patrick.net

Tenouncetrout says

Oh shag off! you elected this Dolt armed with miss information and half truths.

'
In other words, Leigh, don't ask so many questions. Their only answer is "Obama sucks"...

Yeah Leigh in other words Poo-tattoo is taking over my dialog in this thread. Please direct any more questions to him. He will be answering questions at this point.

If I recall through out Obama's campaign I saying the exact same thing about Obama.
His campaign lies sounded like 2am coke dreams. "Where's the details..."

And look how GREAT he turned out?

Tenouncetrout says

Yeah Leigh in other words Poo-tattoo is taking over my dialog in this thread. Please direct any more questions to him. He will be answering questions at this point.
If I recall through out Obama’s campaign I saying the exact same thing about Obama.
His campaign lies sounded like 2am coke dreams. “Where’s the details…”
And look how GREAT he turned out?

And again. "Obama sucks".

Tenouncetrout says

And look how GREAT he turned out?

While I don't agree with everything he says & does, he's certainly not doing a bad job. He inherited a hell of a mess. It's easy to blame him for everything, tho.

Anyone notice that every controversial bill has his name on it? Obamacare, Obamanomics, etc. He's just a guy who's trying to fix our biggest economic crisis since the Depression. It's short-sighted and detracts from the actual issues.

I doubt anyone here could do better.

Where were they when the prescription drug plan was passed? Why wasn't it called Bushacare? That particular legislation is far, far more wasteful and a far bigger gift to the pharmaceutical companies than the recent health care law. Where were the protests then?

Leigh says

ZippyDDoodah says

And when asked to give specific examples they can’t pull one out of their arse.

I’ll name two big ones, Tea Party types were strongly opposed to TARP and the pork laden stimulus bill. If you will recall, it was Bush, with Obama’s support and teaming up with Nancy Pelosi with Dem majorities who pushed through the TARP bailout, opposed only by House Republicans. Tea Party types didn’t like it a bit. Can you honestly say that you’ve never heard those specific examples coming from the Tea Party? I believe that you’re being dishonest.

I think what has happened is that the TP Movement has been invaded by radicals and uniformed folks egged on by the likes of Glenn Beck. Kind of like how Anarchists take over the spotlight of leftist movements.

You made the claim that Tea Partiers couldn't pull any specific reasons "out of their arse" why they were upset. I pointed out two big reasons, the HC bill is another. You're being incredibly dishonest by claiming that the Tea Partiers are just angry without a reason.

ZippyDDoodah says

You made the claim that Tea Partiers couldn’t pull any specific reasons “out of their arse” why they were upset. I pointed out two big reasons, the HC is another. You’re being incredibly dishonest by claiming that the Tea Partiers are just angry without a reason.

But that's being dishonest because there was more wasteful spending in the previous 8 years of Bush than there was under Obama. Again, where were the tea partiers then? Why all of the sudden once Obama was elected did they start to protest? If it was truly wasteful spending or taxes, then they would have been protesting for 8 years...

Where were they when the prescription drug plan was passed?

We were criticizing Bush for it. Here is a National Review article from 2005 openly slamming Bush for the Prescription drug "fiasco" http://ur.lc/is6 . The big lie from the left is that conservatives/libertarians were "silent" when Bush spent like a drunken sailor (although the largest deficits under the Bush admin were when a Democratic congress was in control of the budget). Obama supporters are simply lying their @sses off when they make the claim that conservatives/libertarians were silent over Bush's spending.. it's the narrative they're pushing, no matter what the actual truth is/was.

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecedented magnitude of it really triggered action.

But that’s being dishonest because there was more wasteful spending in the previous 8 years of Bush than there was under Obama.

Oh really? Buy yourself a clue http://ur.lc/fkx . And that monster 2008 deficit under "Bush", that happened when Democrats were in full control of the House and Senate. Congress controls spending.. You can thank me later for educating you.

I love how so many Tea Party detractors claiming the Tea Partiers are so ill-informed, are themselves the least informed.

ZippyDDoodah says

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecented magnitude of it really triggered action.

lol--is that how they are justifying it? OK--there was some imaginary line that once is was crossed spurred the action?

ZippyDDoodah says

Oh really? Buy yourself a clue http://ur.lc/fkx . And that monster 2008 deficit under “Bush”, that happened when Democrats were in full control of the House and Senate. Congress controls spending.. You can thank me later for educating you.
I love how so many Tea Party detractors claiming the Tea Partiers are so ill-informed, are themselves the least informed.

Wasteful spending and deficits are two very different things Zippy. You can hide a LOT of wasteful spending during a booming economy.... And normal spending will trigger large deficits during a down economy. So, let's try to compare apples to apples.

An important distinction is where the money was spent. Bush wasted untold billions on Iraqi infrastructure. Obama’s spending has been directed at American infrastructure.

Did our defense budget drop under Obama? Or did you simply pull that "fact" out of your arse when it was pointed out that deficit spending under Obama has been MASSIVELY increased over any deficits during the Bush administration?

If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7

you're simply clueless, which explains why you're an Obama defender. On another thread Nomo, you threw out the "fact" that health insurance companies pay out only 17% of premiums on health services. When citation was provided to you which drastically contradicted that claim, you told us that you had a secret report in your office which would prove your point. You were lying then and you're lying again now.

elliemae says

Tenouncetrout says

And look how GREAT he turned out?

While I don’t agree with everything he says & does, he’s certainly not doing a bad job. He inherited a hell of a mess. It’s easy to blame him for everything, tho.
Anyone notice that every controversial bill has his name on it? Obamacare, Obamanomics, etc. He’s just a guy who’s trying to fix our biggest economic crisis since the Depression. It’s short-sighted and detracts from the actual issues.
I doubt anyone here could do better.

Yeah He's doing such a bang up job, and the Tea Party is just a few disenchanted losers spinning their wheels in the park. And Sarah Palin is one Saturday Night Live appearance away from being president.

ZippyDDoodah says

If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7

Citizens against government waste is about as non-partisan as ACORN... Don't worry about the ties to Jack Abramoff--they don't mean anything, right?

tatupu70 says

ZippyDDoodah says

The growth of govt has been making a lot of centrists and conservatives angry for a long time. Obama/Pelosi made such a an incredible leap in deficit spending that the unprecented magnitude of it really triggered action.

lol–is that how they are justifying it? OK–there was some imaginary line that once is was crossed spurred the action?

Well, TBH, the $1T/yr deficit line was a pretty big one.

External national debt:

09/30/2005 $4.6T
09/29/2006 $4.8T
09/28/2007 $5.0T
09/02/2008 $5.5T
09/01/2009 $7.5T
04/01/2010 $8.3T

Of course, the 2003-2007 timeframe was juiced with several trillion of unsustainable private borrowing (largely distributed through the housing sector into the wider economy), and the system has been in the process of unwinding that since 1Q07.

1H10 came in at $800B/yr deficit -- that's on top of the $2T jump in FY09. This is quite a spending spree. The $1.8T added deficit over 18 months is enough to give 33M families $3000/mo of cold hard cash. Not that this would be economically viable but it does show the scale of spending involved.

The Tea Party contingent is largely (majority) non-apologetic Bush supporters so I don't feel the need to dig into the mud-slinging (that should be a sufficient indicator), but these are not normal times and what I've seen go down the past 2 years is not exactly encouraging. "I don't have any soluions, but I certainly admire the problem".

ZippyDDoodah says

An important distinction is where the money was spent. Bush wasted untold billions on Iraqi infrastructure. Obama’s spending has been directed at American infrastructure.

Did our defense budget drop under Obama? Or did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse when it was pointed out that deficit spending under Obama has been MASSIVELY increased over any deficits during the Bush administration?
If Obama is not wasting more $$, then why is Citizens against Government waste, the largest non-partisan watchdog group on wasteful spending rate the govt under Obama the most wasteful and non-transparent in modern history? http://ur.lc/is7
you’re simply clueless, which explains why you’re an Obama defender. On another thread Nomo, you threw out the “fact” that health insurance companies pay out only 17% of premiums on health services. When citation was provided to you which drastically contradicted that claim, you told us that you had a secret report in your office which would prove your point. You were lying then and you’re lying again now.

I always hate to confuse an idealogue with simple facts but the Iraq war was paid for almost totally with special off budget appropriations not out of the dod budget. So the dod budget wouldn't shrink even if Obama pulled everyone out of Iraq. As per the 2008 budget I don't remember Bush vetoing it, could you remind me about that?

That being said spending has to be reigned in and I don't think Obama is the man to do it. Of course Bush made the term spending like a drunken sailor an embarrasment to any drunken sailor I ever met so I don't know where we go from here.

I always hate to confuse an idealogue with simple facts but the Iraq war was paid for almost totally with special off budget appropriations not out of the dod budget.

I don't understand.. What's your point? The wars are funded by both DoD budget and emergency bills. So what does that have to do with my reply to the absurd claim that Obama was spending on infrastructure rather than on the war when in fact military spending under Obama has INCREASED?

Of course Bush made the term spending like a drunken sailor an embarrasment to any drunken sailor I ever met so I don’t know where we go from here.

If you weren't such an ideologue yourself, you'd admit that if Bush spent like a drunken sailor, then Obama is spending like the entire 7th fleet on a crack binge.. with an unlimited credit card.

Hilarious to see those who are/were quick to blame Bush for deficits (he deserves blame) either excuse Obama's far WORSE deficit spending or they are reluctant to similarly point the fingers of blame at Obama.

The Tea Party is not founded around solid ongoing core, they are the "militant wing of the Republican Party" energized & motivated by Obama. If John McCain were in office I'm quite certain people would be saying "What Party? Tea? Never heard of it." They were little more than a handful of people in unknown fringe group with Revolutionary War costume fetish prior to Obama being elected. Among Teabaggers, there is overwhelming love for Bush despite claims to the contrary.

Teabaggers only claim to be anti-bush because they see what a failure his policies were. Nevertheless, they have the same basic policy objectives:

- Lower taxes
- Don't cut spending on anything that matters
- Spend 20% of GDP on the military

If these people were truly about smaller government, they'd be working their asses off to get Ron Paul or some other rational and intelligent small government type into higher office, and they'd be campaigning against spending rather than taxes.

When I see "End Medicare, End Social Security, End the wars" signs at tea party protests I'll actually start to believe these people. Calling for lower taxes while simultaneously bemoaning the debt is hilarious.

When I see “End Medicare, End Social Security, End the wars” signs at tea party protests I’ll actually start to believe these people. Calling for lower taxes while simultaneously bemoaning the debt is hilarious.

Large majorities of Tea Party protesters would be happy as clams to opt out of Medicare and Social Security.. just as long as the govt pays us back with interest for all the social security taxes and Medicare taxes that we've paid into the system over the years. It's just another Ponzi promotion trying to use class warfare techniques to keep the fraud going. If Social Security and Medicare are such great deals, why are you liberal fascists so afraid to make it voluntary? Here's how we "fix" the broken system - Let people CHOOSE whether or not they want to participate in Social Security, Medicare or Obamacare.. not be forced into a system that is obviously dishonest, wasteful and fraud-ridden inside and out.

FDR promised an immediate windfall of unearned old age benefits in exchange for selling future generations into debt slavery. They bought it hook, line and sinker. It worked so well that every liberal fascist scheme since FDR has been a variation of the same tactic. As a result, the social security system is broke with no plan in place to make it solvent. Medicare is on the fast track to bankruptcy too. Fannie and Freddie are similar govt. scams, promising "affordable" housing to anyone regardless of creditworthiness. Leftists have taken America from being a hard-working, honest-days-work society to a place where scamming the system and playing honest people for fools is the modus operandi for government, big corporations, and politicians. Govt needs to be stripped of many of it's non-constitutional power grabs which are bankrupting and demoralizing this country.. that's what the Tea Party movement is about

As far as I know, the tea party is about fair taxation, pro constitution (freedom/liberty), and government responsibility (no bailouts, military defense, not offense, etc). It's more Libertarian than "Conservative". Now that Faux News has taken over, it's turned into: ni**as/monkeys, white/anglo, anti-immigrant/hispanic, even KKK, etc.

Any time a group of people rise up to protest a corrupt government who have the power to change it, that group is ultimately infiltrated, then discredited through the media.

Better start thinking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oel9WmYl2wQ

Nomograph says

ZippyDDoodah says
did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse
Yup, it came along when I yanked the anal beads out. God, that felt good.

Nomo:
How many times do I have to ask you to warn me not to take a drink before I read your posts? Once again, snorted pop outta the nostrils.

I'll bet Mrs. Nomo spends a great deal of time laughing her ass off around you.

It’s more Libertarian than “Conservative”. Now that Faux News has taken over, it’s turned into: ni**as/monkeys, white/anglo, anti-immigrant/hispanic, even KKK, etc.

I'd bet a large amount of $$$ that you're a liar talking out of your ass and that you've never been to a Tea Party gathering. What you've written is a smear, nothing more. I live in Houston, TX. I've been to two Tea Party protests with my family, I've walked the crowd and never seen anything even remotely close to something which could be fairly described as "KKK" or "ni**s/monkeys" as you've stated. In fact, with the black headline speakers at the protests, the Tea Partiers would be more accurately characterized as 'nigra lovers'.

housingcasino says

Better start drinking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oel9WmYl2wQ

There, I think that's a better prescription. I'm sure the Tea Party folks would be able to follow that direction. I'm not sure that they can comply with your other prescription. We want to be as inclusive as possible, now don't we?

elliemae says

Nomograph says

ZippyDDoodah says

did you simply pull that “fact” out of your arse

Yup, it came along when I yanked the anal beads out. God, that felt good.

Nomo:

How many times do I have to ask you to warn me not to take a drink before I read your posts? Once again, snorted pop outta the nostrils.
I’ll bet Mrs. Nomo spends a great deal of time laughing her ass off around you.

Wow, one wonders with curiosity what the home life of the Nomos must be like. One is pulling beads out of his arse and the other is laughing out of her ass until it falls off. So you practice this simultaneously?

Elliemae, didn't anyone ever tell you that liquids should never be anywhere near the computer? And if you have liquid near you computer, vodka is the best, it'll evaporate quickly if spewed out of your mouth. (Well, it's an excuse anyway.)

ZippyDDoodah says

Large majorities of Tea Party protesters would be happy as clams to opt out of Medicare and Social Security.. just as long as the govt pays us back with interest for all the social security taxes and Medicare taxes that we’ve paid into the system over the years.

When you get your tax refund back, do you get interest for the money you "loaned" the government by virtue of overpayment during the year? Of course not.

Why should they pay you back "with interest"? This baffles me. Social Security is clearly an insurance program, whereby this year's contributions are used to pay this years expenses. It is not a "savings account" in any sense. If you want your lifetime inflation-adjusted contributions back I maybe could see that, but asking for interest just shows an absurd misunderstanding of what the program actually is.

simchaland says

Elliemae, didn’t anyone ever tell you that liquids should never be anywhere near the computer? And if you have liquid near you computer, vodka is the best, it’ll evaporate quickly if spewed out of your mouth. (Well, it’s an excuse anyway.)

Great, now you tell me. I'll just hop in the car and drive 25 miles to the nearest state-owned liquor store and buy some. Except it's Sunday and it's closed...

It is not a “savings account” in any sense. If you want your lifetime inflation-adjusted contributions back I maybe could see that, but asking for interest just shows an absurd misunderstanding of what the program actually is.

So you're admitting that many/most people can never hope to get out of Social security what they put in it? That makes it a Ponzi scheme right? And what does that make you personally, excusing and defending a system which isn't much different from the system which Bernie Madoff ran? If it's "absurd" to expect to receive a payment with reasonable interest, then you're defending a scam, nothing more.

Social Security is clearly a socialist institution whereby this year’s contributions are used to pay this years expenses. It’s a form of insurance

Why do you liberal fascists insist that Social security and medicare be MANDATORY? It's because you think you know what's best for everyone else.

Wild Turkey evaps quick

ZippyDDoodah says

So you’re admitting that many/most people can never hope to get out of Social security what they put it? That makes it a Ponzi scheme right? And what does that make you personally, excusing and defending a system which isn’t much different from the system which Bernie Madoff ran? If it’s “aburd” to expect to receive a payment with reasonable interest, then you’re defending a scam, nothing more.

So when you pay money to HMO every year, do you expect you will get out what you put in? What if you don't have any health problems, aren't you being cheated? That money is just gone. Worse yet it's probably used to treat some undeserving layabout. When you hit the limit of what you put into the HMO do they start pulling money out of your bank account?

I'm not interested in hypotheticals or "how it ought to be?". Here's how it is. Deal with it.

So when you pay money to HMO every year, do you expect you will get out what you put in?

Except that Social security was never intended to be or sold as an "insurance". It was a retirement income for retirees. You're dishonest as hell to suggest otherwise

elliemae says

simchaland says

Elliemae, didn’t anyone ever tell you that liquids should never be anywhere near the computer? And if you have liquid near you computer, vodka is the best, it’ll evaporate quickly if spewed out of your mouth. (Well, it’s an excuse anyway.)

Great, now you tell me. I’ll just hop in the car and drive 25 miles to the nearest state-owned liquor store and buy some. Except it’s Sunday and it’s closed…

Yeah, that sucks. I'm glad I don't live in Utah, no offense meant. I don't like religious zealots controlling government telling me how I should live my life. It reminds me of the 8 years of darkness we had under that twit GWB and the reason I don't ever want to visit his buddies in Saudi Arabia. And it reminds me of all the LDS money funneled into California to pass Prop 8. Grumble, grumble, grumble...

Bap33 says

Wild Turkey evaps quick

Yes it does. Be sure to get the 101. It actually has the best flavor. I like to sip mine over ice.

Wow, Bap33! Did we just agree on something?

ZippyDDoodah says

Except that Social security was never intended to be or sold as an “insurance”. It was a retirement income for retirees. You’re dishonest as hell to suggest otherwise

It's referred to as the "Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) program." What do think FICA stands for? Federal INSURANCE Contributions Act! It's plainly labelled as such, and anyone who cannot comprehend that probably shouldn't be allowed to handle sharp objects.

Social security is considered old age "retirement income" no matter what the govt. names it. To suggest otherwise is dishonest as hell.

Social Security is plainly labelled as an "Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance (OASDI) program". Ignorance of the fact it's a mandatory INSURANCE program is not the fault of the agency which informs you otherwise in all documents.

I have no doubt the 50+% of the Tea Party that gladly partake of unemployment insurance, MediCare, MedicAid, and Social Security are willing to play "jailhouse lawyer" when they need something and comb through every piece of paper to get the outcome they want. It takes a real special type to deliberately misunderstand the entire basis of the operation along the way. Tea Party strikes me as the worst of the Boomers, entitled as hell and raging self-deluded hypocrites about it. I'll raise a glass of beer tomorrow night over dinner to the Teabaggers, here's to you Mr. "keep the gubmit out of my MediCare!"

ZippyDDoodah says

Large majorities of Tea Party protesters would be happy as clams to opt out of Medicare and Social Security.. just as long as the govt pays us back with interest for all the social security taxes and Medicare taxes that we’ve paid into the system over the years.

It's that kind of bullshit qualification that shows the lack of conviction. "Oh yeah, we'll give it up as long as you do this first". BULLSHIT. Call for an end to it, stand up for something, grow a fucking pair for christ's sake.

I call bullshit on anyone claiming that they want to opt out of medicare. Quite simply, you'd have no way of getting health care when you're over 65. The same goes for social security, since hardly any of these people have any retirement to speak of.

ZippyDDoodah says

Except that Social security was never intended to be or sold as an “insurance”. It was a retirement income for retirees. You’re dishonest as hell to suggest otherwise

You're joking, right? Do you even know what OSDI stands for? Medicare and social security were clearly identified as insurance-like systems from their inception. The fact that you're not aware of that tells me that you clearly don't care enough what you claim to not like.

Frankly, I'm not a fan of social security and medicare. I don't believe that they're very well designed systems, and I'd fully support ending them. I do actually understand how they work, though, which is the least I'd expect of anyone complaining about them.

The "large majorities" thing sounds like more bullshit to me. The tea party rhetoric during the health care debate was all about being afraid that obama was going to hurt medicare. I sincerely doubt that anyone openly advocating for an end to these two programs would win any state in a general election.

I also notice that you ignore the issue of the military. We spent a trillion dollars on it last year. You can not claim that you're for small government if you endorse spending a trillion dollars on the military.

ZippyDDoodah says

Social Security is clearly a socialist institution whereby this year’s contributions are used to pay this years expenses. It’s a form of insurance

Why do you liberal fascists insist that Social security and medicare be MANDATORY?

You know, if you're going to ask a question it's polite to not stuff words in our mouths to make an answer to make a point. That's just unresponsive abuse.

Assuming you're not just trolling here. Tough to tell, really.

Anyhoo, my answer to this question, which I repeat whenever I can, is that all taxes and other mandatory contributions taken at gunpoint come out of rents (and land values).

By mandating as much as we can from paychecks, we take this money out of the flow that goes to our daily living costs, and for nearly everyone the dominant daily living cost is the rent or mortgage payment.

neo-classical economics is called the dismal science because it insists difficult choices must be made, there is no such thing as a free lunch. I'm convinced by Dr Mason Gaffney and others' argument that a high-tax and high-service mixed economy is more optimal.

ZippyDDoodah says

It’s because you think you know what’s best for everyone else.

No, SS came about because it was empirically obvious that people were failing to save enough to get through their old age. Medicare, too, was a government response to a social need.

Liberal fascism, elitism, whatever, if it works better than the status quo ante I'm all for it. Ideology is for suckers.

simchaland says

And it reminds me of all the LDS money funneled into California to pass Prop 8. Grumble, grumble, grumble…

Sorry 'bout that. MF's collect 10% of member's income so they can dictate how other people live. If I were the Queen of Everything, I'd change that. You should be able to marry whomever you want, and it doesn't affect me.

Unless you try to marry animals. Because I've heard the argument that if gays can marry each other, next you'll want to marry animals and mine are really cute and remain unmarried.

Ellen Degeneres had a routine about how marrying a goat would run into some snags, such as when you're reading the morning paper and the goat eats it. She obviously doesn't know her goats - because they eat shiny things like ads & coupon sheets. So unless you're a cheap gay goat-marrying person, your morning paper is safe. But I digress.

My goats aren't the people marrying type. So keep your hooves off my critters. That goes for chickens and all sorts of domesticated animals. And no getting them drunk on the wild turkey. If I see you attempting to convert my critters into the gay lifestyle (such as their caring about their appearance) I'll be looking for you. I'll give you a pass on my lesbian dog that not only humps a pillow on a daily basis but has a thing going on with the female neighbor dog... it's too late for her.

OMG! I just outed my pup! Now they'll never vote me the Queen of Everything!

I'll recommend your pups to this sanctuary. And everything's super, thanks for asking.