patrick.net

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

555-HIPPA violation

She can contact Tatupu70 w/out violation of HIPPA.

This is a double post since we seem to have two similar threads going.

AdHominem, can you address this previous comment. It’s a crucial part of the debate. What would folks 65 and older do for insurance w/out Medicare? What would the housewife who has never worked out of the home and now is widowed do for health care? What are your solutions?

“OK, say we throw Medicare out the door. Take all the money she had been contributing these past 40 years and put it toward private insurance after retirement. How much money do you think that would be? Would it be adequate to afford the premiums in the ‘free market’, imagine all of her pre-existing conditions. Would she have enough funds for 20 years of premiums, co-pays and deductibles, medications? And consider the premiums would be based on age and health.

In my mind, the 65 and older folks drain the health care dollars. Not only would their premiums be sky high but there will be much more scrutiny of where the dollars are going. Yes, private insurance has ‘death panels’ just ask any transplant doctor.”

Do you realize how much health care is consumed by this age group? You really think charity can absorb half of it. You will see death panels if charity is what the majority of this age group is left with. DO you realize how much an MI can cost you especially if it involves bypass surgery, an ICU stay and meds, assuming you lived? Would the debt get passed on to your loved ones?

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says
AdHominem says
elliemae says
Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.
Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.
I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.
555-HIPPA violation

I'm not asking for her medical records.. Giving out a phone number is not a HIPPA violation or else bars would be out of business...

SHould all of our veterans rely on charity health care?

^ I can answer that; veteran's care is a direct cost of war. Without it, there would be no volunteers. And drafts would fail.

Veterans earn their benefits with their national service. Speaking in the general, of course. National security is worth more than all the gold in Ft Knox (and is state of being provided by the economic services of our . . . servicemen). Just ask the French in 1940, the Russians in 1941, and the Iraqis in 2003.

'course, the problem comes when we throw our military into places that aren't really national security related but more power projection. Here, the payers of the bills and the beneficiaries of the action are rather disjoint.

Troy, how about if you just did your 4 years then moved on, never stepping foot in another country or did the Reserve/Guard thing and there too never went beyond the one weekend a month. Do they deserve a life time of health care? Our VA system is overwhelmed. And with more unemployed and losing health bennies the waiting list is grwoing longer.

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn't too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

555-HIPPA violation

I’m not asking for her medical records.. Giving out a phone number is not a HIPPA violation or else bars would be out of business…

bars are not a covered entity under hippa, though they do dispense (self)medication. Please enjoy their products in mass quantities.

Leigh says

She can contact Tatupu70 w/out violation of HIPPA. She sure could. If she knew him and cared to talk to a socialist (I mean it in a good way).

AdHominem, can you address this previous comment. It’s a crucial part of the debate. What would folks 65 and older do for insurance w/out Medicare? What would the housewife who has never worked out of the home and now is widowed do for health care? What are your solutions?

---I propose anyone who is 55 or older continue on Medicare as planned. Everyone else can choose to continue paying in or get a full refund with interest. And yes, I believe charity can take care of the rest.

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Veterans deserve whatever they were promised. I am not sure what, if anything that is. But if they were promised health care then "we" owe it to them.

But VA is government run health care. You're OK with that?

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Nope, my father-in-law got a triple bypass operation basically for free at a VA hospital - nothing at all to do with his military service, just the sort of thing that happens to many of us as we get older. I'm extremely glad that he had this option because it would have been hidiously expensive otherwise and I don't think we could have afforded it.

Leigh says

But VA is government run health care. You’re OK with that?

It probably would be more efficient if we allowed more competition. Also, I would not guess that the best and the brightest doctors aspire to work at the VA, as a patient that would concern me. It does concern me as well when we make an open ended commitment for spending. Like a blank check.

bdrasin says

Troy says

Leigh says

Do they deserve a life time of health care?

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought current VA benefits were limited to service-related conditions. The VA site isn’t too clear about this. AdHom can answer the question on whether veterans deserve more than that.

Nope, my father-in-law got a triple bypass operation basically for free at a VA hospital - nothing at all to do with his military service, just the sort of thing that happens to many of us as we get older. I’m extremely glad that he had this option because it would have been hidiously expensive otherwise and I don’t think we could have afforded it.

I believe my grandpa died prematurely due to incompetence at the VA. They attempted an operation he was not well enough to endure. It killed him.

AdHominem says

I believe my grandpa died prematurely due to incompetence at the VA. They attempted an operation he was not well enough to endure. It killed him.

I believe it. The VA used to be absolutely awful in the 1970s and 1980s. Its changed a lot for the better; my father-in-law got very good care I believe. Sorry about your grandfather.

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

:)

elliemae says

tatupu70 says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Medicare isn’t better than her old plan - and it’s probably no worse than her old plan. It’s different.

Tell that to her. I’m sure it will make her feel a whole lot better.

I’d be happy to. What is her phone number? I would like to speak with her and hear her story firsthand.

Would you start with something like this?
"Hi, I don't know you but I just wanted to see how Medicare is working for you. You see I am a socialist and I find it hard to believe that you are not happy with your "coverage". Some guy is claiming that you have been forced to find a new doctor 25 miles away, and a new pharmacy as well. Can this be true?" And if so, isn't it better to be like all the other people who are forced to change the way they get their care? Isn't it better that we all suffer the same rather than some people getting better care than others? I mean this is America right? Land of the free and home of the bureaucracy! With wiretaps and bailouts for all."

Yea - that's exactly how I'd start out. And then I'd laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I'd turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.

You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.
You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.
You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

Once again - a mixed message. If I were coming on to you, you would be winning me over. See the difference? I don't know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

:)

elliemae says

AdHominem says

elliemae says

Yea - that’s exactly how I’d start out. And then I’d laugh maniacally and make fun of the way she dressed. Then I’d turn her into homeland security for questioning the Medicare system and hope that they wiretapped her while I drove to my bailout bank.

You certainly are difficult to take seriously. I stopped some time ago.

Are you coming on to me? Aw, shucks. And I thought I was starting to win you over.

Once again - a mixed message. If I were coming on to you, you would be winning me over. See the difference? I don’t know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

If you see me lets hook up, I'll take you back to my parents basement where I live and we'll play dungeons and dragons while watching Battlestar Galactica. You can bring the Koolade.

But seriously Ellie when push comes to shove, all you have left to do is attack personal character. Ad Hominem is the style around here.

AdHominem says

Would you start with something like this?
“Hi, I don’t know you but I just wanted to see how Medicare is working for you. You see I am a socialist and I find it hard to believe that you are not happy with your “coverage”. Some guy is claiming that you have been forced to find a new doctor 25 miles away, and a new pharmacy as well. Can this be true?” And if so, isn’t it better to be like all the other people who are forced to change the way they get their care? Isn’t it better that we all suffer the same rather than some people getting better care than others? I mean this is America right? Land of the free and home of the bureaucracy! With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

No, probably wouldn't be much like that. How about this--you give me her number and I'll conference you in the call as well. You can listen to exactly what we talk about.

No? OK, how about you at least share where she lives? That can't be protected by HIPPA, right? This town that's 25 miles away from a pharmacy that accepts Medicare.

AdHominem says

Ad Hominem is the style around here.

At least someone thinks you're cool. Personally, I'll choose substance over style every time.

I do wonder why it is that when someone agrees with you, they're perceptive - yet when someone (many, many on this board) disagrees with you and points out your inconsistencies, they're attacking you personally?

tatupu70 says

That can’t be protected by HIPPA, right? This town that’s 25 miles away from a pharmacy that accepts Medicare.

...and, once again I must say that Medicare isn't a payment source for medications. It's private companies who are providers within the Medicare program. Having already pointed out that this person could receive meds from a mail order pharmacy for one co-payment per 90 day supply, delivered right to her home - and also that she chose the drug plan that doesn't serve her local pharmacy yet chooses to blame Medicare for her poor choices, I'll move on to the HIPPA reference.

HIPPA applies to providers & patients - certainly not to people who post anecdotal stories on the internet about people who may, or may not, actually exist. It does sound intellectual, to toss out acronyms such as HIPPA - but as previously mentioned I prefer substance over style.

elliemae says

At least someone thinks you’re cool. Personally, I’ll choose substance over style every time.

Mee two.

elliemae says

I do wonder why it is that when someone agrees with you, they’re perceptive

Funny, I never said that. It is great so many people want to speak for me.

elliemae says

yet when someone (many, many on this board)

Really, like how many. A few socialists. A bunch of socialists? What's to worry about that? Are you trying to make it sound like I'm in the minority, or just make me feel bad? Well, even if I am in the minority I am OK with that. All the cool kids can drink the koolade.

elliemae says

I don’t know you - but do believe I could spot you in a crowd. Your tinfoil hat and pocket protector would rat you out.

Calling someone a paranoid nerd (by implication), that is not a personal attack? YOU have no substance, just Ad Hominem. But again, since that is all you have left, I am sure we can expect MORE PERSONAL ATTACKS.

But if you are willing to behave a little less juvenile, Why don't we get back to the facts? Medicare is bankrupting us. It is riddled with fraud, waste and abuse. And yet people are calling for expansion of Medicare or a Medicare like system for everyone. It is like fighting a fire with a blowtorch. Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

We need to end fraud waste and abuse that is inherent in the third party payer systems.

AdHominem says

"With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

Brought to you by your friendly local conservative true american patriot George Bush.

bob2356 says

AdHominem says

“With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

Brought to you by your friendly local conservative true american patriot George Bush.

True. As is: the peace president is escalating our involvement in Afghanistan. Bait and switch, the foundation of American politics since FDR.

AdHominem says

True. As is: the peace president is escalating our involvement in Afghanistan. Bait and switch, the foundation of American politics since FDR

How is it a bait and switch? One of his big promises was to focus our attention on Al Quieda instead of being distracted in Iraq. He's simply following through on that promise... As he should

I am glad that there are less Americans and Iraqis dying in Iraq. But we are still there. Now we are sending more troops to Afghanistan to "finish the job." Whatever that means. Al Quaeda is a "network of Terrorists." It cannot be defeated with force because it is based on an ideology and all attacks just make it grow stronger and more violent, and it certainly cannot be defeated by focusing on Afghanistan.

If we want to defeat this ideology we must get our own ideology in line.

But good luck with that. Hope it works better for Obama than it did for the Soviets. 15,000 soldiers died on their side before they realized their mistake.

@Ad--

But we're not trying to occupy their country. Th

100,000 foreign troops plus hired mercenaries (sorry, CONTRACTORS) is not occupying their country? What planet are you looking at?

bob2356 says

AdHominem says

“With wiretaps and bailouts for all.”

Brought to you by your friendly local conservative true american patriot George Bush.

Also, to be fair we must give “credit” to a whole bunch of Democrats and Republicans in Congress (most of whom are still in office!)

AdHominem, if I have this correct, you, as a Libertarian, are an advocate for charity care for the Medicare/Medicaid group. At least this is what I'm reading in Ron Paul's Revolution book and from some of your comments.

Here are a few questions: looking at our health care expenditures, how much is consumed by the Medicare group?

Why are companies quick to get rid of promised health care bennies for retirees forcing them onto Medicare and why is the gov paying these companies to keep these retirees on their health insurance plans?

What would health care look like for this population is charity was their main source of care? Just like in the olden days before Medicare/Medicaid existed. How would charities prioritize, for example.

And given that such a huge amount of health care $ is this population, what happens to all the doctors, nurses, etc.

Help me grasp this. I know Medicare can't go on as is but I'm having a hard time seeing solutions without restricting care, denying coverage, requiring much more out of pocket, etc.

Give me some details. Thanks. Leigh

Leigh says

Help me grasp this. I know Medicare can’t go on as is but I’m having a hard time seeing solutions without restricting care, denying coverage, requiring much more out of pocket, etc.

There needs to be a free market in health care in order for proper allocation of resources. We can't have government intervention setting prices, restricting access, misallocating resources etc... That is what we have now. More of the same is going to give us even more of the same.

In order to make health care affordable and accessible we need:

1. Tax free medical savings accounts.
2. Tax free insurance purchase (not just for employers but for everyone)
3. End license requirements for providers which restricts supply of providers, drastically reduces competition, drives up cost of education and creates a powerful monopoly for the few who do obtain a license. (the marketplace will demand competency, and punish incompetency better than any bureaucracy could)
4. A marketplace and information exchange like a priceline.com for health care (shop around, check the ratings, competitive bidding, find what works for you)
5. Freedom to purchase health insurance without regulations. Many doctors would like to be your insurance company. They would be happy to charge your family lets say $120 a month in exchange for unlimited access. Sort of like a cell phone plan. Current laws make this onerous or illegal for them to do so. But that would be a great way to cut out the middle man and the waste associated with it.

These ideas are just a start. I am sure the free market (if there was one) would come up with many new, innovative and cost effective ways to deliver care.

AdHominem says

Many doctors would like to be your insurance company. They would be happy to charge your family lets say $120 a month in exchange for unlimited access.

There are doctors that do this (concierge medicine). It's fine, as long as one doesn't need any labs, tests, procedures at hospitals, etc.

elliemae says

AdHominem says

Many doctors would like to be your insurance company. They would be happy to charge your family lets say $120 a month in exchange for unlimited access.

There are doctors that do this (concierge medicine). It’s fine, as long as one doesn’t need any labs, tests, procedures at hospitals, etc.

I'm sure the market will meet this need if government didn't encourage most people to get health insurance from the mega-insurers through their employer because of unfair tax laws.

Leigh says

Give me some details. Thanks. Leigh

AH never does details, only platitudes. The devil's in the details and he never provides any details of how or why his idea's would work. I have pointed out huge gaping holes in his ideas's several times on this post. Surely there must be a real life example of the type of health care he advocates being used somewhere in the world that we could look at to see the validity of his plans in a real world environment but I can't think of where. Perhaps AH would like to provide the examples of health care systems around the world that show his idea's at work for everyone to examine?

bob2356 says

Leigh says

Give me some details. Thanks. Leigh

AH never does details, only platitudes. The devil’s in the details and he never provides any details of how or why his idea’s would work. I have pointed out huge gaping holes in his ideas’s several times on this post. Surely there must be a real life example of the type of health care he advocates being used somewhere in the world that we could look at to see the validity of his plans in a real world environment but I can’t think of where. Perhaps AH would like to provide the examples of health care systems around the world that show his idea’s at work for everyone to examine?

Here bob,
http://www.healthnewsdigest.com/news/Guest_Columnist_710/What_America_s_Healthcare_Delivery_System_Can_Learn_from_India.shtml

from an earlier post...
In order to make health care affordable and accessible we need:

1. Tax free medical savings accounts.
2. Tax free insurance purchase (not just for employers but for everyone)
3. End license requirements for providers which restricts supply of providers, drastically reduces competition, drives up cost of education and creates a powerful monopoly for the few who do obtain a license. (the marketplace will demand competency, and punish incompetency better than any bureaucracy could)
4. A marketplace and information exchange like a priceline.com for health care (shop around, check the ratings, competitive bidding, find what works for you)
5. Freedom to purchase health insurance without regulations. Many doctors would like to be your insurance company. They would be happy to charge your family lets say $120 a month in exchange for unlimited access. Sort of like a cell phone plan. Current laws make this onerous or illegal for them to do so. But that would be a great way to cut out the middle man and the waste associated with it.
*a new addition* 6. Private an public insurance needs to be banned from price setting, which stiffles innovation, competition etc... and promotes the status quo/and or large corporations who know how to game the system.

These ideas are just a start. I am sure the free market (if there was one) would come up with many new, innovative and cost effective ways to deliver care.

bob2356 says

Leigh says

Give me some details. Thanks. Leigh

AH never does details, only platitudes. The devil’s in the details and he never provides any details of how or why his idea’s would work. I have pointed out huge gaping holes in his ideas’s several times on this post. Surely there must be a real life example of the type of health care he advocates being used somewhere in the world that we could look at to see the validity of his plans in a real world environment but I can’t think of where. Perhaps AH would like to provide the examples of health care systems around the world that show his idea’s at work for everyone to examine?

wow ... how odd it is for a liberal minded lefty to attack on the personal level. It's as rare as sand on a beech.

Bap33 says

bob2356 says
Leigh says

Give me some details. Thanks. Leigh

AH never does details, only platitudes. The devil’s in the details and he never provides any details of how or why his idea’s would work. I have pointed out huge gaping holes in his ideas’s several times on this post. Surely there must be a real life example of the type of health care he advocates being used somewhere in the world that we could look at to see the validity of his plans in a real world environment but I can’t think of where. Perhaps AH would like to provide the examples of health care systems around the world that show his idea’s at work for everyone to examine?
wow … how odd it is for a liberal minded lefty to attack on the personal level. It’s as rare as sand on a beech.

That's a personal attack?? You conservatives are awfully sensitive, aren't you?