patrick.net

Well said.

Clarence 13X says

This is why I never debate with Kevin, too many fact based statements….I’d rather watch and learn…:)

I didn't go back to see that he wrote all of that until today. I didn't even know I was debating him! I just thought I was commenting about what I thought. He put a good bit of thought and effort into all of that. You gotta appreciate that.

SubOink says

It sounds to me that klarek is the one that didn’t do his homework when he bought a home, after all, he is the one that is no longer a homeowner. It explains the bitterness.

I sold for a profit and rented while the market tanked. People like you were telling me that I was giving up something, the joy of ownership and a bribe from the IRS (for being a good little debt prisoner), and that it was stupid.

You can only list burdens and liabilities as reasons that owning is a good thing, shows what you guys actually know. Part of new homeowner euphoria is that kind of condescending snobbery where you view renters as sub-human, or less than owners. Hence the negative connotation with "is no longer a homeowner", like I failed at being awesome. I have a much better understanding of what home ownership means than you, and am 1-0 so far. Talk to me when you sell for a profit.

klarek says

That was a dodge. Do you feel the joy and responsibility of owning a car when you pay for a new transmission?

So yard work is another reason to own? You guys make home ownership sound worse than it is. “But I can pull weeds! But I can spend $2000 to replace the HVAC!”

You’re living up to the stereotype of naive homeowners getting high off of the euphoric farts your agent let out at the closing table as he earned his commission check off of another naive client.

How was that a dodge? Like most things in life, there are good aspects and bad. I like the freedom of my own car, but I don't like having to pay for fixing the transmission. I traded cost for freedom, in that example. Why is that concept escaping you? What in life comes with absolutely no downside? If you dwell on the negative, everything is terrible.

Actually our agent told us very little, and what he did tell us, we ignored. Our current pleasure with our house comes from how we feel each and every day. We never even think about the annoying process of buying the house. I don't know what happened to you, but your negativity is just overwhelming. I really don't see how or why you get out of bed each morning.

You know what Klarek, go ahead and be a curmudgeon and chicken little the rest of your life. I'm going to enjoy mine instead.

klarek says

You were using it as a reason that it’s better than renting, to not have somebody else tend to and pay for the repairs. I asked what the benefit is in that aspect, and now you’re saying it’s a worthwhile trade-off. If that’s not a dodge, then it’s an admission that you don’t really know why renting is better than owning, and pointing out any difference you can to substitute for not having a thoughtful opinion.

I never said having to pay for repairs was a reason why buying is better than renting. I said the freedom to do what you want is a reason why buying better than renting. There is a difference. You keep dwelling on one small aspect that comes with that freedom. Your parlor tricks of trying to say I said something I didn't and then claiming I'm dodging what you made up are pathetic.

klarek says

Your hyperbole suggests that I have struck a nerve. Don’t like the truth much, do you?

Ummm...go look up hyperbole. You cite eminent domain as a reason why you could lose the house. Thus, chicken little is an apt description. You dwell on the negative of everything related to owning. Curmudgeon is a perfect fit. No hyperbole here.

It took you all that to say a basic catch phrase, "nothing in life is guaranteed." Way to go!

bubblesitter says

I still have to see a 0.00001% hike in my rent this year. LOL.

Same. But that wasn't the point of him posting it, it was to distract from having just been nailed for his bullshit. S.O.P., he just changes the subject.

klarek says

bubblesitter says

I still have to see a 0.00001% hike in my rent this year. LOL.

Same. But that wasn’t the point of him posting it, it was to distract from having just been nailed for his bullshit. S.O.P., he just changes the subject.

Nothing new there...

Thank you guys for posting first hand experiences and sharing the knowledge. I have been browsing this site for a while but haven't posted. I am thinking about buying a rental property in Antioch. I see a large number of SFH for rent in the area, do you see rents going down by 20% before rising? Is it easy to rent out in current market? I am a first time buyer any recommendation of a buyer's agent in the area will be much appreciated?

klarek says

You’re at the mercy of the IRS, your municipality and tax collection office, your HOA, and not least of all your mortgage company which can take your house from you for missed payments just like my landlord can kick me out of mine.

So, as long as you don't miss payments, the mortgage company CANNOT kick you out. You really don't see the difference between this and a 1 year lease? Not to mention the fact that if the landlord sells or is foreclosed on, depending on the local laws, you could be kicked out sooner than 1 year. You really don't see how you, as a buyer, control whether you stay in the house or not, aside from your stupid point about eminent domain, but as a renter, there are plenty of likely events that could cause you to have to move in a short period of time?

F-R-E-E-D-O-M

Gotta love how the vested interest wrap themself in the term... I guess at what ever cost,
you are paying for Freedom, so Pay Up... Freedom isnt cheap.. They come up with the craziest marketing crap...

We saw this oh too many times on chat boards during the bubble...
I guess not many had this so called freedom when they overbid, overpaid, and couldnt
make the montly payment and went into foreclosure... I call it way over-marketing...

You can do whatever you want when you own, but there is no sense overpaying
for hype so a vested group can benefit at your cost.

SubOink says

f you are so confident that prices will fall 20% - then put your money where your mouth is and short the appropriate stocks that would reflect such a drop. You can probably short the entire index because if prices were to fall 20%, then none of us will have a job anymore and things will be so bad that you will not buy a house even then. Be careful what you wish for. YOU won’t make out any better in this than anybody else if such a scenario was to happen because that money you are putting in the bank right now will be WORTHLESS. At least I have a house, an asset with actual value because you have to live somewhere.

I don't gamble with my money.

thomas.wong1986 says

I guess not many had this so called freedom when they overbid, overpaid, and couldnt
make the montly payment and went into foreclosure… I call it way over-marketing…

Then you shouldn't have bought a house - when idiots buy houses that they can't afford, its not proof for buying sucks vs renting - Obviously, you gotta be able to afford it.

The whole point here is, that it is now more affordable than it has been in a long time but that doesn't mean everybody can buy a house. Everybody can not have a ferrari and a house and a private jet. That's just how it is and always will be.

Just because I can't buy a ferrari does not mean prices on ferrari's are coming down 30%.

thomas.wong1986 says

You can do whatever you want when you own, but there is no sense overpaying
for hype so a vested group can benefit at your cost.

What a novel thought...kinda of like how I said it above in this very thread.

ch_tah says

I happen to agree with suboink that being able to handle issues yourself is a good thing. Yes, it stinks that you are the one on the hook for the expenses, but the ability to make these decisions is a positive. It’s not enough of a positive to go overpay by $100k, but it is one of the benefits of owning.

ch_tah says

thomas.wong1986 says

You can do whatever you want when you own, but there is no sense overpaying
for hype so a vested group can benefit at your cost.

When is overpaying ever a good thing? We overpay for gas EVERY day, we overpay for water EVERY day...the list is long.

Nobody says...go and buy a house and make sure you overpay for it. Look around your neighborhood, if you find something you like, make an offer, something that YOU think it would be worth it to you. If you get it, great, if somebody else thinks its worth more to them and they offer more, then they will get it. Just because you can't afford a mansion, does not mean $1million for a specific house is too much. In my opinion a house is worth as much as somebody else is willing to pay for it. That's it. Not what zillow says or what the realtor says or what the sellers say...but if you find yourself in the position of loosing every offer you put out, then maybe you are just a cheapskate who is not willing to pay up what something is worth to others and so you will never buy a house. Maybe you have to make more money or move to a different, cheaper location. There is a cover for every pot.

But it does not mean that the market needs to crash because of it.

SubOink says

Just because I can’t buy a ferrari does not mean prices on ferrari’s are coming down 30%.

Could you afford a Ferrari ten years ago?

SubOink says

Nobody says…go and buy a house and make sure you overpay for it.

Correct. It takes collective ignorance to bid the price up, for reasons that are baseless.

klarek says

SubOink says

Just because I can’t buy a ferrari does not mean prices on ferrari’s are coming down 30%.

Could you afford a Ferrari ten years ago?
SubOink says

Nobody says…go and buy a house and make sure you overpay for it.

Correct. It takes collective ignorance to bid the price up, for reasons that are baseless.

Are you a lawyer? You seem to ignore what somebody's point is.

No, I could not afford a ferrari 10 years ago, and I also could not afford a house 10 years ago...now, I can, so I bought one. Your Point?

klarek says

Your logic would be no different during the housing bubble. “I couldn’t afford a $200k house, but now I can afford a $600k house.”

Huh?

No, its a little different - I couldn't afford a 550k house...then the 550k house became a 800k house...then the 800k house became a 550k house again...10 years after..and now I can afford it and my payment is less than rent :)

Pretty simple? I am sure you find a way to twist that around too...

SubOink says

The whole point here is, that it is now more affordable than it has been in a long time but that doesn’t mean everybody can buy a house.

LOL! depends what your matrix on affordability is. The Cali Asses of Realtors was using med incomes to med prices using 30 yr fixed rates for decades. Once the affordability went 5-6% back in 2004-2005 they switched to a new affordability matrix which includes med incomes to "starter homes" using ARM only loans. No definition on what a "starter home " is and dropped the whole 30 year fixed. And presto it went to 25% overnight. And after much denial of a bubble and over hype that homes were indeed affordable based on new numbers, the bubble popped...

Affordibilty? Sure! And people today are still using the highly inaccurate affordibilty matrix from the CAR. WoW !

klarek says

Your logic would be no different during the housing bubble. “I couldn’t afford a $200k house, but now I can afford a $600k house.”

More accurate to say its the... "same house priced at $600K today".

No changes no improvements just the same paint on the same house plus 10 years later.

SubOink says

No, its a little different - I couldn’t afford a 550k house…then the 550k house became a 800k house…then the 800k house became a 550k house again…10 years after..and now I can afford it and my payment is less than rent :)

Pretty simple? I am sure you find a way to twist that around too…

The $350k house became a $1m house. Now it's a $550k house. Still overpriced, but you think it's a deal since that's what it sold for at some arbitrary point in the past.

If you can afford now what you couldn't then, it's because you earn a lot more. Your income now adjusted for dollars back then could more easily afford the equivalent house at that time. Do the math on household income in your area vs prices, adjust for interest rates, compare it to 10 and 15 years ago. Do the numbers add up?

This is something that should be done before you buy, but most people don't, despite the lessons of the bubble.

SubOink says

No, its a little different - I couldn’t afford a 550k house…then the 550k house became a 800k house…then the 800k house became a 550k house again…10 years after..and now I can afford it and my payment is less than rent

Or more like 250K home in 1997 became a 500K home in 2000 and than a 800K home in 2005... But now its just a $600K home so its more affordable...
But what do you call the gap between $250K to 600K ?
More bubbles!! But only in the Bay Area.

Gosh.. im so lucky to have bought my Los Gatos crip back in 92 and
certainly didnt even pay 300K for it.

thomas.wong1986 says

SubOink says

No, its a little different - I couldn’t afford a 550k house…then the 550k house became a 800k house…then the 800k house became a 550k house again…10 years after..and now I can afford it and my payment is less than rent

Or more like 250K home in 1997 became a 500K home in 2000 and than a 800K home in 2005… But now its just a $600K home so its more affordable…

But what do you call the gap between $250K to 600K ?

More bubbles!! But only in the Bay Area.

Encino is still a bubble very much too. We have those exact homes going for 500k still, right next door to a 250k home.

We are still a few years away from housing market leveling off to reality.

SubOink says

Bulls have their set of graphs and bears have their opposing ones - Never ending battle

And CEOs who sign the payroll check like ex Sun CEO have their own.

"there are lots of technical engineers (other regions of the world) who are willing to work at a more reasonable salary because they don't have to spend $3.5 million on a home and pay half of it to taxes."

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704422204576130520662465078.html

Oh right, you have rentals in concord. forgot thought you lived there. this helps me understand your posts more.
thanks for responding. ;-)

ChrisLA says

I think everyone would be well served trying to get away from the “It’s priced high so it’s a bubble” nonsense.

It wasn’t true before the bubble, and it’s not true after the bubble.

totally agree. it's starting to sound like kids on the school yard the logic has been lost.
i bet there is 100-300k income seperating some posters in the same thread.

klarek says

Math is for faggots and nerds, right?

hey broa chill on the words

Katy Perry says

klarek says

Math is for faggots and nerds, right?

hey broa chill on the words

High school stereotypes. The kid that breaks out the math gets picked on for being those derogatory terms. Dumbass jocks that can't add 1 and 1 remind people that there was supposed to be no math.

Sarcasm. Cmon.

klarek says

klarek says

Math is for faggots and nerds, right?

hey broa chill on the words

High school stereotypes. The kid that breaks out the math gets picked on for being those derogatory terms. Dumbass jocks that can’t add 1 and 1 remind people that there was supposed to be no math.

Sarcasm. Cmon.

I always miss it in the posts for some reason Ha ha!

Please use the "flag" link above any comment that is directly insulting other users. I will delete those comments, and perhaps the person doing the insulting.

If someone feels they have to insult the user rather than argue with the ideas, that betrays a definite weakness in their position.

klarek says

SubOink says

I don’t care about matrixes or realtors, I am talking about my own affordability. Simply, what can I afford or not. Period. You guys are so hung up on matrixes, graphs and all that BS. No Matter what point you want to prove you can always find some graph to back it up.

Math is for faggots and nerds, right?

Wow, showing some true colors there, eh?

Well, anyways. If you knew anything about statistics than you knew that anything can be put together to prove a certain point. => Bulls have their math , and bears have their version. There is an element of interpretation, which is not a precise science otherwise you could predict the stockmarket for us. If it was that precise and just math, then we wouldn't have anything to argue about, would we? Do we have to argue that 1+1=2? No, I do hope that you will agree with me on that - then again, I am not sure. You will probably post something about how 1+1=2 is really not true and nothing but hype.

Once again, you didn't get the point. Very amusing! As long as its only people like you thinking that the market will crash into the grounds - we have nothing to worry about :)

Clarence 13X says

Why should I be required to give back

Yeah, giving back is for chumps. Real men take and give back nothing.

MarkInSF says

Clarence 13X says

Why should I be required to give back

Yeah, giving back is for chumps. Real men take and give back nothing.

I am working hard to be polite on this one, but I have 5 fingers and one of them is reserved for you sheeple and the Feds. You say that as if my having given 28% of my salary over a 30 year period is not enough. Not only 28% but an additional 8% at the register plus parking and driving violation fees that fund the state.

So, now, after I have paid all that you want to take an additional 28% of what I have left over from my death too?

SubOink says

Wow, showing some true colors there, eh?

I was being sarcastic. You hate math, I got it. You don't want it to be applied to finance? That's absurd. What are we supposed to talk about when it comes to housing, the type of drapes you're picking out?

Your aversion to math, charts, etc. is like the dunce in school who picked on the "nerds" because they could solve simple equations. The numbers behind real estate isn't tricky at all.

klarek says

SubOink says

Wow, showing some true colors there, eh?

I was being sarcastic. You hate math, I got it. You don’t want it to be applied to finance? That’s absurd. What are we supposed to talk about when it comes to housing, the type of drapes you’re picking out?
Your aversion to math, charts, etc. is like the dunce in school who picked on the “nerds” because they could solve simple equations. The numbers behind real estate isn’t tricky at all.

LOL! There you go again - Where do I say that I hate math?? Quite, the opposite. What I AM saying is, do your own practical math, your own specific sample and don't listen to a realtors math or a patrick.net perma renters math. Graphs do not incorporate your own individual situation. They are global, general and can be meaningless (no, I am not saying I hate math) to your own example.

Klarek, I think you are confusing "math" with "meth" :)

Mr.Fantastic says

You guys are way too passionate about houses.

SubOink, do you enjoy your house, or spend all day inside arguing about what a great purchase it was on Patrick.net?

Haha. Well..Surprise! its a house crash forum, isn't it? I could also say, just go back to your rental, if you're so happy, why argue about it. But you are right. We shouldn't argue about it anyways. It should be an exchange of information but that's not possible here because guys like klarek are so bitter at anybody that buys a house that he'll turn it into an argument, forgetting that we all really want the same - a nice home to live in and watch our kids grow up. We are just not agreeing on the price :)

SubOink says

LOL! There you go again - Where do I say that I hate math?? Quite, the opposite. What I AM saying is, do your own practical math, your own specific sample and don’t listen to a realtors math or a patrick.net perma renters math. Graphs do not incorporate your own individual situation. They are global, general and can be meaningless (no, I am not saying I hate math) to your own example.

I want to understand what I'm paying $400k for. I'm not going to flippantly go with gut instincts and emotions like way too many people do.

My individual situation is not complicated. I know what non-quantitative factors appeal to me and which don't.

SubOink says

I could also say, just go back to your rental, if you’re so happy, why argue about it. But you are right. We shouldn’t argue about it anyways. It should be an exchange of information but that’s not possible here because guys like klarek are so bitter at anybody that buys a house that he’ll turn it into an argument, forgetting that we all really want the same - a nice home to live in and watch our kids grow up. We are just not agreeing on the price

Funny that despite your constant allegations, nobody is arguing against owning. You and a couple of other insecure owners were arguing against renting, and taking offense from people like me who point out that there are reasons to not buy a house, particularly now, and the tradeoffs between renting and owning. The benefits aren't stacked on one side.

Mr.Fantastic says

I mean seriously, look at all your effort and wasted time trying to convince people home ownership is a great thing. You could be easily mistaken for a NAR shill.

It was so over the top, I accused him of being Lawrence Yun's alt. It's pretty easy to tell when somebody has been whiffing NAr farts, fed propaganda, and believing every bit of it. My RE license instructor made a long point about doing this, feeding on the emotion so that the prey just years to have "their" house and

Prices continue to correct.. downwards.

http://www.dqnews.com/Articles/2011/News/California/Bay-Area/RRBay110317.aspx

Sales Volume Median Price
All homes Feb-10 Feb-11 %Chng
Alameda $312,000 -6.4%
Contra Costa $243,000 -4.9%
Marin $497,500 -19.1%
Napa $324,000 1.3%
Santa Clara $435,000 -5.4%
San Francisco $589,000 -6.1%
San Mateo $516,500 -6.8%
Solano $180,000 -13.7%
Sonoma $295,500 -4.7%
Bay Area $337,250 -4.7%

Mr.Fantastic says

What’s the point?

If SubOink, ch_tah, and other people who recently purchased their homes think it was a good purchase, that should be it, end of story. Enjoy the house and ride off into the sunset.

The point should be to discuss both sides, so that other readers can get ying and yang. After all, why have a forum at all?

The fact is, that I have been on this crash site as a reader (and a few posts) for 5-6 years...when I was an angry renter. But there was no real point of chiming in on the negativity, as there is plenty of that here. When I realized that it was time for me to buy, I came back here to start adding a little bit of the other perspective as its just doom and gloom up in here. Simply, because that's my own experience. That's it. Do what you want. But we are just here...talking, right? Exchanging thoughts, ideas.

But you guys are funny -" if you're not a negative, gloom and doomer - please, take your positivity and get out of this forum" - Seems like y'all are just negative for the sake of it. Stick your head in the sand and hate the world.

The whole "spending time because you feel bad" is a very moot point. If I felt bad, I'd come in here and say "Guys!! Do NOT buy a house, I just did it and it sucks...I wish I could get out and but I can't yadda yadda..."

Do you think that I think because I post something on a forum, the housing market will go up - --> my house will go up in value?? Haha,..well I wish I had that much power but not even Jim Cramer can do that.