patrick.net

Elliemae, I always wonder what psychological issues interfered with the parents' ability to take care of their child. It's not an excuse. It's just that in my experience in working with parents and children that often the most abusive parents are the ones with the most serious and complex psychological issues. My problem with this case, and all cases like this, is that we honestly have no mental health system anymore in this country. We dismantled it in the 80's and we've done nothing but underfund and diminish the tattered pieces that are struggling to remain in place. I'm sure you're aware that county CPS workers often have hundreds of cases. There is no way that they can possibly monitor all of these cases properly with the attention and time they deserve. There is no way a CPS worker is given the chance to take a thorough assessment and to really take the time to understand the complexity of the family systems they are observing let alone the individual people with complex psycho-social issues in that family system. Cases like these illustrate like nothing else that we as a society don't care about children or families at all. Oh, the "family values" folks on the right give lots of lip service to caring. But when it comes right down to it they are the first ones to blame, shame, and cut people out of programs that are desperately needed. "Pick yourselves up by your bootstraps" works for people who are sane and stable. This doesn't work for the vast majority of cases that are brought before CPS or the tattered mental health systems. If we were to show real concern and care for our families and children, we as a society would value our social workers, psychotherapists, psychologists, case management workers, and counselors much more and we would fund a vast and robust system of care and support for families and children who struggle with complex psycho-social issues. I believe a society can be judged by how it treats its most vulnerable and disenfranchised citizens. On this basis, I'd give our society in the United States of America an F. We don't fund programs for our most vulnerable and disenfanchised citizens because they don't vote because many of them are too mentally ill-downtrodden-undereducated-underprepared for life. They don't have a voice so there is no political backlash when their programs are cut and/or diminished. The rest of us would rather have a tax break for corporations and our pocketbooks than to see our money going to help people in our society who really have needs who cannot simply "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" because they are truly disabled. Too often the mentally ill are judged as moral outcasts and as "lazy." Why can't people understand that mental illnesses aren't very different from physical illnesses in that the people who suffer with them aren't to blame for suffering from them? Instead we tell people with clinical depression to "buck up" and people with clinical anxiety to "calm down" and anyone with emotional issues to "get over it." These people would "buck up," "calm down," and "get over it" if they could, quite honestly. It's a crime that we have real effective treatments for many mental illnesses and that we have no system that facilitates people who suffer from mental illnesses to receive these services in an efficient and consistent way. It's time that our society realizes that mental health treatment can help even some of the people who look like "lost causes" to become capable tax-paying citizens who contribute to society. Denying mental health treatment and continuing to ignore our most vulnerable and disabled citizens actually costs us more than offering them consistent and efficient treatment. Most of the people in our jails today suffer from one form of mental illness or another be it addiction, posttraumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorders, mood disorders, or thought disorders. It costs us on average $50,000 per year to keep them locked away in places that do not help them to recover. When they get out they typically re-offend because we don't bother offering them any kind of rehabilitative treatment. Then we spend the money on putting them through the expensive court systems only to spend $50,000 per year to incarcerate them. If we had a mental health system that was effective, efficient, and consistent many of our "offenders" would avoid incarceration. The society would benefit because these people wouldn't be committing the crimes that mess up victims and force victims to spend valuable resources in order to heal the damage caused by mentally ill people who are left untreated. And we would get the added benefit that those who can be helped would become productive tax-paying citizens who would contribute to our society rather than causing a drain on our society. But instead we continue to be very mean-spirited people and blame the mentally ill for their illnesses and lock them away where they cannot possibly find healing to join society in a productive way. This is a moral issue. It's an ethical issue. Children and families who suffer from mental illness individually and systemically are left to fend for themselves. Then we see cases like this one in the news and we collectively scratch our heads wondering how anyone can possibly do what has been done. We just blame them and lock them away sending their children to abusive foster group homes and abusive foster families (if the children are lucky). It's disgusting. It's immoral. But that's the society we've chosen. It's sick. It's sad, and all of us should be ashamed.

simchaland says

I’m sure you’re aware that county CPS workers often have hundreds of cases. There is no way that they can possibly monitor all of these cases properly with the attention and time they deserve. There is no way a CPS worker is given the chance to take a thorough assessment and to really take the time to understand the complexity of the family systems they are observing let alone the individual people with complex psycho-social issues in that family system.

CPS workers are usually poorly trained, overworked and underpaid. APS workers, ditto. They have 72 hours to respond; I've had the police involved when a senior was in danger of being physically abused and exploited financially to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. The police said it was a civil matter. There are people who are waiting for our vulnerable seniors and preying on them. They become "close" to them and the next thing you know they're adding themselves to the checking account, their houses, etc. Hospital corporations do this too - I know of several people who've had the hospital (non-profit) show up to their house post discharge and offer to bring them to an attorney who can draw up a will making the hospital the beneficiary of the will. It's despicable. Nursing Home Ombudsmen used to be paid positions, now they're part-time or volunteer. Someone needs to protect our seniors from the nursing homes and assisted livings - to represent them and ensure they're not being mistreated. But we treat our sick and vulnerable people as if they're the least important of all. I have witnessed the atrocities of a nursing home, how the owner protected the perpetrators and how horrible it was for all involved. Not in my current job - I work for a place that not only follows up on every report but also has turned several staff members in for abuse and followed through to prosecution. Not so much in a past job, where a nurse with a history of abuse was protected by administration as she freely verbally, emotionally, and physically abused patients. In this case, this couple truly sounds like they were pretty messed up emotionally and psychologically. The child's father attempted to protect him but the courts sent him with the mom anyway. The step-father beat the wholy shit out of him, the mother was well aware of the abuse and allowed this child to die a horrible death. Yes, our mental health system is as broken as our healthcare system. But in this case, I doubt that mental health treatment or the lack of it is a mitigating factor. The courts were forced to hand over this child due to the laws even though the mother had abandoned him. I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they're in pain and horrible distress. I don't care what brought the couple to the point that they were at - I only care that they live & breathe and that's a privelege that should be revoked, slowly & permanently.

elliemae says

I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress. I don’t care what brought the couple to the point that they were at - I only care that they live & breathe and that’s a privelege that should be revoked, slowly & permanently.

I am 100% against the death penalty. That's the easy way out. Let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives if you really want to punish them. I have to disagree with you. I believe that mental health issues are at the center of this case. The court system is ill-prepared to handle the mentally ill and they are forced to do it because we have no system to prevent people like this from getting in such bad shape that they do these horrible things.

Well, you're the expert. My expertise is in benefits - I couldn't be a therapist, I'd want to put them all out of my misery.

elliemae says

I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress.

Heinrich Himmler had similar thoughts and desires. He enjoyed hanging people on meat hooks to suffer in misery until they died. Is that kind of what you meant by your torture reference "type where they take several days or weeks to die while they're in pain and horrible distress?" By the way, do you favor torturing terrorists?

Wow, comparing a jewish woman to a nazi. You continually impress me with how low you can stoop, just to make yourself feel relevent. Alas, rayray, I can't play anymore tonight. Please accept my sincere apologies - you'll have to play with yourself. I'm sure you do that alot.

Are you denying that you have a secret desire to torture people? You made it perfectly clear that you'd like to torture people for weeks: elliemae says

believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress.

I am not in any way saying that just becaue you enjoy torturing people that fact automatically makes you a Nazi. No way. It's just this one little area that Himmler and you seem to share. Thanks for playing!

RayAmerica says

Are you denying that you have a secret desire to torture people? You made it perfectly clear that you’d like to torture people for weeks:

Yes, I'm denying that I have a secret desire to torture people. It's no secret that these people deserve to be treated like the child that they killed. I find it ironic that you aren't incensed about the crime described in the OP. Is it because you've become hardened toward crimes against children? rayray - why is it that you don't care about this one little life that was lost and are attempting to twist the post away from the subject? People who may, or may not, have perpetrated crimes against young girls tend to dwell on nazi germany and attempt to deflect the subject toward others. You're really not a competent player yet. But keep trying, do play with yourself tonight and I'll be back tomorrow to check your progress. Check mate.

A person that has a desire to torture other human beings "for weeks to die while they're in pain and horrible distress" is very disturbed. There is something very strange about having the same desires that made the hideous Nazis, in particular, Heinrich Himmler, infamous. I sincerely believe you should check yourself into a clinic this weekend before you do damage to yourself, or worse, to another human being. Thanks for playing!

ellie .... We live in a civilized society here in America. Advocating torture along the lines of what the Nazis did is simply un-American. I'm really surprised that such a liberal minded person such as yourself would advocate these Nazi like torture techniques. Shame on you!

RayAmerica says

Are you denying that you have a secret desire to torture people? You made it perfectly clear that you’d like to torture people for weeks:

If she had an open desire to torture people she'd have everything in common with that turncoat John McCain, Sara Palin, and the Bush and Cheney crime families. Aren't they your heroes? If she has a secret desire to torture people, she could be into BDSM and have a dungeon in her basement where she rules as Mistress of the Underworld. But alas, I'm sure that's your fantasy and not hers.

I got your back this time ellie ..... I volunteer to torture each and every baby raper in prison. I will express my ways here, for you to fully understand JUST how exacting I will carry out their JUST PUNISHMENT for their crime: They shall be stripped nude and placed against a large wood faced wall. They shall be placed face-out and spread eagle by nailing their hands as far up and apart as possible. Their legs shall be forced open and held there by nails through the calf. Their male member will be held up and stapled to their abdomen by the loose skin on the penis. Then, each testical shall be seperated in the scrotum by driving a 16# nail between the two testicals through the scrotum , into the wood faced wall. Next, take one testical and drive another 16# nail through it. Not with an air nailer, but with a 12 ounce claw hammer. Note: if the murdering baby raper happens to pass out from the pain at this time I will stop driving the nail and revive the murderer - only resuming the nail driving once the murderer is awake. After the first testical is nailed to the wall, drive a #16 nail through the other one. Again, should the murderer pass out, revive them before continuing. So, that is how my conservative Christian mind, heart, and soul feels we should protect our clan from anti-social deviants that hurt others. Good punishments are great detourants.

There are very real (not psychological) compression points in stock, because most stock is sold by algorithm these days.

P/E is a shitty way to value stock. If you looked strictly at P/E, you would have thought buying Apple or google stock in 2005 to be a terrible idea, and Palm a great one.

simchaland says

John McCain, Sara Palin, and the Bush and Cheney crime families. Aren’t they your heroes?

Not a single one. I have no use for any of them. They're not conservative enough for me.

elliemae says All that I can say is that I hope these two people are placed in general population, and that their deaths are equally slow and painful. elliemae says

I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress.

Shocking statements from the left. Ellie is not only in favor of the Death Penalty, she favors a method that would prolong the torture of human beings from a minimum of "several days" to "weeks." I think this is a real window into the soul of the left.

Torture is un-American. It doesn't matter if you claim to be on the left or on the right. Every totalitarian regime, i.e. Nazi Germany, Maoist China, Lenin/Stalinist USSR, Castro's Cuba, Saddam's Iraq, etc. have all employed torture. When you begin to justify their torture techniques on convicted criminals, no matter how hideous the crime might be, it is a very thin line to cross whereby others in society may be the victims of torture. In a practical sense, a policy of non tolerance of torture in a society is a protection against the potential abuse of the power of government against citizens that they may consider to be "enemies of the state."

Bap33 says

So, that is how my conservative Christian mind, heart, and soul feels we should protect our clan from anti-social deviants that hurt others. Good punishments are great detourants.

Please direct me to the passage in scripture that grants the power to secular authorities to apply torture to convicted criminals.

Well, rayray. RayAmerica says

A person that has a desire to torture other human beings “for weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress” is very disturbed.

I do wonder why you aren't outraged at this crime. Is it because you support the act of child abuse, of torturing a small child and holding him captive for days, denying him medical care and watching him die? Is it because you've perpetrated such an act upon someone - and you've become hardened to the pain of little children? Does your network of friends email back & forth, identifying potential victims? Has Chris Hansen popped out of a closet while you were visiting one of your little "friends?" That's just sick and wrong. Why do you support child abuse? Why do you refuse to condemn such a heinous act? Why won't you tell us where you were when these little girls were possibly raped & murdered? Oh, rayray - it's safe here. We couldn't possibly think any less of you than we already do. I just hope, for your sake, that the authorities get to you before Bap does.

elliemae says

Why do you support child abuse? Why do you refuse to condemn such a heinous act? Why won’t you tell us where you were when these little girls were possibly raped & murdered?

More slanderous venom from a desperate, very disturbed, bitter, hate filled person. I've already said if I ever witnessed a child being abused, I would probably kill that person myself. In the real world, prison is the convicted molester's worst nightmare, far worse than the death penalty because of the "justice" they know they will receive from the convicts inside the prison. It is a well known fact molesters suffer greatly in prison, more so than any other inmates. What I'm against is your desire to have the state TORTURE these people for "weeks" before they are executed. By the way, you never answered my question as to what your position was regarding torturing known terrorists.

ellie .... Seriously, why are you so bitter and full of hate? What is it that happened in your life to make you this way?

RayAmerica says

By the way, you never answered my question as to what your position was regarding torturing known terrorists.

The punishment should fit the crime. RayAmerica says

It is a well known fact molesters suffer greatly in prison, more so than any other inmates.

rayray, It's a well-known fact that child molesters are kept out of general population as much as possible for this reason. RayAmerica says

I’ve already said if I ever witnessed a child being abused, I would probably kill that person myself.

Does this mean that you keep your eyes shut? I'm not surprised that you are able to justify yourself out of this one. RayAmerica says

ellie …. Seriously...

We're being serious? I wish that you had told me this before, because I rarely see anyone taking you and your ludicrous posts seriously. Is it fun always being the butt of the joke, rayray?

Repeat: RayAmerica says

ellie …. Seriously, why are you so bitter and full of hate? What is it that happened in your life to make you this way?

elliemae says

We’re being serious?

Now she attempts to say this was a joke: elliemae says

I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress.

Rebuked by a radical leftist for her radical, Nazi like position: simchaland says

I am 100% against the death penalty. That’s the easy way out. Let them rot in jail for the rest of their lives if you really want to punish them. I have to disagree with you. I believe that mental health issues are at the center of this case.

Thanks for playing ellie. Have a real nice weekend.

RayAmerica says

Thanks for playing ellie. Have a real nice weekend.

rayray, Love the nazi comments. But try as hard as you may, comparing me to a nazi is a pathetic attempt to play the game. The main reason that this game is fun is because you don't understand the rules. The more you post, the more ridiculous you appear. I appreciate that you want me to have a nice weekend. I shall - it's currently 65 degrees out and beautiful.

Ray, my friend, to stone someone would be a long and painful death - it's one suggestion in God's word. Another is to cast them from the midst of the clan - that means they starve or get used and abused by whomever finds them - or get ate by a lion - and that too is a punishment given by God. If you are suggesting the Christ does not expect the lives of innocent kids protected, maybe you missed how he felt about what should happen to anyone that so much as "harmed one hair on their head." Now, when Christ told the group about to stone the hooker that only those who are sinless should judge the woman, it was not about protecting innocent lives. Hookers, like drugs, have always been part of the human experience - and nobody has ever been forced to seek out a hooker. Christ's point (I think) was this: She was only a hooker because someone was seeking a hooker. So, the whole community was part of what created a hooker, and that means they cant blame her without blaming themselves. And, if one looks into the law given to Moses, it's hard to see what law a hooker is breaking if she aint married and the John aint married. There is a law against Adultery, but not against Fornication. And how could there be, any sex without the express intent of making a baby is fornication. Anyways - I am not Christ, I am a believer that he was the perfect sacrifice to cover all sin so we can get into Heaven - where sin is not allowed. I am a sinner. I do not feel sorry for people that do bad things. I feel sorry for innocent victims. I know full well that once a person is dead they no longer feel any pain - so, as long as a person goes from hurt to dead, the pain ends. How long it takes only matters to those who are still living after the screaming stops. Ok, this last sentence is the gold coin at the bottom of the purse: The reason for the public torture (or my other favorite, public hanging for all gang members) is not only about the punishment of the crime, it is also about the prevention of repeat offenders, as well as, new offenders.

Bap, You're wasting your time. rayray's posts are all about the hate, all about the attacking of others for what he imagines their views to be. At this point, he's trying to be clever by comparing my denouncing of this couple's actions to the beliefs of a nazi. He possesses a lack of compassion for this child, as evidenced by his attempt to turn this into yet another attack on me. He has long projected hatred, bitterness while asserting himself to be virtuous. He lost his credibility on this forum long ago, and is able to take satisfaction in having become the victim that he claimed to be all along. Every thread he creates is an attempt to manipulate facts & situations to support his status as a victim. Don't try to reason with him, because he can only view the world as against him in every instance. He doesn't play the game well, which makes it more fun for the rest of us as he isn't smart enough to figure out what the game's about. I've enjoyed playing this game very much.

elliemae says

At this point, he’s trying to be clever by comparing my denouncing of this couple’s actions to the beliefs of a nazi.

It has nothing to do with your "denouncing this couple's actions." It is about your desire to TORTURE them for "weeks" before their ultimate execution. Only when it comes to torture can a comparison be made between you and Heinrich Himmler, who enjoyed watching people suffer while hanging from meat hooks. Their deaths would have taken, I would guess, far less than the "weeks" of torture that you prescribed. So in that sense, I guess the case can be made that you favor torture to a degree that is worse than the worst of Himmler's methods, which is very, very interesting. Don't you agree?

Bap, IMO, your references are in OT law and do not pertain to NT. Woman caught in adultery was to show the hypocracy of the Jewish religious leaders that were full of sin themselves (He knew they could not cast the first stone). He also told the woman "go and sin no more." Paul does condemn fornication outside marriage in several passages of his epistles.

yawn.

Nomograph says

You are so far out there that you actually consider Bap33 a leftist.

Of course I know he's not a leftist. We're having a discussion, is that a problem?

Nomo .... Just for fun: do you think it is "lefist" to want to torture someone for "weeks" before you finally execute them?

People that use "this" is the new "That" are only trying to create a New reality for them selves.

When we talk torture, we all must agree that each person is unique in their degree experienceing an activity before it is called torture. For example, for me it would be torture to have my hands cuffed behind my back. It would drive me nuts. And then, if I were placed in a squad car and strapped in with no way to protect myself or save myself in case of a crash ... that would be torture to me. Could I claim torture since that is my personal view? Those abu-grab murdering thugs were able to push their personal view .. (by the way, aint it odd that Gitmo just dont get any play time now that Lord Barry is in charge? .. same prison, same prisoners, same Halliburton .. go figure.)

Bap33 says

When we talk torture, we all must agree that each person is unique in their degree experienceing an activity before it is called torture.

Bap, You are correct in saying that torture is subjective. For some of us, torture would be having to spend time cornered at a party with rayray. Seriously, you're trying to have an intellectual conversation with a child who lacks the ability to comprehend abstract thoughts. I think the only thing that rayray has proven here is that he believes that a child being beaten and left to die for days is okay in his book. Seems like the rest of us tend to believe that it's not. I don't know if I could be the one to torture these people, and I hope that I never have to find out if I possess the ability to do so. rayray say:

Nomo …. Just for fun...

But unlike rayray, I'm repulsed by their behavior and don't find anything about this subject alluring or amusing.

the subject is horrible.

Yea. Simcha mentioned that he's a psychotherapist (I believe) and, in that vein, believes in treatment and prevention. I gotta hand it to him - I was in school when I realized that I couldn't work with offenders. I believe that it's important to have people who can treat offenders. My friend works with drug & alcohol abuse and has seen and heard some heavy shit. It seems that many offenders are vicitms themselves. The question is whether or not they have the desire to stop the cycle of violence. I can't imagine what this child felt, locked in a room in pain - dying - while his mother and the piece of shit that beat him got married. I can't imagine what was running through the mind of his mother, or his offender. Maybe nothing, maybe they lack human emotions. I don't know. Like I said, I don't understand people who can commit such heinous acts of violence. May God have mercy on their souls because no one else does.

Nomo .... why are you subscribing to me a quote I never made? You can do better than that. If you are going to debate, at least make a half hearted attempt at being honest.

elliemae says

I think the only thing that rayray has proven here is that he believes that a child being beaten and left to die for days is okay in his book.

Another complete lie from the the Slander Queen. It must be a very bitter experience waking up in the morning knowing that your whole life is based on a lie. That is not a baseless claim. If you are willing to blatantly lie on a meaningless site such as this, I'm sure you lie constantly in whatever you do.

elliemae says

I believe that these people deserve the death penalty, but the type where they take several days or weeks to die while they’re in pain and horrible distress.

Ellie believes not only in the death penalty, but in torturing human beings from "several days" to "weeks" before they are executed. Nazi SS Chief Heinrich Himmler enjoyed watching people die slowly while hanging on meat hooks. If we advocate this type of torture, regardless how hideous the crime, are we (uh, pardon me, I mean elliemae) any better than the Nazis? Civilized societies NEVER advocate inhumane torture, NEVER.

RayAmerica says

Nomo …. why are you subscribing to me a quote I never made? You can do better than that. If you are going to debate, at least make a half hearted attempt at being honest.

Actually, rayray, this quote - made by Bap - was thoughtful, meaningful, and worthy of discussion. Therefore no one would ever actually believe that you would be responsible for it. It is ironic that you would defend you would make such a comment. RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I think the only thing that rayray has proven here is that he believes that a child being beaten and left to die for days is okay in his book.

Another complete lie from the the Slander Queen. It must be a very bitter experience waking up in the morning knowing that your whole life is based on a lie. That is not a baseless claim. If you are willing to blatantly lie on a meaningless site such as this, I’m sure you lie constantly in whatever you do.

You're not very good at playing this game. Gonna give you a mulligan.