patrick.net

No, we're right to expect the Government to be a "GOVERNMENT".
What we fail to realize is we're out of people capable of making decisions for the Good of the People, instead of for the short term good for a few Corporations.

For me not having BIG Government simply means, having a government that doesn't Tackle, Taser, Gag, and Thump the living shit out Civilians that dare to question them.

What does Ron Paul think about the People that get roughed up every single God Damned time they ask a Liberal a tough question? ...and in or near public buildings built for "The People, By the People"?

item here:

Rachel Maddow 'pwns' Obama's speech:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/17/rachel-maddows-oval-offic_n_615515.html

Its a wonderful response and exactly the correct one. God, if only this could have been the response and action...

watch it, its enthralling, and here are the three major points:

Maddow said she wished Obama had announced three major developments in the response to the disaster:
1. "Never again, will any company, anyone, be allowed to drill in a location where they are incapable of dealing with the potential consequences of that drilling."
2. "I'm announcing a new federal command specifically for containment and cleanup of oil that has already entered the Gulf of Mexico, with a priority on protecting shoreline that can still be saved; shoreline that is vulnerable to oil that has not yet been hit."
3. "I no longer say that we must get off oil like every president before me has said too. I no longer say that we must get off oil. We will get off oil and here's how: The United States Senate will pass an energy bill. This year."

You Liberals and your fantasy government, you even fantasize about what "YOU WISH" those Bastards "Would Say", after you've fudged every number and pulled every trick to get the pricks elected.

Good Freaking Lord!

Pa-f@cking-thetic!

It seems that Obama is in a hypnotic trance of some kind.
However, he did not cause the oil spill or the real estate fiasco or the recession.

E-man says

This lady should move into a cave. Gotta love the people driving around in SUV, flying in private jets and telling everyone to be environmentally friendly and getting off oil, blah blah blah. What a bunch of hypocrits.

Don't be an ass. Ignore the messenger, hear the message.

mikey says

It seems that Obama is in a hypnotic trance of some kind.
However, he did not cause the oil spill or the real estate fiasco or the recession.

No, but sadly at this point his administration is facilitating and continuing the errors that have allowed the BP event to happen, like he's doing with so many of the errors & crimes he inherited from the previous administration. God, I just wish for some real action from this administration!

Tenouncetrout says

You Liberals and your fantasy government, you even fantasize about what “YOU WISH” those Bastards “Would Say”, after you’ve fudged every number and pulled every trick to get the pricks elected.
Good Freaking Lord!
Pa-f@cking-thetic!

You conservatives, any excuse to attack a 'liberal'. Pathetic. GFL. It doesn't even matter what the issue is anymore does it?

..and here's the difference: "Liberals" are very willing to criticize and critique 'their own', but "Conservatives" will ignore and defend the faults of their leaders and attack anything that comes from 'the others', like pack animals with a team sport mentality.

Just watch the GD thing.

and here's something everyone should read. I'll post the article here because I'm pretty sure a few of you don't bother to click links before racking off some crack based only on who it was that posted the link.

Sharon Astyk at ScienceBlogs points the way to a seriously scary comment thread at The Oil Drum, a sounding board for, among others, many petroleum geologists and oil professionals. The comment in question is from a seemingly very knowledgable "dougr." Some of it follows verbatim below.

"Is the BP Gusher Unstoppable?

"All the actions and few tid bits of information all lead to one inescapable conclusion. The well pipes below the sea floor are broken and leaking. Now you have some real data of how BP's actions are evidence of that, as well as some murky statement from "BP officials" confirming the same.

"To those of us outside the real inside loop, yet still fairly knowledgeable, [the failure of Top Kill] was a major confirmation of what many feared. That the system below the sea floor has serious failures of varying magnitude in the complicated chain, and it is breaking down and it will continue to.

"What does this mean?

"It means they will never cap the gusher after the wellhead. They cannot...the more they try and restrict the oil gushing out the bop?...the more it will transfer to the leaks below. Just like a leaky garden hose with a nozzle on it. When you open up the nozzle?...it doesn't leak so bad, you close the nozzle?...it leaks real bad, same dynamics. It is why they sawed the riser off...or tried to anyway...but they clipped it off, to relieve pressure on the leaks "down hole". I'm sure there was a bit of panic time after they crimp/pinched off the large riser pipe and the Diamond wire saw got stuck and failed...because that crimp diverted pressure and flow to the rupture down below.

"Contrary to what most of us would think as logical to stop the oil mess, actually opening up the gushing well and making it gush more became direction BP took after confirming that there was a leak. In fact if you note their actions, that should become clear. They have shifted from stopping or restricting the gusher to opening it up and catching it. This only makes sense if they want to relieve pressure at the leak hidden down below the seabed.....and that sort of leak is one of the most dangerous and potentially damaging kind of leak there could be. It is also inaccessible which compounds our problems. There is no way to stop that leak from above, all they can do is relieve the pressure on it and the only way to do that right now is to open up the nozzle above and gush more oil into the gulf and hopefully catch it, which they have done, they just neglected to tell us why, gee thanks.

"A down hole leak is dangerous and damaging for several reasons. There will be erosion throughout the entire beat up, beat on and beat down remainder of the "system" including that inaccessible leak. The same erosion I spoke about in the first post is still present and has never stopped, cannot be stopped, is impossible to stop and will always be present in and acting on anything that is left which has crude oil "Product" rushing through it. There are abrasives still present, swirling flow will create hot spots of wear and this erosion is relentless and will always be present until eventually it wears away enough material to break it's way out. It will slowly eat the bop away especially at the now pinched off riser head and it will flow more and more. Perhaps BP can outrun or keep up with that out flow with various suckage methods for a period of time, but eventually the well will win that race, just how long that race will be?...no one really knows....However now?...there are other problems that a down hole leak will and must produce that will compound this already bad situation.

"This down hole leak will undermine the foundation of the seabed in and around the well area. It also weakens the only thing holding up the massive Blow Out Preventer's immense bulk of 450 tons. In fact?...we are beginning to the results of the well's total integrity beginning to fail due to the undermining being caused by the leaking well bore.

"The first layer of the sea floor in the gulf is mostly lose material of sand and silt. It doesn't hold up anything and isn't meant to, what holds the entire subsea system of the Bop in place is the well itself... The well's piping in comparison is actually very much smaller than the Blow Out Preventer and strong as it may be, it relies on some support from the seabed to function and not literally fall over...and it is now showing signs of doing just that....falling over...

"What is likely to happen now?

"Well...none of what is likely to happen is good, in fact...it's about as bad as it gets. I am convinced the erosion and compromising of the entire system is accelerating and attacking more key structural areas of the well, the blow out preventer and surrounding strata holding it all up and together. This is evidenced by the tilt of the blow out preventer and the erosion which has exposed the well head connection. What eventually will happen is that the blow out preventer will literally tip over if they do not run supports to it as the currents push on it. I suspect they will run those supports as cables tied to anchors very soon, if they don't, they are inviting disaster that much sooner.

"Eventually even that will be futile as the well casings cannot support the weight of the massive system above with out the cement bond to the earth and that bond is being eroded away. When enough is eroded away the casings will buckle and the BOP will collapse the well. If and when you begin to see oil and gas coming up around the well area from under the BOP? or the area around the well head connection and casing sinking more and more rapidly? ...it won't be too long after that the entire system fails. BP must be aware of this, they are mapping the sea floor sonically and that is not a mere exercise. Our Gov't must be well aware too, they just are not telling us.

"All of these things lead to only one place, a fully wide open well bore directly to the oil deposit...after that, it goes into the realm of "the worst things you can think of" The well may come completely apart as the inner liners fail. There is still a very long drill string in the well, that could literally come flying out...as I said...all the worst things you can think of are a possibility, but the very least damaging outcome as bad as it is, is that we are stuck with a wide open gusher blowing out 150,000 barrels a day of raw oil or more. There isn't any "cap dome" or any other suck fixer device on earth that exists or could be built that will stop it from gushing out and doing more and more damage to the gulf. While at the same time also doing more damage to the well, making the chance of halting it with a kill from the bottom up less and less likely to work, which as it stands now?....is the only real chance we have left to stop it all.

"It's a race now...a race to drill the relief wells and take our last chance at killing this monster before the whole weakened, wore out, blown out, leaking and failing system gives up it's last gasp in a horrific crescendo.

"We are not even 2 months into it, barely half way by even optimistic estimates. The damage done by the leaked oil now is virtually immeasurable already and it will not get better, it can only get worse. No matter how much they can collect, there will still be thousands and thousands of gallons leaking out every minute, every hour of every day. We have 2 months left before the relief wells are even near in position and set up to take a kill shot and that is being optimistic as I said.

"Over the next 2 months the mechanical situation also cannot improve, it can only get worse, getting better is an impossibility. While they may make some gains on collecting the leaked oil, the structural situation cannot heal itself. It will continue to erode and flow out more oil and eventually the inevitable collapse which cannot be stopped will happen. It is only a simple matter of who can "get there first"...us or the well."

Dude protecting a lame Assed president, while "DREAMING" up shit you wish he said.
The day after, then defend him by insulting the intelligence of the American people by saying, his speech was written at a tenth grade level, there for out of the comprehension for the majority, of Americans. The ones that is so disgusted with this Guys, do nothing approach, and mealy mouthed lip service. Elitist Pricks, we're not as dumb as that is Creepy and a perverse representation of Democracy.
And to hell with any of ya, that don't get that, and chose to call me a Conservative, because I'm on to this BULLSHIT.

Peefucking-U it stinks!

Quick somebody dispatch a Liberal Congressman over to TOT's house to thrash him good, he's speaking his mind, about the Liberal party. It's for his own good...

Dude, criticizing him by laying exactly the points he missed and itemizing what she thought was the failure of his speech is hardly 'protecting'... As I said above, and it was directed at you: "any excuse to attack a ‘liberal’. Pathetic. GFL. It doesn’t even matter what the issue is anymore does it?"

Now you posted too quick so I know you didn't read the article I copied in above. Go back up and read it.

And please don't make this thread into another of your 'liberal' bashing jaunts and stick to the point. Your attitude in taking that stance is one of the reasons this forum is so easily marginalized. Besides, you sound drunk.

Nomograph says

I wouldn’t put too much stock in what you read in the comments section of an Internet web site. That would be probably the least credible source of information ever.

ha ha.

But again, consider the source, not the messenger. And I sure do hope you're right about being able to cap it, but its not looking too good so far, is it. One of the salient points Maddow made was that in skirting the regulations - short cuts on safety measures, having no real plan in place in case of accidents, was that they were making short term PRIVATE gain by gambling against the health and safety of the entire gulf its residents. Thats an abomination is if not simply criminal I don't know what is.

If changes and convictions don't come of this catastrophe them I'm actually going to be siding with Tenouncetrout for once, when he sobers up.

"But again, consider the source, not the messenger. And I sure do hope you’re right about being able to cap it, but its not looking too good so far, is it. One of the salient points Maddow made was that in skirting the regulations - short cuts on safety measures, having no real plan in place in case of accidents, was that they were making short term PRIVATE gain by gambling against the health and safety of the entire gulf its residents. Thats an abomination is if not simply criminal I don’t know what is."

Look Obama is a likable guy, he didn't get to where he is today, by having the personality of trampled fruit. Let's be clear. He is the guy that always cheered up the party because I bet he always had the right cordial things to say, at the precise moment. He really shows interest and he really cares like saying... "If you ever need any thing call me." What a nice thing to say. He could say those things, because he knows just saying them is all he'll ever have to do, for the people he says those things to.

If a party or a group ever needed lively up, people like Obama are the people you call.
They are not good leaders, they are only people you "Wish" you were. Popular, witty, quick with a quip, and handsome. These popular types are always the first to Crumble when faced with a real crisis that requires more than a Political handshake.

Dare I say the Author of that Article is more qualified to be leader than Obama is. AT LEAST SHE KNOWS WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

Obama is in so far over head, I actually feel sorry for him. He is the most stressed out President I've ever seen. But his instinct to be liked more importantly above all else. Prohibits him from slipping up and taking charge, for fear, what he would commit to, would be out of his comfort zone to control the result of what he promised.

He can't command, and can't bring him self to select people around him that can, for fear it would over shaddow him. He's Media product nothing more and nothing less. He as well as every Liberal here figured, if Bush can do it, any Monkey can. I don't think Obama has been prepared for any of the Shitstorms that hit his administration. The best he can do is, collect them and put them in a box by the garage, with G.W.B scrawled on them with a Magic marker.

uh huh.

So right, okay Tenouncetrout & e... little dudes, if Obama woke up and said the sun was going to shine today you'd call him a liar for saying it. This isn't a position its an obsession. Its simply impossible to post here without you jokers gumming up the threads with your noise and here's another thread lost to your endless BS. Its like a f'king grade school around here.

Media creation... If you want a media creation really just look no further than back to GW Bush, the Skull & Bones Yale man with the rich president oilman father, a man who skipped out of his service because his pop pulled strings but who was portrayed as an ace fighter pilot, a 'man of the people', a 'cowboy', the 'guy you'd like to have a beer with', a common rancher. Or maybe its Rand Paul, again the son of a rich man, the doctor who has certified himself through a certification board he himself created on which only his wife and father sit as members, and who wants to dismantle every government program except Medicare & Medicaid, the ones that pay his own bills. Thats the kind of reality you long for. I get it.

And if you'd read the article you'd know that the author didn't put out any positions, she was quoting an engineer from an industry posting board, and it wasn't a note from the 'comments section'.

Regarding government, you have no idea what you want. If a government isn't capable of being able to enforce accountability and regulations that are put in place to defend the heath and rights of its people - you & me - against corporate greed and intrusions, then whats it for? All thats left is a system set up to funnel money from people to corporations & military, which unfortuantely is pretty much what we have now. Regarding the 'taser' or whatever comment, what you're describing is an authoritarian government, the thing we are brought closer and closer to everyday because of people like you and your attempts to weaken the government & its regulations. What I think you're asking for is actually more accountability and what you're actually arguing for is MORE government not less, you just don't realize it yet. Its just the TYPE of gov you want that you need to sort out.

And if you want a bullshit position you can check out the 'apology' from the Texas dude Barton, the politician who's taken 10s of thousands from the oil companies, for the governments attempts to enforce some marginal amount of accountability. Actually it strikes me that how Obama is able to get anything done at all with jokers like that around is probably pretty amazing. I bet its a lot like dealing with you two.

So anyway I'm done with this. Its really tedious, basically a waste of time responding to you guys. T & E, you can call this a victory of your great debating skills if you want. Well done boys!

Actually one more comment, to Vicente regarding the Ron Paul comment "He also said that the accident at the Deepwater Horizon was just that: An accident. “Do you think BP likes this stuff?” he said." which again demonstrates to me why no one should be referring to Ron Paul for any comments.

The issue is this - BP was operating in an area - the gulf, where the seabed is basically a mile deep - where they knew they were not capable of fixing a problem - shown by the recent revelations of the basic lack of a feasible response plan - if it occurred, and they have been shown to have been actively avoiding safety regulations that were put in place to avoid this type of accident. So they were taking their private profit from a public area in which several state economies and millions of families livelihoods are based and not bothering themselves with worrying about what would happen or being capable of fixing things if a problem occurred. Those are, I would hope, criminal actions.

And once again, private profits, public pain.

This is a perfect example of why we need a strong government, with ACCOUNTABILITY measures in place, for itself and for its constituents, corporate AND individual.

Anyway, I'm done here.

kentm says

So right, okay Tenouncetrout & e… little dudes, if Obama woke up and said the sun was going to shine today you’d call him a liar for saying it.

Thanks for playing...

kentm says

..and here’s the difference: “Liberals” are very willing to criticize and critique ‘their own’, but “Conservatives” will ignore and defend the faults of their leaders and attack anything that comes from ‘the others’, like pack animals with a team sport mentality.

This forum provides a mountain of evidence which contradicts that statement.

Nomograph says

It’s best to watch, listen to, and read legitimate news sources rather than predigested opinion.

Honest question: What news sources would you consider legitimate? I typically stick to blogs, such as Mish's and zerohedge. I also enjoy reading an assortment of opinions regarding MSM pieces, a la the patrick.net forum. At least in forums and blogs people state their opinions regarding the financial news, and then try to support their opinions. Is it even possible to be completely unbiased when reporting news?

CBOEtrader says

kentm says

..and here’s the difference: “Liberals” are very willing to criticize and critique ‘their own’, but “Conservatives” will ignore and defend the faults of their leaders and attack anything that comes from ‘the others’, like pack animals with a team sport mentality.

This forum provides a mountain of evidence which contradicts that statement.

Kevin's Living in a Fantasy Unicorn Party world, don't argue that with him.
He's either new here, or doesn't know what in the hell he's talking about.
The Dementia is Strong in this one.

He doesn't belive it is possible to dislike a dud politician Hell a Whole goddamn Dud enept Democrat Washington for that matter, with out that being convinced that person showing disdain is a Conservative.

I rode G.W.Bush's ass, for 8 years, I've still got Helmet hair.