, so it's a recipe for socialism.

Willing to bet Jazz's entire exposure to Q is from this article.

Fortwaynemobile says

You get rid of prop 13 and you'll have homelessness and riots on the street.

No kidding.

As if California's problems are that we aren't taxed high enough.

Quigley says

There’s no reason for me to pay 4 times your tax for an equivalent home.

hahahaha!

Then why are you doing it, Quigley?

Why did you pay too much and by doing so, lock-in too high of a tax assessment on yourself?

I didn't find your answer my previous question, just asking.... did your parents bring you here when you were a kid, or by birthing you here? Or were you coerced with a gun pointed at your head to come here and overpay?

Yeah it has been a pretty good larp. Qoomers still have faith and don't recognize it for what it really has been- a very successful stall tactic.

jazz_music says

A comprehensive counter-case to one of the more dumb conspiracy theories in history

Are you talking about that conspiracy of Russian collusion that's been going on for almost 3 years?

B.A.C.A.H. says

Quigley says

There’s no reason for me to pay 4 times your tax for an equivalent home.

hahahaha!

Then why are you doing it, Quigley?

Why did you pay too much and by doing so, lock-in too high of a tax assessment on yourself?

I didn't find your answer my previous question, just asking.... did your parents bring you here when you were a kid, or by birthing you here? Or were you coerced with a gun pointed at your head to come here and overpay?

If you sell your house, will you sell it at market price $$MM or 1970s $100k. Hope you can answer your own question.

Fortwaynemobile says

You get rid of prop 13 and you'll have homelessness and riots on the street.

You mean, just like every other state out side CA where there are no Prop 13 victims in every neighborhood.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Why did you pay too much and by doing so, lock-in too high of a tax assessment on yourself?

I paid the going rate. You can argue that it was too much, and i wouldn’t disagree, but it was the price of becoming a homeowner here.

I came here for work. Of my own volition 16 years ago. My job is here and so here I must live. I don’t want to be homeless, so I must participate in the housing market in some capacity. And renting sucks. I could rent my house instead but my rent would be very close to my payment now. And my only guarantee is that it would keep going up.

Sorry, the argument that “I paid 30 years of taxes” means nothing. EVERYONE who is a homeowner pays taxes! You’re not special! And I’d argue additionally that your 30 years of taxes will be equaled in real dollars by my own contributions in approximately 5 more years. So what now?

Prop 13 is a dinosaur, past its time or usefulness, and will shortly be shuffling off to go extinct.

Life is unequal. Your view of equality is unequal. My 30 years of taxes funded the state for 30 years, and it was a lot even then.

In 30 years your rate will be low too by ca standards, and you’ll be old too. That’s how it was designed to work.

Quigley says

B.A.C.A.H. says

Why did you pay too much and by doing so, lock-in too high of a tax assessment on yourself?

I paid the going rate. You can argue that it was too much, and i wouldn’t disagree, but it was the price of becoming a homeowner here.

I came here for work. Of my own volition 16 years ago. My job is here and so here I must live. I don’t want to be homeless, so I must participate in the housing market in some capacity. And renting sucks. I could rent my house instead but my rent would be very close to my payment now. And my only guarantee is that it would keep going up.

Sorry, the argument that “I paid 30 years of taxes” means nothing. EVERYONE who is a homeowner pays taxes! You’re not special! And I’d argue additionally that your 30 year...

Quigley says

I came here for work. Of my own volition

You and everyone else who jacked up the cost of living for by paying too much.

You knew what you signed up for and made your choice. Bellyaching about it won't change that reality.

I think we both know the solution for you. It's the subject of a different thread on Patrick's web site.

B.A.C.A.H. says

You and everyone else who jacked up the cost of living for by paying too much.

You seem quite anti-immigrant. I mean rabidly so. Apparently anyone who wasn’t born in California should GTFO. Not just the illegals, not just the legal immigrants, but also Americans who were born in other states! Are these your true feelings? Pretty harsh for someone who regularly leaves touchy feely liberal comments and wants others to be cool with his alternative lifestyle.

FortWayneIndiana says

Life is unequal.

No argument! My dad told me when I was a lad, “son, life’s not fair!” And that stuck with me. Life is truly not fair. But do we want our government to treat us unfairly and unequally as well? I guess you definitely do. It’s what we have.

Quigley says

Prop 13 is a dinosaur, past its time or usefulness, and will shortly be shuffling off to go extinct.

Prop 13 is the only thing preventing the last of the middle class from fleeing California and keeping the morons in Sacramento halfway sober. Just imagine how much worse the State's finances would be after the last recession of California politicians pegged their tax revenue to the volatile housing market?

I am not interested in turning California into the Illinois shithole where people are locked in their homes with crazy high property taxes and shitty government services so the Democrats running the State can keep fluffing up their obscene pensions.

If we got rid of or dramatically reduced our income and sales tax, maybe I would be willing to look at Prop 13. But I am not going to agree to raise our taxes yet again so millennial coders in Silicon Valley can buy a house.

Quigley says

anyone who wasn’t born in California should GTFO

No. Just the people who paid too much, bellyaching about it all the while, and so doing jacked up the cost of living for everyone else.
Most of my friends, my homies from East SJ, are not white. Yeah, Latino, Nisei (lots of those from this area), Chinese from a previous waive of immigration. Maybe I'm even married to one of those.