patrick.net

just some data points for the value of land (which is what I am primarily interested in).

OO, please keep posting your "land" observations (especially if you see the market starting to turn). I guess I can always dream about purchasing a vacation home plot at the "end" of the downturn -- why have all those maintenance expenses for a real getaway when you can just pay taxes on some land while it sits there. Much cheaper that way .
I signed up for a propertyshark.com account and have found it quite addictive (thankfully they limit the amount you can "imbibe"). The biggest shocker for me is finding places where I assumed people were overleveraged as it would appear they overpaid... instead I only find a $200k first mortgage (fixed, of course).

It’d take 6 months to fully gut and refinish it.
SFBB, Sorry to be so skeptical, but I am guessing a year minimum (okay, maybe 6 months for actual construction -- but good luck with permits and everyting else)... at any rate, if you do bid, spending a couple hundred bucks on a contractor (or inspector who used to be a contractor) would probably be worth it for a back of the envelope "consultation". Or maybe try a remodeling coach.

If you go to MacArthur Park be sure to try the popcorn shrimp - they are excellent.

Its also one of the rare places where you can know exactly where it is, but still can't get there - you have to be heading towards Stanford on University and then make a right at the light before University heads over El Camino.

@HARM,

And... Schatz Home Furnishings is having another FINAL "going out of business sale" (again) this weekend only!

skibum,

It's funny you should mention the upper midwest. I have a brother that lives in Cleveland and that is were we would most likely go if forced out of California. We've been looking at houses out there on Realtor.com and so far I've been impressed with both the variety of architectural styles available and the apparent build quality in the older neighborhoods. And on the upside, the same dollars that would only be a small down payment here will just about pay off a home there. The one thing that concerns me though is the winters. I've seen photos of houses with lake effect snow up to the rooflines.

SP,

Ughh, now you got me all upset recalling that there was a time when the case study houses, with their ethereal designs and fantastic lots, was in the reach of the professional class (and only one professional per family, darn it!).

And now I'm going to go and drown myself in a McMansion bathtub in despair.

@DinOR,

Funny - I've wondered if that whole 'going out of business' gimmick was common in other states too.

@astrid,

Don't do it! It's not worth it.

When I was stationed in Long Beach, CA back in the early 80's I remember all up and down 3rd. Ave. (just in from Ocean Blvd.) there was block after block of 20's/30's Arts and Crafts homes. My buddy used to rent on 3rd and Orange and I always remember just what a classy feel it had to it. The yards were big enough to have a wedding reception in (as I'm sure was often the case in that era).

I'd love to go back just to see. At the time most were rentals and in a sad state of repair. Even still, they had a sense of style not even a Ford Pinto up on blocks couldn't take away from. Windows that had purpose, not windows for the sake of windows.

SFBB,

More Arts & Crafts related, but you may find this architect's website interesting:

http://www.thebungalowcompany.com/

My experience with rebuilding a condo -- 2X as long and 2X as expensive as I thought.

Hope you get it!

David J,

I can see your point. Speaking as someone who has spent substantial time on both coasts, I can say dealing with winters is tough at first, but you really do get used to it. I have friends in Cleveland working at the Clinic, and they have only nice things to say about the lifestyle there. Sounds like there are a reasonable amount of decent restaurants, and as you mentioned, the housing prices are shockingly affordable. Check this place out for less than the median Santa Clara county SFH price in Shaker Heights, one of the nicest close-in old-time suburbs:

http://tinyurl.com/37b3ax

I think there's some gang activity going on at my blog:

http://www.burbed.com/2007/05/29/mountain-view-surenos-gang-uses-blue/#comment-8501

What's sad was that the comment was posted from a Modesto public school apparently.

Check this place out for less than the median Santa Clara county SFH price in Shaker Heights, one of the nicest close-in old-time suburbs:

http://tinyurl.com/37b3ax

If you tell a Bay Area person that, they'll quickly tell you that that's because people outside of the Bay Area don't get paid well.

Seriously.

Someone argued on my blog that "Seattle has a 30% lower cost of living, but that's because your pay will be 30% less too."

Uh...

SP,

only if you can deal with NZ weather, which is 4 seasons skewed to the winter all in one day.

We went to NZ a few years ago right around LOTR release since we were lured by the scenery. We also toyed with the idea of keeping a vacation property down there just by dicking around the internet (NZD at around .5, and NZ asset bubble not in full rage).

Then after a 3-week trip in NZ, we decided that it is just too damn cold for us, even in a typical NZ summer. What you can't see in those scenery photos include wind chill, rain and shine every 5 minutes, and a general lack of infrastructure to sustain a care-free living. No wonder Bear Grylls hasn't done any series in NZ yet, he will be frozen to death for sure.

eburbed,

I have lots of friends in Seattle (ex-BAers), and they told me it is not 30% lower in cost of living. Those CA equity locusts don't really scale down their lifestyle, they just buy a bigger house at the same price. The real problem with Seattle is jobs. Outside of Microsoft, which does pay below the market, there are almost no viable choices, Amazon and Starbucks pay laughable salary. Startups in Seattle, much fewer in number to begin with, do pay more than 20% lower than BA. So if you quit working for Microsoft, the path of least resistance is usually moving out of the area.

However, it is more than 10% cheaper for sure, primarily due to the lack of state income tax. In fact, one of the guys moved up a year before he cashed out all his options to avoid the CA income tax.

The worst thing about NZ is, their general cost of living (except housing) is higher than BA, in absolute terms. I kid you not.

We checked out local supermarket chain at every stop and made sure we were not confining ourselves to toursity outfits targeting stupid Americans. The variety is food is decisively limited, imagine Safeway (not even Whole Foods) scaled down by more than half. The only three items that are cheaper than us (BA) are: lamb, milk and kiwi fruit. Everything else is either missing or more expensive.

If you are a gadget freak like myself, welcome to the hell of electronics. NZ has to source its electronics stuff from Oz, which is at least 30% more expensive than us to begin with. Every time I go visit my parents, I have to carry on LCD display, digital camera, ipod, printer, and whatever that will work down under because of the price difference.

Seattle has another problem - property tax assessed at the market price every year.

Seattle's housing price unfortunately fluctuates with CA, and it has been the case for many years. Because whenever CA housing bubble starts picking up, there will always be a certain portion of CA population cashing out and moving north, causing their property price to move in tandem. What they don't have is, the CA homeowners here are protected by prop 13 no matter how the housing price moves, the typical WA homeowners who bought a nice home @ $500K suddenly finds his property tax bill to be north of $10K just because some dicks in CA decide to bid up his neighbors' homes.

Given that Seattle home price more than double in the last 5 years, property tax bill is certainly a big part of the cost of living.

Someone argued on my blog that “Seattle has a 30% lower cost of living, but that’s because your pay will be 30% less too.”

Actually, that was probably true 10 or 15 years ago, but no more. When I moved to Atlanta 15 years ago, I recall being shocked at how little most professional jobs paid. $5-8/hour for entry-level office jobs was quite common and not much more for jobs that required college degrees. I once saw a want ad in the local paper for a college professor offering $14,000 --no joke. Nowadays, the two states are almost at par with each other HH income-wise, while houses here cost 2-3x what they do there, and gas, food, utilities, etc. are significantly more expensive as well.

I don’t think I’d trust the sushi in Cleveland.

I've heard it's actually not bad, believe it or not. As long as it doesn't come from the Lake, I suppose...

Yet another Casey saga update:

Snowflake's pulled the "the wife made me do it" goodbye info (see screenshot I posted above) and replaced it with "I'm sorry" in faint grey letters. The abrupt IAFF site closure has also started to attract some media attention:

http://news.com.com/Notorious+debtor+Casey+Serin+shuts+down+blog/2100-1026_3-6188143.html?tag=nefd.top

Check this place out for less than the median Santa Clara county SFH price in Shaker Heights, one of the nicest close-in old-time suburbs:
Also, as it is an "old school" suburb, they actually built it around public transportation. You would be less than a mile from the Rapid Transit (light rail) -- might be a bit to hoof it through the snow, though :-)

Never thought Shaker Heights would seem so affordable. Maybe the Case-Shiller
Indices and Paperdinero can help me understand this phenomena better. Ahhh... now I see.

Idea for new thread -

Anyone notice that interest rates are going up across the entire yield curve (except 3 & 6 month t-bills) and the curve is no longer inverted?

What are the implications for subsequent adjustable mortgage resets? How much do prices need to drop for each 25 bps increase in rates?

Paul,

Here is a starting point:
http://www.pimco.com/LeftNav/Featured+Market+Commentary/IO/2007/IO+April+2007.htm

John,

I had that Pimco article in mind and the following:

http://tinyurl.com/2bsoyx

It's interesting in the Pimco article that there is a table for what happens to prices with interest rates unchanged and then at various levels of cuts. What is missing is how much does it fall with each incremental rate increase from here?

Paul

SP,

(I thought about breaking into a McMansion and slitting my wrists, but I chickened out)

Tell Amazon to throw in a weather related adjustment; properly priced weather related adjustment should cancel out whatever COL and state tax adjustment would be.

If I follow through with my endless threats to migrate to Australia, I would vacation in New Zealand.

From my understanding, the northern half of the North Island is almost tropical.

SP,

you must be talking about Paihia or the surrounds, we didn't go that far north, we traveled from the Dunedin to Auckland, with an intention of seeking a secondary home, so we only went to places with broadband connection (#1 requirement of a vacation home).

Interestingly enough, lots of outback towns in Australia have satellite broadband connection at a reasonable cost (AUD 150 -200 a month), yet most of NZ outside the major population centers have nothing comparable to offer. Surfing on 26K phone line is not bearable even if we are on vacation.

Generally speaking, the roads in both N and S Island are poorly maintained, I won't feel comfortable relying on the infrastructure should weather condition turns harsh.

astrid,

if you look at the map, the northern tip of NZ lies on the same latitude as Sydney. I have never been to that far north in NZ, but I know Sydney quite well since my parents used to live there before they migrated 450 miles further north into Queensland.

Sydney is never even close to being tropical. Even S.E. Queensland where my parents reside now is NOT tropical, it is officially sub-tropical. Queensland becomes tropical from Townville northwards.

I highly doubt that the northern tip of NZ gets tropical.

OO & Astrid,

The wife and I spent a month in NZ in fall of '05 (spring to S. hemisphere). We rented a car and drove most of the length of both islands. The overall climate is considered sub-tropical, but portions of upper north island come pretty close to feeling tropical, at least in the summer, anyways. The ubiquitous tree ferns greatly enhance that impression, especially on the warmer north island.

There are dozens of micro-climates. Much of the interior of the south island (in a rain shadow between major mountain ranges) is quite dry and very much reminded me of Southern California. The north-western coast of the south island is one of the rainiest parts of the world and reminded me of PCH, going towards Big Sur. Other parts, such as the Canterbury plains around Christchurch, and a good portion of the interior of the north island reminded me of England, with plenty of lush, green rolling hills, sheep farms and stone walls. Rotorua (NI) resembles Yellowstone, with its many geysers, coniferous forests and lakes.

If you like temperate and warm with good beaches, stick to the northern end of north island, especially Coramandel, Paihia and Karikari Peninsula. The north is also a lot more developed with about 75% of the population, most of that in and around Auckland. The south island --especially the coasts-- get quite a bit of rain and is generally cooler year round. It also gets the bulk of the sandflies in summer --quite nasty & painful if you don't carry DEET. However, the SI has the NZ "alps" and some of the most picturesque, unspoiled wilderness. Not surprisingly, a lot of LOTR was filmed there.

A beautiful, largely unspoiled country ideal for outdoorsy people. However... not cheap, especially considering the lousy exchange rate today (for us). I'd go back there in a heartbeat.

Found a brief article on Edward Killingsworth in LA Times. He was one of the case study participants. Included are a very few interior shots of his own home:

http://www.latimes.com/features/printedition/home/la-hm-killingsworth13may13,1,2459668.story

This article pretty much sums up why I will NEVER buy new construction in my town.

http://tinyurl.com/ywrdvq

Paul,
That story is behind the Trib's firewall. Could you give us a synopsis?

"equally insufferable 'special' place?"

Uh huh. Yeah... buddy!

I've been to Tasmania and NZ and what really struck me was the people. Nice to the point of a fault. Even to U.S sailors!

Dogs and sailors stay off the grass! San Dog (San Diego)

Casey's site is gone, but I don't think we heard the last of him yet. I'm thinking he'll probably come up with another site such as www.iamfacingdivorce.com. Some people just can't help making their life public!

skibum Says:

> Sorry to be nitpicky, but technically that house
> is not a Craftsman home.

While we are nitpicking can people use “Mtn, View” when talking about the city south of Palo Alto?

Most people in Southern California think “Mission Viejo” when they see me “MV” and most people in Northern California (except the people that live between Page Mill Rd. and the Lawrence Expy.) think “Mill Valley” when they see “MV”.

Allah Says:

> Casey’s site is gone, but I don’t think we heard
> the last of him yet. I’m thinking he’ll probably
> come up with another site such as:
> www.iamfacingdivorce.com

Take a look at:

http://iamfacingbankruptcy.com/

Most people in Southern California think “Mission Viejo” when they see me “MV” and most people in Northern California (except the people that live between Page Mill Rd. and the Lawrence Expy.) think “Mill Valley” when they see “MV”.

To folks in Baahston MV is "The Vineyard," ie, Martha's Vineyard.

Nothing like a bit of healthy optimism, is there? Seems like this Yun guy at NAR has just predicted in front of a Florida audience that prices in one region will go up 20 times between now and 2045. All of a sudden, those 40-year mortgages make perfect sense. ;)

I can imagine DinOR coming in off the long run on this one. (Errrrr, cricket phrase. Offhand I can't think of a common US equivalent.)

"Speaking about Mountain View, anyone know if the neighborhood around Rock Street (at Sierra Vista - between Middlefield and Old Middlefield Road) is any good?"

I always make sure my doors are locked when I drive through this neighborhood.

Looks like a new FB site

Interesting chart.

http://tinyurl.com/dtgoj

The USD has gone from 46.5 to 40.5 INR (Indian Rupee) in last 12 months. With most of the decline - about 10% - coming in last 2 months. Five years ago the USD was nearly 50 INR.

Outsourcing companies are going to get hurt, and I am sure software engineers in India can say good bye to 25% pay hikes every year. I don't expect that this will derail the Indian economy, but growth will slow.

This may bode well for our jobs here.

I am fascinated by the double edged nature of the declining USD sword.