patrick.net

Justme, Your points 1 - 4 apply to Mexico as well. What happened?

Headset, that is a good question. But keep in mind that I did say "for many entirely different reasons", and listed some of them. The list is not exhaustive by any means, but indicates that there are many factors other than "free markets" that are part of the equation. Is it reasonable to think that Mexico would have been a long-time economical powerhouse if only they had "free markets"? "Free markets" was the ONLY factor that the poster rfe-SJ deemed important, and which I was responding to.

When TPB says he is not a Republican and not a liberal, I think his heart is more or less in the right place and he is just confused because he just "knows" he is not liberal or progressive. When the Wanker says he despises W Bush, I do not believe him for a second. Wanker is full-blown neocon shill.

Everything is relative. US has "free markets" relative to other nations. You cannot have absolute free market. Establishing free markets is not easy. You need right kind of judicial system and political system. Even though we crib, there is no country on the planet as good as US in that regard. We are not perfect but better than other countries. been there and seen it in other countries first hand.Our struggle is to make US better and not get enslaved to bad ideas (socialism) like other countries. Free markets are the "primary" reason for our success. We cannot have free markets without other freedoms. Our contitution was written for making us free and equal.Socializing health care is step back in free markets.We never gave free markets a chance in health care ..how sad. You can have the best resources ( south america, parts of africa..etc) but without a framework to establish free markets you can never shine like US. BTW, Free markets also mean that the participants in the free market are also free !

>>Free markets are the “primary” reason for our success. I don't think so. The problem is that some of these free-market fundamentalists confuse "free markets" and the more important aspects of society, such as a democratic constitution, near-universal suffrage (voting rights), and the rule of law. And universal health care, in those places that are so lucky. The kind of fake "free market" we have had in the US is highly overrated. It's been a nasty monopolistic mess most of the time.

You are being manipulated, these spontaeous uprisings are no more grass roots than were the tea parties (that made a chunk of change for Lipton, by the way). http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/tampa-town-hall-on-health_n_253478.html http://mediamatters.org/research/200908060014 http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2009/08/labor_weighs_in.html http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2009/08/07/town-hall-protestors-forget-the-lessons-of-kindergarten/?cxntfid=blogs_jay_bookman_blog http://mediamatters.org/research/200908040053 Probably the most pertinent and informative article: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/town_hall_meeting_gives?utm_source=infocus

Speaking of good news, right now there is a TV program (or infomercial) in Mandarin langauage called Financial World of Wonders on channel 38.1 here in Silicon Valley. They have a bunch of chinese realtor and mortgage broker types apparently trying to talk up the local market. You gotta give it to these people, they actually have graphs of asking versus selling price and other data. Does anyone in the know want to translate what the spiel is?

You cannot have free market without "democratic constitution, near-universal suffrage (voting rights), and the rule of law" I am taking about the free market in the true sense not just the "market" I think US is far more superior to other countries in this aspect even though we are not perfect. You have to stay in other countries to appreciate that, not just read some literature. I don't believe we ever had free market in health care.

that this was the sole reason for the 200 year of relatively steady economic progress US had a constitution primarily focused on one thing "freedom" A free market is a natural by product of those freedoms. "freedom to buy and sell goods with everybody having equal rights"

>>You have to stay in other countries to appreciate that, not just read some literature. Uh, dude, I have plenty of first hand experience in that department. Why do you think I state with such certainty that the US "free market" is overrated? It is based on personal observation and experience, that's why. Unlike nutbag neocons (not necessarily you), I form opinions based on observation and analysis, not what tripe Rush Limbaugh is spewing.

I agree when you say US “free market” is overrated but i still believe we have the most free markets in the world and health care is an exception ( black mark) I never liked rush..he is just a clown whose sole purpose is to make money by saying what people want to hear and not what is right....but thats just the way the whole media is now days. I think universal health care is much better than today's system but a free market health care would be the best. don't tell me that health care system in US as of now is free market...it would be an insult to free markets to say that.

rfesj, Of course health care in the US is not a free market. >>I think universal health care is much better than today’s system Can I count on your support for universal health care? That would be great. Single-payer, with price negotiations for everything. The works. The reason single-payer is having so much trouble is that people are off squabbling about little details, Which is exactly what the Republi-cons want to happen. Don't be fooled.

I think universal health care is much better than today’s system but a free market health care would be the best The only problem with universal health care is that its a one way. once we adopt it, its over..we can never come back to any other system. I would give free markets a chance. reform health care so that its a free market and then wait for results ( couple of years) .if that does not work, i am all for universal health care. The real roadblock is that making health care free market is not easy,...you need real balls to do that. Todays system is worst of all thats possible. its worst of both socialism and capitalism.

renter for ever_san jose says

Everything is relative. US has “free markets” relative to other nations. You cannot have absolute free market. Establishing free markets is not easy. You need right kind of judicial system and political system. Even though we crib, there is no country on the planet as good as US in that regard. We are not perfect but better than other countries. been there and seen it in other countries first hand.Our struggle is to make US better and not get enslaved to bad ideas (socialism) like other countries. Free markets are the “primary” reason for our success. We cannot have free markets without other freedoms. Our contitution was written for making us free and equal.Socializing health care is step back in free markets.We never gave free markets a chance in health care ..how sad. You can have the best resources ( south america, parts of africa..etc) but without a framework to establish free markets you can never shine like US. BTW, Free markets also mean that the participants in the free market are also free !

Story Once upon a time in a forest there was a huge uproar. It seems a new authority had come up and it started enforcing rules that meat eating animals can only eat certain number of other animals that mostly survived on grass. Lions and Tigers opposed the system completely. So far they have been enjoying fine deers and cows in unlimited number and suddenly this new rule had meant they will have to be contended with eating for survival. Without the rules so far, lions and tigers were having feast every weekends and obesity had become a major issue in the forest, not to mention the fact that population of animals surviving on the grass was coming down everyday. Lions, Tigers and Leopards clamored for free markets. It was the best system they said that ever existed. On the other hand deers, oxen and other grass eating animals hated free market, because free market meant that they were nothing but fodder for animals higher in the food chain. End of Story Moral of the stroy is that free market is like Jungle rule. What makes us humans and different from savages and animals is our capacity to reason and be compassionate to our fellow human beings. Socialism per se is not bad. Capitalism is not bad either. When "isms" are taken to extreme things become ugly. If you are such a huge proponent of free markets how do you explain 72 bank failures and the current mess that we are in now. How come free markets in financial world failed us completely. And who paid the price ? Not Vikrams Pandits, Henry Paulsons and Chuck princes of the world, but people on the main street. Were ordinary people in America responsible for the mess we got ourselves into. Now you would say well this happened because we did not have regulations. In a free market, regulations always come after the fact. Do you think this mess won't happen again. This is probably what they said during last bank failure era of 1907 too. Free market participants will always find ways to use others as fodder like in our forest story. Now I am not totally against free markets, but everything should be done in moderation. There are situations where free market is good and there are situations where socialism is good. Hey we just saw the fine example of socialist ideas used in saving wall street bankers. I bet likes of Sarah Palin did not find that evil at all.

How sad ...that lot of people don't understand free markets. free market does not just mean free "market". it also means (atleast by my definition) that market participants are free and EQUAL. there are no lions and dears in free market.everybody has equal oppurtunity and treated equal under law. BTW, health care in US in NOT free market.Don't look at flawed systems in US and blame free markets. Just for the record, "Without the rules so far, lions and tigers were having feast every weekends and obesity had become a major issue " This is theoritically impossible and never happens. ask any ecologist. the more the deers the more the lions and the lions compete for food. Only when somebody interferes with the eco system , like killing lions that excessive grazing turns the land barren and forrest become deserts. the financial meltdown that happened was not because of free markets ... the markets were not free at all. Free markets means everybody has equal oppurtunity and are treated fairly under law. when did that happen in the past bush era?...never. Free market doesn't mean a group of people cheating the rest ( housing bubble and financial bubble) You need rule of law and proper regulation for free markets to work. people manipulate the system to thier advantage under the guise of free markets ( when the govt is republican) and under the guise of regulation (when govt is democratic). free markets and regulation are just scape goats.greed and evil don't have party affiliations/color/creed.

renter for ever_san jose says

How sad …that lot of people don’t understand free markets. free market does not just mean free “market”. it also means (atleast by my definition) that market participants are free and EQUAL. there are no lions and dears in free market.everybody has equal oppurtunity and treated equal under law. BTW, health care in US in NOT free market.Don’t look at flawed systems in US and blame free markets. Just for the record, “Without the rules so far, lions and tigers were having feast every weekends and obesity had become a major issue ” This is theoritically impossible and never happens. ask any ecologist. the more the deers the more the lions and the lions compete for food. Only when somebody interferes with the eco system , like killing lions that excessive grazing turns the land barren and forrest become deserts.

Dude, You are so wrong on this. Health care cannot afford to have complete free market only. In your free market a begger hit by a car will have nowhere to go. You need to have money in a free market to go to a doctor. I am saying no problem in that. But we need a basic system where we can provide basic "free" (tax paid) health care to anyone who needs it. Be it the begger on the road. After all you don't want a begger on the road to die from excessive bleeding in your so called most successful society. If we can provide this basic common denominator, having free markets where henry paulson and steve jobs can get kidney transplant is fine.

>>The only problem with universal health care is that its a one way. once we adopt it, its over.. Reason: it is so much better that we'd never look back again.

You are so wrong on this. Health care cannot afford to have complete free market only. In your free market a begger hit by a car will have nowhere to go. You need to have money in a free market to go to a doctor. I am saying no problem in that. But we need a basic system where we can provide basic “free” (tax paid) health care to anyone who needs it. Be it the begger on the road. After all you don’t want a begger on the road to die from excessive bleeding in your so called most successful society. If we can provide this basic common denominator, having free markets where henry paulson and steve jobs can get kidney transplant is fine. We already have that..anybody can go to emergency and get treated. i was never against removing that. We are not animals and know how to take care of fellow beings. You have to understand though that its a necessary evil so we want to limit to as minimal as possible( welfare) because it breaks the system and should be used only when there is no other option. What about the rest of the stuff in heath care ( non emergency - non catastrophic cases) ? do you support free markets there ?

Also the definition of basic “free” (tax paid) health care is very vague. how about basic food, shelter and health care for everybody ...we are not animals..right? I think the way you determine that you need to help a fellow being is when something bad happens to them which is beyond thier control and they have no means to recover.Accidents and medical catastrophies are the only ones under that category.

renter for ever_san jose says

You are so wrong on this. Health care cannot afford to have complete free market only. In your free market a begger hit by a car will have nowhere to go. You need to have money in a free market to go to a doctor. I am saying no problem in that. But we need a basic system where we can provide basic “free” (tax paid) health care to anyone who needs it. Be it the begger on the road. After all you don’t want a begger on the road to die from excessive bleeding in your so called most successful society. If we can provide this basic common denominator, having free markets where henry paulson and steve jobs can get kidney transplant is fine. We already have that..anybody can go to emergency and get treated. What about the rest of the stuff in heath care ( non emergency - non catastrophic cases) ? do you support free markets there ?

"We already have that..anybody can go to emergency and get treated".... You can get treated but don't assume it is free. I just had first hand experience for this when I had to go to emergency just because of cough and fever which I happened to contract from a friend. My bill came out to be 2500 dollar...then they made me feel good by saying I will get 75% discount....so okay 500 bucks for prescribing few medicines....just when I was thinking it was not so bad after all ...I got another bill for doctor'ss services which was another 600 bucks...It seems previous bill was only for hospital..where I spent like 1 hour....so 1100 + 150 for drugs...for just regular cough and fever... You made this ludicrous statement without doing ample research...what made you think it is free... I am not for a govt only health care...I am for a mixed system where there is a common denominator health care and then there is also private health care where those who do not want to go with the basic system can choose to go if they can afford it... We pay thousands in taxes...at least we should have the option and security in the back of the mind that in case we lose our jobs and we fall sick with common stuff like fever we would be able to go and get treated with nominal charges like 50 to 100 bucks...That is not asking too much...Taxes are not just for building best defense system or bombing some countries across the world...they are also to provide basic services and I think basic health care comes in that... Tying health care to working for a company is another way to continue indentured labor system..... In a free country the freedom to quit your job should also be foremost .....

">> it’s called free market - which made US the most powerful nation economically… I think you’re misguided. The US is the most powerful nation for many entirely different reasons" You missed reason #5 called World War II where we bombed every other industrialized nation flat. Sort of like Goldman Sachs, get rid of the competition then make LOTS of money.

"You need rule of law and proper regulation for free markets to work. people manipulate the system to thier advantage under the guise of free markets ( when the govt is republican) and under the guise of regulation (when govt is democratic). free markets and regulation are just scape goats.greed and evil don’t have party affiliations/color/creed" This is contradictory. The second you publish the first regulation by definition you don't have a free market. Any regulation manipulates markets to someone's advantage. Who determines proper regulation? I'm all for free markets within the rule of law, but there is no such thing as a totally neutral free market system. All regulations are within the political realm and will always be influenced by someone's political agenda. So I keep hearing about this nebulous free market in health care from rentor. Care to step up to the plate and explain exactly how such a thing would work in the real world? Or give a real life example of a working free market health care system in the world today. If all you need to do is give health care over to a free market system then why hasn't it happened anywhere on earth that I am aware of?

I'm all for good cheer, but housing have gone up considerably less than the amount of government money thrown into the housing market. This ain't good and that's a fact.

warblah says

The Original Bankster says

knewbetter says

Money will be valueless before homes.

BINGO!

Salary Shmarlary. We will monetize the debt and there will be no money. Wipe it out, then start making our own plastic crap again. If you can make it 20 years then what does it matter. I don't think there's a rush to buy for the next 5-10 years, but if you'd rather have kids when you're 30 than when you're 40, there are some "good" deals out there. Most of the doom-n-gloom about housing comes from spoiled bitches who think they deserve more than they can afford. That's what started this: Spoiled bitches. And with all those inflated money, did you see a salary increase?

I did'nt read each and every comment ofcourse.Just too much BS for me.Ilove theway this and all govt. talk makes one thing happen.

You can have kids without buying a house and it was spoiled boys and wanting their toys that caused this so either keep your arguments balanced and civil or keep it to yourself.

So I take it that TPB supports the a plan for healthcare reform WITH a public option? And if Obama gets that passed he will celebrate the success of the president? OK, we'll check back in a few months.......

If all you need to do is give health care over to a free market system then why hasn’t it happened anywhere on earth that I am aware of? Its live and kicking in countries like india, thailand...etc nobody uses insurance in these countries. People just go to a doctor's visit and pay them cash. if somebody has a cold, they go to a cheap doctor and pay him $2. if its some serious illness they would go to skilled and popular specialist and pay him $10. The pricing pressure keeps the system very efficient and there is little wastage.Both the patients and hospitals feel the pricing pressure and they work to keep prices low.patients shop around for cheap priced.The hospitals compete for good doctors and always try to keep thier pricing competitive to attract patients.Same with testing labs ( X-rays, blood testing ..etc). For the GDP and wealth of the country , india is much more efficient in providing health care compared to US. If US was that efficient, i can gurantee that just the free market health care system would be enough for everybody ( even the small guy). Health care is very very affordable and the prices i have quoted are real ($2 and $10).Why do you think medical tourism is flourishing in some of these countries.what is so special in these countries that we cannot do? they buy equipment from US and thier doctors read the same books.. its just that the system in US is f**ked up. If you can fix these problems in US , you will have free market in health care : demand side : Current Insurance System making patients price insensitive and thus killing the most important aspect of a free market - pricing pressure ! supply side : regulation/red tape/licensing..etc limiting supply of doctors, medical schools, drug lobby..etc If you have any ideas to fix these, you can make health care free market.

From Price Waterhouse Coopers 2007 report on health care in India: http://www.pwc.com/en_GX/gx/healthcare/pdf/emerging-market-report-hc-in-india.pdf "When it comes to healthcare, there are two Indias: the country with that provides high-quality medical care to middle-class Indians and medical tourists, and the India in which the majority of the population lives—a country whose residents have limited or no access to quality care. Today only 25% of the Indian population has access to Western (allopathic) medicine, which is practiced mainly in urban areas, where two-thirds of India’s hospitals and health centers are located. Many of the rural poor must rely on alternative forms of treatment, such as ayurvedic medicine, unani and acupuncture." or "some communicable diseases once thought to be under control, such as dengue fever, viral hepatitis, tuberculosis, malaria, and pneumonia, have returned in force or have developed a stubborn resistance to drugs. This troubling trend can be attributed in part to substandard housing, inadequate water, sewage and waste management systems, a crumbling public health infrastructure, and increased air travel" or "While the rural poor are underserved, at least they can access the limited number of government-support medical facilities that are available to them. The urban poor fare even worse, because they cannot afford to visit the private facilities that thrive in India’s cities." or "Because so little insurance is available to the population of India, out of- pocket payments for medical care amounted to 98.4% of total health expenditures by households, as of the most recent (2001–02) census. Without insurance, the poor must resort to taking on debt or selling assets to meet the costs of hospital care. It is estimated that 20 million people in India fall below the poverty line each year because of indebtedness due to healthcare needs." Sorry to have to tell you this but Thailand has a public health care system. From Thailand Health Profile 2001 to 2004 published by the Thai government: "The MoPH is the core agency that implements the universal coverage of health care or 30-baht healthcare scheme, beginning on a pilot scale in six provinces in April 2001 and later expanded to another 15 provinces on 1 June 2001, finally to all provinces in January 2002. As a result, in FY 2003, 47.7 million Thai citizens or 74.7% of all 63.8 million people nationwide were covered by the universal healthcare scheme, leaving only 3.2 million people or 5% of total population without any health insurance coverage, while the rest had already been covered by other health insurance schemes" The Indian model certainly represents a bright future for America. After all India ranks 112th in health care according to the WHO. Since America ranks 37th (pretty bad since we rank #1 in costs) this is certainly something we should aspire to. Denying allopathic health care to 75% of the population would certainly cut costs in a big way. Good plan. No politician should have any trouble selling this to the American public. Want to take another stab at it?

Well, TPB, I have also noticed that your position is all over the map at different times. This is why I label you as being confused (and confusing).

interpretame says

nowhere but up from here says

BTW, another sign of our nation’s DWINDLING ability to garner RESPECT: after a FIFTEEN YEAR ABSENCE the Russkies have at least TWO “nucular” subs patrolling off our West Coast.

Must have something to do with Putin taking his shirt off…..

No comrade, I think it’s most probably related to the fact that WE’RE BROKE, WEAK & STUPID.

Speak for yourself.

chrisborden says

I will never understand why some of you think that “owning” a house somehow makes you better than those of us who don’t play the debt game. Who cares what you think your house is worth? Does that make you somehow better or deserving of some kind of praise? I don’t care about your obsession with material “wealth.” You are spiritually bankrupt if you base your entire self worth on the supposed “value” of your home or you believe that somehow life is not worth living unless you can prove to everyone how “rich” you are, even if inside you know you are bankrupt. You are kidding yourself if you think that debt is good and that having a house is the ticket to pure happiness. It is far from it.

There are billions of poor people who are morally and spiritually bankrupt. The sum total of your net worth does not make any difference when it comes to spiritual or moral questions.

House is investment of lender not you house norminal owner who is debtor.

bob2356 says

While the rural poor are underserved, at least they can access the limited number of government-support medical facilities that are available to them. The urban poor fare even worse, because they cannot afford to visit the private facilities that thrive in India’s cities.

You sit here and read about India in Pricewaterhousepoopers and think you know everything. The above is blatantly false. What do you think India is run by some Bush kind of idiot who has outlawed government-support medical facilities in Cities ? Does it even make sense ? Govt run medical facilities exist at both rural and urban level. Search for AIMS new Delhi and then figure out if new delhi comes under urban or rural area ? I hope you can figure out at least that ? There must be at least 10 govt hospitals in a typical metro in India. Agreed quality of care will be far worse than a private run hospitals, but at least it is there. Some health care is better no health care ? Even a fool will not argue with it ? Would you ?

The Original Bankster says

bob2356 says

When it comes to healthcare, there are two Indias: the country with that provides high-quality medical care to middle-class Indians and medical tourists, and the India in which the majority of the population lives—a country whose residents have limited or no access to quality care.

thats true for more than just healthcare. For instance, the technology companies operate in what is called a SEZ ( Special Economic Zone ). They have a completely different tax schedule, basically a country within a country. Those who are not involved with the SEZ basically live in an entirely different political body, a much poorer, much more poverty stricken political body.

Again all lies...SEZ are there to give favorable tax treatment to some industries to promote them. It is not free market, but then India is a mixed economy. Some aspects are free market, while others are socialist. They did not have a banking system collapse that US just went through. There are 2 sides to every story. So yeah when you go to a typical nationalized bank in India you see the employees don't give much shit to the customer...that is wrong...In a private system you get at least fake smiles when the person behind the counter sees a customer with cash...Try arguing this lack of a good customer service to a bank employee in India, he or she will immediately point to bank failures in US...So what is better: losing your money entirely or just dealing with few rude bank employees ? :-) Go figure and then post your answer here. Regarding your comment regarding SEZs having a separate political structure ..it is so full of crap ...that it is not even worth commenting.... Also do not assume that every software company in India is in SEZ (special economic zone), some are outside of it too...Even china has SEZ....and they also have some red communist willing to shoot anyone who does not agree with their point of view...At least India has a functioning democracy...

Comparing Indian health care and US health care is a waste of time....India has a long way to go before it can catch up to the west in terms of per capita income etc..In India rich and the middle class just like USA can get the best care health care by going to private doctors, except that there is is no concept of health insurance. You pay from your pocket. And when your pocket is empty you go to the nearest govt hospital. For a rural patient that govt hospital may be very far away sometimes...In US that "govt hospital" does not exist....if you are a poor inner city ghetto patient you probably have to go to emergency room ...and ignore the bill when it is sent to you ? Is there any other way ? Also In India when people die in Hospitals and even when it may be because of some malpractice, people usually do not sue etc...Hindu society has been in general quite fatalistic...If you happened to die in a hospital it is probably because of your bad Karma...Hope for better luck in the next life rather that trying to find a medical malpractice lawyer :-) Bottom line India and USA are very different societies and cultures. Only commonality is democratic system. So don't waste your time here pointing India's bad health care. Better focus on fixing US health care.

I gave india just to illustrate one thing : efficiency in private health care system. If you just look at the private health care system in india, its much more "efficient" than US...period. Don't compare a poor developing country to a developed rich country in absolute terms. BTW, is this the same price water coopers which was involved in the biggest ponzi scheme in india ( satyam scandal) ?. I have stopped reading a while back, these fake reports that these yuppies write to impress thier bosses. Just because its in fine print in glossy paper from price water cooper does not make it true. These are the same guys who wrote reports for the derivative trading.anyway..i am from india and i know that health care is better than US for a common man. If US was as poor as india , with the current health care system, 90% of people would die outside the emergency rooms waiting.

interpretame says

“More Good News….” I think we’re quickly approaching the point where the only ‘Good News’ left would be to read that Air Force One went down in flames with the President, ViceP & Treasury Secretary aboard. Of course if it crashed & burned right onto Goldman Sach’s main corporate offices, then it would be GREAT NEWS!!

What is all with the presidential bashing. This problem started way before him. Although I do not agree with some of his plans, I am happy we actually have a person who is trying to fix things instead of pretending that nothing is wrong. I am against universal healthcare, but I like the fact that for once we have someone who has the guts to take on the problem.

wrong forum>?

Some Guy >Because there are die-hard republicans who are so bent on blaming the democrats for EVERYTHING, that >they completely ignore reality. They have already forgotten that the republicans had control of the White >House AND Congress, and far from solving any problems, they in fact CREATED the problems we are >currently stuck with. Their myopia is so complete that they can’t even remember that we had a housing >market crash and a failing economy before Obama even got into office. They forget that Goldman Sachs >was bailed out under Bush’s watch. So what exactly are you saying here? It is ok for Obama to make bigger mistakes than the previous guy? Our illegal president is pawned off to us like he is a genus. I can't make up my mind on who to laugh at, him or us? BTW, I can't find any die hard repulicans anymore. Here is reality some guy... BOTH republicans and democraps made this entire mess. The democraps happen to be the ones running the show right now. So hell yes, they get the blame.