patrick.net

4X says

How would poor people pay for healthcare under your policy?

Under his policy poor people would have no coverage. They'd get really sick, go to the hospital and be turned away because no coverage. They'd die. Problem solved.

elliemae says

And yet you believe that the provider of care in a rural clinic should accept Medicare - which dictates the prices it pays to providers. You can’t have it both ways.

When did I ever say that? now you are surely putting words in my mouth. I was simply pointing out that Medicare failed her because she CAN'T use it at her doctors office. It is not her fault, not her doctors fault either.

Yes it is traditional medicare A and B with Medicare D for drugs.
elliemae says

The government isn’t making it hard for her to get some of her “wealth” back. She can access healthcare and she can access a pharmacy - she didn’t choose a plan that had her medications in their formulary. She has access to medications through the mail order pharmacy and through whatever pharmacy is closest to her home that accepts her insurance plan. That’s a common thing in the healthcare industry - but you wouldn’t know that because it’s not what you do. It’s also common for people to have an MD for years, then change jobs or not have coverage and find that they have to find another MD.

No, it is very easy to find a new doctor and drive dozens of miles in either direction to get what you used to get in walking distance. My bad. There is only one pharmacy in her town. It doesn't take medicare. For the past 15 years she has been happy with her health plan. When medicare came in, now she can't do anything in her home town. But I am sure she is better off with it than on her old plan right? Again, my bad

Do you know why doctors don't accept Medicare patients or limit the number of Medicare patients? Reimbursement rates are low. Do you know why just about every hospital I've ever worked at wants to be known as a great cardiac center? Medicare reimburses cardiac care at higher than normal levels. Do you know why most hospitals have outsourced their kidney dialysis? Crappy reimbursement. Do you know that some procedures get chosen over others even though the less chosen has better outcomes? Higher reimbursement rates.

Leigh says

Do you know why doctors don’t accept Medicare patients or limit the number of Medicare patients? Reimbursement rates are low. Do you know why just about every hospital I’ve ever worked at wants to be known as a great cardiac center? Medicare reimburses cardiac care at higher than normal levels. Do you know why most hospitals have outsourced their kidney dialysis? Crappy reimbursement. Do you know that some procedures get chosen over others even though the less chosen has better outcomes? Higher reimbursement rates.

Thanks Leigh, you are right on.

And these are all examples of how government intervention is failing/causing more waste and mis-allocation of resources in the health care marketplace.

AdHominem says

Kev you are on to something. You might enjoy this one. It talks about that very thing. How “liberals” became the new “conservatives” and vice versa.

"Conservatives" today aren't anything like the liberals of the 1800s. They happen to agree on certain aspects of economics, and that's about it.

Kevin says

AdHominem says

Kev you are on to something. You might enjoy this one. It talks about that very thing. How “liberals” became the new “conservatives” and vice versa.

“Conservatives” today aren’t anything like the liberals of the 1800s. They happen to agree on certain aspects of economics, and that’s about it.

Just read the book, then we'll talk.

And I recommend this great book: How Doctors Think

http://www.jeromegroopman.com/how-doctors-think.html

It's not just Medicare reimbursement rates that are problematic.

AdHominem says

When medicare came in, now she can’t do anything in her home town. But I am sure she is better off with it than on her old plan right? Again, my bad

She's eligible for Medicare. Just as with her old insurance, there are rules and some providers don't accept that reimbursement. Medicare isn't better than her old plan - and it's probably no worse than her old plan. It's different.

Again, free enterprise comes into play. If the government ran healthcare, the clinic & pharmacy would be providers. They don't. And she'll need to find new providers. Just as she would if the clinic closed, or the doctor died and she had to find another provider. Same with the pharmacy. This isn't a good example of how the government should stay out of healthcare.

The subject of this thread is about the unelected body that will dictate future medical decisions - but we already have unelected people running our healthcare. And, using your example, it's not working so well.

Just sayin.

Leigh says

And I recommend this great book: How Doctors Think
http://www.jeromegroopman.com/how-doctors-think.html
It’s not just Medicare reimbursement rates that are problematic.

This is true. Private pay is the only way to go. End all third party payers.

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I'm sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I'd be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

555-HIPPA violation

She can contact Tatupu70 w/out violation of HIPPA.

This is a double post since we seem to have two similar threads going.

AdHominem, can you address this previous comment. It’s a crucial part of the debate. What would folks 65 and older do for insurance w/out Medicare? What would the housewife who has never worked out of the home and now is widowed do for health care? What are your solutions?

“OK, say we throw Medicare out the door. Take all the money she had been contributing these past 40 years and put it toward private insurance after retirement. How much money do you think that would be? Would it be adequate to afford the premiums in the ‘free market’, imagine all of her pre-existing conditions. Would she have enough funds for 20 years of premiums, co-pays and deductibles, medications? And consider the premiums would be based on age and health.

In my mind, the 65 and older folks drain the health care dollars. Not only would their premiums be sky high but there will be much more scrutiny of where the dollars are going. Yes, private insurance has ‘death panels’ just ask any transplant doctor.”

Do you realize how much health care is consumed by this age group? You really think charity can absorb half of it. You will see death panels if charity is what the majority of this age group is left with. DO you realize how much an MI can cost you especially if it involves bypass surgery, an ICU stay and meds, assuming you lived? Would the debt get passed on to your loved ones?

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says
AdHominem says
elliemae says
Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.
Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.
I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.
555-HIPPA violation

I'm not asking for her medical records.. Giving out a phone number is not a HIPPA violation or else bars would be out of business...

SHould all of our veterans rely on charity health care?

^ I can answer that; veteran's care is a direct cost of war. Without it, there would be no volunteers. And drafts would fail.

Veterans earn their benefits with their national service. Speaking in the general, of course. National security is worth more than all the gold in Ft Knox (and is state of being provided by the economic services of our . . . servicemen). Just ask the French in 1940, the Russians in 1941, and the Iraqis in 2003.

'course, the problem comes when we throw our military into places that aren't really national security related but more power projection. Here, the payers of the bills and the beneficiaries of the action are rather disjoint.

Troy, how about if you just did your 4 years then moved on, never stepping foot in another country or did the Reserve/Guard thing and there too never went beyond the one weekend a month. Do they deserve a life time of health care? Our VA system is overwhelmed. And with more unemployed and losing health bennies the waiting list is grwoing longer.

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn't too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

555-HIPPA violation

I’m not asking for her medical records.. Giving out a phone number is not a HIPPA violation or else bars would be out of business…

bars are not a covered entity under hippa, though they do dispense (self)medication. Please enjoy their products in mass quantities.

Leigh says

She can contact Tatupu70 w/out violation of HIPPA. She sure could. If she knew him and cared to talk to a socialist (I mean it in a good way).

AdHominem, can you address this previous comment. It’s a crucial part of the debate. What would folks 65 and older do for insurance w/out Medicare? What would the housewife who has never worked out of the home and now is widowed do for health care? What are your solutions?

---I propose anyone who is 55 or older continue on Medicare as planned. Everyone else can choose to continue paying in or get a full refund with interest. And yes, I believe charity can take care of the rest.

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Veterans deserve whatever they were promised. I am not sure what, if anything that is. But if they were promised health care then "we" owe it to them.

But VA is government run health care. You're OK with that?

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Nope, my father-in-law got a triple bypass operation basically for free at a VA hospital - nothing at all to do with his military service, just the sort of thing that happens to many of us as we get older. I'm extremely glad that he had this option because it would have been hidiously expensive otherwise and I don't think we could have afforded it.

Leigh says

But VA is government run health care. You’re OK with that?

It probably would be more efficient if we allowed more competition. Also, I would not guess that the best and the brightest doctors aspire to work at the VA, as a patient that would concern me. It does concern me as well when we make an open ended commitment for spending. Like a blank check.

bdrasin says

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Nope, my father-in-law got a triple bypass operation basically for free at a VA hospital - nothing at all to do with his military service, just the sort of thing that happens to many of us as we get older. I’m extremely glad that he had this option because it would have been hidiously expensive otherwise and I don’t think we could have afforded it.

I believe my grandpa died prematurely due to incompetence at the VA. They attempted an operation he was not well enough to endure. It killed him.

AdHominem says

I believe my grandpa died prematurely due to incompetence at the VA. They attempted an operation he was not well enough to endure. It killed him.

I believe it. The VA used to be absolutely awful in the 1970s and 1980s. Its changed a lot for the better; my father-in-law got very good care I believe. Sorry about your grandfather.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

:)

elliemae says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

Would you start with something like this?
"Hi, I don't know you but I just wanted to see how Medicare is working for you. You see I am a socialist and I find it hard to believe that you are not happy with your "coverage". Some guy is claiming that you have been forced to find a new doctor 25 miles away, and a new pharmacy as well. Can this be true?" And if so, isn't it better to be like all the other people who are forced to change the way they get their care? Isn't it better that we all suffer the same rather than some people getting better care than others? I mean this is America right? Land of the free and home of the bureaucracy! With wiretaps and bailouts for all."

Yea - that's exactly how I'd start out. And then I'd laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I'd turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.

You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.
You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.
You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

Once again - a mixed message. If I were coming on to you, you would be winning me over. See the difference? I don't know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

:)

elliemae says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.

You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

Once again - a mixed message. If I were coming on to you, you would be winning me over. See the difference? I don’t know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

If you see me lets hook up, I'll take you back to my parents basement where I live and we'll play dungeons and dragons while watching Battlestar Galactica. You can bring the Koolade.

But seriously Ellie when push comes to shove, all you have left to do is attack personal character. Ad Hominem is the style around here.

AdHominem says

Would you start with something like this?
“Hi, I don’t know you but I just wanted to see how Medicare is working for you. You see I am a socialist and I find it hard to believe that you are not happy with your “coverage”. Some guy is claiming that you have been forced to find a new doctor 25 miles away, and a new pharmacy as well. Can this be true?” And if so, isn’t it better to be like all the other people who are forced to change the way they get their care? Isn’t it better that we all suffer the same rather than some people getting better care than others? I mean this is America right? Land of the free and home of the bureaucracy! With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

No, probably wouldn't be much like that. How about this--you give me her number and I'll conference you in the call as well. You can listen to exactly what we talk about.

No? OK, how about you at least share where she lives? That can't be protected by HIPPA, right? This town that's 25 miles away from a pharmacy that accepts Medicare.

AdHominem says

Ad Hominem is the style around here.

At least someone thinks you're cool. Personally, I'll choose substance over style every time.

I do wonder why it is that when someone agrees with you, they're perceptive - yet when someone (many, many on this board) disagrees with you and points out your inconsistencies, they're attacking you personally?

tatupu70 says

That can’t be protected by HIPPA, right? This town that’s 25 miles away from a pharmacy that accepts Medicare.

...and, once again I must say that Medicare isn't a payment source for medications. It's private companies who are providers within the Medicare program. Having already pointed out that this person could receive meds from a mail order pharmacy for one co-payment per 90 day supply, delivered right to her home - and also that she chose the drug plan that doesn't serve her local pharmacy yet chooses to blame Medicare for her poor choices, I'll move on to the HIPPA reference.

HIPPA applies to providers & patients - certainly not to people who post anecdotal stories on the internet about people who may, or may not, actually exist. It does sound intellectual, to toss out acronyms such as HIPPA - but as previously mentioned I prefer substance over style.

elliemae says

At least someone thinks you’re cool. Personally, I’ll choose substance over style every time.

Mee two.

elliemae says

I do wonder why it is that when someone agrees with you, they’re perceptive

Funny, I never said that. It is great so many people want to speak for me.

elliemae says

yet when someone (many, many on this board)

Really, like how many. A few socialists. A bunch of socialists? What's to worry about that? Are you trying to make it sound like I'm in the minority, or just make me feel bad? Well, even if I am in the minority I am OK with that. All the cool kids can drink the koolade.

elliemae says

I don’t know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

Calling someone a paranoid nerd (by implication), that is not a personal attack? YOU have no substance, just Ad Hominem. But again, since that is all you have left, I am sure we can expect MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

But if you are willing to behave a little less juvenile, Why don't we get back to the facts? Medicare is bankrupting us. It is riddled with fraud, waste and abuse. And yet people are calling for expansion of Medicare or a Medicare like system for everyone. It is like fighting a fire with a blowtorch. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

We need to end fraud waste and abuse that is inherent in the third party payer systems.

AdHominem says

"With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

Brought to you by your friendly local conservative true american patriot George Bush.

bob2356 says

AdHominem says

“With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

Brought to you by your friendly local conservative true american patriot George Bush.

True. As is: the peace president is escalating our involvement in Afghanistan. Bait and switch, the foundation of American politics since FDR.

AdHominem says

True. As is: the peace president is escalating our involvement in Afghanistan. Bait and switch, the foundation of American politics since FDR

How is it a bait and switch? One of his big promises was to focus our attention on Al Quieda instead of being distracted in Iraq. He's simply following through on that promise... As he should

I am glad that there are less Americans and Iraqis dying in Iraq. But we are still there. Now we are sending more troops to Afghanistan to "finish the job." Whatever that means. Al Quaeda is a "network of Terrorists." It cannot be defeated with force because it is based on an ideology and all attacks just make it grow stronger and more violent, and it certainly cannot be defeated by focusing on Afghanistan.

If we want to defeat this ideology we must get our own ideology in line.

But good luck with that. Hope it works better for Obama than it did for the Soviets. 15,000 soldiers died on their side before they realized their mistake.