patrick.net

rooemoore says

bdrasin says

Yes, I've looked at the possibility of relocating my family to a lower cost area in the Midwest or South and even with the lower salary I think we would be materially better off.

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA. The job also requires a lot of international travel. If he gets the job he will keep his condo (rent it) so he won't be priced out if he decides to return someday. I have another older friend who sold his home in the Oakland hills in 1999 and moved to North Carolina. He hoped to move back to California for retirement, but now sees that as a long shot. Priced out.

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.
2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

New Renter says

How did that lower salary look when the lower cost of housing and tax bracket were factored in? Do these places perhaps offer a more reasonable lifestyle than what you might have here in the SBA? You might actually get to work *only* 40- hours a week. You might *only* have spend a total of 1/2 hr in your commute.

The more people that flee to such places the more the talent pool grows. That will attract more employers and VC money.

Here's the reality I encountered with Austin, which has perhaps the second largest tech industry- affordable city wise. The pay was a lot less, housing was definitely less but not so fast...

The cheaper homes, and when I say cheaper, I'm talking in the 150-250k range, these were just about all located in the far-flung, mall-infested burbs. We're talking a sea of plastic clad Mcmansions stacked on one another next to big shopping mall full of big box stores and chain eateries. In other words: hell.

The areas that people like me would want to live in, as in an older neighborhood with character, access to local mom and pop stores, and within a reasonable distance to downtown were pricey. How pricey? More like 350-500k pricey. Sounds cheap( er) than the Bay Area until you see that the property taxes in TX are sky-high. As in some of those nicer areas the tax would be 3% a year and what's more, if the house goes up in value, then you'll have to pay even more. Suddenly a 300k house becomes a very expensive prospect.

Lastly, if any of you have been in tech long enough you know that nobody retires from the same company with a golden watch. If one is lucky these days they might squeeze say- 2-5 years out of a job at one place before going to another. In the BA... not a big deal as there's zillions of jobs. In Austin? You'd better hold onto that job for a long time because there are a small fraction of the available jobs and from my experience, competition for those jobs from the hordes of college grads and Cali- relocatees was fierce.

My take on the whole thing is that one could probably do pretty well simply working in the Bay Area for 15-20 years, save their California money, and then relocate somewhere else cheap. If you've saved enough money then you can then choose to live in either a smaller city or maybe even a rural area that isn't tied to tech jobs or whatnot. If you have enough, just buy a house or property for cash, stick the rest in retirement, have no debts, and get some stupid job that simply pays the utility bills and provides health insurance.

As for us, well we bought a house in the BA about 2 years ago and due to the timing, the cost for us is fairly small. And so we're still saving a lot. It is possible to do well here. Its about patience, saving, and timing.

Look at gerrymandered districts as well...

A few slight problems. We used to be a nation where the governers were part of the governed. Just like regulatory agencies are eventually captured by their quarry, Congress is no longer governed by the rules, regulations and laws that it imposes on the rest of us.

Newly minted elected simply parlay their commodity, a vote, to command personal wealth and privilege along well trodden pathways of lobbying and corrupt practices that fall below the radar.

Congress is a star chamber in a bell jar. Beg, borrow, lie, cheat and steal to become a member, you are now exempt from the governed and ruled by an established pattern of advantage, as long as you toe the lines of power.

Gore Vidal explained it pretty well when he tried his shot at public office, but lost, when he had several forceful conferences and secret meeting with various powers that be and even criminal enterprises that instructed him what he was to do if he was elected.

Snappy sayings:

Living on borrowed time. What can't continue,won't continue.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/alumni/magazine/lifespan

"By our estimate, national constitutions have lasted an average of only seventeen years since 1789 [1]. This is an unsettling estimate of life expectancy for a document whose basic function is to express guiding national principles, establish basic rules, and limit the power of government—all of which presuppose constitutional longevity."

This is damning evidence that will destroy the upcoming HillBill candidicy.

they win because we use the middle class and working peoples tax money to buy the tax of the poor who now make up the majority of voters. you can't change this, just expect to pay more more those that need more. or you can join the ranks and not work and just collect freebies and forget about this thread :)

Call it Crazy says

....""A broken system overseen by senior leadership contributed to the vulnerability of U.S. diplomats ... in one of the most dangerous cities in the world," she said in the report. "And yet the secretary of state has not held anyone responsible for the system's failings."

"What difference does it make now?"

bgamall4 says

Straw Man says

Again, it's impossible to shoot down a bird with a rifle.

People use rifles for practice.

You obviously have never shoot a rifle, let alone hitting anything with it. It is also glaringly obvious that you have no education beyond middle school (if that). And both of your arms are cockeyed beyond repair. I'm done wasting my time on you.

JFP says

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

He refuses to understand that the tech industry is about Google, Facebook, Apple, and the rest of the internet companies now. And, that's what is different about now.

advertising isnt Tech... as such, dont hold your breath, real tech are products that are essential and needed for any mission critical enterprise.

advertising is more akin to discretionary expenditure...

Apple, Palantir, VMWare, EBay, Paypal, Amazon, Walmart and a lot of other software companies are not about advertising. The tech world right now is all about software. Even networking is increasingly software based. You are living in yesterday's tech world.

Oh, i think what Paypal, Ebay and others have done are great things for the Bay Area.. but lets keep your feet on the ground and dont go overboard. I worked in all aspects of Tech, Software, Semi, Storage and Internet as well. Fact is I been in SW for a very very long time...

The difference today and then is we didnt have hype... frankly far more mature than the little kids you see at work today... lets face it they are kids!

edvard2 says

The areas that people like me would want to live in, as in an older neighborhood with character, access to local mom and pop stores, and within a reasonable distance to downtown were pricey. How pricey? More like 350-500k pricey. Sounds cheap( er) than the Bay Area until you see that the property taxes in TX are sky-high. As in some of those nicer areas the tax would be 3% a year and what's more, if the house goes up in value, then you'll have to pay even more. Suddenly a 300k house becomes a very expensive prospect.

lets be more competitive than TX and also have homes cheaper.. it wasnt that long ago, we saw fairly large homes like mine around $200-250K. But some went ape shit and think they are worth $700K or so... what are we Connecticut ? Hard to imagine Connecticut was more expensive than the Bay Area ....

JFP says

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.

2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

Tell that to the sales people in the field working for real Tech companies...

They are racking in more $$$ than you can imagine! If You work in SV

Tech... I really encourage you to talk to your Sales People, or Service

Engineers... You wont hear them complaining being far from the

Mothership or California...

JFP says

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

Its equally true for GE United Technology and many others who employ SW folks...from Maine to Washington to Texas and Florida SW industry are spread far and wide...It was very true we were central a must to be here.. but now everyone can do programming... there are no boundaries or restrictions.

Its all ying and yang.. a balance between SW and HW for products to work flawless.

rooemoore says

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA.

All true. Some really fine residential architectural gems, there, too. I will say, however, that the weather is pretty tough to take. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

New Renter says

and grew to 26 percent in the first quarter of this year. (2013)

yep... yet many are still missing this. realtors really have a clamp on the market.

JodyChunder says

. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

while it may be hot outside of SF city.. you see people bundled up

in sweater trying to smoke to keep warm... In Summer !!!!

Call it Crazy says

MrEd says

This is damning evidence that will destroy the upcoming HillBill candidicy.

HillBilly candidacy.... has an interesting ring to it....

That's HillWilliam to you, sir! (apologies the The Beverly Hillbillies).

Whenever there is a cute girl around, Bill tells them Hillary is his lesbian sister.

Too bad Bush & the Republicans didn't prevent 9/11. How many related deaths & injuries were there?

9/11 has never been prevented, since 4000bc...

HEY YOU says

Too bad Bush & the Republicans didn't prevent 9/11. How many related deaths & injuries were there?

Straw Man says

Again, it's impossible to shoot down a bird with a rifle. Even more so for a drone. Adding "assault" to the definition doesn't make it more possible. To have a chance at shooting down a flying object you need, basically, to deliver a cloud of projectiles, which is achieved either by shotgun-type weapon, multi-barell machinegun (think 4-barrel DSHK or, better yet, Gatling), cannon with shrapnel projectile, or missile with shrapnel-loaded warhead. Rifles are useless against flying objects.

Useless, ineffective, unlikely...yes. " Impossible"? No.

Back when we were kids in high school I was out with a friend waterfowl hunting and we had a poor day, as it was toward the end of the season when the birds were shy and educated to decoy spreads. Anyways, we were putting away our guns when we hear flocks of geese start to get up and move to their roosting ponds. My buddy pulled out a 10/22(rifle) from his pickup and popped a 50rd magazine in it(this was when you could buy high capacity magazines in California), and start unloading on this flock of snow geese 150 yards up when they came over us. To my surprise, one actually fell.

It fell into some thick brush and we looked for about half and hour but couldn't find it in the in the waning sunlight. We kept that incident to ourselves as we would have been in big trouble with our dads for the illegal method of shooting birds, but more importantly, the unethical take and waste of game.

thomaswong.1986 says

If your a foreign citizen, working in the USA, your income is taxable back home. Since your not reporting it makes you a criminal... simple !

No it's not. Only the US taxes non resident income. You haven't been able to comprehend this yet have you? Keep working hard and you will graduate 8th grade soon. There's no shame in taking so many tries to get through.

thomaswong.1986 says

Like i said, not my game.. you figure it out why the Govt is screwed up.

You are the only one that is screwed up, just admit you are too ignorant to answer the question.

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.

2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

Tell that to the sales people in the field working for real Tech companies...

They are racking in more $$$ than you can imagine! If You work in SV

Tech... I really encourage you to talk to your Sales People, or Service

Engineers... You wont hear them complaining being far from the

Mothership or California...

I'm not talking about sales engineers. That's just changing the subject.

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

Its equally true for GE United Technology and many others who employ SW folks...from Maine to Washington to Texas and Florida SW industry are spread far and wide...It was very true we were central a must to be here.. but now everyone can do programming... there are no boundaries or restrictions.

Its all ying and yang.. a balance between SW and HW for products to work flawless.

I'm just going to have to give up in arguing with you, because it's pointless if you are seriously going to continue to maintain that the tech industry is not centered in SV. The experience of everyone I know in the tech industry is completely different than your reality.

thomaswong.1986 says

lets be more competitive than TX and also have homes cheaper.. it wasnt that long ago, we saw fairly large homes like mine around $200-250K. But some went ape shit and think they are worth $700K or so... what are we Connecticut ? Hard to imagine Connecticut was more expensive than the Bay Area ....

We are more competitive than TX, which is why SV and the BA has 10X's more tech related companies with salaries that they are paying as higher to attract better talent. That's a given. Also- while I haven't lived here as long as yourself, I've lived here long enough to talk with many who have, including current and former neighbors, some whom bought houses as long ago as 50 years ago.

So for example, there was an older couple kitty-cornered from me when I rented a house for almost 10 years. They had paid close to $30,000 for their small-ish older house in the late 60's. For comparison, my parents bought their custom-built new home in the mid-70's in North Carolina on 15 acres of land for 17k. So in other words, even back then there was a HUGE delta in prices between the BA and other parts of the country. What's more, virtually every person I talked to had to really scrimp and save for their houses, and there was at no point a time when any of them felt that they had gotten some incredible deal.thomaswong.1986 says

while it may be hot outside of SF city.. you see people bundled up

in sweater trying to smoke to keep warm... In Summer !!!!

Have you ever lived in either the Northeast or midwest? I lived in the Northeast for a few years and let me just say that weather for about half of the year makes a BIG impact on daily life. There is a big difference between going outside and having your still wet hair from the morning shower freeze instantly, and being outside period actually hurts from it being so cold versus a day like today in the BA where its supposed to be in the 70's... in January. People say that we pay a "Sunshine tax". There is actually some value to having weather that's for the most part mild and pleasant for most of the year.

edvard2 says

Have you ever lived in either the Northeast or midwest? I lived in the Northeast for a few years and let me just say that weather for about half of the year makes a BIG impact on daily life. There is a big difference between going outside and having your still wet hair from the morning shower freeze instantly, and being outside period actually hurts from it being so cold versus a day like today in the BA where its supposed to be in the 70's... in January. People say that we pay a "Sunshine tax". There is actually some value to having weather that's for the most part mild and pleasant for most of the year.

Totally agree, but you are wasting your time debating Thomas.

JodyChunder says

rooemoore says

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA.

All true. Some really fine residential architectural gems, there, too. I will say, however, that the weather is pretty tough to take. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

I can't agree with the first part. I grew up in Indiana and we used to call it "India-noplace" or "Naptown". But yes the climate totally sucks.

OH, YEAH, GIMME GIMME GIMME, I'M SUCH A WONDERFUL PERSON, PUT ME IN CHARGE OF THE MONEY, GIMME GIMME GIMME, I'LL SOLVE ALL THE HORRID PROBLEMS, I WILL GIVE MONEY AWAY FOR FREE LIKE THE GOOD OLE DAYS, GIMME, PLEASE, GIMME.

This is the part that jumped out at me. Dead men tell no tales:
... it points out that Stevens had rejected additional security. The Defense Department had provided a Site Security Team in Tripoli, made up of 16 special operations personnel to provide security and other help. The State Department, according to the report, decided not to extend the team’s mission in August 2012, one month before the attack. In the weeks that followed, Gen. Carter Ham, the head of Africa Command, twice asked Stevens to employ the team, and twice Stevens declined, the report said.

Benghazi-9/11 death & injury score. Bush & Republicans leading by wide margin.

I'm sure the House of Republicans will massively increase spending for security for all Americans,globally. That should be simple. They spent a few bucks on two unfunded wars.

Bush/Republicans know how to use money efficiently & prevent waste.
They will soon be able to pay for $4-6 trillion wars.
Illusional Economic Geniuses.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ea6_1308237590

Ellen Brown, Web of Debt:
"The approach was pioneered in North Dakota, the only state to escape the 2008 banking crisis. North Dakota has the lowest unemployment rate in the country, the lowest foreclosure rate, the lowest default rate on credit card debt, and no state debt at all. It is also the only state to own its own bank."
I guess their great economy is due to Red State voting. lol
Wonder if the oil boom has anything to do with the state economy?
Finding massive reserves of oil probably wouldn't help other states.

The GOP knows they have to keep talking about thing thing for another three years. So far they've succeeded in doing so for almost 2 so far.

I give up. Some fresh ideas, some fresh thoughts on how to turn this country around. next repub primary should be fun-Benghazi, Benghazi, Obozocare , blah, blah , blah.

Maybe I should move out of this country for a few years and/or decades and come back when our leaders start making sense. Oh wait, this is the only first world country that charges taxes on expats/non-resident citizens. It also demands they declare their bank accounts to the IRS and will threaten foreign banks-thanks to OBozo the clown. Do the republicans bring that up in their attacks on him-nope. Sigh..

"manipulated" doesn't make sense, unless entities are so big as to "corner" a market, which makes no sense. Except possibly in the short run and at extremely great risk of the manipulator losing more than they can afford to lose.

That is,.. at risk of risking more than they are allowed to risk (see clearing firms rules etc).

But sure very short term minor manipulation happens. For example say some trader, who makes markets in gold, keeps on selling to buyers (at prices that give him the edge at the time that he sells but at some point he's short way more contracts than he wants to be.

Well, in a period of light volume he might try to push the price down through key support to elicit some selling at lower prices (good prices for him) where he can cover some of his shorts.

The risk is, what if the number of contracts he can buy at those lower prices is way less than the number of contracts he sold to push the price down. And buyers come in an bid the price right back up. Now he's short more than he was before and lost a lot on his attempt to take prices down to where they don't want to be.

The same concepts apply to the big guys.

Was the oil run up in 2007 manipulation ? Maybe. But I would argue that a lot of people believed in peak oil, which still a real concept at some point, but maybe alternative energy can keep up in such away that by the time oil production is actually dropping, demand will be too.

But my point is that the market was wrong, not because of manipulators, but rather just because it was. Did some big trading operations get long at some point, and bid up the price in front of some big interests that were effectively "short" either literally or in the sense that they had to buy oil ?

Sure. That happens in markets. But in my view the markets just got it wrong.

And then we went in to the great recession where demand fell off a cliff.

I'm not saying manipulation doesn't happen. I think that the money markets are manipulated a little with QE. And there was a time when Gold and Silver were manipulated by the hunt brothers. But they had their heads handed to them.

edvard2 said: The GOP knows they have to keep talking about thing thing for another three years.
Take solace in the fact that some GOP PAC is spending their hard earned money on a Benghazi "documentary film". It will all be for naught if some dark horse candidate emerges in the Democratic primaries and defeats Hilary (or for for some reason, she decides not to run).

The FED would have a keen interest in seeing that the price of gold stays down and they certainly have the ability to do so.

The cause of the crash seems conflicting and debatable, so let's look at motive. What is the motivation to take down the whole plane? To kill at least one person on board. Who? 230 people perished and it is a lot of research to find connections.

Here is the passenger list:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/twa800/list01.htm

Could it be these two?

"For them, Paris held the allure of money to do business. They were insurance company executives. C. Kirk Rhein Jr. was the chief executive of Danielson Holding Company, an insurance company in Manhattan, and he was on Flight 800 with William R. Story, who heads Danielson's main subsidiary, and Charles H. Gray, president of the Midland Financial Group, a Memphis company that was being acquired by Danielson. The merger was to be completed in September, and they were on their way to France to arrange financing."

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/19/nyregion/explosion-aboard-twa-flight-800-victims-lives-beauty-business-sports-scholarship.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

Who wants to spend the time trying to figure it out?

bgamall4 says

I am wondering how a fuel tank that is empty can generate that large explosion?

Take an empty gas tank off a car and weld a crease that is damaged.

I won't expect that'd you'd be able to give an answer when your study is finished.

I worked at a machine shop in my younger days. We'd seriously draw straws at who would get to weld the gas tank that day.

For comparison, drop a match in a bucket of gas. Guess what, nothing will happen (I've done it). The match will just extinguish.

Now drop a match in an empty gas can.

Expect a completely different result.

He's suing them because they did not warn him their private parts could be used as weapons.

Indiana Jones says

The cause of the crash seems conflicting and debatable,

No it doesn't. There is nothing to debate.

Indiana Jones says

so let's look at motive.

Why? It was an accident due to mechanical failure. Accidents do not have motives.

And there's cockeyed arms all over the place. That arm in the middle isn't even connected to anything.