patrick.net

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

This sums up Thomas totally. This is a quote from 2007. Then, he'll give you charts from 2011.

2007 or 2011.. the principle is the same since mid 80s... high costs housing is a job killer for Silicon Valley (deflationary industies) ... why else did you see Japanese snatch a good chunk of our global business. It was true 20 years ago, today and 20 years into the future...

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

He refuses to understand that the tech industry is about Google, Facebook, Apple, and the rest of the internet companies now. And, that's what is different about now.

advertising isnt Tech... as such, dont hold your breath, real tech are products that are essential and needed for any mission critical enterprise.

advertising is more akin to discretionary expenditure...

Apple, Palantir, VMWare, EBay, Paypal, Amazon, Walmart and a lot of other software companies are not about advertising. The tech world right now is all about software. Even networking is increasingly software based. You are living in yesterday's tech world.

New Renter says

It got those numbers by comparing home sales in county recorders’ offices with
those in the MLS.

So, all FSBO's are pocket listings then?

tatupu70 says

New Renter says

It got those numbers by comparing home sales in county recorders’ offices with

those in the MLS.

So, all FSBO's are pocket listings then?

I'd assume anything not listed on the MLS to be a pocket listing. There are websites which allow owners to put their homes directly on the MLS so those would not be a pocket listing.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

The Clintfucks are just criminally insane assholes. "Bush tricked me!" Wow.

No smarter than Republicans. Unfit for public office.

Homeboy says

Also non sequitur. Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack. If you believe otherwise, you are an IDIOT.

Nor Iran...

15 of 19 were Saudi Arabian, the rest were Egyptian and Moroccan, "allies" all.

61% of Foreign Fighters in Iraq were Saudi Arabians in 2005

In 2007, after years of strange reticence to reveal foreign insurgent nationality, Pentagon finally admitted that 45% of foreign militants in Iraq were Saudi Arabian nationals, and half of all detainees.

Page with tons of links to sources:

http://www.asecondlookatthesaudis.com/

We invaded and bombed the wrong country.

JFP says

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

Agreed. Though some of what Thomas says is true, in that some companies have either added or moved some operations to cheaper states, the Bay Area is still the undisputed hub of the tech industry in the US. Why? Mainly because its also where most of the VC capital is.

As an aside, I can say that prior to buying a house in the bay area, I did look for work in Austin, Raleigh Durham, Atlanta, and even Salt lake city. Even though there seems to be a non-stop plethora of articles about oh-how-cool places like Austin are, with scads of Californians fleeing for its cheaper housing and so on, I can say after visiting these places that their tech industries are a teeny fraction of what exists in the BA. What's more, most of the jobs I applied for were offering as little as 50% of what I had made in the BA.

edvard2 says

What's more, most of the jobs I applied for were offering as little as 50% of what I had made in the BA.

How did that lower salary look when the lower cost of housing and tax bracket were factored in? Do these places perhaps offer a more reasonable lifestyle than what you might have here in the SBA? You might actually get to work *only* 40- hours a week. You might *only* have spend a total of 1/2 hr in your commute.

The more people that flee to such places the more the talent pool grows. That will attract more employers and VC money.

New Renter says

edvard2 says

What's more, most of the jobs I applied for were offering as little as 50% of what I had made in the BA.

How did that lower salary look when the lower cost of housing and tax bracket were factored in? Do these places perhaps offer a more reasonable lifestyle than what you might have here in the SBA? You might actually get to work *only* 40- hours a week. You might *only* have spend a total of 1/2 hr in your commute.

The more people that flee to such places the more the talent pool grows. That will attract more employers and VC money.

Yes, I've looked at the possibility of relocating my family to a lower cost area in the Midwest or South and even with the lower salary I think we would be materially better off. Just as an example, I was talking to a company in Indianapolis and the salary range they were talking about was 80 - 100k which would be a 17-30% base salary cut, but with the lower income taxes it would be more like a 7-20% cut and I could buy a nice big house in a good neighborhood for 300k or less. The main drawbacks for me would be in lifestyle (no public transportation, not much to do) and culture.

bdrasin says

Yes, I've looked at the possibility of relocating my family to a lower cost area in the Midwest or South and even with the lower salary I think we would be materially better off.

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA. The job also requires a lot of international travel. If he gets the job he will keep his condo (rent it) so he won't be priced out if he decides to return someday. I have another older friend who sold his home in the Oakland hills in 1999 and moved to North Carolina. He hoped to move back to California for retirement, but now sees that as a long shot. Priced out.

rooemoore says

bdrasin says

Yes, I've looked at the possibility of relocating my family to a lower cost area in the Midwest or South and even with the lower salary I think we would be materially better off.

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA. The job also requires a lot of international travel. If he gets the job he will keep his condo (rent it) so he won't be priced out if he decides to return someday. I have another older friend who sold his home in the Oakland hills in 1999 and moved to North Carolina. He hoped to move back to California for retirement, but now sees that as a long shot. Priced out.

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.
2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

New Renter says

How did that lower salary look when the lower cost of housing and tax bracket were factored in? Do these places perhaps offer a more reasonable lifestyle than what you might have here in the SBA? You might actually get to work *only* 40- hours a week. You might *only* have spend a total of 1/2 hr in your commute.

The more people that flee to such places the more the talent pool grows. That will attract more employers and VC money.

Here's the reality I encountered with Austin, which has perhaps the second largest tech industry- affordable city wise. The pay was a lot less, housing was definitely less but not so fast...

The cheaper homes, and when I say cheaper, I'm talking in the 150-250k range, these were just about all located in the far-flung, mall-infested burbs. We're talking a sea of plastic clad Mcmansions stacked on one another next to big shopping mall full of big box stores and chain eateries. In other words: hell.

The areas that people like me would want to live in, as in an older neighborhood with character, access to local mom and pop stores, and within a reasonable distance to downtown were pricey. How pricey? More like 350-500k pricey. Sounds cheap( er) than the Bay Area until you see that the property taxes in TX are sky-high. As in some of those nicer areas the tax would be 3% a year and what's more, if the house goes up in value, then you'll have to pay even more. Suddenly a 300k house becomes a very expensive prospect.

Lastly, if any of you have been in tech long enough you know that nobody retires from the same company with a golden watch. If one is lucky these days they might squeeze say- 2-5 years out of a job at one place before going to another. In the BA... not a big deal as there's zillions of jobs. In Austin? You'd better hold onto that job for a long time because there are a small fraction of the available jobs and from my experience, competition for those jobs from the hordes of college grads and Cali- relocatees was fierce.

My take on the whole thing is that one could probably do pretty well simply working in the Bay Area for 15-20 years, save their California money, and then relocate somewhere else cheap. If you've saved enough money then you can then choose to live in either a smaller city or maybe even a rural area that isn't tied to tech jobs or whatnot. If you have enough, just buy a house or property for cash, stick the rest in retirement, have no debts, and get some stupid job that simply pays the utility bills and provides health insurance.

As for us, well we bought a house in the BA about 2 years ago and due to the timing, the cost for us is fairly small. And so we're still saving a lot. It is possible to do well here. Its about patience, saving, and timing.

Look at gerrymandered districts as well...

A few slight problems. We used to be a nation where the governers were part of the governed. Just like regulatory agencies are eventually captured by their quarry, Congress is no longer governed by the rules, regulations and laws that it imposes on the rest of us.

Newly minted elected simply parlay their commodity, a vote, to command personal wealth and privilege along well trodden pathways of lobbying and corrupt practices that fall below the radar.

Congress is a star chamber in a bell jar. Beg, borrow, lie, cheat and steal to become a member, you are now exempt from the governed and ruled by an established pattern of advantage, as long as you toe the lines of power.

Gore Vidal explained it pretty well when he tried his shot at public office, but lost, when he had several forceful conferences and secret meeting with various powers that be and even criminal enterprises that instructed him what he was to do if he was elected.

Snappy sayings:

Living on borrowed time. What can't continue,won't continue.

http://www.law.uchicago.edu/alumni/magazine/lifespan

"By our estimate, national constitutions have lasted an average of only seventeen years since 1789 [1]. This is an unsettling estimate of life expectancy for a document whose basic function is to express guiding national principles, establish basic rules, and limit the power of government—all of which presuppose constitutional longevity."

This is damning evidence that will destroy the upcoming HillBill candidicy.

they win because we use the middle class and working peoples tax money to buy the tax of the poor who now make up the majority of voters. you can't change this, just expect to pay more more those that need more. or you can join the ranks and not work and just collect freebies and forget about this thread :)

Call it Crazy says

....""A broken system overseen by senior leadership contributed to the vulnerability of U.S. diplomats ... in one of the most dangerous cities in the world," she said in the report. "And yet the secretary of state has not held anyone responsible for the system's failings."

"What difference does it make now?"

bgamall4 says

Straw Man says

Again, it's impossible to shoot down a bird with a rifle.

People use rifles for practice.

You obviously have never shoot a rifle, let alone hitting anything with it. It is also glaringly obvious that you have no education beyond middle school (if that). And both of your arms are cockeyed beyond repair. I'm done wasting my time on you.

JFP says

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

He refuses to understand that the tech industry is about Google, Facebook, Apple, and the rest of the internet companies now. And, that's what is different about now.

advertising isnt Tech... as such, dont hold your breath, real tech are products that are essential and needed for any mission critical enterprise.

advertising is more akin to discretionary expenditure...

Apple, Palantir, VMWare, EBay, Paypal, Amazon, Walmart and a lot of other software companies are not about advertising. The tech world right now is all about software. Even networking is increasingly software based. You are living in yesterday's tech world.

Oh, i think what Paypal, Ebay and others have done are great things for the Bay Area.. but lets keep your feet on the ground and dont go overboard. I worked in all aspects of Tech, Software, Semi, Storage and Internet as well. Fact is I been in SW for a very very long time...

The difference today and then is we didnt have hype... frankly far more mature than the little kids you see at work today... lets face it they are kids!

edvard2 says

The areas that people like me would want to live in, as in an older neighborhood with character, access to local mom and pop stores, and within a reasonable distance to downtown were pricey. How pricey? More like 350-500k pricey. Sounds cheap( er) than the Bay Area until you see that the property taxes in TX are sky-high. As in some of those nicer areas the tax would be 3% a year and what's more, if the house goes up in value, then you'll have to pay even more. Suddenly a 300k house becomes a very expensive prospect.

lets be more competitive than TX and also have homes cheaper.. it wasnt that long ago, we saw fairly large homes like mine around $200-250K. But some went ape shit and think they are worth $700K or so... what are we Connecticut ? Hard to imagine Connecticut was more expensive than the Bay Area ....

JFP says

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.

2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

Tell that to the sales people in the field working for real Tech companies...

They are racking in more $$$ than you can imagine! If You work in SV

Tech... I really encourage you to talk to your Sales People, or Service

Engineers... You wont hear them complaining being far from the

Mothership or California...

JFP says

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

Its equally true for GE United Technology and many others who employ SW folks...from Maine to Washington to Texas and Florida SW industry are spread far and wide...It was very true we were central a must to be here.. but now everyone can do programming... there are no boundaries or restrictions.

Its all ying and yang.. a balance between SW and HW for products to work flawless.

rooemoore says

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA.

All true. Some really fine residential architectural gems, there, too. I will say, however, that the weather is pretty tough to take. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

New Renter says

and grew to 26 percent in the first quarter of this year. (2013)

yep... yet many are still missing this. realtors really have a clamp on the market.

JodyChunder says

. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

while it may be hot outside of SF city.. you see people bundled up

in sweater trying to smoke to keep warm... In Summer !!!!

Call it Crazy says

MrEd says

This is damning evidence that will destroy the upcoming HillBill candidicy.

HillBilly candidacy.... has an interesting ring to it....

That's HillWilliam to you, sir! (apologies the The Beverly Hillbillies).

Whenever there is a cute girl around, Bill tells them Hillary is his lesbian sister.

Too bad Bush & the Republicans didn't prevent 9/11. How many related deaths & injuries were there?

9/11 has never been prevented, since 4000bc...

HEY YOU says

Too bad Bush & the Republicans didn't prevent 9/11. How many related deaths & injuries were there?

Straw Man says

Again, it's impossible to shoot down a bird with a rifle. Even more so for a drone. Adding "assault" to the definition doesn't make it more possible. To have a chance at shooting down a flying object you need, basically, to deliver a cloud of projectiles, which is achieved either by shotgun-type weapon, multi-barell machinegun (think 4-barrel DSHK or, better yet, Gatling), cannon with shrapnel projectile, or missile with shrapnel-loaded warhead. Rifles are useless against flying objects.

Useless, ineffective, unlikely...yes. " Impossible"? No.

Back when we were kids in high school I was out with a friend waterfowl hunting and we had a poor day, as it was toward the end of the season when the birds were shy and educated to decoy spreads. Anyways, we were putting away our guns when we hear flocks of geese start to get up and move to their roosting ponds. My buddy pulled out a 10/22(rifle) from his pickup and popped a 50rd magazine in it(this was when you could buy high capacity magazines in California), and start unloading on this flock of snow geese 150 yards up when they came over us. To my surprise, one actually fell.

It fell into some thick brush and we looked for about half and hour but couldn't find it in the in the waning sunlight. We kept that incident to ourselves as we would have been in big trouble with our dads for the illegal method of shooting birds, but more importantly, the unethical take and waste of game.

thomaswong.1986 says

If your a foreign citizen, working in the USA, your income is taxable back home. Since your not reporting it makes you a criminal... simple !

No it's not. Only the US taxes non resident income. You haven't been able to comprehend this yet have you? Keep working hard and you will graduate 8th grade soon. There's no shame in taking so many tries to get through.

thomaswong.1986 says

Like i said, not my game.. you figure it out why the Govt is screwed up.

You are the only one that is screwed up, just admit you are too ignorant to answer the question.

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

There are two problems with moving out of California if you are in Tech:

1) if you leave, you are going to be priced out of buying a house pretty quickly.

2) There is a much smaller pool of jobs to choose from. So, if you do move there it's difficult to find your next job that means lower chance to advance your career. There's also less chance to work on cutting edge technologies.

Tell that to the sales people in the field working for real Tech companies...

They are racking in more $$$ than you can imagine! If You work in SV

Tech... I really encourage you to talk to your Sales People, or Service

Engineers... You wont hear them complaining being far from the

Mothership or California...

I'm not talking about sales engineers. That's just changing the subject.

thomaswong.1986 says

JFP says

Yet, the competition for engineers among internet and software companies in SV remains intense. You are living in the past. You are fixated on hardware, while the future is software.

Its equally true for GE United Technology and many others who employ SW folks...from Maine to Washington to Texas and Florida SW industry are spread far and wide...It was very true we were central a must to be here.. but now everyone can do programming... there are no boundaries or restrictions.

Its all ying and yang.. a balance between SW and HW for products to work flawless.

I'm just going to have to give up in arguing with you, because it's pointless if you are seriously going to continue to maintain that the tech industry is not centered in SV. The experience of everyone I know in the tech industry is completely different than your reality.

thomaswong.1986 says

lets be more competitive than TX and also have homes cheaper.. it wasnt that long ago, we saw fairly large homes like mine around $200-250K. But some went ape shit and think they are worth $700K or so... what are we Connecticut ? Hard to imagine Connecticut was more expensive than the Bay Area ....

We are more competitive than TX, which is why SV and the BA has 10X's more tech related companies with salaries that they are paying as higher to attract better talent. That's a given. Also- while I haven't lived here as long as yourself, I've lived here long enough to talk with many who have, including current and former neighbors, some whom bought houses as long ago as 50 years ago.

So for example, there was an older couple kitty-cornered from me when I rented a house for almost 10 years. They had paid close to $30,000 for their small-ish older house in the late 60's. For comparison, my parents bought their custom-built new home in the mid-70's in North Carolina on 15 acres of land for 17k. So in other words, even back then there was a HUGE delta in prices between the BA and other parts of the country. What's more, virtually every person I talked to had to really scrimp and save for their houses, and there was at no point a time when any of them felt that they had gotten some incredible deal.thomaswong.1986 says

while it may be hot outside of SF city.. you see people bundled up

in sweater trying to smoke to keep warm... In Summer !!!!

Have you ever lived in either the Northeast or midwest? I lived in the Northeast for a few years and let me just say that weather for about half of the year makes a BIG impact on daily life. There is a big difference between going outside and having your still wet hair from the morning shower freeze instantly, and being outside period actually hurts from it being so cold versus a day like today in the BA where its supposed to be in the 70's... in January. People say that we pay a "Sunshine tax". There is actually some value to having weather that's for the most part mild and pleasant for most of the year.

edvard2 says

Have you ever lived in either the Northeast or midwest? I lived in the Northeast for a few years and let me just say that weather for about half of the year makes a BIG impact on daily life. There is a big difference between going outside and having your still wet hair from the morning shower freeze instantly, and being outside period actually hurts from it being so cold versus a day like today in the BA where its supposed to be in the 70's... in January. People say that we pay a "Sunshine tax". There is actually some value to having weather that's for the most part mild and pleasant for most of the year.

Totally agree, but you are wasting your time debating Thomas.

JodyChunder says

rooemoore says

I have a friend who owns a condo in SF but is applying for a job in Indianapolis. He tells me the city is a lot nicer than it is given credit for and that the cost of living is about 45% lower than the BA.

All true. Some really fine residential architectural gems, there, too. I will say, however, that the weather is pretty tough to take. Very very cold, and muggy in the summers.

I can't agree with the first part. I grew up in Indiana and we used to call it "India-noplace" or "Naptown". But yes the climate totally sucks.

OH, YEAH, GIMME GIMME GIMME, I'M SUCH A WONDERFUL PERSON, PUT ME IN CHARGE OF THE MONEY, GIMME GIMME GIMME, I'LL SOLVE ALL THE HORRID PROBLEMS, I WILL GIVE MONEY AWAY FOR FREE LIKE THE GOOD OLE DAYS, GIMME, PLEASE, GIMME.

This is the part that jumped out at me. Dead men tell no tales:
... it points out that Stevens had rejected additional security. The Defense Department had provided a Site Security Team in Tripoli, made up of 16 special operations personnel to provide security and other help. The State Department, according to the report, decided not to extend the team’s mission in August 2012, one month before the attack. In the weeks that followed, Gen. Carter Ham, the head of Africa Command, twice asked Stevens to employ the team, and twice Stevens declined, the report said.

Benghazi-9/11 death & injury score. Bush & Republicans leading by wide margin.

I'm sure the House of Republicans will massively increase spending for security for all Americans,globally. That should be simple. They spent a few bucks on two unfunded wars.