patrick.net

The trough is deep, and wide.

Debt Held by the Public:
12/31/2007 5,136,302,727,072.67
12/31/2008 6,369,318,869,476.54
12/17/2009 7,732,874,151,767.92

$2.6 trillion dollars increase, in just under two years. Un----ingbelievable. We are getting very little bang for a whole lotta borrowed bucks.

Nomograph says

I’m a Victim says

select exerpts:

Did it ever occur to you that not everything you read on the Internet is true?

Beautiful!

I'm mentally challenged says

I’m a Victim says

select exerpts:

Did it ever occur to you that not everything you read on the Internet is true?

elliemae says

I'm mentally challenged says

I’m a Victim says

select exerpts:

Did it ever occur to you that not everything you read on the Internet is true?

Beautiful!

What kind of koolade do you guys drink for the holidays?

I guess the USA Today is not a credible source either? America is just fine, go back to work, drink your koolade and buy a big screen tv. Listen to everything Oprah and PBS tells you about "health care reform" (aka socialized medicine) and global warming and stuff and be sure to recycle. We can save the world one wiretap at a time. In Government we trust (as long as liberals are in office).

AdHominem says

I guess the USA Today is not a credible source either?

You have to be careful when you read those crazy websites. It says “The newspaper USA Today reports that before the recession started, the Department of Transportation employed only one person earning more than $170,000 a year." But it doesn't say that the USA today reports that "Today, more than 1,690 people there earn more than $170,000.” It's kind of like a Simon says game..

The second statement was just a random blog's statement, not USA Today.

Tatu,

I know the koolade tends to cloud the mind. But either the article is correct and there are now 1689 more people in the department of transportation that earn over $170,000 a year or there are not. If you want to argue that there are not then please call the USA today. If not why don't you explain why you are not outraged that there are 1689 more bureaucrats leaching off the system and earning over 4 times the average salary of a person working in private enterprise? Is it because Obama is in office? Is it because you think we need this people and they deserve these exorbitant salaries?

Shouldn't public service be more about "service" and less about salary?

Cream might rise to the top, but there seems to be a layer of scum in the top of that.

I found the article and you're right, but it had this paragraph for why it happened:

Pay hikes. Then-president Bush recommended — and Congress approved — across-the-board raises of 3% in January 2008 and 3.9% in January 2009. President Obama has recommended 2% pay raises in January 2010, the smallest since 1975. Most federal workers also get longevity pay hikes — called steps — that average 1.5% per year.

Thanks Tatu,
and I agree it is not Obama's doing. But it is happening under his watch. And besides that I don't care who is responsible for ordering the pay raises. The fact of the matter is that government is too bloated. Rather than giving out pay raises, we should be cutting back like private employers are doing. It is irresponsible for you, me, Congress and Obama to sit idly by and watch our nation fall into an abyss of debt.

AdHominem says

Thanks Tatu,
and I agree it is not Obama’s doing. But it is happening under his watch. And besides that I don’t care who is responsible for ordering the pay raises. The fact of the matter is that government is too bloated. Rather than giving out pay raises, we should be cutting back like private employers are doing. It is irresponsible for you, me, Congress and Obama to sit idly by and watch our nation fall into an abyss of debt.

Why do you think its absurd that government employees make an avg of 76k versus 45k for private. The people that run these private companies do not care about our families welfare and their only focus is profit. The governments focus is to spend more, so of course we will make far less at a private company because our government does not have to worry about reducing costs to turn a profit. I believe anytime we see increased wages we should look at it as more opportunity opening for our children and not as our tax dollars being wasted. I give up 35% of my income because I believe in the opportunities provided by America, and I choose not to leave because my life is better here.

With all the multinational corps sending jobs overseas are you really a supporter of corporate America? Shouldnt they be paying top range to their foreign teams as well?

4X says

With all the multinational corps sending jobs overseas are you really a supporter of corporate America? Shouldnt they be paying top range to their foreign teams as well?

Nobody is supporting corporate America. They don't need any more help, their lobbyists insure they have more than they need. But at least corporate America does actually produce something sometimes, drugs, food, housing etc... Everything government has it must take from us (with force if necessary).

4X says

The people that run these private companies do not care about our families welfare and their only focus is profit.

Is profit evil? If so I hope you don't work for someone who makes a profit off your labor.

AdHominem says

What kind of koolade do you guys drink for the holidays?

Thanks for asking - I'm from Utah and here it's red punch and green jello. And we have killer funeral potatoes.

AdHominem says

Shouldn’t public service be more about “service” and less about salary?

I believe that, if we want the best working for state, federal, & local governments, we should pay comparable wages. This article doesn't mention the pay scales for the private sector in this type of employment. It was designed to outrage without providing enough info for me.

elliemae says

Nomograph says

I’m a Victim says

select exerpts:

Did it ever occur to you that not everything you read on the Internet is true?

Beautiful!

I said, "Beautiful!" because his comment about you was over-the-top funny. Your bastardization of his slam on you lost its impact due to its lack of originality.

Nomo - 10 out of 10 for the element of surprise, elocution, and form. (with a 3 point degree of difficulty)
Ad Hominem - zero for the lack of originality and stilted response. Of course, I looked up Ad Hominem on Dictionary.com and found the following definition:
adjective
1. appealing to one's prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one's intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent's character rather than answering his argument.

It figures.

elliemae says

looked up Ad Hominem on Dictionary.com and found the following definition:
adjective
1. appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.

Perhaps you should listen to the nomo yourself
Nomograph says

Did it ever occur to you that not everything you read on the Internet is true?

BTW the Ad Hominem nomer was chosen as a tongue in cheek response to people like you. People who are keen to attack the man rather than respond in a civilized manner with relevant information. Perhaps now you can look up tongue in cheek on your online dictionary.

Beautiful.

elliemae says

I’m from Utah and here it’s red punch and green jello. And we have killer funeral potatoes.

Is that the kind that Joseph Smith liked?

elliemae says

This article doesn’t mention the pay scales for the private sector in this type of employment.

I don't believe the private sector has need for people like Pay Czars, Drug Czars, wire tappers, FEMA directors, thought police, mid level text book selection bureaucrat, shovel leaner up againster etc...

DOT is doing a great job of inspecting the rubble under 35W bridge in Minneapolis though.

elliemae says

I said, “Beautiful!” because his comment about you was over-the-top funny. Your bastardization of his slam on you lost its impact due to its lack of originality.

You've got to be carefully taught, before it's too late. Before you are six or seven or twenty eight. To hate all the people your relatives hate. You've got to be carefully taught.

That is why you are doing. Hating on everyone who doesn't agree with you. Why don't you grow up? Is Ad Hominem all you got?

I started this thread to discuss the bloated government that is bankrupting our nation. And all you want to do is hate on me. Well I hope you are having fun. I also hope there are some adults here who will either agree that government is too bloated or disagree and try to argue that we need bigger more expensive government.

When Americans are losing jobs and facing cutbacks, why is government continuing to grow? And who is going to pay for it?

AdHominem says

You’ve got to be carefully taught, before it’s too late. Before you are six or seven or twenty eight. To hate all the people your relatives hate. You’ve got to be carefully taught.

AdHominem says

That is why you are doing. Hating on everyone who doesn’t agree with you. Why don’t you grow up? Is Ad Hominem all you got?

That is why I are doing what? I want to "hate on you?" I was carefully taught - I understand grammar, sentence structure, and the ability to formulate a coherent message. I'm certainly not "hating on you."

But it's all about you - 'cause you're a victim. You assert this time & time again in your posts. Not sure why you have a problem with someone who possesses a superior intellect and command of the english language pointing out your consistent inconsistencies. But then again, I have a life and don't spend huge chunks of time attempting to defend my position - nor do the countless others who do the same. I have the ability to think for myself - sometimes I agree with you, sometimes I don't.

I don't think on party lines, I think for myself without the benefit of fearmongering sites and pundits. Too bad you hate that - but since my world doesn't revolve around you, I don't lose sleep over it. I do know that, from the appearance of your posts, those who agree with you are right and those that don't are apparently "haters." This train of thought worked in high school, but I know many of us are past the egocentric thought processess from that period of our lives.

You quote the lyrics of a Rogers & Hammerstein musical for some reason - but since you bring it up, we could be more "carefully taught" if we were to decrease the fat-laden defense budget and remove port from so many bills and ask Alaska for the Bridge to Nowhere money back... We could fund more teachers and learning experiences for our children.

AdHominem says

When Americans are losing jobs and facing cutbacks, why is government continuing to grow? And who is going to pay for it?

You & I are.

AdHominem says

elliemae says

I’m from Utah and here it’s red punch and green jello. And we have killer funeral potatoes.

Is that the kind that Joseph Smith liked?

Joseph Smith never made it to Utah. AdHominem says

elliemae says

This article doesn’t mention the pay scales for the private sector in this type of employment.

I don’t believe the private sector has need for people like Pay Czars, Drug Czars, wire tappers, FEMA directors, thought police, mid level text book selection bureaucrat, shovel leaner up againster etc…
DOT is doing a great job of inspecting the rubble under 35W bridge in Minneapolis though.

GW had multiple czars and I don't hear you crowing about what a piece of shit he was.

There are many problems with our government - but they're not partisan. They're there, we need to deal with them, and it would help if we had a coherent arguement and real solutions beyond the "I'm a victim" mentality.

AH is correct in this post. Public employees 50 years ago were very poorly paid. Politicians got around that by offering very generious benefits, especially retirements. This allowed the problem to be booted into the future. Public employee unions have amassed huge amounts of political power since then, using it to lever public salaries to a higher level than private salaries for equivalent jobs. Without any corresponding reduction in benefits. Most cities, towns, and states are at best financially dead man walking because of this. The future is now. There simply isn't enough tax revenue available to pay current or future obligations no matter what. There will be many, many government bankruptcies in the future. This is the only way to break the obligations. Even worse is that the federal government will just borrow the money for it's own operations and to bail out local governments. It's beyond depressing.

elliemae says

There are many problems with our government - but they’re not partisan.

Right on.

elliemae says

“I’m a victim” mentality.

This is a straw man invented by you and NOMO. Just more distractions and hate. The real victims are you who think you are somehow above the fray when the vast majority of your posts a just personal an venomous attacks lacking any substance or pertinence to the issue.

We are in debt, and going deeper. I am offering a real solution. End the madness. Cut some of these bloated government agencies (DOD included).

Can you go even a few days without spewing some hate on people you disagree with? Calling names? Making up false statements of victimality?
Come on Ellie you are better than that.

elliemae says

It was designed to outrage

Exactly, it is designed to outrage. You see while you and Nomo like to have your fun distracting the rest of us from the real issues, I am trying to raise awareness and yes even a little anger at the fact that the empire of America is headed for disaster. We are in debt so deep I scarcely believe we can repay it in our lifetime even if we did a 180 on our profligate spending. We are trying to police the world and in the process creating more enemies than friends. When you add it all up, our growing list of enemies and even faster growing list of creditors: we are in for a rude awaking if we don't change our ways.

Rather than BS'ing about victim mentalities, AM radio and conservative stereotypes why not join the fight to return sanity to our society?

You see it is your mentality that is opposing change, opposing discussion of the issues and favoring factionalization, in-fighting, polarization and name calling. I have said it once and I'll say it again, we have more in common than not.

It is time people get outraged about these things. Maybe if enough people get fed up with the corruption, lies and power grabs by the elites we can actually restore our Republic to that shining city on a hill that the world looks to as a beacon of Freedom and Prosperity. Rather than the arrogant prick who rules with an iron fist.

@Ad

Why don't you fight for the right causes then? Like getting money out of politics. You know why laws are written to favor corporate America--because they buy the votes...

If our politicians could actually vote with their heart instead of with who was paying their bills, then I think things would be much different...

bob2356 says

AH is correct in this post. Public employees 50 years ago were very poorly paid. Politicians got around that by offering very generious benefits, especially retirements. This allowed the problem to be booted into the future. Public employee unions have amassed huge amounts of political power since then, using it to lever public salaries to a higher level than private salaries for equivalent jobs. Without any corresponding reduction in benefits. Most cities, towns, and states are at best financially dead man walking because of this. The future is now. There simply isn’t enough tax revenue available to pay current or future obligations no matter what. There will be many, many government bankruptcies in the future. This is the only way to break the obligations. Even worse is that the federal government will just borrow the money for it’s own operations and to bail out local governments. It’s beyond depressing.

It's not that way all over. City/County/state wages here are lower than private sector. We have no unions. So I can't identify. It is surprising when I read stories about people who retire and work full time for the public agency, double dipping. And the salaries are outrageous in other places. But not here. We start our sheriffs at $14/hour.

Ad, you have a short memory about your previous posts and you offer no real solutions. We can have this conversation a jillion times - just remember that you only speak for yourself, from your limited point of view, just spouting off. That's fine, but you take yourself wayyyy to seriously and are very defensive. Just because something is written on the interweb doesn't make it fact. But I've said that several times, in several ways.

I read the article and I think things should be specifed otherwise the article is simply manipulating.

170K is tricky number at best.
The pay schedule for pulbic employee in year 2008 was like 160K max even in high locality area like SF and DC even for senior excutive level. Getting more than 170K was quite impossible unless he/she got awarded and that's the way it should be. With salary increase in year 2009, getting 170K is becoming possible. And when you think about the number 1690, the number represents top 2.9% of people in organization, mostly be professionals, lawyers and managers who's been working there for years.

I don't see what's wrong /w that and wonder why the author choose to use the number 170K instead of 160K or 180K. I suppose that the author didn't want to say something like, no person got more than 180K in last year, and still no one does. that's whopping 0% increase. Look what the heck our government does w/ tax payer's money!

It basically is ridiculous way of analysing the way it should be. He should have used other examples if he wanted to point out something unacceptable.

Anyway, if there's any sucker to be blamed out there in public sector, it must be those fat *beep*s that are able to tap into tax payers money and hanigng with lobbyists, not those public employees working by the clock.

Not all the public employees are working by the clock.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:BVsHvysDxzEJ:coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm%3FFuseAction%3DFiles.View%26FileStore_id%3D8d706bec-eae6-49ba-9b42-c258f655e21e+tom+colburn+Missing+in+Action:+AWOL+in+the+Federal+Government&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgJrfXrMDY3ecKDdf8H7PQCaVXSQ8-UOjuls3u-EV6Z6WVq0d8RD1LiHSFlJs9wXlWFQfatFap2peLkaiYOelfdAQAjsU0PekzyQsaJqChkm6v0XSc_E-cqeBpPGo--Sm4JXEYC&sig=AHIEtbQXVOXjZa0Y5nF4BDEaAE0P2yV4xw

Interesting report by Sen Coburn about this very subject. Your tax dollars at work. From the report:

Since 2001, nearly 10,000 work years have been
lost due to employees who are absent from
their jobs without permission. This is
equivalent to 2.5 million work days and 316
entire 30-year federal careers.

tatupu70 says

If our politicians could actually vote with their heart instead of with who was paying their bills, then I think things would be much different…

I would like to think so too. But I am skeptical that it can actually be done. Check out the book "Whores" by Larry Klayman. He has some ideas that MIGHT work.

bob2356 says

Not all the public employees are working by the clock.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:BVsHvysDxzEJ:coburn.senate.gov/public/index.cfm%3FFuseAction%3DFiles.View%26FileStore_id%3D8d706bec-eae6-49ba-9b42-c258f655e21e+tom+colburn+Missing+in+Action:+AWOL+in+the+Federal+Government&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgJrfXrMDY3ecKDdf8H7PQCaVXSQ8-UOjuls3u-EV6Z6WVq0d8RD1LiHSFlJs9wXlWFQfatFap2peLkaiYOelfdAQAjsU0PekzyQsaJqChkm6v0XSc_E-cqeBpPGo–Sm4JXEYC&sig=AHIEtbQXVOXjZa0Y5nF4BDEaAE0P2yV4xw
Interesting report by Sen Coburn about this very subject. Your tax dollars at work. From the report:
Since 2001, nearly 10,000 work years have been

lost due to employees who are absent from

their jobs without permission. This is

equivalent to 2.5 million work days and 316

entire 30-year federal careers.

Exaclty, public employees (and let me preface this by saying that there are many good hard working and deserving public service employees) get better benefits, more paid time off, more coffee breaks, and way more leniency when it comes to job performance than in the private sector, in general. What we need is less public employees and more competition in the areas where government has taken over. Why shouldn't things like education, garbage, mail, fire etc be run by private organizations who compete with one another and are therefore forced to give the best service at the lowest cost, vs. government which is as good as the least common denominator and where service tends to get worse rather than better.

staynumz says

Homo and elie can whine all they want, but they have no game in this fight.

I'm having fun at this game. Not exactly a fight...

Another typical worthless report from another typical elected official.

2.5 milion work days lost in 7 years looks aweful, right? But when you devide that number by the number of federal employees for 7 years... their yearly absent is probabaly shorter than the senator's daily coffee break.

My girlfriend works for the Federal Government. She has no clue how good she has it. Everyone in her dept that left for the private sector job came back with their tails between their legs. They all got their jobs back! Absolutely disgusting!

Patrick posted a good article on public vs. private pay and benefits per hour worked. NOMO and the other koolade drinkers would have you believe that gubmint workers are the best and the brightest and deserve their higher salaries and plethora of paid holidays.

I am sure the American people see it the same way.
I think they need another pay raise right NOMO?

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/21/private-vs-public-sector-pay/?emc=eta1&source=patrick.net

staynumz says

Rule number one of libs. Never admit you got duped.

I googled, and wiki'd - and can't find the rule book. Please do enlighten me. Believe it or not, Nomo has said things with which I disagreed. I didn't feel the need to attack him or his sexuality, altho the more that he says, the more of a "real man" he appears to be. Mrs. Nomo is lucky, she has a partner who thinks for himself and is able to relay his meaning without resorting to childish comments.

The problem here is that a couple of posters are detracting from real conversations, exchanges of ideas. Just because you say you're right and that everyone else is wrong doesn't make it so. But this is juvenile. I hope for spirited conversation, not mean-spirited. I'm not sure that you know the difference. But I do hope that you are able to learn, it'll be a long life fighting against the Man otherwise.

elliemae says

I hope for spirited conversation, not mean-spirited.

You have proven by your actions (which are often mean spirited- for example your old classic "YAWN", and by siding with NOMO and his actions) that this is NOT TRUE.

It is hard to take the high road when your tolerance for ideas other than your own is next to zero. Another example would be attacking a post simply because it is an "opinion" and therefore somehow inferior to "unbiased news." As if there is such a thing as unbiased reporting. It is one thing to say you disagree with an opinion, but yet another to attack it simply because it IS an opinion.

AdHominem says

elliemae says

I hope for spirited conversation, not mean-spirited.

You have proven by your actions (which are often mean spirited- for example your old classic “YAWN”, and by siding with NOMO and his actions) that this is NOT TRUE.
It is hard to take the high road when your tolerance for ideas other than your own is next to zero. Another example would be attacking a post simply because it is an “opinion” and therefore somehow inferior to “unbiased news.” As if there is such a thing as unbiased reporting. It is one thing to say you disagree with an opinion, but yet another to attack it simply because it IS an opinion.

An opinion is inferior to unbiased news when used to support an argument. It's holds as much credibility as saying, "everyone knows..." (fyi, "everyone knows" doesn't work because 1) you couldn't possibly know everyone, and 2) that's too vague to be valid)

Do you actually believe that I'm "siding" with Nomograph against you? Because that would further support your assertions in other posts that you feel victimized. I say "yawn" because it's a much less mean-spirited way of saying that you're boorish.

Here we go again. Ellie wants to have it both ways, claiming she is not a bully, nor am I a victim. It is all in my head. The funny thing is that to prove her point she uses more name calling. What she doesn't realize is that every post gives more evidence of her true nature. She says she uses the "yawn" because it is LESS MEAN SPIRITED than what she really wants to say and believe.

Mean spirited, but she is the last to know it, perhaps will never admit it and certainly will never apologize for it.

But don't take my word for it. She said it herself, you just have to listen to what she says rather than what she thinks she says.

Interestingly enough I am not sure where she gets the "Everyone knows" example. It would appear to be another straw man mixed with Ad Hominem post on a thread where we could be discussing wasteful government spending.

The government is wasting your money ELLIE. It is wasting all our money. Let's talk about how to fix it. You can choose the high road. And together we can choose a better path for our country.

Nomograph says

AdHominem says

victim.

Yawn. Your “I’m a victim” posts are getting old. But, despite your claim that you are a ’slave’, it is a free country. You may walk this earth a free man or woman, or you can spend it self-shackled. It’s entirely up to you, big boy.

Which is why I started this thread big boy. So we can actually discuss how to end the wastefulness we are funding.

AdHominem says

So we can actually discuss how to end the wastefulness we are funding.

LOL. The solution is light-years away. Google Ron Paul!

Scroogle Ron Paul

(scroogle is the anti-google in case you haven't heard)

AdHominem says

Scroogle Ron Paul
(scroogle is the anti-google in case you haven’t heard)

we come to you for all the pertinent information. You're full of it.