patrick.net

Ironman says

The "Russian" hack was NOT from the Russians, WikiLeaks even said so..

Wikileaks said that they didn't get the info straight from the Russians. The CIA was not claiming that they did either. The CIA was claiming connections between Russians and the perps. Plus, Wikileaks is not neutral here. Assange had a huge personal stake in this election.

Credit Card Debt (Record High): 1.2 trillion USD

Auto Loans (Record High): 1.2 trillion USD

Student Loan Debt (Record High): 1.4 trillion USD

Mortgage Debt (4-Year Highs): 8.87 trillion USD

Medical debt (not sure of number but positive debt and amount in delinquency at all-time record highs, too).

Charge (it) Recovery!

joeyjojojunior says

But they have a long history of leaking information to reporters.

Yes - when they want to interfere with US Politics and get what they want.

Is the CIA interested in peace with Russia? Think about the entire outfit. At 50-55, your typical analyst/hacker/manager wants to go to work for C3 or Booz Allen Hamilton and make twice the money. The more warmongering there is, the more private contractor opportunities there are.

As for retired CIA, they often have different opinions uncolored by career goals:
"CIA Veterans Urge Caution on Leaks Saying Russia's Putin Tried to Get Trump Elected
http://www.newsweek.com/cia-trump-putin-2016-election-hacks-wikileaks-clinton-spies-intelligence-iraq-530666

Forget auto loans, student loan, mortgage & medical debt for a second.

Think about this - If Americans lost the ability to use their credit cards, making minimum monthly payments, there'd literally be nationwide riots in the streets within 7-10 days, max.

I did not even touch upon food stamps/EBT, other forms of welfare, payday and "advance" loans, etc.

Just credit cards. That's how precarious a likely 76% of the American Population is living (worse than paycheck to paycheck; the same 76% that could not come up with $1,400 in cash in the event of a sudden emergency expense, without borrowing from family or friends).

What a world we live in when Democrats, in the past skeptical of politicized leaks from the CIA, are now embracing any unverifiable statement made by an unidentified alleged CIA agent.

Just remember: Lindsay Graham and John McCain never saw a conflict they didn't like.

there are people even on this site who say things like "saving is taking food out of others mouths"

"What a world we live in when Democrats, in the past skeptical of politicized leaks from the CIA, are now embracing any unverifiable statement made by an unidentified alleged CIA agent.
Just remember: Lindsay Graham and John McCain never saw a conflict they didn't like."

See, here's the difference. Dems are calling for an investigation and for the actual facts to come out. Nobody on the Dem side is calling for an invasion of Russia.

Dems want truth and facts. Conservatives are opposed to an investigation and are opposed to the actual facts coming out.

The real question is--why would ANYONE not want to know the truth? Who would be opposed to finding out what actually happened? And why?

Ironman says

Except Wikileaks has been 100% RIGHT

Where's your proof. Why do you have such lax standards for ideas you agree with.Ironman says

"Could have" is NOT the same as "did".

Now, you are making up more shit getting farther and farther away from the original point. Just go back to the WaPo article and find out what was wrong. That should be the starting point for any thread like this, unless you are just trying to deceive people. I see that your OP was just text from a poorly written article, so I apologize for attributing that dishonest drivel to you.

YesYNot says

Where's your proof. Why do you have such lax standards for ideas you agree with

Where's YOUR proof? Anonymous statements made by alleged CIA agents aren't proof.

The WaPo has been running Fake News this whole election and post-election. Bezos doesn't care how many lies he spreads, so long as he keeps Trump distracted from reforming Corporate Inversions and especially Tariffs. Amazon was built on tax dodging.

If you live in Utah, don't buy from Amazon, they've corrupted the state government to let them keep 20% of the sales tax. Deal? Try owning a pizzeria in Salt Lake City and refusing to collect Sales Tax, then make a "deal" with the city/state that you'll finally collect it, but keep 20% for yourself. Rule of Law, anybody?

"Yet, WaPo and the Dems are running with UNVERIFIED information about a "possible" hack...Got ANY verifiable FACTS??"

How do you know it's not verified?

In any event--that's the point. Let's get an investigation and see if the WAPO is wrong. Surely you agree with that, right?

"The WaPo has been running Fake News this whole election and post-election. Bezos doesn't care how many lies he spreads, so long as he keeps Trump distracted from reforming Corporate Inversions and especially Tariffs. Amazon was built on tax dodging."

Come on Thunder. Bullshit. Do NOT, do NOT, do NOT call the WAPO fake news. If you want to claim bias, fine. Bias is NOT fake news.

I can't believe smart people can't tell the difference between a slight bias and a completely fabricated fairy tale.

"But in the mean time, let's spread FAKE, unverified stories...Great plan you Dems have!!"

Who says it wasn't verified?? And it is not FAKE. You are the one playing that game.

joeyjojojunior says

Come on Thunder. Bullshit. Do NOT, do NOT, do NOT call the WAPO fake news. If you want to claim bias, fine. Bias is NOT fake news.

WaPo ran fake news. Check my first post in this thread. It ran a piece by Timburg on PropOrNot, claiming it was run by "non-partisan" experts (ie MIC-affiliated organization employees), and it included a list of websites from Drudge Report to Naked Capitalism, asserting they were Russian Outfits.

Not a single individual at PropOrNot was named.

This story was rejected by almost every other media outlet as having no credibility and could not be vetted for veracity. The WaPo refuses to run a retraction, it thinks an editor's note about 'we don't claim PropOrNot has veracity" is enough.

Yves Smith is planning on suing them. Then they'll retract.

So, one (maybe) story constitutes:

"WaPo has been running Fake News this whole election and post-election"

Again I call bullshit. Don't equate WAPO with the crap sites that Ironman or TPP posts on here with completely made up fairy tales designed solely to fool idiots into forwarding it to other idiots.

It's all Obama's fault!!!

I just gave you an example of Fake News.

The organization and it's claims they ran an entire piece on, while praising it's members, smeared a range of websites as Russian Propaganda:

The group’s list of Russian disinformation outlets includes WikiLeaks and the Drudge Report, as well as Clinton-critical left-wing websites such as Truthout, Black Agenda Report, Truthdig, and Naked Capitalism, as well as libertarian venues such as Antiwar.com and the Ron Paul Institute.

They identified no member of this shady organization. Instead, they praised these members as "Experts, Independent, Non-Partisan" in order to play up it's credibility.

The PropOrNot website claims "Allies" such as Bellingcat, who say they never heard of them prior to the article being published. The Group's twitter dates back to August.

This is clearly a political smear-group with heavy secrecy disguised as some Public Watchdog.

"I just gave you an example of Fake News"

So one example = the whole election and post election?? You have a very loose sense of time.

They got a story wrong. It's still not fake news and you know it.

anonymous says

This is clearly a political smear-group with heavy secrecy disguised as some Public Watchdog. Is this for the benefit of a given political party or something else ? Almost starting to look like a major diversion to keep the citizens at each other's throats amongst other things while keeping attention away from something else for reasons that may or may not come to light.

Of interest: Matt Taibbi's take on Prop Or Not
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/features/washington-post-blacklist-story-is-shameful-disgusting-w452543

Timburg apparently did NOT call a single organization claimed to be an "Ally" or "Agent" by Propornot to check with them, including groups Propornot itself claimed to be allied with. The piece is horrendous, as Taibbi says it's not even up to the level of HS Journalism.

There IS evidence for gods sake. I posted it yesterday.

http://observer.com/2016/10/bloomberg-crowdstrike-fidelis-dnc-hack/

That's it, huh? You realize that Redundancy is not a Russian exclusive technique. Consistent with the Russian Workday? From Eastern Europe to Turkey to India to China are also consistent with the Russian Workday. Fidelis is a private security company - are they working for free- nah, just trying to gin up business.

Basically, there's nothing here. This is less evidence than there is for most conspiracies.

"Everybody knows the Masons believe in redundancy. Timestamps are consistent with the Motherlodge of the Grand Poobah 69th Degree Master in Scotland... So sophisticated it must be done by sophisticated, networked people, and everybody knows the Masons are generally well-educated and have extensive networks"

You realize the DNC systems and Podesta's email and Spreadsheet Access were "protected" by passwords like "Obama08" and "pa$$word" - shit that any Script Kiddie could easily crack by brute force, if not flat out guessing. They're hardly difficult to guess.

ALSO, the DNC and Clinton Campaign themselves refused to cooperate with the FBI when it offered to check their security. They even denied any breach at first!
http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/politics/democratic-convention-dnc-emails-russia/
http://www.redstate.com/california_yankee/2016/07/30/hillarys-lackadaisical-approach-cybersecurity-dogs-campaign/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jul/28/fbi-warned-hillary-clinton-campaign-it-had-been-ha/

We should also mention here that the NSA hacked the entire German government right up into Merkel's Cell and PM Office Phone.

"Stop Hacking! But It's okay when we do it to our own allies."

"That's it, huh?"

NO, that's not it. That's the start. I'd like to see everything which is why I think there should be an investigation and all results should be made public.

The question is--why do you not want to see an investigation? What are you hiding??

I'll repeat it again... A LEAK is NOT a HACK... Idiot Podesta was 100% at fault.
Why aren't you discussing the CONTENT of those emails and how the campaign undermined Sanders??

Do you think a phishing email is not a hack? Do you know what a phishing email is?

We should also mention here that the NSA hacked the entire German government right up into Merkel's Cell and PM Office Phone.
"Stop Hacking! But It's okay when we do it to our own allies."

I'm sorry--who is saying "Stop Hacking!" exactly?

Please don't try to change the subject again. What people are saying is--did Russia purposely alter the outcome of the US election? And let's investigate and find out.

joeyjojojunior says

NO, that's not it. That's the start. I'd like to see everything which is why I think there should be an investigation and all results should be made public.

There's nothing there.

It's all just assertion "Well, this had a timestamp that conforms with the workday in Vladivostok"

Or the workday in Shanghai or Beijing.

Imagine a Prosecutor goes to a judge : "We want a warrant for Joe Schmoe, because we see tweets involving criminal behavior during 9-5, and Joe Schmoe's workday is around 9-5"
Judge "That's it?"
Prosecutor: "Yep."
Judge "No physical evidence, no witness?"
Prosecutor: "Nope. Oh, we did see some multiple tweets with the same text, and we think Mr. Schmoe believes in redundancy"
Judge "Get the fuck out of here."

No, there's something there.. And there's a lot more that isn't public. Which is why we need an investigation to find out what else is there.

Why not find out? What's the harm in the investigation? If there's nothing there, like you claim, then Trump will come out of it looking smarter than ever. He should be welcoming it.

Hell--we had like 8 investigations into Benghazi. We can't find the time for one into a possible foreign state interference in our election?

I don't carry balances, but my total available credit has ballooned. It's like the roaring 90's again, I wonder if we will see a rise in strategic bankruptcies

Thunderlips is Tovbot2 says

, they've corrupted the state government to let them keep 20% of the sales tax. Deal?

Why are you against a sweetheart deal here, but all for Trump's Carrier sweetheart deal where the company gets to avoid paying the standard tax?

Ironman says

https://patrick.net/?p=1300116&c=1356510#comment-1356510

Also try this:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=231711

Your proof is a broken link and a link to your own post. Excellent work.

Jojo sure is defending the WaPo with a fervor! Makes me wonder if his employer owns it.
Shills gotta stay loyal to the man who pays them!

"Jojo sure is defending the WaPo with a fervor! Makes me wonder if his employer owns it.
Shills gotta stay loyal to the man who pays them!"

Well done. When the facts aren't on your side, question the motive of the poster. Rule #1 of the conservative propaganda machine.

What if, the interests of Russia align with that of the American people?

I'm still trying to figure out the greater irony; that hypocritical USFEDGOV is crying foul over a foreign gov meddling in our election, after all our failed regime changes, or that Facts sunk the Clinton ship, so facts are bad, what with their liberal bias and all.

Don't blame me, I voted for Bernie

I'm no Clinton supporter either, but to be fair, the Comey nonsense wasn't really "facts".

Facts was in reference to the DNC rigging their election to deny Bernie the presidency

errc says

or that Facts sunk the Clinton ship, so facts are bad,

The point is not that facts are bad. The point is that selectively publishing all of the negative facts about one side and refusing to do so to the other side is unfair. Making a horse race shorter is not inherently unfair and bad for judging horses. But making it shorter for one horse and not the other is bad.

errc says

What if, the interests of Russia align with that of the American people?

I don't think that we should blindly just elect the person who Russia didn't want. But another country meddling in our election is bad regardless of the outcome. It should be easy to state that without worrying about what the implications are for this particular election.

YesYNot says

Why are you against a sweetheart deal here, but all for Trump's Carrier sweetheart deal where the company gets to avoid paying the standard tax?

Is Carrier allowed to keep sales taxes they collect?

You realize that Amazon dodged sales taxes for years, nationally, of course. It was fundamental to their business model.

Doesn't seem to be affecting the stock price at the moment:

General Motors Company (GM)
37.40 +0.31 (+0.82%)

Thunderlips is Tovbot2 says

Is Carrier allowed to keep sales taxes they collect?

They are allowed to avoid paying 7 million in taxes. Do you really care if it is sales tax, income tax, or property tax? Either you are against such race to the bottom tax incentive deals, or you are not.

Yes, I realize that Amazon dodged sales taxes for years. Technically, individuals dodged those taxes, since they were supposed to report and pay them. But yeah, I get that Amazon benefited. The US gov made a point of being relaxed about taxing internet businesses in the beginning. They wanted to encourage the new industry. Once it was established and competitive, they started cracking down. Or maybe Amazon just had to have brick and mortar in each state to improve distribution as they grew, so they couldn't avoid it any longer.

Do you dislike mail order/internet businesses like Amazon? Personally, I like the convenience and do most of my shopping there (excluding groceries and big box / garden type stuff). Different strokes for different folks.

Debt = Wealth!!!

YesYNot says

The point is that selectively publishing all of the negative facts about one side and refusing to do so to the other side is unfair.

So you're saying that what the mainstream media did to Donald Trump for 15 months straight was unfair? Interesting point! I agree!