patrick.net

carrieon says

Single payer systems work elsewhere when everyone contributes the same amount of money each month, including their unemployed.

Sort of like a utility payment.

Do your homework. Most other countries health care is paid through taxes.

humanity says

Single payer would be bsically medicare for all. but they would have more leverage than medicare has now. They would dictate what they are willing to pay for a lot of services.

No not at all. Canada is the only country that does it that way. Most other countries employ doctors directly. This eliminates the huge cost of doctors having to track billing for services and getting paid for it. Doctors are simply paid a salary or given a fixed amount per patient per year.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

So? No one has yet denied that Lesbian Amazons Michelle Obama and Hillary Clinton led the Al Qaeda brigade that wasted the embassy, firing upon fleeing Americans with AKs and kissing each other when a dead American hit the dirt as they fled in abject terror. No one.

As conspiracy theories go, I like it! I heard that Michelle threw down her AK, embedded the gay ambassador's face into her massive, muscled Amazon buttocks and twerked him to death for Hillary's viewing pleasure.

bob2356 says

Canada is the only country that does it that way.

No, others do too. Taiwan for example:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/april/jonathan_cohn_interv.php

Here is my favorite part:
"JC: How did you decide on that model - the single payer? Why did you go in that direction?

MC: Well, we sent our people around the world to learn their programs, including the United States. Actually, the program is modeled after Medicare. And there are so many similarities - other than that our program covers all of the population, and Medicare covers only the elderly. It seems the way to go to have social insurance…"

So other countries are copying our own Medicare system and we are wondering what the best way to handle health care is here. Hmmmm...

Single-payer experiment will probably be as successful as Obamacare has been . . . i.e. another abysmal failure. Colin is obviously playing the good soldier here faithfully marching to a drum beat that will cost dearly to his own credibility. It's like the poor British soldiers in WWI following orders to go over the top straight into machine gun fire and die!

Colin's analysis is missing a crucial size factor: the US is much much bigger than each of the countries in that list. Most of those countries in that list have less than 50mil people, some less than 5 million (less than NYC alone), whereas the US population is over 300million! Bigger and more tiers of bureaucratic monopolies breed inefficiency and corruption. The single-payer systems in the world comparable to the US in size are that of Russia, China and India, none of which has a decent medical system for the vast majority of their population served by that single-payer system; only the cash-and-carry sector in those countries seem to deliver decent service to those who can afford it.

The largest country in Colin's list is Germany, at 79Million population, about 1/4 the size of the US. Their medical spending is 11.6% of GDP, significantly higher the 7% average for most European countries quoted here (averaged by country count, not by head count; a very misleading number). As you can see, size does matter when it comes to bureaucratic inefficiency, in a very bad way. In any case, the 17% of GDP in the US includes a lot of "export" service for foreigners coming to the US for medical care on cash-and-carry basis; that's actually a money maker for the US economy.

Waitingtobuy says

No, others do too. Taiwan for example:

http://www.pnhp.org/news/2009/april/jonathan_cohn_interv.php

Here is my favorite part:

"JC: How did you decide on that model - the single payer? Why did you go in that direction?

MC: Well, we sent our people around the world to learn their programs, including the United States. Actually, the program is modeled after Medicare. And there are so many similarities - other than that our program covers all of the population, and Medicare covers only the elderly. It seems the way to go to have social insurance…"

So other countries are copying our own Medicare system and we are wondering what the best way to handle health care is here. Hmmmm..

I forgot about Tawain, they changed the system several times in the last 20 years. They copied Medicare and are trying to deal with all the same problems as Medicare has, but it's starting to get away from them. They have been borrowing for the last several years to cover shortfalls in funding. Fee for service has led to large amounts of billing fraud. Short staffing to keep up profits has comprimised care. Advertising to encourage medical over usage is rampant.

http://www.thrf.org.tw/EN/Page_Show.asp?Page_ID=124

Not a great example or a ringing endorsement.

Reality says

The single-payer systems in the world comparable to the US in size are that of Russia, China and India, none of which has a decent medical system for the vast majority of their population served by that single-payer system;

What a load of crap. These are poor countries. The Us spends $8600 per capita per year for health care. China spends $224 dollars per capita, india $29, and Russia $609. It's pretty amazing how much health care these people get for such a small amount of money.

Reality says

In any case, the 17% of GDP in the US includes a lot of "export" service for foreigners coming to the US for medical care on cash-and-carry basis; that's actually a money maker for the US economy.

You want to provide some documentation on exactly what percentage of health care spending in the US is "export"?

Reality says

Bigger and more tiers of bureaucratic monopolies breed inefficiency and corruption.

So that's why those small lean private insurance companies have so much lower administrative costs than bureaucratic monopolies like Medicare. I am now enlightened. Oh wait I forgot, the insurance companies have much higher administrative costs, never mind.

bgamall4 says

Insurance scam isn't it? Medicare is the way to go for the nation.

No, the VA would be a much better example. Doctors on salary, no billing, no fee for service, no incentives for fraud or over treatment. Never ever going to happen. Way too much profit in the current system leading to way too much campaign money for politicos to protect the status quo.

The folks who are getting the free stuff don't like
The folks who are paying for the free stuff, because
The folks who are paying for the free stuff can no longer
Afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own stuff.

And the folks who are paying for the free stuff
Want the free stuff to stop.

And the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more
Free stuff on top of the free stuff they are already getting!

Now... The people who are forcing the people who pay
For the free stuff have told the people who are RECEIVING
The free stuff that the people who are PAYING for the
Free stuff are being mean, prejudiced, and racist.

So... The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been
Convinced they need to hate the people who are paying for the
Free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay
For their free stuff and giving them the free stuff in the first place.

We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there
Are now more people getting free stuff than paying for the
Free stuff.

Now understand this.

All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere
Between 200 and 250 years after being founded.

The reason?

The voters figured out they could vote themselves money
From the treasury by electing people who promised to give
Them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.

The United States officially became a Republic in 1776,
236 years ago.�

The number of people now getting free stuff
Outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff.

Failure to change that spells the end of the United States
As we know it.

After mistaking protein strands for collagen deprived free radical bombarded elastin fibers i feel i'm not qualified to answer your question.

Mark D says

SoftShell says

Those botox laden oldsters sure wind up with a creepy look.

Like they are laced with formaldehyde and ready for the viewing....

what happened to her face?

bob2356 says

What a load of crap. These are poor countries. The Us spends $8600 per capita per year for health care. China spends $224 dollars per capita, india $29, and Russia $609. It's pretty amazing how much health care these people get for such a small amount of money.

A patent drug may cost $10,000 per month in the US but only $10 in India! because that country allows generics maker to ignore patents. An X-ray in the US can cost as much as $500, a CT scan as much as $5000, whereas in India, China and Russia, the comparable procedure can be as little as 1/10 to 1/100 the price. So the numbers you cite are quite meaningless.

bob2356 says

In any case, the 17% of GDP in the US includes a lot of "export" service for foreigners coming to the US for medical care on cash-and-carry basis; that's actually a money maker for the US economy.

You want to provide some documentation on exactly what percentage of health care spending in the US is "export"?

Medical tourism is currently a $10+billion market (2012), and expected to double this decade.

bob2356 says

Reality says

Bigger and more tiers of bureaucratic monopolies breed inefficiency and corruption.

So that's why those small lean private insurance companies have so much lower administrative costs than bureaucratic monopolies like Medicare. I am now enlightened. Oh wait I forgot, the insurance companies have much higher administrative costs, never mind.

The "private" insurance companies in the medical insurance business are not small or lean. They are part of the national monopoly/oligopoly causing the problem; the insurance companies actually wrote the Obamacare law! in case you did not know already. Those "private" companies are the ones running the government! for those idiots who believe government coercive power is in or can be in the hands of lowly peons like you and me. When the government officials decide which software company to hire, the alums of the wife of the president gets hired, at your expense! So you and your employer get taxed into job elimination.

bob2356 says

bgamall4 says

Insurance scam isn't it? Medicare is the way to go for the nation.

No, the VA would be a much better example. Doctors on salary, no billing, no fee for service, no incentives for fraud or over treatment. Never ever going to happen. Way too much profit in the current system leading to way too much campaign money for politicos to protect the status quo.

Would that be the same VA system that produced the Walter Reed Hospital, where Cheney got the best repair to his broken heart, whereas wounded soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq got consigned to dilapidated rooms infested with mice and roaches? hmm, since neither condition is attributed to their respective incomes, such real life inequality may actually translate to lower income inequality for the dimwits as neither are paying the bills. On the slave plantation, both the slave owner and the slaves have zero income, so they must be equal according to the numbskulls.

The price menu, against which one can choose to buy or not buy, is what gives people the right to choose and consequently freedom and improving living standards over time. On the slave plantation, the slaves are given free healthcare, free education, free housing, free food and free clothing . . . all at the discretion the plantation owner of course.

Tenured doctors won't work any more diligently than tenured professors. How well have the latter worked out for the millions of unemployed new college graduates?

The problem with our medical system is the government enforced monopoly through license requirement on rendering service. If each city could only have one restaurant, and people are not allowed to cook at home for family members or friends or even oneself, and all food ingredients have to go through multi-billion dollar suitability trials before being allowed on the market, food too would be incredibly expensive!

Socialist politicians talk big about one payer health care, why? because majority of the people do not want to pay out of their own pocket for anything, that's why the majority are losers in life.

Do you know that in one payer health care system you cannot "jump the queue" for treatment even if you have money to pay for it yourself? Why? because the losers want to press you down to their level.

However, the moment these losers or socialist politicians need elective or special medical treatment and they have the money to pay for it themselves, they will fly out of their country and pay for the treatment.

This is no bullshit, google Canada Politicians Medical Treatment for example, you will see many socialist politicians flied out of Canada to USA to get treatment.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

I heard Hillary used Ambassador Stevens' disembodied arm for a dildo while Michelle twerk-decapitated Stevens.

Clearly we haven't had enough examination of this VERY SERIOUS EVENT that killed 4 Americans.

I propose we dedicate an entire phalanx of Congressmen to a standing committee, give them a decade and fund it to the tune of a trillion dollars, so we can get to the bottom of every embassy attack made since 1976. I'm pretty sure if enough GOP Congressmen spend enough time dissecting this, they will PROVE that the Democrats are the ringleaders in a conspiracy of embassy attacks.

This goes WAY deeper than you can imagine, clearly Jimmy Carter is the genesis of all this with his CIA operation to destabilize Iran. Billy Carter was disguised, and right in the thick of the "students" that took the hostages.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

So? No one has yet denied that Lesbian Amazons Michelle Obama and Hillary Clinton led the Al Qaeda brigade

This is the key fact.

Most suspicious that the White House website does not specifically use the terms "lesbian," "scissors,", "orgy of Satanic necrophilia", and "ambassadorial corpse dildo" in any point-by-point rebuttal of the allegations.

It would take so little effort to deny these allegations, and yet they are silent. Speaks volumes.

And George Bush was the greatest leader in the history of the World.

Dan8267 says

And people wonder why the economy is shit. Spending half your income on rent is like having half your income cut. You can't spend it on goods and services that lead to the virtuous cycle of production and consumption.

Such high rents SHOULD encourage new construction. More housing SHOULD mediate further rent increases.

That us unless new construction is not possible either politically or physically yet the population continues to grow.

Then you are fucked... Or not if the solution is to institute a zero to one child policy.

My solution?

Mandatory (free) birth control and abortion for anyone unable to qualify for a reproduction permit. Qualification requires savings equivalent to 20% down on the projected lifetime expenditure of each child and an income history proving the ability to pay the rest.

That way the only parents will be multimillionaires and only billionaires will be octomoms. Which is as god intended it to be.

Lets face it, we don't need domestic production of population anymore. Importing a prescreened, motivated and highly educated population is far cheaper and more efficient. Such workers can be allowed to stay throughout their prime working years and deported upon:
*illness (no more expensive healthcare!)
*criminal action (other than for the benefit of the company)
*poor-performance
*"retirement"

Such employees would be free to send money home but only in the form of goods or services provided by US suppliers thus continuing the "virtuous cycle of production and consumption".

As an added bonus this would eliminate the DoED and teacher unions as all education would be private. Workers could focus on work instead of l90% of playgrounds and schools could be re-purposed for condos or in high population areas tiny apartments.

Frustrated wannabe parents are free to adopt pets as surrogates.

I thought he was a better choice than Romney. Didn't like either candidate, but Romney seemed like someone who would institutionalize incumbency of wealth even more. And I didn't want that, I wanted America to stay the land of opportunity where social movement is well off.

Dan8267 says

And people wonder why the economy is shit. Spending half your income on rent is like having half your income cut. You can't spend it on goods and services that lead to the virtuous cycle of production and consumption.

The landlord will spend the money on goods and services. Likewise, the rent/tax that the landlords pay will enable the bureaucrats to spend the money on goods and services. As you can see, such demand-side analysis is dead end. You have to go to the supply side to see why more production is not taking place.

As for high cost of housing expense as percentage of income, the real issue is housing availability vs. population growth (New Renter above is onto something) . . . and why low income people stay in high rent area. I suspect the number is highly skewed by Section-8 households with massive government subsidies. That, and high income households that can afford spending 50% of after-tax income on housing as investment, as their other living expenses such as food, clothing etc. add up to 2% of their income.

Dan8267 says

And people wonder why the economy is shit. Spending half your income on rent is like having half your income cut. You can't spend it on goods and services that lead to the virtuous cycle of production and consumption.

Nonsense.

Landlords spend all their earnings creating jobs: every cent goes into start-ups that create high-paying positions in manufacturing and electrical engineering.

Renters just sock the money away in offshore accounts.

Michele is the Manchurian Lesbian. She will twerk decapitate Obama when shown a specific photograph of Hillary's clit ring.

bob2356 says

CaptainShuddup says

There's no such thing as free. I would just rather our tax dollars go to shit that would have a better lasting impact. Like healing the sick, with out a billing system or profit center in the center of the operation

So you are advocating a "socialist" medical system? Or do you have no clue what you want other than to complain?

bob2356 says

carrieon says

Single payer systems work elsewhere when everyone contributes the same amount of money each month, including their unemployed.

Sort of like a utility payment.

Do your homework. Most other countries health care is paid through taxes.

AH! So you do know, what I'm talking about, You're just being a Dick because that's what Liberals do. That's how they roll people!

bgamall4 says

Now, we have telecom companies competing

There is no competition when every company in a industry has to give one company money to utilize their pipe. The company at the top is the one really setting the prices.

Thanks for making my point against a "Single payer".

I voted straight Democratic for 42 YEARS in a row. Never again will I participate in a Soviet Politburo election where both levers are owned by 2% of the population.
The winner here is George W. Bush, who is now forever relieved of the title "Worst U.S. President in modern American History". At least I only voted for Obama once (god, I even rang doorbells for him and donated money). It took him about 60 days to sell me out to his owners: The Too Big To Jail Banks, Wall Street, and the Military INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX. And then spy on anything that moves. I guess if someone is going to spit in my face, I'd rather have a person who is honest about who they represent (Bush), as opposed to a liar's spit (Obama).

The oligarchy is going to love Hillary... did you see that she accepted a $500,000 gold necklace "gift" from the King Of Saudi Arabia a couple of months ago ? It was disclosed by the State Dept. per U.S. law. Think she'll wear it at the inauguation? Remember folk music?

"Mama, she keeps them unprepared
To meet the enemy
That's comin' unto us
Teach them that evil dwells across the sea
Lives in a mountain
Like they see on TV

Down in the heart of town
The Devil dresses up
He keeps his nails clean
Did you think he'd be a boogeyman?"

Buffy St. Marie
Suffer The Little Children

But every night Obama would come around,
And let the country down!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/XAAlZYY01FI

I think Gore was the last guy I voted for president. After that I stopped because I realized what a sham presidential elections are. I still enjoy the local and state elections though.

Call it Crazy says

OK, So who's paying those taxes and where are they coming from????

People who aren't paying $1500 a month for health insurance.

If you are a small player you go to the grey bar hotel. If you are a big player you compete for a cabinet post.

For the banks it is the cost of doing business, for the state and federal AG's it is a chance to declare victory every week.

For the rest of us it is evidence of the failure of the rule of law and the rule by a moneyed aristocracy.

Chuck Prince of Citigroup fame should be renamed Prince Charles of Citigroup.

Reality says

Medical tourism is currently a $10+billion market (2012), and expected to double this decade.

Yes and a large part of it is Americans going to other countries. Don't you ever look up facts before you post?

"A McKinsey and Co. report from 2008 found that between 60,000 to 85,000 medical tourists were traveling to the United States for the purpose of receiving in-patient medical care. The same McKinsey study estimated that 750,000 American medical tourists traveled from the United States to other countries in 2007 (up from 500,000 in 2006). The availability of advanced medical technology and sophisticated training of physicians are cited as driving motivators for growth in foreigners traveling to the U.S. for medical care, whereas the low costs for hospital stays and major/complex procedures at Western-accredited medical facilities abroad are cited as major motivators for American travelers. Also, the decline in value of the U.S. dollar is offering additional incentive for foreign travel to the U.S., although cost differences between the US and many locations in Asia are larger than any currency fluctuations."

Reality says

Tenured doctors won't work any more diligently than tenured professors.

Yet they manage to work quite diligently all around the world. They aren't tenured, they are employees. Do you know how health care works anywhere else?

MoneySheep says

Do you know that in one payer health care system you cannot "jump the queue" for treatment even if you have money to pay for it yourself? Why? because the losers want to press you down to their level.

Other than Canada that's false. There is private health insurance available in every other public health care system. There are doctors who see private patients outside of the public systems for people who want to "jump the queue". Try to actually find out what you are talking about before posting.

Reality says

Would that be the same VA system that produced the Walter Reed Hospital, where Cheney got the best repair to his broken heart, whereas wounded soldiers coming back from Afghanistan and Iraq got consigned to dilapidated rooms infested with mice and roaches?

I don's suppose you would like to document dilapidated rooms infested with mice and roaches at Walter Reade? Nah of course not, you never care to actually document anything. Easier to just talk out your ass.

My sister was treated at Walter Reade after Kuwait and I didn't see any dilapidated rooms infested with mice and roaches. Where did you find them at? Got any pictures? How much time were you at Walter Reade? Zero I would be willing to bet.

The majority of vets treated by the VA are satisfied with the VA. That's pretty damn good considering the kinds of serious problems vets frequently have. There are certainly some bad VA hospitals. There are some really bad private hospitals. So what's your point?

bgamall4 says

Captain. You need a dementia test

I don't think there is any reason at all to bother to test the captain for dementia. That would just confirm the overwhelmingly obvious.

LoL! The other SCOUNDREL has to cover the face in order to hide a full on SH*T eating grin

Yet, I'm always right.
I should change my handle to Al Weiss Right.

CaptainShuddup says

Yet, I'm always right.

I should change my handle to Al Weiss Right.

You are a legend in your own mind.

Well it is one honor that I wish Obama would prove me wrong.
But the more Teaparty, Racist, Republican I sound while describing the shit storm that Obama's short sighted follies will create, then the more right I am.

Obama is free to prove me wrong anytime. Though most here suspects he never will.

He's not even on your side. If you wanted to sit at the table with Obama, you would be sitting at the kiddie table with Cheney, Rove, and Woody. Obama sits with his Corporate titans in Bush's old Captain's chair.

bgamall4 says

YOu are full of it. Most people had no clue prices went down in real estate. The shills said it wouldn't. Remember David Lereah?

Wong, your defense of Wall Street is shameless and disgusting.

I don't think it's fair to call him shameless or disgusting. I agree the lenders need to be held responsible, so does the mainstream media for withholding the truth and being in the back pocket of the banks and real estate associations, but the public is still responsible for their own choices and mistakes. None of them should be bailed out, nor should a person be bailed out if they make a bad investment in the stock market. It really is time people start taking responsibility. Big business needs to be held accountable, but so does each individual. We live in a bailout culture that has learned to validate all negative actions under the sun. I believe we need to return to having standards and taking responsibility. We can't expect politicians and business leaders to take responsibility if we are not willing to take responsibility ourselves.

bgamall4 says

Most people had no clue prices went down in real estate.

Actually, people did know. We were encouraged to jump in before the bubble by almost everyone and the media backed them up, but just a little research showed us that housing went up and down a little, basically followed inflation, and was generally no more than twice the median income. One thing was obvious, nothing in our history looked anything like the market before the bubble, or now. It wasn't extensive research, just looking up the facts available to everyone. Patrick.net warned of the coming bubble and the shady loans the whole time. This very website warned of the clearly inflated housing market of the late nineties, and kept warning citizens with articles, graphs and historical evidence all the way to the bubble burst. The information was available, but everyone wanted to be in on the wave. It happens with stocks, gold and all kinds of potential investments. No one should be bailed out if an investment goes wrong. An investment is a gamble, and no one can convince me that people buying a home for nine times their annual income had no clue it was a gamble. They knew.

This must be the "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy" study.

Hard to really figure out how they sorted out the controls for this study, although the conclusion is one of those "Annals of DUHHHH!" stating the obvious things.