patrick.net

Actually for 1-oku 3500-man yen you can get just about anything, condo-wise, in Tokyo.

Here's an example of a super-deluxe condo for $1.4M.

Even with 3% 10-year fixed interest rates people can't afford $1.5M 40-year mortgages in Tokyo. THAT'S WHAT KILLED THEM.

None of those examples really work for SF. Every city is different. Manhattan is a global city with 1000X the wealthflows of SF. London is the most livable city in the whole of what remains of the British Empire.

SF is not Monaco or the other enclaves you list.

Hong Kong and Singapore are kinda similar but are true island-states, with master-planned Executive economies, not counties in a larger, competitive context

Don't get me wrong, like PA I think the fortress of SF will always be very expensive. The only question is how big the fortress is.

elliemae says

AdHominem says

This is not Ad Hominem from Nomograss followed by laughter from the “compassionate” ellie may.

Actually, it was.
AdHominem says

They would never resort to personal attacks and jokes at someone else’s imagined expense. Not a bunch of internet bullies at all.

Thank you for recognizing that we’re not internet bullies. I’ll sleep better tonight.

Glad you can revel in your inner demon. Have a HELL of a day!

Ellimae, no worries, he probably has AFLACK!

AdHominem says

Glad you can revel in your inner demon. Have a HELL of a day!

Thanks.

Me & my inner demons are going out tonight. We were out driving earlier on our motorsickles, saw some land and bought the farm. It's in a beautiful valley with plenty of drainage - the road to the property circles the drain and is quite lovely. I was thirsty after the ride, but I accidentally kicked the bucket by the door and consequently am still dying of thirst. We were called home before we got the chance to stop at the store.

I didn't want to go home - began fighting my demons but I lost - even though I fought the good fight. My demons are now upstairs taking a nap. May they rest in peace.

Oh my GAWD!

He was tossing out some numbers. SF isn't as expensive as some other places in the world. The rest of the US, ditto. Not earth shattering info but interesting. There doesn't always have to be a point, and there isn't alway cause for an argument.

Sometimes, "is" simply means "is."

Perish the thought! I'll probably be spilling it on myself and don't want to waste too much.

You bought a farm? Well, I'm not so sure. I wasn't barn yesterday. Hay, this is the last straw.
As far as war goes, tanks but no tanks, unless you tread on me.
PS: I once bought a farm but got rid of it post haste. Too much hassle. Ever try to teach an ant how to milk a goat?

>> Yeah but I still kinda want an answer.

No you don't, for the answer is right there in front of your beak, but you still can't see it. Stop lying to yourself. That would be a good starting point.

You're going to be the death of me, Mikey. But it's your funeral. My friend Ashley warned me about you - and I thought she was just choking. Now I'm not so sure, so I'll follow the procession of this post.

You offend me with your comments about my family - My aunt is outside, milking the goats right now. What makes you think she can't? She's a tough one, for chore. She can juggle the chickens with one hand while she shovels the bull with the other. Cow's that for a hardass woman?

I'm plowing through this post, was hoping for death puns 'cause I was called out by Ad Hom.

I dig. But death puns? That's the craziest thing I ever hearse. That's an odd thing with which to kick off this pun war. Perish the thought before I depart. I'm mortified and ready to blow a casket.

Sybrib,

I look at in in a different way: If you allow people to lie and do not call them on it, they will just continue. Allowing people to make dishonest arguments and then responding to them as if they are being reasonable simply validates their dishonest tactics. and encourages them to do more.

At some point one has to stop being excessively polite and just state things the way they are.

justme,

I suppose so. My point was, there was so much anger in his posts earlier, that it was akin to throwing a tantrum.

It kinda takes credibility away from one's argument if they make it in a tantrum.

Give a break. This is old news. These are TROPHY properties for the mega-rich in word class cites. The very wealthy were buying homes for absurd prices up until a few years ago. Note the article is from 2008.

Article:

6. Manhattan
Price: $4,320 per sq. ft.
What you get for $1.5 million: Studio apartment

Never mind most of Manhattan was never close to that, peaking out at around $1200/sqft

http://curbed.com/archives/2010/02/04/manhattan_housing_prices_doubled_over_past_decade.php

This data is not hard to look up. These are trophy properties, pure and simple. Comparing that to typical properties in the region is foolish.

Hmm, I don't think that there is some golden rule of the internet that a link must contain the the same exact text as the headline of the linked article, or even agree with the headline.

I think it is quite acceptable to provide one's own description of the linked material. Of course, if the description is off base then presumably someone will point that out in the ensuing discussion.

I do not see how linking with an interpretation constitutes filtering of opposing messages. The message is right there, just click through.

Nomograph,

when You spend the time and money to maintain Your Own website where You can use Your standards of Intellectual Honesty, please post a link to it so we will know where to get Your Fair and Unbiased Information.

Patrick has done that ever since I started reading the articles on his site. I don't think it is new and I definitely don't see it as a problem. Maybe you should provide a specific example to illustrate your point.

Nomo,
For that to be a valid point, wouldn't one first have to feel that the author (of any news story posted on Patrick) had wrote and titled their piece honestly? What do you feel would make the authors opinion of what the piece should be titled worth more than Patricks opinion?

How come there are never any positive articles linked to on the housing crash page? Why must everything be gloom and doom? And also, why is Patrick supportive of Socialst health care, but is not for the same policies when ti comes to bailouts? It seems to me that Patrick supports Socialism when it benefits him and then supports the free market when it benefits him (in housing).

Jeepers, what's with all the Patrick-bashing suddenly.

I can't speak for Patrick, but personally I can state that one relevant reason I am for universal healthcare is because disease strikes much more randomly than does greed and bad decision-making in the housing market, which is more of a your-own-damn-fault type of situation.

It ought to be pretty clear, I think.

http://www.property-report.com/japan-tokyo-condos.php
This article in early 2009 states that average condo prices in the Greater Tokyo area are $48.6 Mil Yen or ($420K dollars approx).. (A far cry from $1.5Million for a studio). ( I have a hunch those were 2000 sq foot luxury studios anyway).
Also in central tokyo the prices are a bit higher around 65.5 Mill Yen... or approx $713K in U.S. Still a far cry from those fake $1.5 Million dollar numbers... The fact they EVERY area had a studio/1 bedroom listed for 1.5 million should have showed any rational person that those numbers were horribly inflated.
Your point about wages not supporting incomes in other countries as proof they don't have to in the U.S. makes sense in small fortress areas...
But most people on this site aren't really looking to move into small fortress areas... We just realize that once you wipe the 5% of cream off the top of the coffee of america.. We are all essentially in the same boat financially. The top 5% can afford anything they want without needing to look at a pricetag... The rest have to live by the laws of economic supply and demand.. and yes.. real incomes in the areas we live and work.
I'm not moving to Beverly Hills in this lifetime... But I shouldn't have to over-pay for a small pool home in the valley with a good school district when i make more than my neighbors.

justme,
there is no cure for death. Forced wealth redistribution included.

i definitely missed the bottom bec of all gloomy news..

I think I'm pretty honest. I rewrite headlines because I enjoy it, and it helps point out spin in the media. I definitely concentrate on the downside of owning, because there's a real need for that. From your local realtor all the way up to the president, the mortgage system is a trap looking for debt-slaves. When the president talks about "supporting housing prices" in opposition to free market prices, you can be sure game is still rigged.

justme says

I can’t speak for Patrick, but personally I can state that one relevant reason I am for universal healthcare is because disease strikes much more randomly than does greed and bad decision-making in the housing market, which is more of a your-own-damn-fault type of situation.

Yes! If you're deep in mortgage debt and can't pay it back, well, it was your choice to borrow too much money, wasn't it? Why should it be anyone's problem but your own?

But if you're sick, there is no choice and no free market for you. You are forced to pay whatever they say or die, very similar to armed robbery. Sure, there's some personal responsibility for your own health (obesity and smoking for example) but lots of health problems are just random bad luck, followed by confiscation of your assets by the insurance industry.

Every other industrial country does health insurance better than we do. We pay twice as much per person and don't get our money's worth. At some point, enough Teabaggers will be bankrupted by the insurance oligopoly that things will change. But they're not too bright, so I think it will take a while.

The headline spin is part of what makes it entertaining. It's not like Patrick modifies the content of the stories. And I'm not sure the Internet gives out Purveyor of Truth licenses anyway.

elliemae says

Now, THAT’s anger. And overkill.

Seriously. I actually strongly agree with the second part of his post:

It’s funny how all those socialist countries can support all that demand for upper class housing and still provide health care for everyone. Very strange……….

The whole idea that having heavy government regulation in some industries spells the death of capitalist economies, and lowered prosperity is not backed up by the evidence.

HousingWatcher says

How come there are never any positive articles linked to on the housing crash page? Why must everything be gloom and doom? And also, why is Patrick supportive of Socialst health care, but is not for the same policies when ti comes to bailouts? It seems to me that Patrick supports Socialism when it benefits him and then supports the free market when it benefits him (in housing).

I may not agree with Patrick on political matters, but I agree with his view on housing/real estate.
From my point of view, our doom and gloom started when prices became disconnected from fundementals back in late 90s. The RE industry was working on borrowed time and marching toward day of eventual reckoning. As such the "Crash" is the long awaited correction much needed to keep our SV industries competitive and keeping jobs locally. High home prices have put both employeed renters and homeowners at high risk. All the pathic hype we heard over the past 10 years to justify high home prices have also crashed. The few who saw through this should be commended. Kodus to Patrick!

priya22222 says

i definitely missed the bottom bec of all gloomy news..

Baby! you havent seen anything yet!

http://www.housingbubblebust.com/OFHEO/Major/NorCal.html

I do the same thing on my posts.

cool_cat_me says

Patrick has done that ever since I started reading the articles on his site. I don’t think it is new and I definitely don’t see it as a problem.

I got no problem with it.

But if you’re sick, there is no choice and no free market for you. You are forced to pay whatever they say or die, very similar to armed robbery. Sure, there’s some personal responsibility for your own health (obesity and smoking for example) but lots of health problems are just random bad luck, followed by confiscation of your assets by the insurance industry.

NOT similar to armed robbery. You see in armed robbery a guy forces you to pay or he threatens your life. Getting sick or hurt is somewhat out of your hands, but no one is forcing you to pay. It is your choice to seek treatment or not (and what type of treatment you wish to pursue).

The confiscation of assets by the insurance industry is EXACTLY what the Bill in Congress would do. It would mandate that millions more healthy Americans contribute to the corporate interests. It would be a boon for HealthNet, Argus, Medco, Aetna etc... and for this increased cost you can expect longer lines at providers offices, and more Denial of Benefits. Give insurers more power and you can expect more of the same.

How about scrapping the insurance system all together? Allow everyone to deduct the entire expense of their health care from "earned income," (so you are not penalized for paying out of pocket) develop an optional public plan if you like but let people opt out too if they don't want to be a part of the state plan. (otherwise the state becomes the armed robber patrick).

At some point, enough Teabaggers will be bankrupted by the insurance oligopoly

At some point our government will be bankrupted (perhaps in our lifetime) and then it will be a moot point.

San Francisco isnt like the other global cities. A minor player! I havent seen rows of Million Dollar yahts parked in the harbor like on the Italian Riveria. A 2/2 900-1000 sq ft condo before the bubble were running under $200K before the bubble. Not much has changed to justify today prices!

Sale History & Tax Info Sale History
04/17/2003: $510,000
02/26/1999: $300,000
07/19/1996: $178,000
http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1885-Turk-St-1-San-Francisco-CA-94115/15085005_zpid/
2 beds, 2.0 baths, 1,010 sq ft

The pimps in Cads are long gone, replaced with "slick willy" in a shinny Bimmer who have to
maintain their high standard of living pimping RE. Somethings never change!

It's your choice whether to pay the robber or die. Same thing.

There are many bills in Congress at the moment, not just one. Any that would force us to pay for private insurance which has no real competition are definitely a step backwards. I never said I liked that.

I do like optional federal and state insurance plans. If they're optional and funded entirely by premiums instead of taxes, then they do provide some competition without force.

300 3rd St APT 1204, SF, CA
Sale History
07/14/2009: $550,000 Flag Close
12/16/2003: $475,000 Flag Close
08/18/2000: $500,000 Flag Close
04/04/1996: $210,000

300 3rd St APT 504 San Francisco CA 94107
Sale History
06/26/2009: $440,000
06/26/2009: $440,000
12/31/2008: $608,811
12/14/2005: $660,000
12/05/2003: $409,000

not even 2000-2001 prices are that sustainable.

It’s your choice whether to pay the robber or die. Same thing.

In this case, doctors, hospitals, pharmacies and anyone who works to support these industries are robbers. (*addendum for Ellie this is a joke)

Perhaps we should make practicing medicine for a fee illegal? (**so is this) "You will fix my gall bladder or we will shoot you." Now who is the robber?

That's why I asked about the housing prices per square foot in the rest of the country. London is $6,191/sq ft; Tokyo $2,334/sq ft, San Francisco $426/sq ft...

Salt Lake City (in my home state of Utah) is the closest thing we have to San Francisco, so I'll use that to compare. Please stop laughing now - I realize that the cities have little in common. However, it's the biggest city at 178,858 ppl spread over 109 square miles (1666 people per mile) compared to SF with 744,041 ppl spread over 45 square miles (16,636 per square). This is hardly scientific - the population numbers come from 2006 census info and we're only talking the actual cities.

According to http://realestateblog.slcagents.com:

Average List Price $273,277
Average Sale Price $264,398
Sale Vs List 97%
Average Sq. Ft. 2,619
Price Per Sq. Feet $101
Days on Market 88

However, when we look at 1.5 million dollar homes, the numbers are different:
http://realestate.yahoo.com/Utah/Salt_Lake_City/41-e-churchill-dr:6a95b5989783c88a326aba1883a87b65
$321.00/sq ft

AdHominem says

It’s your choice whether to pay the robber or die. Same thing.

In this case, doctors, hospitals, pharmacies and anyone who works to support these industries are robbers.
Perhaps we should make practicing medicine for a fee illegal? “You will fix my gall bladder or we will shoot you.” Now who is the robber?

Oh, my gawd! I'm a robber! Well, slap me silly and call me Susan... But the only way to ensure we continue to have competent physicians is to pay them. An unpaid all volunteer physician "force" wouldn't work.
AdHominem says

It is your choice to seek treatment or not (and what type of treatment you wish to pursue).

Not always. Discounting the complete silliness of your comment, what about those people who are in accidents and brought to the hospital without their knowledge or consent? And what about the municipalities that are charging for emergency response, even if the victim didn't call for it or want it?

So far as to whether it is one's choice to seek treatment or not - when a person is in excruciating pain or physical distress, it's no longer a choice, it's an imperative.

I am a avid reader but don't get involved with the posts at all.

Reply to the original post: I agree with Patrick's changes to the headlines. If he was wrong, then I would have a problem but there is no spin; just truth.

Reply to the hints in social health care: Be careful of what you want. Military health care is a perfect example of social health care. Service is very poor quality. Just take a look at the VA health care. The VA is socialized health care. The best doctors in the VA are the ones who volunteer from their great paying jobs to do some work for the vets. The system sucks!

elliemae says

So far as to whether it is one’s choice to seek treatment or not - when a person is in excruciating pain or physical distress, it’s no longer a choice, it’s an imperative.

Right you are ellie. Just like the good Samaritan it is YOUR responsibility to help those around you who you find in need. Not government, not "society". YOU. So if you see a problem with people in need why don't YOU find a way to fix it? That I would like to see rather than this socialist b.s. "if we just all had the same government health care plan everyone would be happy." B.S.

And you know what? Many Europeans and Canadians might be happy with their plan, but it doesn't matter, THEY HAVE NO CHOICE. Dig below the surface of the official media reports and you will find a bunch of people who slip through the cracks just like here.

RE: original post

Just for the record Patrick I find your rewriting the headlines to be an interesting addition to the site.
Thanks!