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Islam and Violence


 invite response                
2007 Sep 11, 1:35am   612,735 views  2,893 comments

by resistance   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

Originally from http://www.faithfreedom.org/

A Call to the Muslims of the World from a Group of Freethinkers and Humanists of Muslim Origins

Dear friends,

The tragic incidents of September 11 have shocked the world. It is unthinkable that anyone could be so full of hate as to commit such heinous acts and kill so many innocent people. We people of Muslim origin are as much shaken as the rest of the world and yet we find ourselves looked upon with suspicion and distrust by our neighbours and fellow citizens. We want to cry out and tell the world that we are not terrorists, and that those who perpetrate such despicable acts are murderers and not part of us. But, in reality, because of our Muslim origins we just cannot erase the stigma of Islamic Terrorism from our identity!

What most Muslims will say:

Islam would never support the killing of innocent people. Allah of the Holy Qur'an never advocated killings. This is all the work of a few misguided individuals at the fringes of society. The real Islam is sanctified from violence. We denounce all violence. Islam means peace. Islam means tolerance.

What knowledgeable Muslims should say:

That is what most Muslims think, but is it true? Does Islam really preach peace, tolerance and non-violence? The Muslims who perpetrate these crimes think differently. They believe that what they do is Jihad (holy war). They say that killing unbelievers is mandatory for every Muslim. They do not kill because they wish to break the laws of Islam but because they think this is what true Muslims should do. Those who blow-up their own bodies to kill more innocent people do so because they think they will be rewarded in Paradise. They hope to be blessed by Allah, eat celestial food, drink pure wine and enjoy the company of divine consorts. Are they completely misguided? Where did they get this distorted idea? How did they come to believe that killing innocent people pleases God? Or is it that we are misguided? Does really Islam preach violence? Does it call upon its believers to kill non-believers? We denounce those who commit acts of violence and call them extremists. But are they really extremists or are they following what the holy book, the Qur'an tells them to do? What does the Qur'an teach? Have we read the Qur'an? Do we know what kind of teachings are there? Let us go through some of them and take a closer look at what Allah says.

What the Qur'an Teaches Us:

We have used the most widely available English text of the Qur'an and readers are welcome to verify our quotes from the holy book. Please have an open mind and read through these verses again and again. The following quotes are taken from the most trusted Yusufali's translation of the Qur'an. The Qur'an tells us: not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (5:51), kill the disbelievers wherever we find them (2:191), murder them and treat them harshly (9:123), fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them (8:65). Allah and his messenger want us to fight the Christians and the Jews until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued (9:29). Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (9:3). Our God tells us to fight the unbelievers and He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them (9:14).

The Qur'an takes away the freedom of belief from all humanity and relegates those who disbelieve in Islam to hell (5:10), calls them najis (filthy, untouchable, impure) (9:28), and orders its followers to fight the unbelievers until no other religion except Islam is left (2:193). It says that the non-believers will go to hell and will drink boiling water (14:17). It asks the Muslims to slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace and that they shall have a great punishment in world hereafter (5:34). And tells us that for them (the unbelievers) garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods (22:19-22) and that they not only will have disgrace in this life, but on the Day of Judgment He shall make them taste the Penalty of burning (Fire) (22:9). The Qur'an says that those who invoke a god other than Allah not only should meet punishment in this world but the Penalty on the Day of Judgment will be doubled to them, and they will dwell therein in ignominy (25:68). For those who believe not in Allah and His Messenger, He has prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire! (48:13). Although we are asked to be compassionate amongst each other, we have to be harsh with unbelievers, our Christian, Jewish and Atheist neighbours and colleagues (48:29). As for him who does not believe in Islam, the Prophet announces with a stern command: Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin. (69:30-37) The Qur'an prohibits a Muslim from befriending a non-believer even if that non-believer is the father or the brother of that Muslim (9:23), (3:28). Our holy book asks us to be disobedient towards the disbelievers and their governments and strive against the unbelievers with great endeavour (25:52) and be stern with them because they belong to Hell (66:9). The holy Prophet prescribes fighting for us and tells us that it is good for us even if we dislike it (2:216). Then he advises us to strike off the heads of the disbelievers; and after making a wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives (47:4). Our God has promised to instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers and has ordered us to smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them (8:12). He also assures us that when we kill in his name it is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself (8:17). He orders us to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies (8:60). He has made the Jihad mandatory and warns us that Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place (9:39). Allah speaks to our Holy Prophet and says O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed (9:73).

He promises us that in the fight for His cause whether we slay or are slain we return to the garden of Paradise (9:111). In Paradise he will wed us with Houris (celestial virgins) pure beautiful ones (56:54), and unite us with large-eyed beautiful ones while we recline on our thrones set in lines (56:20). There we are promised to eat and drink pleasantly for what we did (56:19). He also promises boys like hidden pearls (56:24) and youth never altering in age like scattered pearls (for those who have paedophiliac inclinations) (76:19). As you see, Allah has promised all sorts or rewards, gluttony and unlimited sex to Muslim men who kill unbelievers in his name. We will be admitted to Paradise where we shall find goodly things, beautiful ones, pure ones confined to the pavilions that man has not touched them before nor jinni (56:67-71).In the West we enjoy freedom of belief but we are not supposed to give such freedom to anyone else because it is written If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good) (3:85). And He orders us to fight them on until there is no more tumult and faith in Allah is practiced everywhere (8:39). As for women the book of Allah says that they are inferior to men and their husbands have the right to scourge them if they are found disobedient (4:34). It advises to take a green branch and beat your wife, because a green branch is more flexible and hurts more. (38:44). It teaches that women will go to hell if they are disobedient to their husbands (66:10). It maintains that men have an advantage over the women (2:228). It not only denies the women's equal right to their inheritance (4:11-12), it also regards them as imbeciles and decrees that their witness is not admissible in the courts of law (2:282). This means that a woman who is raped cannot accuse her rapist unless she can produce a male witness. Our Holy Prophet allows us to marry up to four wives and he licensed us to sleep with our slave maids and as many 'captive' women as we may have (4:3) even if those women are already married. He himself did just that. This is why anytime a Muslim army subdues another nation, they call them kafir and allow themselves to rape their women. Pakistani soldiers allegedly raped up to 250,000 Bengali women in 1971 after they massacred 3,000,000 unarmed civilians when their religious leader decreed that Bangladeshis are un-Islamic. This is why the prison guards in Islamic regime of Iran rape the women that in their opinion are apostates prior to killing them, as they believe a virgin will not go to Hell.

Dear fellow Muslims:Is this the Islam you believe in? Is this your Most Merciful, Most Compassionate Allah whom you worship daily? Could Allah incite you to kill other peoples? Please understand that there is no terrorist gene - but there could be a terrorist mindset. That mindset finds its most fertile ground in the tenets of Islam. Denying it, and presenting Islam to the lay public as a religion of peace similar to Buddhism, is to suppress the truth. The history of Islam between the 7th and 14th centuries is riddled with violence, fratricide and wars of aggression, starting right from the death of the Prophet and during the so-called 'pure' or orthodox caliphate. And Muhammad himself hoisted the standard of killing, looting, massacres and bloodshed. How can we deny the entire history? The behaviour of our Holy Prophet as recorded in authentic Islamic sources is quite questionable from a modern viewpoint. The Prophet was a charismatic man but he had few virtues. Imitating him in all aspects of life (following the Sunnah) is both impossible and dangerous in the 21st century. Why are we so helplessly in denial over this simple issue? When the Prophet was in Mecca and he was still not powerful enough he called for tolerance. He said To you be your religion, and to me my religion (109:6). This famous quote is often misused to prove that the general principle of Qur'an is tolerance. He advised his follower to speak good to their enemies (2: 83), exhorted them to be patient (20:103) and said that there is no compulsion in religion (2:256). But that all changed drastically when he came to power. Then killing and slaying unbelievers with harshness and without mercy was justified in innumerable verses. The verses quoted to prove Islam's tolerance ignore many other verses that bear no trace of tolerance or forgiveness. Where is tolerance in this well-known verse Alarzu Lillah, Walhukmu Lillah. (The Earth belongs to Allah and thus only Allah's rule should prevail all over the earth.).Is it normal that a book revealed by God should have so many serious contradictions? The Prophet himself set the example of unleashing violence by invading the Jewish settlements, breaking treaties he had signed with them and banishing some of them after confiscating their belongings, massacring others and taking their wives and children as slaves. He inspected the youngsters and massacred all those who had pubic hair along with the men. Those who were younger he kept as slaves. He distributed the women captured in his raids among his soldiers keeping the prettiest for himself (33:50). He made sexual advances on Safiyah, a Jewish girl on the same day he captured her town Kheibar and killed her father, her husband and many of her relatives. Reyhana was another Jewish girl of Bani Quriza whom he used as a sex slave after killing all her male relatives. In the last ten years of his life he accumulated two scores of wives, concubines and sex slaves including the 9 year old Ayesha. These are not stories but records from authentic Islamic history and the Hadiths. It can be argued that this kind of behaviour was not unknown or unusual for the conquerors and leaders of the mediaeval world but these are not the activities befitting of a peaceful saint and certainly not someone who claimed to be the Mercy of God for all creation. There were known assassinations of adversaries during the Prophet's time, which he had knowledge of and had supported. Among them there was a 120 year old man, Abu 'Afak whose only crime was to compose a lyric satirical of the Prophet. (by Ibn Sa'd Kitab al Tabaqat al Kabir, Volume 2, page 32) Then when a poetess, a mother of 5 small children 'Asma' Bint Marwan wrote a poetry cursing the Arabs for letting Muhammad assassinate an old man, our Holy Prophet ordered her to be assassinated too in the middle of the night while her youngest child was suckling from her breast. (Sirat Rasul Allah (A. Guillaume's translation The Life of Muhammad) page 675, 676).The Prophet did develop a 'Robin Hood' image that justified raiding merchant caravans attacking cities and towns, killing people and looting their belongings in the name of social justice. Usama Bin Laden is also trying to create the same image. But Robin Hood didn't claim to be a prophet or a pacifist nor did he care for apologist arguments. He did not massacre innocent people indiscriminately nor did he profit by reducing free people to slaves and then trading them. With the known and documented violent legacy of Islam, how can we suddenly rediscover it as a religion of peace in the free world in the 21st century? Isn't this the perpetuation of a lie by a few ambitious leaders in order to gain political control of the huge and ignorant Muslim population? They are creating a polished version of Islam by completely ignoring history. They are propagating the same old dogma for simple believing people in a crisp new modern package. Their aim: to gain political power in today's high-tension world. They want to use the confrontational power of the original Islam to catalyse new conflicts and control new circles of power.

Dear conscientious Muslims, please question yourselves. Isn't this compulsive following of a man who lived 1400 years ago leading us to doom in a changing world? Do the followers of any other religion follow one man in such an all-encompassing way? Who are we deceiving, them or ourselves? Dear brothers and sisters, see how our Umma (people) has sunk into poverty and how it lags behind the rest of the world. Isn't it because we are following a religion that is outdated and impractical? In this crucial moment of history, when a great catastrophe has befallen us and a much bigger one is lying ahead, should not we wake up from our 1400 years of slumber and see where things have gone wrong? Hatred has filled the air and the world is bracing itself for its doomsday. Should we not ask ourselves whether we have contributed, wittingly or unwittingly, to this tragedy and whether we can stop the great disaster from happening?Unfortunately the answer to the first question is yes. Yes we have contributed to the rise of fundamentalism by merely claiming Islam is a religion of peace, by simply being a Muslim and by saying our shahada (testimony that Allah is the only God and Muhammad is his messenger). By our shahada we have recognized Muhammad as a true messenger of God and his book as the words of God. But as you saw above those words are anything but from God. They call for killing, they are prescriptions for hate and they foment intolerance. And when the ignorant among us read those hate-laden verses, they act on them and the result is the infamous September 11, human bombs in Israel, massacres in East Timor and Bangladesh, kidnappings and killings in the Philippines, slavery in the Sudan, honour killings in Pakistan and Jordan, torture in Iran, stoning and maiming in Afghanistan and Iran, violence in Algeria, terrorism in Palestine and misery and death in every Islamic country. We are responsible because we endorse Islam and hail it as a religion of God. And we are as guilty as those who put into practice what the Qur'an preaches - and ironically we are the main victims too. If we are not terrorists, if we love peace, if we cried with the rest of the word for what happened in New York, then why are we supporting the Qur'an that preaches killing, that advocates holy war, that calls for the murder of non-Muslims? It is not the extremists who have misunderstood Islam. They do literally what the Qur'an asks them to do. It is we who misunderstand Islam. We are the ones who are confused. We are the ones who wrongly assume that Islam is the religion of peace. Islam is not a religion of peace. In its so-called pure form it can very well be interpreted as a doctrine of hate. Terrorists are doing just that and we the intellectual apologists of Islam are justifying it. We can stop this madness. Yes, we can avert the disaster that is hovering over our heads. Yes, we can denounce the doctrines that promote hate. Yes, we can embrace the rest of humanity with love. Yes, we can become part of a united world, members of one human family, flowers of one garden. We can dump the claim of infallibility of our Book, and the questionable legacy of our Prophet.Dear friends, there is no time to waste. Let us put an end to this lie. Let us not fool ourselves. Islam is not a religion of peace, of tolerance, of equality or of unity of humankind. Let us read the Qur'an. Let us face the truth even if it is painful. As long as we keep this lie alive, as long as we hide our head in the sands of Arabia we are feeding terrorism. As long as you and I keep calling Qur'an the unchangeable book of God, we cannot blame those who follow the teachings therein. As long as we pay our Khums and Zakat our money goes to promote Islamic expansionism and that means terrorism, Jihad and war. Islam divides the world in two. Darul Harb (land of war) and Darul Islam (land of Islam). Darul Harb is the land of the infidels, Muslims are required to infiltrate those lands, proselytise and procreate until their numbers increase and then start the war and fight and kill the people and impose the religion of Islam on them and convert that land into Darul Islam. In all fairness we denounce this betrayal. This is abuse of the trust. How can we make war in the countries that have sheltered us? How can we kill those who have befriended us? Yet willingly or unwillingly we have become pawns in this Islamic Imperialism. Let us see what great Islamic scholars have had to say in this respect.Dr. M. Khan the translator of Sahih Bukhari and the Qur'an into English wrote: Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia (a tax levied on the Jews and Christians) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon the fighting against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are strong and have the ability to fight against them. So at first the fighting was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory [Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.] Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: The command to fight the infidels was delayed until the Muslims become strong, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p. 269.]Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims. [ibid p. 270]Other Islamic scholars (Ibn Hazm al-Andalusi, Ga'far ar-Razi, Rabi' Ibn 'Ons, 'Abil-'Aliyah, Abd ar-Rahman Ibn Zayd Ibn 'Aslam, etc.) agree that the verse Slay the idolaters wherever you find them (9:5) cancelled those few earlier verses that called for tolerance in the Qur'an and were revealed when Islam was weak. Can you still say that Islam is the religion of peace? We propose a solution.

We know too well that it is not easy to denounce our faith because it means denouncing a part of ourselves. We are a group of freethinkers and humanists with Islamic roots. Discovering the truth and leaving the religion of our fathers and forefathers was a painful experience. But after learning what Islam stands for we had no choice but to leave it. After becoming familiar with the Qur'an the choice became clear: It is either Islam or humanity. If Islam thrives, then humanity will die. We decided to side with humanity. Culturally we are still Muslims but we no longer believe in Islam as the true religion of God. We are humanists. We love humanity. We work for the unity of humankind. We work for equality between men and women. We strive for the secularisation of Islamic countries, for democracy and freedom of thought, belief and expression. We decided to live no longer in self-deception but to embrace humanity, and to enter into the new millennium hand in hand with people of other cultures and beliefs in amity and in peace.We denounce the violence that is eulogized in the Qur'an as holy war (Jihad). We condemn killing in the name of God. We believe in the sanctity of human life, not in the inviolability of beliefs and religions. We invite you to join us and the rest of humanity and become part of the family of humankind - in love, camaraderie and peace.

Arabic translation الترجمة العربية

See http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis and http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ for more.

Please copy this article, and distribute it as widely as possible, both online and physically. The future of humanity depends on it.

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2418   AD   2024 Mar 22, 11:49pm  

Misc says

So, you really think that Israeli intelligence is behind the massacre in Moscow ???

By having ISIS claim responsibility, it doesn't provoke animosity towards the West.


Why ? because Kremlin is behind Hamas attack on 6 October ?

I wonder if they caught at least one of the terrorists in the Moscow attack.

I hope it was not really a Western government operation as part of an unofficial war with Russia. Why murder innocent civilians, especially it will further galvanize Putin's base ?

.
2419   Misc   2024 Mar 23, 12:13am  

No, Israeli intelligence wasn't behind the attack.

ISIS claimed responsibility.

The US warned Russia ahead of time that there was chatter among terrorists that they were planning on hitting a concert.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/we-have-duty-to-pass-info-intel-expert/
2420   Reality   2024 Mar 24, 7:17pm  

Misc says


No, Israeli intelligence wasn't behind the attack.

ISIS claimed responsibility.


ISIS is operated/handled locally by Israeli intelligence, with funding from the globalist deep state. Luckily, updates indicate the party claiming responsibility is ISIS-K (Khorasan), which is Al Queda (the word "Al Queda" has connotation to "the toilet" in local language, so clearly another intelligence operation put together by people who don't speak the local language as first language). Here is a Washington Post article explaining how the "ISIS-Khorasan" name came about:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/09/25/the-strange-story-behind-the-khorasan-groups-name/

As you can see, those names are not picked by the allegedly Islamic terrorists who are experts at producing online videos in addition to killing people in the most grotesque way possible, but picked by the deep state staff.

Both ISIS and ISIS-K, along with ISIS-Marghreb/Boko Harem, etc., are all financed by the banksters and globalist intelligence organizations trying to kill/harvest regional current-order beneficiaries who have substantial bank account balances and middle-class savers who likewise have large bank account balances in aggregate. It's similar to banksters financing communism and Nazi/fascism all over the world a century ago, and French/Napoleonic revolutionaries a century before that. The goals are the same: cause mayhem and kill large numbers of people, which statistically contain bank account holders, who are liabilities to the banks. Also the reason behind the jab, "Spanish-flu" and "massive-blood-letting-therapy" that became suddenly popular around the same time as those massive wars during the harvesting seasons.

Within that global network of chaos-makers, ISIS mostly has Israeli intelligence as the local anchor / handler; ISIS-K / Al-Queda used to have Pakistani ISI as the local anchor / handler, but in recent years may have been transferred to the CIA desk. The publishing of shooting video via the usual ISIS online account however indicates there might be collaboration/overlap on this operation.


The US warned Russia ahead of time that there was chatter among terrorists that they were planning on hitting a concert.

https://www.newsnationnow.com/world/we-have-duty-to-pass-info-intel-expert/


Similar to Biden and Nuland warning Russia about the cutting of Nordstream gas pipeline before the bombing happened.

The real issue now is finding out whether this latest attack was planned/organized by Nuland before she was fired as her departing "gift" to make the peace process difficult / impossible. At least till she was fired, the deep state operatives like her were trying to escalate the conflict in Ukraine: mass killing Ukrainian bank account holders, mass killing Polish and Baltic + Romanian bank account holders, or even mass killing all bank account holders all over the world in a thermonuclear exchange, escalation to any level would be good to the banks who are having difficulty balancing books just like Bernie Madoff was facing towards the end of his ponzi scam (holding $50million reserve against over $60billion client account balance claims; i.e. asset-to-liability ratio worse than 1:1000!).
2421   richwicks   2024 Mar 24, 7:39pm  

Misc says


What the Fuck does this have to do with ISIS slaughtering concert goers in Moscow ????


ISIS is controlled and supported by Israel in Syria.

You know how the US supports terrorist groups all the fucking time, and then those same terrorist groups end up killing US soldiers and attacking US assets?

Same thing.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-supports-isis/5492807

ISIS are the "moderate rebels" that the US "news" media kept vomiting up.

Misc says


Dude, you really need a vacation. You have not been capable of keeping up with not only the content in this thread, but you attacked a person with the same views as yourself in another thread.


I haven't attacked anybody. I do NOT need a vacation, if anything, I need more work to do.

Misc says


You also seem to believe that Israel was behind the ISIS attack in Moscow.


I didn't claim that. Socal did:

socal2 says


Aaaand its ISIS.


If this is true. Israel is funding that group, therefore they are responsible. Israel funds and supports Hamas as well.

Also - YOU did.

Misc says


No, Israeli intelligence wasn't behind the attack.

ISIS claimed responsibility.


Bold is mine. ISIS is controlled by Israel. It's been working Syria for years, Syria is supported by Russia, Israel wants to scuttle Syria, and Russia is standing in the way. Add 1 and 1 together. Israel is pretty upset with Russia, Russia put away a bunch of Zionist criminals starting in 2000, those are the "oligarchs", many of them are (Israeli) state sponsored criminals and aren't at all independent businessmen. The US has them too.
2422   Reality   2024 Mar 24, 7:39pm  

AD says


Why murder innocent civilians, especially it will further galvanize Putin's base ?


Because they want to use angry Russians to kill Ukrainian, Polish, Baltic bank account holders and more. All those countries are facing negative demographic growth in recent years, so the pyramid scheme (in their entire pension systems; there will soon be more people withdrawing money than making new deposits) is about to be exposed. That's why they recently replaced the former gradually cluing in government in Poland with a bunch of WEF stooges. Notice, the money promised to the gunners never have to be paid out: the 2nd half is not paid yet, the first half already paid to him is in the bank account, so the money never left the banking system.
2423   AD   2024 Mar 24, 9:03pm  

Reality says

All those countries are facing negative demographic growth in recent years, so the pyramid scheme (in their entire pension systems; there will soon be more people withdrawing money than making new deposits) is about to be exposed.


there are ways to mitigate this without depending totally on immigration

new ways of caring for people like the elderly by using technology like AI-driven cameras ... just look at Wyze cameras which are well priced

also look at tracking smart watches and pendants that can be worn to detect falls

let alone modernize the economy to help lower costs such as for housing and food by promoting innovative ideas

.
2424   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 25, 10:32am  

Patrick says

I don't think there were any other Jewish temples in antiquity.


Not true at all, just need to read a bit of Acts...
2425   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 25, 10:34am  

If anyone's interested in facts on Russia attack, you won't find it in this thread. It's dedicated to emotional hate, not rational reality.
2426   Reality   2024 Mar 26, 6:17pm  

AD says


Reality says


All those countries are facing negative demographic growth in recent years, so the pyramid scheme (in their entire pension systems; there will soon be more people withdrawing money than making new deposits) is about to be exposed.


there are ways to mitigate this without depending totally on immigration

new ways of caring for people like the elderly by using technology like AI-driven cameras ... just look at Wyze cameras which are well priced

also look at tracking smart watches and pendants that can be worn to detect falls

let alone modernize the economy to help lower costs such as for housing and food by promoting innovative ideas

.



I agree with what you are saying about the sustainability of a society without immigration propping up head-count. That's how normal people think. However, the globalist banksters are human-farmers farming human cattle! The ranchers of real animal sheep/cattle usually slaughter/cull a portion of the herd when the winter season is arriving, not because they can't afford to buy hay or corn or sugar to keep the herd alive, but because the reason they ranch the animals at all is their desire/plan to harvest the meat eventually! The most economic time to harvest is when the winter is arriving after the grass pasture is mostly eaten and wilting. It's much easier for them to start a new labor farm in Cuba, North Korea or Africa (where labor is much cheaper) than keeping the 3-decades old labor farm in Ukraine, Poland and Baltics going. After the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 1990's, the impoverished eastern Europeans were cattle farmed for their cheap labor (e.g. Ukrainians making and exporting all the switch-gears for cars; the reason why cars suddenly turned to touch screens after the start of the war in Ukraine, despite decades of ergonomic/user-interface studies proving that buttons and dials not taking eyes off the road are safer); provoking chaos and war in Ukraine killed off the middle class savers and pension account holders, so the globalist banksters don't have to pay back the money. The declining demographics is the equivalent of the grass pasture turning brown: indicating to the human-farmers it's time to slaughter the "cattle" and "sheep" for the harvest.

BTW, I would actually go one step further on the chaotic scheme of using immigration to make up for unborn western natives: it's a trojan horse designed to destroy western societies even faster! What societal super-structure works is dependent on the population. England itself had much more brutal law enforcement in the 1200's than in the 1900's, due to the simple fact that the homicide-per-100k population rate was 10x higher, indicating IQ being much lower in the 1200's than the 1900's. So mass importation of a population that is not compatible with current western societal super-structure is not going to work.

People need to be aware of this human-farming process that's been going on for thousands of years: the mysteries in the fall of Tyre, Athens, Carthage, Rome, Venice, the Crusade, the Northern Crusade, the rise and fall of Spain, the rise and fall of Poland can all be explained by the banking/human-farming cycles, as bankers moved from one pasture to another. Thoroughly destroying the previous pasture, killing account holders / liabilities and forcing fellow-travelers to move to new pasture seem to be the tradition. We live in a somewhat different time now after the widespread telling of the Holocaust story: for the first time in history, the story was not told from the victor's perspective like in the fall of Jericho (mass slaughtering all men, women, children and all live-stock, as an allegedly God-ordained act) but from the victims' perspective . . . and we have the further knowledge that those sociopaths/psychopaths shoving hapless Jewish/middle-class bank account holders onto cattle cars to be exterminated were later on systematically slaughtered by allied soldiers, so that the pay to the Nazi criminals-against-humanity didn't leave the banks either.

In a Judeo-Christian-Islam religious society, or any other traditional religious society, there is a natural tendency towards idiocracy: the relatively dumb tend to take up the call to reproduce more readily than the "smarter" (usually also more depressed/hesitant). For example, "Palestinians"/descendants of biblical Jews tend to reproduce much faster than descendants of European Jews; even among descendants of European Jews, the religious Jews far out-reproduce the rest. Historically, in order to avoid a complete degeneracy into "idiocracy" (watch the intro sequence of the movie "Idiocracy"), the historical solution seems to be periodical mass culling of the herd! Today we live in a reality of much faster information transmission. There has to be a better way of encouraging smarter people to reproduce more instead of mass-slaughtering millions of people! The English experience between 1200 - 1900 shows that in a long period of relative peace, gradual improving of population intelligence lowering crime rate through commerce is possible.
2427   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 27, 8:46am  

Just curious if those of you who believe Islam is a religion of violence can explain this?

🇮🇱 Have you ever heard of a group of Islamic terrorists, who claim their goal is to establish an Islamic caliphate, apologize to the state responsible for all the destabilization in the Middle East?

Weird right? pic.twitter.com/DV70AfQPFP

— Censored Men (@CensoredMen) March 22, 2024


https://www.newsweek.com/isis-fighters-regret-attacking-israel-apologize-defense-minister-591020
2428   The_Deplorable   2024 Mar 27, 2:46pm  

NuttBoxer says

" https://www.newsweek.com/isis-fighters-regret-attacking-israel-apologize-defense-minister-591020 "

From the link, quoting Moshe Yaalon, former Israeli Defense Minister:

"There was one case recently where Daesh opened fire and apologized," Ya'alon said, using the Arabic-language acronym for ISIS, according to The Times of Israel. Yaalon did not specify how or when this apology took place and his representatives have declined to comment on his statement."

I am assuming here that the apology came from Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton - the founders, financers, arm suppliers and trainers of ISIS. Right?
2429   richwicks   2024 Mar 27, 4:20pm  

The_Deplorable says

NuttBoxer says


" https://www.newsweek.com/isis-fighters-regret-attacking-israel-apologize-defense-minister-591020 "

From the link, quoting Moshe Yaalon, former Israeli Defense Minister:

"There was one case recently where Daesh opened fire and apologized," Ya'alon said, using the Arabic-language acronym for ISIS, according to The Times of Israel. Yaalon did not specify how or when this apology took place and his representatives have declined to comment on his statement."

I am assuming here that the apology came from Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton - the founders, financers, arm suppliers and trainers of ISIS. Right?


Woah there! It's a CONSPIRACY theory to say the US created ISIS to fight on behalf of the United States and Israel against Syria, and then was deployed everywhere from Libya to the Philippines.

Even though it was.
2430   Patrick   2024 Mar 27, 5:01pm  

I believe that the CIA also deployed ISIS to attack the US on 9/11.

So the attackers were mostly Saudi, and were true believers in extremist Islam, but as in Moscow, they were controlled by forces they did not understand.
2431   AmericanKulak   2024 Mar 27, 11:05pm  

NuttBoxer says

Just curious if those of you who believe Islam is a religion of violence can explain this?



🇮🇱 Have you ever heard of a group of Islamic terrorists, who claim their goal is to establish an Islamic caliphate, apologize to the state responsible for all the destabilization in the Middle East?

Weird right? pic.twitter.com/DV70AfQPFP

— Censored Men (CensoredMen) March 22, 2024


https://www.newsweek.com/isis-fighters-regret-attacking-israel-apologize-defense-minister-591020


That's easy. ISIS fears Israel and didn't want to take on Muh Mighty Lion Bashar Savior of the World on at the same time as the IDF.
2432   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Mar 28, 6:34am  

The point I'm making is if Islam is an extremist cult, and Isis is as extreme as Muslims get, explain the apology to Israel, the country they would logically hate the most.
2433   socal2   2024 Mar 28, 8:42am  

NuttBoxer says

The point I'm making is if Islam is an extremist cult, and Isis is as extreme as Muslims get, explain the apology to Israel, the country they would logically hate the most.


JFC - you are going on and on based on a single random comment from an Israeli claiming ISIS apologized over something a few years ago?

Probably just some bravado from the IDF to say even the worst Islamist retards are smart enough to not pick a fight with Israel.

Too bad the Islamist Hamas retards and international Leftist Jew haters didn’t get the message.
2434   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 8, 9:44am  

"Death to America! We live in one of the rottennest countries on Earth!"

2436   gabbar   2024 Apr 9, 4:50pm  

Check out the twitter posts of the Mayor of Dearborn, Michigan

2438   Patrick   2024 Apr 15, 11:41pm  

https://jameshowardkunstler.substack.com/p/the-beauty-parlors-full-of-sailors


Let’s get real on Islam. Its core principle is to exterminate the humans on this planet who are not of Islam. Islam has been pissed-off at Western Civ since the Crusades, its animus renewed in 1683, when Islam’s advance into Europe was halted at the gates of Vienna, and then again in modern times when Islam got pushed around because Western Civ wanted its oil. Islam is overrunning Europe again and penetrating the USA through our southern border. Islam means business. It wants to wreck us, kill us, and take our stuff. And it dearly, sorely, wants to deep-six Israel, which Islam contemptuously refer to as “the Zionist entity,” as if it were some crypto-insectile space alien.
2439   richwicks   2024 Apr 17, 6:15pm  

gabbar says







Oh, you mean our government who imported all these people after they blew up their countries in the last 20 years, MIGHT not be a good government?

I know how hard it is to draw a connection to the entity that is blowing up the fucking middle east, costing trillions to do it, then turning RIGHT AROUND to invite them in to invade this nation who have NO DESIRE to assimilate, MAYBE, possibly, just I know it's an outside chance, but maybe this government doesn't give a fuck about you or anybody. Maybe they're just sociopathic criminals.

Maybe I'm not thinking properly here... Hmmm. I'll need some help with this, where have I gone off the rails?

But anyhow, our government - they're definitely right about Israel, they're totally correct to support it 100% no matter what they do, and to give them billions of dollars every year. THERE they are right. Israel is a good government, and although they have segregated roads and make war with all their neighbors, and bribe our politicians, and blackmail them like Jeffrey Epstein, they're a good and decent government.

MAYBE these people protesting don't hate "America", maybe they just hate the US government, and why wouldn't they? The question I have is why don't you? They are more American than you are, at least they have identified the enemy.
2443   richwicks   2024 Apr 20, 9:47pm  

gabbar says






This is just American propaganda. Can't source any of it, nothing in Arabic, tired of this nonsense. They can and do regularly put in any "quote" they want, and people just uncritically accept or discount it. If you can't source it, ignore it.

Maybe this IS what they said, but I have enough experience with CAMERA blatantly lying, and they can't be "corrected" on their "mistake". I've seen people attempt that as well. They don't care if they're reflecting accuracy, they happily mistranslate, or just lie. You know how our news media is with what Trump says? CAMEREA is worse, and they provide all the translations to our "media".

Nobody cares about getting it fucking right, so again and again I see the same nonsense year after year. No way to confirm it, no way to verify it, no source of the translation or the original source, no video, year after year after year and in the rare event that somebody DOES track down the quote, finds it, discovers it was taken out of context or goes through the ENORMOUS effort of proving it doesn't exist - nobody cares. They just get quoted again.
2444   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 20, 9:52pm  

"Fake quotes, unless they are vetted through the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Committee!"
2445   richwicks   2024 Apr 20, 10:32pm  

AmericanKulak says


"Fake quotes, unless they are vetted through the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Committee!"


What makes you believe they are true?

I can take those images, remove the text, and put anything in there. As long as it's incendiary and anti-semitic, you'll believe it, you might even pass it around. That's how simple it is to do today.

I spent CONSIDERABLE time trying to find reliable sources of information in the 1990's. You'll never do that.

The only reason 99% of people here know Ukraine had a CIA coup, is I've proved it multiple times, repeated hundreds of times. If I wasn't here this board would be filled with "Slava Ukrainia" and "Putin Invaded Ukraine for no reason at all". It takes EFFORT to know what is going on, and I'm happy to share, but it only goes so far. You have the information now, you won't pass it on. It will blocked on Facebook and YouTube, you'll still use them and believe them. New sites show up all the time that aren't censored, you won't use them. You don't care if it's true or not.

If it's a lie or the truth, who cares? You don't. People don't feel a lick of responsibility to be correct, they don't care if they are passing on propaganda to engender support for a war. They don't worry if they are on the right or wrong side, they want to be on the easy side. Morality? What on Earth is that? If you were screaming about turning the Middle East to glass in 2005, you feel badly about that at all? No, I bet not. Do you care if you supported a mass starvation in Yemen? How about returning slavery to Libya? DEMOCRATS don't, it must be a good thing, Obama did it.

When I rant that I can't feel a connection to MOST people to the point they seem INHUMAN to me, robots, I'm not kidding. This is not a pleasant or enjoyable place to be. I wish my stupid 30 year old fucktard self didn't want to know. Once you see it, you'll never unsee it. Today you can't discuss it, you are censored for it, "you're a Russian bot, a Putin bootlicker, a traitor, this that". "People" have no problem slandering you, for telling the truth. They can't explain why you're wrong. You think that it's just LIBERALS that get frustrated and storm off when you confront a propagandized belief in their head about some nonsense they are "certain" of because "everybody knows". "Everybody knows Saddam Hussein was working on nuclear weapons, what are you, some terrorist sympathizer"? You mean the Saddam Hussein we were allies with for 8 years in the 1980s? "Well of course we found the weapons of mass destruction program in Iraq, didn't you hear it on Fox?" - yeah, I did, that was the nuclear material left over from the bombing of the unfinished Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981 under Operation Opera. Did Fox news report on that in 2006 when they claimed they "finally found proof"? No, of course not. They were a, what, billion dollar organization they didn't have the resources? NOBODY remember the bombing of the Iraqi plant? I did, I was fucking 10 when it happened.

Isn't fucking wonderful to be educated? I know all this shit, not a fucking thing I can do with it, can't even talk about it. Oh, my little kid is gifted! How wonderful!!! What I wouldn't do to drop 20 IQ points. Being "smart" fucking sucks.
2446   HeadSet   2024 Apr 21, 6:44am  

richwicks says

What I wouldn't do to drop 20 IQ points.

My cousin's peach moonshine can help you with that.
2447   Reality   2024 Apr 21, 8:42am  

@richwicks,

Please don't feel frustrated or pessimistic. I agree with most of what you said in the posts that I had the pleasure of reading the last few weeks; I only detected one error and didn't feel like pointing out (as I was either traveling or working): Jamie Dimon is not Jewish (but of Greek ancestry); the one who said ". . . doing God's work" was the boss of Goldman Sachs, Lloyd Blankfein, who is Jewish. The error is actually quite understandable because there seems to be a media campaign in recent years to demonize Jamie Dimon (possibly due to his non-Jewish ancestry, which likely contributed to his relatively risk-avoidant banking style, which is quite in contrast to the usual bankers claiming to be Jewish that tend to have voracious appetites for risk as they expect to be bailed out by fellow members of the "tribe" in critical government positions when things go wrong), and even the google image for Lloyd Blankfein shows Jamie Dimon in the center of the image instead of the man (Lloyd Blankfein) who actually engineered the GS alum capture of the government a decade or two ago.

High IQ people do have a higher depression rate than the average population. However, the current state of affairs is actually not bad in comparison to previous instances when the world/banking cycle was in comparable stage. The real issue is human farming (i.e. farming people like cattle or other livestocks). Every species tries to provide for their offspring, thereby creating an opportunity for being farmed by others, e.g.: water-melon accumulated water in a desert environment for its seeds (or rewarding animals for eating the fruit and spreading seats), ends up being farmed by people for the fruit; hen lay nutritious eggs for the fertilized egg inside, resulting in being farmed by human; cattle produces milk for calves, also resulting in being farmed by human; likewise for bees and honey. Human beings likewise build up resources and wealth for offsprings and for themselves (to fend off seasonal famine), and likewise are susceptible to being farmed. The most obvious human-farming operation is taxation. However, people tend to resist high tax rates. So wars between neighboring states / feudal-lords were carried out to loot each other's peasants at rate higher than tolerable tax rates. After people see through that, the next step is usually bureaucracy: centralized coinage removes competitive coins from the market so the government can mint under-weight coins to pay for the bureaucracy, then that monetary corruption leads to massive corruption in the bureaucracy, then rich and powerful bureaucrats who enrich through corruption (every bureaucrat with enough power eventually does) gets harvested periodically as they are wealth concentrators just like cattle concentrates calories from the grass only to be slaughtered by farmers for meat. Usually the farmer doing the harvesting is the emperor, killing his top ministers for the latter's accumulated wealth. Every 70-200 years, it's the imperial family's turn (and the general population's turn) to be harvested by massive foreign invasion or domestic revolutions. That's how human history repeated itself for most of Eurasia . . . The destruction of Eastern-European middle-class during the Russian Revolution, and the destruction of Central/West-European Jewish and non-Jewish middle-class during the rise and fall of the Nazi regime were all part of the human-farming process.

The Old Testament is actually a classic book on Human Farming: the family of the patriarch Jacob were not sheep-herders but human-herders; the purported Moses was actually the Egyptian Pharaoh Akhenaten, who invented the monotheistic religion in order to take the tax revenue and wealth from previously existing Egyptian polytheistic religious institutions. Moses/Akhenaten however did not write the Old Testament. The author of OT/Torah was not Moses, but Ezra, an agent sent by the Persian Empire to build a buffer state in today's Palestine/Israel in order to fend off Egyptians. Since the locals were mostly Egyptian exiles, a founding myth was necessary to control the locals. Notice Ezra wrote that local "Jews" were marrying other tribes (and he was outraged by that, just like his Moses was outraged by golden calf in his story), so the idea that Babylonian King Nebuchadnezzar (II, the Great) having carried off all Jews was false; most Jews had stayed on as farmers even if Nabuchadnezzar had carried off any thin crust of the priest class; Ezra was simply creating a "Return" story in order to rob local Jews/Semites of their land, similar to the Zionist pseudo-religious "return" story since the 1870's. There is no archaelogical evidence of either the biblical Kingdom of Israel or Kingdom of Judea, despite nearly two centuries of digging and having found many other artifacts relating to other aspects of the bible. Ezra's story regarding the two kingdoms was likely borrowed from the history of the Upper and Lower Egypt, just like he borrowed the Creation story from Zoroastrianism (then dominating in Persia), and borrowed from the history of Akhenaten for the character Moses. All those stories were meant to serve the key element: the Promised Land, the land of milk and honey (with the bees and the cattle being the local human population). The stories of Promise and mass-slaughtering locals (already living in the land) were deliberately repetitive, as a way of justifying the taking over of the land already occupied by Jews and other semites that already lived in the land when Ezra and his followers arrived there, as some kind of God's mandate. The two separate repeat promises (to Isaac and to Jacob) also served a political/tactical purpose: when facing stiff opposition, the followers of Ezra can say the Promised Land only included what was promised to Jacob (with the wider area free to be used by his brother Esau's offspring), but once that is achieved they can refer to the earlier Promise to Isaac: both Jacob and Esau are Isaac's sons, so the Promised Land is actually the much wider area.

It is a religion for invading and conquering an area, pretending the newly arriving followers are "returning" to land promised by God, and systematically expanding the conquest in stages. Given the current biological diversity in the "tribal" make-up, it's quite clear that just about anyone in the world narcissistic enough can embrace the religion and teach their kids to treat other people as cattle. Bankersters love the idea because such narcissistic people are very good tools for concentrating wealth then getting themselves slaughtered (thereby abandoning their account balances to the banks), just like Banksters promoted wokism in Germany in the 1920's then promoted the Nazis to slaugher them, then the allied soldiers to slaughter Nazis.

Humanity has come a long way from Ezra's original promotion of slaughtering "all their men, women, children and livestocks" to Islam borrowing almost all elements of Judism but allowing conversion or paying a tax to avoid being slaughtered . . . to today's technology allowing individuals like you and me pointing out the frauds and human farming process. It's actually a remarkable progress, despite taking some 2500 years to reach where we are today. Fundamentally, it's not even in the interest of the human-farmers to let the human-farming process continue uninhibited: concentration of power would turn what can be a repeating Prisoner's Dilemma into a one-shot Prison'ers Dilemma, which tends to produce less than optimal results for all involved. So there is indeed a incentive towards a more benign world when everyone is in the know. Please don't feel discouraged in what you are doing; being optimistic might make it easier for your voice to be heard.
2448   Patrick   2024 Apr 21, 10:30am  

Great summary!

@Reality
2449   Reality   2024 Apr 21, 8:29pm  

Thank you, Patrick.
2450   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 22, 12:41am  

Reality says


There is no archaelogical evidence of either the biblical Kingdom of Israel or Kingdom of Judea,

That's not right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele (Kingdom of Israel, repeats a story from 2 Kings)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele (hostile evidence from Egyptian authorities)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurkh_Monoliths (hostile evidence, a fight with King Ahab of Israel, first mention of Arabs)

https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-artifacts/the-tel-dan-inscription-the-first-historical-evidence-of-the-king-david-bible-story/ (more hostile evidence, a defeat inflicted on Judah led by a King of the House of David)

The Marcionite and Gnostic heresies about the Old Testament I leave for later or others.

If this theory is true, it's a refutation of the New Testament as well, since:

"This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham" - Matthew 1:1
"Listen: You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you will name him Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David. He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and his kingdom will never end." - Luke 1:31-33

referring to:

"When the time comes for you to die, I will raise up your descendant, one of your own sons, to succeed you, and I will establish his kingdom. He will build a house for my name, and I will make his dynasty permanent. I will become his father and he will become my son. When he sins, I will correct him with the rod of men and with wounds inflicted by human beings. But my loyal love will not be removed from him as I removed it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will stand before me permanently; your dynasty will be permanent." 2 Samuel 7:13-16

Another reference to Jesus being of the House of David (There are many):
“Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, the offspring of David, as preached in my gospel” (2 Timothy 2:8).

There's a Psalm about David's offspring too I believe.
2451   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 22, 1:06am  

OT PROPHECY
“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel ("God is with Us")” (Isaiah 7:14).

NT FULFILLMENT
“The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

OT PROPHECY
"And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel” (Genesis 3:15).

NT FULFILLMENT
“The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work” (1 John 3:8).

There's a ton of these, with the 2 Samuel 7 and Matthew being the most important and best known.

Point being the OT sets up the NT. If the OT is some complex political creation of Akhenaton and then the King of Persia many centuries later, then what is the NT?

Is the NT valid is if refers to a False OT written by Ezra, an Agent of Persia for a political purpose?

Why do the Gospels have Jesus, and the Epistles of Paul constantly referencing, paraphrasing, or directly quoting the OT, both commandments and prophecy? Why is Jesus upbraiding the Pharisees that they don't understand the spirit of the Law from the OT if the OT itself was merely a political confabulation?

Example of Jesus quoting the OT:
But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” - Matthew 4:4

Refering to:
And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD. - Deuteronomy 8:3
2452   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 22, 1:08am  

I do get banking and credit coming out of Babylon.

It's a huge misunderstanding that coinage proceeded banking; banking began with crediting bushels of grain or it's equivalent, THEN coinage was invented long after and bank credit represented metal coins.

Then there's the whole idea of Magic I heard from Styx, and he's onto something. Basically "Magic" used "Royally" (by Authorities) is a euphemism for political/propaganda tactics, of the type referred in the works of Machiavelli or Sun Tsu.
2453   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 22, 10:13am  

Reality says

However, the current state of affairs is actually not bad in comparison to previous instances when the world/banking cycle was in comparable stage.


There's no comparison. The money supply has never, ever been this centralized and this inflated. By the law of boom-bust we're setting up for a bust that will wipe out everything.

As to the OT story, maybe you feel like providing a link? Maybe not.. I can tell as someone who attended a Christian college, and grew up in the church, it sounds about as realistic as aliens bringing Jesus to America(Mormon's). So naturally any conclusions you derive from that would be faulty...

And before you say my opinion is based on my tribe, I disagree with most of the American church on a number of levels.
2454   Reality   2024 Apr 22, 10:30am  

@AmericanKulak

When I said "no archaeological evidence," I meant physical evidence such as palace, burial tomb, workshop, etc., not 3 stone tablets found in different locations spanning the decade or so time surrounding 1870 (when Rothschild banking launched Zionism to exploit long-suffering European Jews) with lettering like "YSRR" to be interpreted by alleged "experts" to mean "Israel" (in a new "academic field" that was flooded with money and gentlemen in search of biblical matching and matching to Homerian epics earlier, many of which later turned out to be false and/or unfounded interepretations) or a stone tablet found in 1993 to have the lettering "DWT" by diggers funded by Israeli government to interpret it to mean the biblical House of David. We are talking about an alleged historical kingdom that at one time fielded 2000 war chariots! It's doubtful any kingdom in the vicinity at the time besides the Hittites and Egyptians could field 2000 war chariots at once. Where are the archaeological evidence for the workshops making the chariots? or even parts to the war chariots.

New Testament obviously had authors deliberately matching "prophesies" from the Old Testament. The 5th Century BC Ezra (agent of Persia) was the author of Torah (telling stories from the birth of the universe to circa 12th century BC; the Creation story was clearly borrowed from Zoroastrianism then dominating in Persia; the Moses story matching Egyptian Pharoah Akhenarten's exile dated to 14th century BC), which is the first 5 books of (what later would be called) the Old Testament; the other books in the Old Testament had various authorships by Ezra or his followers between 5th century BC to 1st Century BC, before the New Testament came into existence in the 1st to 3rd century AD/CE. If not for Paul's successful marketing to Gentiles, Christianity wouldn't be Christianity but more like any one of the other numerous historical false Messiahs in Jewish history, all of whom tried to have their deeds matching the Old Testament prophesies. Even hundreds of years later, Muslim scholars try to match deeds of Mohammed to Old Testament. The small time Jewish false messiahs routinely popped up as late as the 18th century. Even after promoting the idea "God is dead" by authors like Nietzsche, the banksters in control of publishing and media still promoted the messianic Zionism pseudo-religion and other war criminals to force European Jews onto the "pilgrim" journey to be plundered (while being plunderers at times themselves).

I agree with you that banking and credit may have long preceded metal coin money. Bulk units of grain and live cattle may have been unit of count in transactions, and consequently credit and banking; the idea of seed grain can yield return is quite straight-forward, as is a cow can give birth to more cattle. The abuse of credit banking may well have led to the circa 1300-1200BC late Bronz Age collapse. Trade and exchange moving to metal (electrum, a naturally-occuring gold-silver alloy) may have enabled the society to sustain exchange, just like during the post-Roman Empire collapse, western Europe moved to silver money after a while during the so-called "the Dark Ages" (which was actually not dark, but that's a different topic). The 6th century BC Croesus "invention" (likely invented by metal workers/shops but the king monopolizing it in his domain) of coinage allowed the ruler charging Seigniorage, which laid the base for the founding of the Persian Empire, a much larger entity than city states that existed previously. The rise of commercial activity shortly after the invention of coinage (before massive debasement by imperial monopolistic coins) may well explain the sudden emergence of science and arts achievements all over Eurasia during 5th Century BC to 3rd century BC. Ezra was roughly contemporary to Socrates, the Buddha and Confucious.

I also agree that "Magic" used by rulers (and their advisors) are/were similar to FDR's "brain trust" (the crowd that made the Great Depression worse, eventually leading to WWII killing millions of bank account holders). While SunTsu advocated avoiding war and efficient use of force if war is unavoidable, as he was relatively early in the commerce/credit/war/consolidation/corruptoin/splintering cycle as there were still numerous City States balancing each other, eventually as states consolidate, men like Machiavelli and ShangYang (the man responsible for the rise of Chin in east Asia as a fascist state similar to Prussia in German context) emerge to advocate impoverishing the people in order to build a strong military to conquer all other states. They seem to treat international politics like a game of Civilization (Syd Meir's classic), without ever wondering what to do after conquering the entire known world as life doesn't end like in a computer game of conquest. Machiavelli himself was relatively lucky in that he never amounted to much after publishing his book the Prince advocating a police state, whereas ShangYang was eventually hunted by his own fascist police state and had his entire family killed after his prime-ministership became a potential threat to his king, but the legacy of his statecraft eventually led to the consolidation of continental east Asia. Widespread over-education in the late stages of commercial prosperity seems to produce many of those threats to society and threats to themselves.
2455   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 22, 11:30am  

Reality says


I meant physical evidence such as palace, burial tomb, workshop, etc., not 3 stone tablet


We can do that too. In fact, the Biblical minimalism has been on the backfoot because they keep finding more and more extensive buildings at earlier times where the inhabitants of the region (not just Judah or Israel) have been shown to have 2-partition walled cities, massive admin complexes, etc. going back to near 1000BC. And there's destruction layers at about the right time for... the battles reported in the Bible. Minimalists were claiming Kingdoms of the region was just a warlord with a few hundred guys with spears spread out over several hilltop villages. The scale of the towns and their defenses make that untenable.

I'll share some interesting stuff later.

Reality says


The abuse of credit banking may well have led to the circa 1300-1200BC late Bronz Age collapse.

Agreed. And I enjoy your theorizing along these points. I would say that volcanic activity/climate shifts may have contributed to making the interest payments impossible (as well as constant invasions from hungry bands, in Mesopotamia the salinity of the soil, etc.) or revenue starved polities tried to skip scheduled Jubillees.

Reality says


New Testament obviously had authors deliberately matching "prophesies" from the Old Testament.

Okay, so you're not an "orthodox" (in the sense of commonly held understanding of historical Christendom or Judaism, not as in "Eastern Orthodox") believer, or not a believer at all.

For some reason I thought you were, so apologies for boring you with Biblical proofs.
2456   AmericanKulak   2024 Apr 22, 11:38am  

Reality says


"the Dark Ages" (which was actually not dark, but that's a different topic).

When you go from 50,000 person cities without walls to having only one or two on the whole continent (and those only possible because their pre-collapse infrastructure like sewer and water intact, like Cologne or Naples) to an assortment of walled villages and hilltop fortress towns more often chosen for their defensibility more than convenient location to fertile land... it's a collapse. Exactly what you'd expect after a Zombie apocalypse - people abandoning cities for more defensible locations. That means civil society breakdown.

Bristol, the second largest city in England, had less than 10,000 people in 1200. Or about the population of Florence, Oregon. London was 30-40k tops. Almost all London today outside the City was slowly built out starting in the 1500s. Westminister was in the furthest greenbelt of London when built.

The opposite is true: Golden-Silver age Rome was so large and spread out, that the modern suburbs of Rome were inside the ancient city borders.

There was a brief resurgence around 900-1200 but that was retarded by the Northman invasions and absolutely endemic warfare between nobility. It was the Year without a Summer and the Black Death that whacked out and consolidated the nobility and their holdings into larger polities, rather than a myriad of minor barons fighting over tiny slices of land. The houses that did survive inherited more land and wealth through deaths, and with those resources could impose more restrictions on their underlings, one of which was requiring them to get permission before they started an armed conflict.

From Commerce to Societal/Government complexity to Literacy/Literary Output to Size of Armies to Equipment of the average soldier to Scope of Authority to evidence of large population ... there was a huge drop in Western Europe between ~400 to about 900AD.
2457   fdhfoiehfeoi   2024 Apr 22, 1:17pm  

Reality says

When I said "no archaeological evidence," I meant physical evidence such as palace, burial tomb, workshop, etc.,


I assume this is in reference to the Old Testament. See Noah's Ark, the walls of Jericho, Sodom and Gomorrah, Solomon, Sennacherib, Shroud of Turin, and the final resting place of the Pharaoh who released the Hebrews. There are more...

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