patrick.net

Peter P,

I am a cultural relativist, in that I believe every society defines its own rules and adjust those rules over time to suit their conditions. I'm not a cultural relativist in that I think people can disobey on the books laws (eg., no bondage, no female circumcision) of the society in which they live.

I may not like how most governments of Africa run their land, but I sure as hell don't want the US imposing its moral authority (if any remains after Abu Ghraib) on these countries.

GC,

Come on! It's the Epoch Times, can you really not know?

I would actually like to get a job in Shanghai (or preferably, bi-coastal btwn Shanghai and SF). China's not really that bad, if you have money and AC and connections and no uncontrollable impulse for social justice.

However, China proper (excluding HK) has no world class city yet.

I really don't know its actual backing. Seriously.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoch_Times

It's basically like the anti-CCP version of a Marxist tabloid rag.

I admit the story is plausible enough and I've heard of similar accounts before. But the source! It's like having the National Inquirer unearth Abu Ghraib. Sure it's a deadly serious matter, but it's the National Inquirer!

MA,

Yes, a common mistake for non-Californians. But really CA is like five or six states cramed in together. Most parts of CA resemble neighboring states (or countries...cough Mexico cough) than they do each other.

I figured you were extending the joke from earlier about outsider misperceptions about CA's beach bunny/tanned outdoorsy dude reputation.

I personally couldn't bear to live in SoCal. I was there for college and I hated my first two years there. The next two were kind of funny because I still didn't like SoCal but made good friends with people who were walking valley girl cliches.

Compared to SoCal, BA weather and traffic is pretty nice and you catch glimpses of green here and there. However, BA's natural beauty is a bit exaggerated. The Marin Headlands and Mt. Tam are nice, but otherwise, BA is not a great access point to the outdoors. Pt. Reyes is at least an hour away, Yosemite is at least 2.5 hrs away, and most of the Sierras is 4 or 5 hours away.

google,

To be fair, Falun Gong is a fairly crazy cult modelled on Scientology (no medicine, attracting lots of sick people hoping for a cheap cure-all), so a slightly higher than average incidence of death should not be a surprise.

The other thing that my parents used to bring up about the GLP and CR is how the experience utterly destroyed the Chinese morality and civil society. Chinese people today are on average quite selfish and self centered. According to my parents, back in the 50s and 60s the people cared much more about each other and their community, and venerated the CCP leadership. Nowadays, people are so callous that there are often reports of public rapes and beatings in crowded areas, where nobody in the crowd lifted a finger to help the victim.

MA,

It really depends on when you visit BA. Come November through May and you'll see green hills. Come March through June and you'll see some wildflowers, but it gets brown quickly afterwards. I guess that's what goes for seasons in the BA.

However, PNW summers are particularly glorious. I took a short roadtrip one summer up the 101 to Mt. Hood and Mt. Rainier, and the blooms at Paradise were like a dream. You guys have foxgloves and beargrass and avalanch lilies growing willynilly everywhere, and you have blackberries the size of my big toe just growing in ditches next to the road. B

I hated LA. Maybe it's not so bad on the westside but once you get into the valleys, the smog is just horrible in the summer and there's very little tree cover. The nice neighborhoods with huge water bills look okay, but the rest of the place was just depressing.

And the dust is horrible too. My (fairly new) college dorm got more dust accumulating in a week than my parents' home in VA would get in 3 months.

NorCal also has slightly better roads. SoCal roads are just unbelievably bad and congested

And the dust is horrible too. My (fairly new) college dorm got more dust accumulating in a week than my parents’ home in VA would get in 3 months

astrid,

You're right on the money here. I recall being shocked at how infrequently I could get away with dusting my apartment or washing my car when I lived in Atlanta. In L.A., you pretty much have to vacuum & dust your place at least weekly, or it really builds up and coats everything. If you don't wash your car at least bi-monthly, it starts to look abandoned.

MA,

I don't know what part of SoCal you're talking about (south OC maybe?) but most of L.A. and the Inland Empire is a polluted toilet. You must have visited some very select areas. Certainly not downtown, Hollywood or the Valleys.

The other thing that my parents used to bring up about the GLP and CR is how the experience utterly destroyed the Chinese morality and civil society. Chinese people today are on average quite selfish and self centered.

This is so sad. :(

Umm, you may want to read your history before making such stupid comments. The Great Leap Forward caused 20-30 MILLION Chinese to die of starvation. And the Cultural Revolution, whilst not as lethal, seriously screwed their society up for decades.

These are extreme tragedies but I doubt we can prevent similar disasters from happening again sometime, somewhere. :(

The flu pandemic in 1918 killed 20-40 millions. Are human catastrophes worse than natural calamities?

Peter P,

I think so. Other than famine, natural disasters tend to play out faster and be less traumatic. There's also less bad blood after the fact.

huh?

I hate all you hurricanes, yer good for nuttin' An you earhtquakers, I'm not gonna forgit, I can't stand what ya dun to us, we'se enemies now ferever!

Yep, I agree, bad blood usually follows the human tragedies. Tsunamis, fire and earthquakes, that's just any old indiscriminate bloodin', ya know.

"Speaking [tangentially] of realtwhore comments… one of the guests at a party I went to recently was a realtwhore.

She kept whining about how the “Main Street Media” (sic) was being pessimistic and scaring off the buyers from this wonderful buyers market.

So I think I heard wrong, so I say ‘what media?’

And she goes, ‘The Main Street Media, you know - newspapers and tv’.

I tried not to laugh out loud, and the cocktail I was drinking nearly snorted out my nose…

SP"

She's a walking example of "If you think education is expensive..."

I don't think one should prepare for the eurology of the US economy.

I am not sure about India, but I know the engineering situations in China very well, since a few of my friends are running big outsourcing outfits in China taking projects from Japan and the US. Their coders are surely cheap compared to us ($1000 USD/ month), but far from being good. Most medium to high level engineering projects cannot be outsourced, and experienced coders over there command easily $2K USD / month, although his skills are not that advanced measured by our standard, his cost is staggeringly expensive if you take into consideration of the admin cost required on top of his $2K/m salary. The consensus is, China will hit a glass ceiling trying to climb up the food chain.

If you have ever been to the recruiting fairs at the top Chinese universities, which I have, you will have even a more sober picture of the country. English is the number one priority on their list, so you can find a lot of fluent English speakers - with little engineering or science skills, because those creme de la creme engineers are already on their way to the US and Europe trying to compete with engineers here on equal footing by becoming one of the local guys. So what's left are pretty mediocre quality engineers who can just get the basics done.

Regarding innovation, I am not going to cast my bet on a country with a Geat Firewall.

Organ harvesting in China is true, because I know someone (American) who is an investor in such an organ harvesting system. It is an extremely lucrative business, and the paying patients come mainly from developed countries. Organs are typically sourced from prisoners on the death row, but occasionally you do get desperate village peasants who want to raise enough money for their kids' education.

While it seems very unethical on surface, I am not sure if I should condemn it or actually promote it. The only problem I have with this is, the money earned from organ harvesting is passed on to the corrupt officials along the "value chain" instead of being given back to the family of those on the death row. If you have a beloved one who is dying because he can't find a suitable organ donor, would you want to buy an organ for him from the black market? I know I would.

In an idealistic world, all life is created equal, or at least that is what we strive for. But in reality, if you are a peasant in China with absolutely no hope of making it, and life is absolutely misery, so you'd like to sell one of your kidneys so that your kid will stand a chance in the future, should you be denied that opportunity? Perhaps not. It is the same thing as prison labor, I personally have no problems with prison labor if they are not forced to work in a compromising situation.

"You’re right on the money here. I recall being shocked at how infrequently I could get away with dusting my apartment or washing my car when I lived in Atlanta. In L.A., you pretty much have to vacuum & dust your place at least weekly, or it really builds up and coats everything."

I'd gladly wash/dust weekly--Atlanta=shithole best seen either in your rear view mirror or from 30,000 feet ;)

I’d gladly wash/dust weekly–Atlanta=shithole best seen either in your rear view mirror or from 30,000 feet.

Huh? If I had my way (i.e., with a job offer in hand), I'd already be back there. Atlanta is MUCH nicer than L.A.

But in reality, if you are a peasant in China with absolutely no hope of making it, and life is absolutely misery, so you’d like to sell one of your kidneys so that your kid will stand a chance in the future, should you be denied that opportunity?

And the little fine line is extended to include selling one daughter so the others may survive, it's called slavery.

China is practising defacto slavery as we speak.

There are two kinds of registry, one for the peasants, one for the urban people, all major cities have their own registry. If you don't belong to a city's registry, you are denied rights of free education, or medicare or even job opportunities in that city. Although it is getting better than before, the most lucrative jobs preclude migrants from the countryside no matter how outstanding their ability is. The Chinese registry system is modelled after the serf labor establishments set up by Peter the Great of Russia.

That's why we can afford such cheap electronics or clothings from China because peasant labor are paid next to nothing, while the government doesn't have to take care of them in terms of social security or medicare. About 900 million peasants in China fall into such a category, and the Chinese that can make it out of China legally are mostly urban population, it is also understandable why these Chinese defend their abandoned country so relentlessly because they are the beneficiaries of such a system.

Although China doesn't have a caste system like India, it is a true caste system in practice, except there are only two castes, the peasants (slaves) and the urban population.

It is sad, but an economic reality. When you have millions of excess labor supply, they are willing to do anything to get by. The sadder truth for all of us living comfortably in an already developed country is, due to globalization and free flow of capital, our standard of living will have to converge with that of the Chinese pseudo-slaves. Either they rise up to meet ours, or we sink down to meet theirs.

tsusiat,

That is funny, I'm gonna try that the next time the weather in DC gets above 100 F. Incidentally my boyfriend recently declared the sun his mortal enemy. The sun got the best of him, since Pleasanton went up to 113 F soon after he made the declaration, he said that it was warm even with the AC on and living in a first floor apartment.

OO,

Yup. I wish Westerners were less hung up on bio-ethics and Judeo-Christian ideals about what's acceptable and what is not. Homo economicus is ruled to be unethical by people who have a 2000 year old value system that they're constantly reinterpreting for the sake of political expediency.

I actually like the idea of a limited organ market. Properly overseen, there's virtually no downside for any of the players involved. Some parents in China would happily give their lives if that would help establish their kids into a prosperous life.

I think you're exaggerating the strictness of the rural/urban divide a bit too far. For a select few, it is possible to test into a university and then work towards an urban life. Also, many rural registered people do live in big cities and quite a few of them have quite a successful life - they obviously aren't educated or connected enough to work as executives or cadres, but many do fairly well for themselves.

Also, not quite all the outstanding people have left :) I have a second cousin who is quite brillant technically and very good with people, and she's staying in China because she really loves her job. I am trying to convince her to emigrate to Canada though...

"I’d gladly wash/dust weekly–Atlanta=shithole best seen either in your rear view mirror or from 30,000 feet.

Huh? If I had my way (i.e., with a job offer in hand), I’d already be back there. Atlanta is MUCH nicer than L.A."

Really? How so?

I can only assume HARM is either an indoor person or immune to heat and mosquitoes. I've never been to Atlanta (never ever had any reason to go there) but it always seemed like it would be extremely generic, sort of a slightly polished up Houston.

Astrid, your picture of Atlanta is generous and as for Georgia, it is my 51st choice out of the 50 states--I can't wait to get back West....

Come on, it's can't be that bad. Surely Nevada and North Dakota and Indiana and Ohio and Houston are even less pleasant!

Astrid, actually it is--I don't remember [in recent history anyway] living someplace I liked less. Then again one gets spoiled living in places like La Jolla, Honolulu and Maui ;) Btw, there's not a thing wrong with Nevada--at least Vegas or more accurately Henderson [SE suburb of Las Vegas]. Henderson was NICE when I first lived there ('96-'00).

Sign me "The Lights Were Never On In Georgia" :) lol

"Then again one gets spoiled living in places like La Jolla, Honolulu and Maui"

Atlanta would definitely be the dog in that bunch :P I do find Nevada to be quite depressing. The landscape is just so arid and devoid of color.

"Atlanta would definitely be the dog in that bunch :P I do find Nevada to be quite depressing. The landscape is just so arid and devoid of color."

Most DEFINITELY the Dog....
==
Depressing? Henderson's nice (or at least it used to be).
Devoid of color? Red Rock/Valley of Fire are worth a look....

--How many days left in this shitbox known as "the A-T-L"? Don't know exactly but I know one thing for sure-- I'll miss it about as much as a field audit ;)

But Valley of Fire is virtually in AZ/UT! :)

It's just hard to imagine that ATL is so bad. It's just so bland. Miami or Houston has just got to be worse.

If all else US fails to live down to ATL, just remember it's 110 F + humidity in the Persian Gulf.

"But Valley of Fire is virtually in AZ/UT! :)

It’s just hard to imagine that ATL is so bad. It’s just so bland. Miami or Houston has just got to be worse.

If all else US fails to live down to ATL, just remember it’s 110 F + humidity in the Persian Gulf."

The Valley of Fire I'm referring to is definitely in Nevada [North of Vegas on I-15 as I recall]...were you thinking of Sedona?

I can't speak about Houston only having been at the airport...but Miami definitely has it's plusses!

Persian Gulf? Been there, done that! ['91] NEVER again!

I think I'm just going to go somewhere new--Capri or Venice should do nicely....

Then again one gets spoiled living in places like La Jolla, Honolulu and Maui.

Well now, that's hardly a fair comparison, is it? Almost anything compared to Hawaii looks like shit. La Jolla is one of the most beautiful (and most expensive) coastal cities in CA, so not even that's a fair comparison. Maybe La Jolla vs. Buckhead would be a little more fair, but then again, Buckhead doesn't have a beach. How about Buckhead vs. Savannah?

I still contend you can live far better on a middle-class salary in ATL than almost anywhere in CA.

"Maybe La Jolla vs. Buckhead..."

Buckhead [where I slum- I mean live now] doesn't hold a candle to La Jolla [living ON Prospect Street is DA BOMB!]....

"I still contend you can live far better on a middle-class salary in ATL than almost anywhere in CA."

Who said anything about middle-class salary?

Just kidding! ;)

Seriously, GA just don't cut it after living West--I'm goin back!

goober,

"“big-city” stuff. Smog, rudness, bad schools, strip clubs, a healthy crime rate and of course over priced real estate. Bland just doesn’t fit."

Those sound like pretty bland big city stuff to me:) I guess I'm looking for some culture or some sort of edginess that distinguish it from other cities. Strip clubs, congested roads, and a par share of social troubles doesn't really give me that.

I actually dislike all big city environments except for SF and Shanghai. The former because it's not that big and very pretty, the latter because of family and how far my restaurant going dollars can go there.

This is unreal:

http://atlanta.craigslist.org/rfs/191035894.html

goober,

Maybe that's so. But Golden Gate Park and surrounding recreational area is extremely pretty.

Having said that, I haven't been to SF proper in years. My boyfriend and I usually shop and eat in Berkeley, when we feel the need for that typical BA experience.

Glen,

You mean because the price seems so low?

The sq footage is rather low (since there's probably no basement) and I assume Lawrenceville is not an up and coming neighborhood, but it does seem like a nice, gracefully constructed home. I noticed that the new south is obsessed about new McMansion housing so they don't like older housing stock, even though the older ones have much nicer lots and more usable space.

I wouldn't mind if something like that came up in the BA. Except it would go for $2 million, just for the 1acre of land.

It takes time and possibly several moves to find the right fit for one's life. I agree with SHTF assessment that it takes decades possibly to accomplish what wouldn't anywhere else. California pretty much has stuck it's nose up at the middle income citizen. It's really sad no wonder many of us left or are leaving soon. With all of it's troubles (and there are many) the one that will be the most responcible for exodus is affordabilty or lack thereof. It's a hard pill to swallow after all your hard work and education you can barely eke out an existance. The anger stays with you for a long time and you stay longer than you should. Years go by you haven't made much gains and then we get a real spike of inflation. Everything goes up in a short amount of time housing, energy, health care ect. You feel so weary maybe a bit depressed and think to yourself you should be further along. You finally come to the conclusion maybe I can do better elsewhere. It takes time to muster up the courage you do it and you try another locale. Maybe it works maybe not. But you ke trying until you find your home at last. One you can afford

Hey Liz ,

The world as we knew it has changed dramatically! Upper middle class is now 200k a year at least in the west. Wages have been largely stagnant int that region but the cost of living tripled. There are areas of the country that pay the same as california but housing is half to a third as much. My big question is WHY? And why hasn't anybody looked into valid reasons for it?

I never thought I'd live to see an educated person not be able to earn enough for the basic home. If you look atr the majority of people in that region they are at most middle income