patrick.net

Lose logic argument (Check)
Make petty attacks(check)

I like how Liberals mastered the chicken pecking gobbledygook that are Tweets and it is even perfectly acceptable reprint news, and admissible evidence.

BUT!!!!

Blister a Liberal's ass in forum debate, their coup de grâce, the Crème de la Crème, the only desperate shit they can think of, is to poke jabs at grammatical mistakes.

It must be conflicting tormenting affliction to be a Liberal.

sbh says

You gotta admit, not being that moron is all he really needed.

Hey Genius, Obama has already made every single fuck up, that Liberals claimed every single one of his Republican rivals going all the way back to the 2008 primaries, would make.

He's not only the Liberal's description of Romney, he's been Palin, McCain, Perry, Bush, you name it. There's not one Republican boogieman that Obama hasn't topped.

He makes a 90 something year old Jimmy Carter, sound like the Smartest American in the world, and makes Jimmy Carter's administration a smashing Liberal success.

You'll need to do better than that.

CaptainShuddup says

He's not only the Liberal's description of Romney, he's been Palin, McCain, Perry, Bush, you name it. There's not one Republican boogieman that Obama hasn't topped.

How does a person get to be THIS intellectually dishonest ?

I wouldn't think being an illiterate dimbulb, who gets a boner every time Sean Hannity blasts some dishonest nonsensical emotion out his pie hole would be enough to do it, but apparently I'm wrong.

THe Captain is living proof of the damage that's done to this country by the likes of Fox news and talk radio.

He will respond that its no worse than the marxist dogma spewed by PBS, CBS, and CNN.

And he thinks he's being honest and objective when he says that.

Oh here comes Marcus to keep the topic on track.

clambo says

Mention Solyndra and they say that Bush "gave money to oil companies".

Well, the oil companies produce a product that we actually use, unlike Solyndra. But, I also think oil companies don't need any capital from Bush or Cheney...

Don't compare apples to oranges. The Oil-man doesn't like solar panel man, because solar panel man cuts into the oil mans market share. I'm sure the man who made floppy's didn't like the man who made cd's just the same way.

And if you want to talk about costs, factor in all the wars over oil and the national debt it created. US military doesn't go bombing random places so we could setup solar panels there, we go bombing places so we could take their oil. Those wars, they are very expensive. Hell everyone could have had solar panels in America for what they spent in any of these wars, we wouldn't even need oil than.

CaptainShuddup says

Oh here comes Marcus to keep the topic on track.

What topic is that ?

How much you hate Obama ?

How much you love Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh?

So now we have the claims that the reason Hillary, Biden, and Kerry voted to invade Iraq was the oil companies forced them to? That's interesting but baloney.

Solyndra and other solar and wind schemes are all welfare for political friends of Obama.

Obama bombed Libya and of course no one knows why.

I say cut off their money so they have no temptation to blow it on all kinds of adventures whether in the middle east, washington DC, or the Bronx projects. Give all govt. budgets a 5% "haircut", and cut taxes so those who earn money for their living can have more and either invest it or spend it.

We don't need foreign oil today, all of our needs can be found under our feet if we use natural gas more, which is inevitable anyway.

Sbh seems to have a seething anger for some "southern rednecks" who reside in Mississippi and elsewhere. So, because you think other people are ignorant, you believe the govt. must take more of our money to create departments to treat this "problem"?

So, what should the call the new department in DC to teach English to the ignorant foreigners who can't speak it? "Department of Literacy"?

clambo says

So now we have the claims that the reason Hillary, Biden, and Kerry voted to invade Iraq was the oil companies forced them to? That's interesting but baloney.

If they did it to prove that democrats aren't weak on national security, it doesn't mean that the real reasons for the war weren't mostly about oil.

There is some subtlety to this, because I'm sure you had high level "academics" on the right (mostly the neocons), arguing that having sufficient oil to meet our energy needs in coming decades is a national (economic) security issue.

Prioritizing sustainable alternative energy ? That's for those pansy "progressives."

clambo says

I say cut off their money so they have no temptation to blow it on all kinds of adventures whether in the middle east, washington DC, or the Bronx projects. Give all govt. budgets a 5% "haircut", and cut taxes so those who earn money for their living can have more and either invest it or spend it.

That ain't happening under Democrats or Republicans, so moot point clambo. You can run for office if you think you can do that. Otherwise, this is all wishful thinking.

You've seen Ryan's right wing plan, he practically reserved entire budget for military overseas blowing stuff up schemes.

This is what second amendment was meant to be. Who gives a damn about free speech if you can't enforce it! And nothing enforces your rights like a gun.

I believe this incident demonstrates very nicely the point that guns in the hands of citizens can check federal power and overreach. Dan's been arguing against the validity of this argument for years, but the fact of the matter is plain: if the government wants to get into a shooting war with its own citizens, it will lose even if it wins. Case in point.
Pwned by current events!

Quigley says

guns in the hands of citizens can check federal power and overreach

One thing about America, the Govt. has to think twice before firing on it's own citizens.

Ask the protesters in Kiev, Ukraine how they feel about Govt. snipers firing on them.

sbh says

FortWayne says

And nothing enforces your rights like a gun.

Damn right! Just ask any Pakistani.

I can just ask someone in Nevada and they will be right!

Jimbo in SF says

Quigley says

guns in the hands of citizens can check federal power and overreach

One thing about America, the Govt. has to think twice before firing on it's own citizens.

Ask the protesters in Kiev, Ukraine how they feel about Govt. snipers firing on them.

And a yahoo with a pistol and assault rifle is going to do what exactly against a trained sniper team?

Chances are the yahoo will be a headless pink cloud before he can disengage the safety.

There are only two ways that any government has managed to successfully govern a population:
1) with consent of the populace
2) with fear

Most governments use both strategies, but second strategy is limited in the USA by the Second Ammendment. Push too hard, commit obvious injustice and enforce it with jack booted thugs, and an armed populace pushes back.

However, if we were more like the workers' paradise of North Korea, the government would be able to use strategy #2 to invoke strategy #1!

My personal suspicion is that Obama has been sending his homie Dennis Rodman to North Korea on political research missions.

New Renter says

And a yahoo with a pistol and assault rifle is going to do what exactly against a trained sniper team?

Looked to me like there were way more "yahoo's" than Govt. agents in Nevada ... and the Govt. backed down.

I'm speaking of a situation with a mass protest like Kiev (or even Nevada) where the citizens are armed, not a 'crazed' individual against a sniper team.

New Renter says

Jimbo in SF says

Quigley says

guns in the hands of citizens can check federal power and overreach

One thing about America, the Govt. has to think twice before firing on it's own citizens.

Ask the protesters in Kiev, Ukraine how they feel about Govt. snipers firing on them.

And a yahoo with a pistol and assault rifle is going to do what exactly against a trained sniper team?

Chances are the yahoo will be a headless pink cloud before he can disengage the safety.

Way to entirely miss the point! It's not whether they win or lose that particular skirmish. It's that the government firing on its citizens would inspire armed revolution.
Obama backed down from that precipice because if he had ordered the Feds to start shooting, he'd be impeached as a start, and probably lynched later on. Do you possibly think the government can govern with any significant fraction of the population in armed revolt? It wouldn't be as nice a separation as North and South, either.

I haven't seen anything by Ryan I wasn't interested enough.

The U.S.A. has sufficient natural gas and oil probably for hundreds of years, so we could avoid buying anything from Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, etc. and keep that $500 billion/year in our own economy.

You guys would also benefit, since I bet you own mutual funds so those dividends from Chevron/Exxon will enrich you more than presently.

Much of the attention we have in the middle east is also doing the heavy lifting for Europe, a PERFECT example was us bombing Libya. We have zero economic nor energy interest in Libya but Europe does.

You solar and windmill guys obviously need to spend a few winters back East, nothing will help you in upstate NY or New England in the winter except burning something to warm your house, or nuclear to light it.

You could produce some natural gas with your waste and garbage, I doubt many people would but towns could if they wanted to spend money in this area. I also don't think it would be competitive of the stuff from under the ground, but it all adds up.

But the problem is that the assholes and idiots in Washington haven't the brains to allocate money correctly so I say cut them off their addiction to our money.

Like all blowhards, Bundy stoops to pathetic hypocrisy, claiming ancestral rights to the land. Of course, if Native Americans reclaimed the land Bundy says is his, I am sure he would have no problem with that.

I still have a question about 9/11. How does one take down 3 buildings with 2 planes? Damn good pilots? lol

There are a couple of lines here that cover a lot of territory.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/mn60YWO218k

Stocks had a much better rally than houses, and they're much more liquid.

Not a bad list. Like many others, I sat and waited, thinking housing prices would drop or stabilize. Instead I just watched rents and housing prices go up and up. Seems like 2011/2012 really was the year to buy.

I see all these charts posted here that talk about housing prices going down, inventory up in California for example. Yet in the Bay Area, all I see is prices going up, houses being sold and snatched up usually within 2 weeks. Rents keep climbing as well.

Oh well. Sat in the sidelines too long. Made the same mistake with the stock market by partially switching to cash/bonds after DOW reached 13,000, thinking there was no way it could go beyond that again. Boy was I wrong, QE-infinity wrong.

Landlords. It's always a good time to rent.

Hedge funds. people shorting housing stocks, etc.

For reasons #s 1,2, and 5 and the self-selection of readers, it was clear that the majority opinion on Patnet would miss the boat. There were plenty of people on Patnet arguing that things were turning around, and there were plenty of people who bought and dropped off of the site.

People don't want to believe something that is painful to them. Many perspective buyers sat it out not believing they would or should pay so much for the house they wanted. So, I don't think these people were lying. They most likely believed their book. At this point, it's pretty clear that they were wrong. Some hold onto their beliefs despite getting smacked in the face with contrary evidence. I'm not sure why that is.

Housing may very well take another dive in the next few years, but for now, the bears have been wrong and denial runs strong here.

YesYNot and CaffeineAddict I just moved you into the sane and on Pnet category. Great insights and comments. Thank you.

YesYNot says

Some hold onto their beliefs despite getting smacked in the face with contrary evidence. I'm not sure why that is.

Check out this link ...
http://youarenotsosmart.com/2011/06/10/the-backfire-effect/

"...when new evidence was interpreted as threatening to their beliefs, they doubled down. The corrections backfired." Meaning, when presented with facts/opposing views that contradict a held position, often people become more firmly attached to their position. Core beliefs and things held close to how people interpret the world are very difficult to change.

I think the new speed with which rushed "news" and opinions can reach the masses, via new media/internet, has caused a serious growth in this and may be greatly contributing to the polarization in the U.S./world.

Also, confirmation bias is at all-time highs as groups of like minded people can now so easily find one another and communicate.

I think the only thing a person can do is really challenge themselves and ask why they believe something. Also, when interacting with others, trying to understand where the core of their beliefs and perspective comes from is the means to finding common ground.

CallItCrazy and I, for example, don't agree on much with regards to housing. He has a different perspective on housing as he isn't in the bay area. So I read his comments with that in mind and things make more sense.

Anyone from Austin? It appears to be hotter than SFBA.

Good counterpoints. Particularly 1, 2 and 5.

Although I now am a homedebtor and don't post much, I still lurk.

I'm thankful that I pulled the trigger when I did.
I'd like to say I made a data driven decision based on all the great feedback here at this site - but truth be told I just got lucky.

That said, this place does have it's pulse on where things are, and more importantly, where they are headed next.

(Trolls and permabears notwithstanding)

Call it Crazy says

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

That said, this place does have it's pulse on where things are, and more importantly, where they are headed next.

OK, you're on the East Coast and not in bubble land of CA... Where do YOU see the market heading???

It will drift upward due to
1) Tight inventory
2) Rising mortgage rates
3) Rising rents

Taking the 10,000 ft view - all of the foreclosed people had to go somewhere. Some moved in with family, some moved away, but may transitioned back to renting. More renters and less rental supply caused the current rise in rents. This combined with mortgage rates generally rising results in a certain amount of sideliners finally switching to the buy side of the "rent and wait or buy now" ledger.

****

Further, the price appreciation will not be even. I think of it more along the lines of a dart board, with a job hub / desirable urban area as the center. As you get further out prices will appreciate slower than in the center = until you hit that magic "suburbia" zone - the inner ring of the board. It's the area we all love to hate. 20 minute commute, good schools, mcmansions on acre + lots - that sort of thing. Appreciation in these areas will be quite high - almost eclipsing that of city centers in some areas.

(Aside - this depends on the long term trend... historically there's been a long cycle of "move out to the country followed by "the city's where it all happens". Right now we're sill in a "city life's better" trend, so I expect this will be where the most price appreciation is until the pendulum starts to swing back to suburban living.)

Then you hit the outer suburbs. Commute time goes up so appreciation goes down. In some areas I'd suspect you'd barley edge out inflation - but its choppy since school quality is uneven from one town to another.

Finally the exburbs. Here at the limits of commutability (about 1 hr) are the city people who decided to "get away from it all" or suburbanites who were "priced out". This outer ring will see decent appreciation over the next year or so.

Beyond the exburbs you see a sharp decline in appreciation, as well as a general deterioration in the economic landscape.

If I had to put numbers on it YOY appreciation would be roughly as follows

City center (desirable areas): +12%
City outer limits: +6%
Prime suburbs: +10%
Outer suburbs: +5%
Exburbs: +8%
Beyond: +3%

With the average appreciation for most MSA's running about 6% over the next 12 months.

Just my two cents.

Not to defend the crap Obama is shoveling, but he didn't really get a chance to shovel it: everything was blocked by the radical GOP.

But the GOP is depending on the ignorance and short memory of voters who don't know (most likely) or don't remember that January 20th, 2009 was the day GOP leaders met and vowed to oppose everything Obama tried. Records were set for filibustering (look it up), and once House majority came in November 2010, Obama was cut off from control of the economy.

Also, total government spending through 2012 (and maybe today) is nearly flat under Obama - the federal sector had some increase, but state and local spending has shriveled.

We got Austrian austerity.

Call it Crazy says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

everything was blocked by the radical GOP.

I was waiting for the first one to post that.... Typical....

Why don't you answer with "Both sides are contemptible... I'm above it all... needs to be a third way..."

Are you feeling okay?

For someone who dumps hundreds of anti-Obamaxxx (-care, -stimulus, -whatever) threads here like dog turds in a park lawn, you sure are touchy when someone disagrees.

When did you acquire this iron-clad political correctness?

Call it Crazy says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

When did you acquire this iron-clad political correctness?

You haven't been following along... I hate both sides.... I just hate the Blue team more...

I am really having a hard time recalling a stream of anti-Boehner/Ryan/Cantor/Norquist threads from you.

I'll dig through the archives here. I'm sure they will turn up.

CaffeineAddict says

Not a bad list. Like many others, I sat and waited, thinking housing prices would drop or stabilize. Instead I just watched rents and housing prices go up and up. Seems like 2011/2012 really was the year to buy.

I see all these charts posted here that talk about housing prices going down, inventory up in California for example. Yet in the Bay Area, all I see is prices going up, houses being sold and snatched up usually within 2 weeks. Rents keep climbing as well.

Oh well. Sat in the sidelines too long. Made the same mistake with the stock market by partially switching to cash/bonds after DOW reached 13,000, thinking there was no way it could go beyond that again. Boy was I wrong, QE-infinity wrong.

I sat it out for housing, too. Probably it was a mistake. Maybe not. I didn't sit out the stock market, so maybe that offsets what I failed to gain in housing,

No one has a crystal ball. We do what makes sense to us given the information that we have. That is the best you can do.

Call it Crazy says

Iosef V HydroCabron says

I am really having a hard time recalling a stream of anti-Boehner/Ryan/Cantor/Norquist threads from you.

Last time I checked, that team wasn't running the country....

I was waiting for the first one to post that... Typical...

(The point being: your remark is precisely the point I was making in my first comment. Why is it only objectionable when I do it?)

What? The Fed is still buying like there's no tomorrow, you call this a significant taper? LOL. The market has been flat to slightly down YTD and rates have risen by a full point. The market has been fairly resilient and a small part of the recovery was organic, but the impact of the Fed has been clearly proven looking at the last 6 years and the slow-down in the market and slow rise in interest rates pretty much correlates with the smallish taper the Fed has begun.

Call it Crazy says

Come on, let's add to your 14 thread count

Go easy on him.

We can't all be uncritical, Pavlovian, "Ctrl-X Ctrl-V" automatons reposting every outrage piece from extreme rightist propaganda organs.

Rew, that link was interesting.

I bought houses in 2011 and 2013 & both are financed at 3.375. That has worked out well so far. As for stocks, I was all in with my retirement money, but too conservative with some other money. It took too long to get comfortable with the direction things were moving. Maybe the backfire effect had something to do with that.

I'm gonna need some unskewed polls here. This looks biased to me: